Jump to content
Yari

Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

Recommended Posts

How about making Kamui be unconcerned about his Hoshido siblings if he goes through a route hostile to them? Like when Hinoka dies, her death means nothing to him.

That would do more harm than good to his character.

The interesting thing about Kamui having to chose between two sides, is the fact he geniuely cares about both sides, and also the fact that no matter which path he takes someone he cares is going to get hurt. So, in the end, no matter which country he sides with, he not's going to get what he wants, and will always suffer for his choice.

Really, I wish they would explored that a little more, it would do wonders for Kamui's character.

Edited by Water Mage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would do more harm than good to his character.

The interesting thing about Kamui having to chose between two sides, is the fact he geniuely cares about both sides, and also the fact that no matter which path he takes someone he cares is going to get hurt. So, in the end, no matter which country he sides with, he not's going to get what he wants, and will always suffer for his choice.

Really, I wish they would explored that a little more, it would do wonders for Kamui's character.

The challenging thing for me is making his concern for the Hoshido siblings sound reasonable. I'm not adopted to the best of my knowledge, but honestly, where does orange hair come from? so I can't really relate to the feeling of being concerned about blood-related people I've never met. Mikoto is somewhat understandable because she sacrifices herself for Kamui and Kamui likely grew up without a mother figure. The others are harder to justify, at least to the extent that Kamui is devastated if any of them die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would do more harm than good to his character.

The interesting thing about Kamui having to chose between two sides, is the fact he geniuely cares about both sides, and also the fact that no matter which path he takes someone he cares is going to get hurt. So, in the end, no matter which country he sides with, he not's going to get what he wants, and will always suffer for his choice.

Really, I wish they would explored that a little more, it would do wonders for Kamui's character.

Even if Kamui cares little to nothing for his Hoshido siblings, you can still frame him warring on his birthplace (or more) as a stain on him. Have his siblings curse his name and not take it back. Have someone like Orochi tell him he's not even fit to carry his mother's blood. Especially if he still plays a role in Mikoto's death, knowingly (as in Kamui himself assassinating Mikoto) or not.

Even if Kamui succeeds at what he does, that doesn't mean the audience has to see it as a good thing.

Edited by Alazen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly for a fanfic, I really wanna fix Camilla's character. Because while I despise her, I think a good reason is also because of shoddy writing.

Any ideas? Well, besides making her dote over others besides Kamui... maybe toning down her extreme, extreme love for Kamui would help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if Kamui succeeds at what he does, that doesn't mean the audience has to see it as a good thing.

But then you risk Kamui being unsympathetic. Flawed protagonists, or villain protagonists can be likeable or appreciated in spite of themselves (see; Walter White) but if they lack the necessary flair, they're just a jerk the audience doesn't want to watch, let alone succeed.

Honestly for a fanfic, I really wanna fix Camilla's character. Because while I despise her, I think a good reason is also because of shoddy writing.

Any ideas? Well, besides making her dote over others besides Kamui... maybe toning down her extreme, extreme love for Kamui would help.

Toning down the affection is one thing, but more important is giving her more character traits and motivations besides being with Kamui. Make her smart, make her driven, give her a role in the story that let's her use her talents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Toning down the affection is one thing, but more important is giving her more character traits and motivations besides being with Kamui. Make her smart, make her driven, give her a role in the story that let's her use her talents.

Aye. I wanted to bring stuff about her past into light and build off of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But then you risk Kamui being unsympathetic. Flawed protagonists, or villain protagonists can be likeable or appreciated in spite of themselves (see; Walter White) but if they lack the necessary flair, they're just a jerk the audience doesn't want to watch, let alone succeed.

It depends. I wouldn't call Arthas Menetheil a sympathetic character, since his first game with its expansion depicted him as a brutal degenerate who embraced servitude for himself and his subjects. And all considered, I wouldn't call him poorly done as a character.

Edited by Alazen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends. I wouldn't call Arthas Menetheil a sympathetic character, since his first game with its expansion depicted him as a brutal degenerate who embraced servitude for himself and his subjects.

Hm? I think he's meant to be a tragic character, someone who intended to do great things but damned himself (literally) by his flaws (desire for vengeance). After Frostmourne takes his soul, he's not really himself anymore.

Edited by NekoKnight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He would be a tragic character in the way Macbeth is then. You can see how he ticks, but you're not supposed to see it as a good thing for him to succeed at what he does. And Arthas serving Ner'zhul wasn't all down to Frostmourne taking his soul considering how the lord of the dead's magical hold over his knight wore off through TFT's Undead Campaign.

Edited by Alazen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't call Macbeth much of a tragic character...he was more ambitious than anything and that corrupted him to the core at the end, tragic but expected. Arthas had a noble goal but made terrible decisions that led him down a certain path...

It all depends how you want a story to go; creating conflicts out of thin air is easier than giving them a reason for existing.

Edited by Fyras4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arthas was a weak person. As a Paladin he was a spoiled and self-righteous thug. That he went around making ''hard choices'' (only one of which was remotely warranted, and even then he botched it) doesn't excuse him as a person. It might make him somewhat sympathetic, but that doesn't mean he was really respectable. If anything, he became more respectable as a Death Knight considering how he did better when it came to asking his allies for their take on things and actually listening to them (among other differences).

Edited by Alazen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I've got some stuff to post. I was hoping to save it all for one massive post, but it's taking a long time and the post itself will be too long (at least I think it would), so I'm going to post what I have so far. If you guys could tell me what's good, what needs to be removed and what is okay but could be improved, that'd be great.

Ancient/Pre-History

Creation of the World

[spoiler=According to the Hoshidan Religion]

In the beginning, the material world was an uninhabitable, formless wasteland. Devoid of life, shrouded in darkness and incomparable to the world we know today. However, millions of years ago, the spirit known as Kōryū, the most powerful and respected spirit, took an interest in the material world. It crossed the boundary that divided the material and spirit world and became the Dragon of Light. With his incredible power, he banished the darkness and brought light and shape to the world. Seeking to further improve his design, he created four beings in his likeness; Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu, who created the seasons and the materials that would make up the world.

Seiryū the Azure Dragon created Spring and Wood

Suzaku the Vermillion Bird created Summer and Fire

Byakko the White Tiger created Autumn and all the worlds Metals

And Genbu the Black Tortoise created Winter and Water

Once this task was completed, Kōryū brought eleven of his closest advisors in the spirit world across the boundary, imbued them with his powers of creation and charged them with bringing life to the world. The twelve great spirits created the animals of the world in the likeness of their physical forms and personality, which reflected their natures as spirits:

The Rat God, who was intelligent and inquisitive, but manipulative and ambitious, created the worlds Rodents with the Rabbit God

The Ox God, who was hardworking and dependable, but stubborn and naive, created the worlds Bovine with the Goat God

The Tiger God, who was passionate and daring, but impulsive and rebellious, created the worlds Felidae

The Rabbit God, who was gracious and strong-willed, but cunning and ruthless, helped create the worlds Rodents with the Rat God

The Snake God, who was soft-spoken and wise, but vain and skeptical, created the worlds Reptiles

The Horse God, who was cheerful and quick-witted, but unreliable and fickle, created the worlds Equine

The Goat God, who was righteous and compassionate, but pessimistic and emotional, created the worlds Bovine with the Ox God

The Monkey God, who was innovative and self-assured, but arrogant and overconfident, created the worlds Primates

The Rooster God, who was dauntless and meticulous, but aggressive and uptight, created the worlds Avians

The Dog God, who was honest and loyal, but naive and untrusting, created the worlds Canidae

The Boar God, who was straightforward and gallant, but rough and hedonistic, created the worlds Suidae

And Kōryū created the world’s dragons, tasking them with the protection of the world while he himself swore to never interfere with his creation.

With life and form brought to the material world, spirits flocked on mass to be a part of it. Kōryū created bodies of clay and blood for these spirits, and the union of soul and body created the human race. However, the trauma of crossing the boundary between worlds was difficult for the lesser spirits to bear, and many lost their memories when merging with these clay constructs. To counteract this, these bodies were temporary and mortal, allowing the souls within to return to the spirit world upon its death and regain their memories.

[spoiler=According to the Nohrian Religion]

Officially, Huanglong created everything in the world by himself so that he’d have something to rule over. Unofficially, most Nohrians are atheists who believe that everything, even the dragons, came about through evolution.

[spoiler=What Actually Happened]

Kōryū and Huanglong are aliases of Anankos, who was the first dragon to exist by a massive margin, to the point that by the time the next four dragons (Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu) came into existence, he was already fully grown, but he never gave them an answer for how old he was or what his life was like before they existed. Anankos and the others did more or less shape the world into what it is today, but Anankos hadn't finished by the time the four symbol dragons came into being and empowered them so that they could take over for him. The Eleven Animal Gods weren't a thing, but they were the original animals that Anankos chose to preserve in the difficult and chaotic period of life’s early days as the basis for terrestrial life in the world (Genbu was the only one who bothered with aquatic life). Also, humans evolved naturally instead of being made from clay bodies inhabited by a spirit

The Dragon Wars

[spoiler=According to the Hoshidan Religion]
Time passed after Kōryū created the world and the early humans quickly mastered the landscapes that had been crafted, but this mastery eventually led to hubris, and man became convinced of their superiority. The Dark Dragons, who were jealous of the favoritism that Kōryū heaped upon the humans and mingled their blood with that of a powerful human family, granting them the ability to manipulate the foundations and elements of the world, manipulated these feelings.

The Dark Dragons, using the empowered humans as their puppets, brought war to the material realm. They quickly took over a large area of land, which was twisted and corrupted to reflect their evil nature. While the dragons waged war with each other, the peaceful humans were left at the mercy of their manipulated counterparts. With no other option, Kōryū broke his oath to remain passive mingled his blood with an equally powerful family in order to combat the Dark Dragon's puppets.

After thousands of years of war, the Dark Dragons were slain to the last and their human puppets driven back to their originally conquered land. With the rest of the world in ruins, Kōryū returned to the spirit world as penance for his failure to prevent the destruction and was followed by the Seasonal and Animal Gods after they had restored the world to it's original state, leaving the family empowered by Kōryū's blood and their subjects to defend the world and redeem their twisted counterparts.

[spoiler=According to the Nohrian Religion]
Long ago, the Dragons ruled the world under the tyrannical leadership of the Light Dragon Huanglong. When mankind first came into the world, Huanglong saw how quickly they adapted to the world and grew to fear their potential. Terrified that the humans would grow strong and challenge his rule, Huanglong and his armies conquered the early human tribes and forced them into servitude. This enslavement persisted for hundreds of thousands of years, until the Dark Dragons saw an opportunity to stage a coup against their ruler.

The Dark Dragons, who plotted and schemed in the shadows to overthrow Huanglong and take control of his kingdom, offered the human race an ultimatum; willing individuals could mate with them in order to produce hybrids that would be strong enough to fight the dragons on equal footing, or serve the dragons till the end of time. The Dark Dragons promised them that the Age of the Dragons would come to an end and that the Age of Man would take its place, with all the power and wealth of Huanglong's kingdom becoming theirs.

With no other choice but to trust the Dark Dragons, many humans took up their offer and within a century, thousands of humans were born with the power of the dragons. Their dark patrons taught them how to use these powers and the human quickly threw off the shackles of oppression and waged a war against the dragons. His worst fears fully realised, Huanglong ordered the dragons that remained loyal to him to produce similar hybrids in order to combat this new threat and the war was dragged into a bloody stalemate for millennia. Eventually, although Huanglong was driven into hiding and the dragons loyal to him were put to the sword, the loyalist hybrids triumphed over the rebellious forces and drove them back to Nohr, land of the Dark Dragons.

Unfortunately, the Dark Dragons were bitter over their defeat and blamed mankind for their coups failure. Angered by the betrayal of their kin and the Dark Dragons attempts to force them back into servitude, the humans turned upon them and killed them to the last, but not before so many of the hybrids, many of whom were slain in the war, died off that only one family remained. Declaring that no human would know the agonies of slavery again, the last remaining hybrid family was unanimously declared rulers of the nation and have led the free humans ever since.

[spoiler=According to Suzaku, Seiryu, Genbu and Byakko]

None of them remember how or why the war started, having forgotten the events in their old age or missed them due to having slept through them, but all of them have different accounts of the dragon and human prosperity when the war started.

-Genbu believes things went down as they are described (dragons, then humans, then war, but the details are lost on him).

-Suzaku remembers that the dragons were already warring with each other before the humans showed up

-Byakko thinks that the dragons had mostly died off before the humans even showed up

-Seiryū is dead by the time the story takes place, having become a spirit to avoid insanity. However, he fathered a son who knows that there was a war, but nothing else.

[spoiler=What Actually Happened]

As it turns out, there were actually two wars, although the first one technically wasn’t a war as much as it was a series of simultaneous psychotic murdering sprees. The first one occurred very early in the history of the dragons, when the first generation started succumbing to their destructive urges. Since Dragons only start going mad once they’ve lived a very long time and dragons get stronger with age, the ‘war’ mostly consisted of the older dragons murdering anything they could get their hands on until Anankos realised they were beyond saving and slaughtered them. This led to an enforced policy of Dragons leaving their bodies behind once they started showing signs of madness and upset Anankos so much that he swore off violence forever.

The Dark Dragons started the Second Dragon War in the early days of humanities existence. When humanity came about, Anankos took an interest in them because of his ability to see possible futures and how a lot of them involved humanity being the dominant species in the world. The reasons for the Dark Dragons starting the war is mostly them living terrible lives, including but not limited to:

-The Dark and Light Dragons are descendants of Anankos, but the Light Dragons are the ‘favoured children’ and get more attention then them, because the Dark Dragons are more emotional and aggressive than their counterparts, with Anankos being more invested in a completely different species just rubbing it in.

-Because of their powers and nature (such as having natural proficiency with dark magic), the land that was given them became tainted and started dying, making it nearly impossible for them to cultivate adequate food supplies, while the Light Dragons land prospered in their presence, making vegetation grow much faster and life flocked to their realm, giving them plenty of food.

-The Dark Dragons, due to a combination of the influence of dark magic and their more aggressive nature, succumbed to insanity much faster than any other ‘breeds’ of dragon. Imagine if a human started showing symptoms of Alzheimer’s in their mid-twenties and you have a good idea of what that was like for them.

-Because of their shitty genes and typically aggressive personalities, no other Dragon types were interested in mating with them, which forced them into incest in order to keep their population even somewhat stable. Of course, the rampant incest alienated them from other types of dragons as well as Anankos and caused their dark magic/mental/insanity problems to become even worse.

These factors led to the Dark Dragons slowly sliding into extinction and left them feeling angry and resentful in an existential ‘what did we do to deserve this’ kind of way. With the emergence of humans and Anankos’ subsequent favouritism of them, they decided that if they were going to die, than they were going to take everything else with them. To do this, they enslaved the large majority of humans and manipulated them into believing that Anankos was responsible. In addition to this, many Dark Dragons started taking human mates in order to produce hybrids that possessed the power of Dragons. Anankos tried asking them to release the humans, but they used his refusal to fight to their advantage so they could carry on with what they were doing.

Having run out of options, Anankos asked the Light Dragons to ‘take care of them’. The Light Dragons, who almost universally despised the Dark Dragons for their previously mentioned issues (despite the fact that they had no control over those things), were more than happy to oblige and started raising their own army of humans and hybrids with the intent of killing them to the last.

The Dark Dragons initially had the advantage due to their greater number of human and hybrid warriors, but as the longer the war lasted, more and more previously neutral parties were dragged into the conflict with the majority of them siding against the Dark Dragons. In addition to this, the Dark and Light Dragons who chose not to fight were either forcibly conscripted or killed. The result was a bloody stalemate that lasted for decades with no end in sight.

Horrified by what had happened, Anankos took a human family into his private dimension (Which would later become Touma) and, when the mother of the family was pregnant, he had her drink potions that used his own blood as the main ingredient. The resulting child was born with all the power and abilities of a half-dragon and Anankos create a blade that nullified the powers of dragons and physically weakened them with its presence. The child was taken into an Astral Realm where time passed at a much faster rate, allowing Anankos and the child’s parents to teach him how to fight while only a few years passed in the main dimension.

While they were in the Astral Realm, Anankos explained why the war had started, including the varying hardships the Dark Dragons had experienced as well as their goals and told him that he would have to make a choice; he could side with the Light Dragons and help them defeat the Dark Dragons, or he could side with the Dark Dragons and try to redeem them. The hybrid reluctantly sided with the Light Dragons (which is why the Yatogami is a holy symbol for them) and, with his help, they were able to slay the Dark Dragons allies and drive them back to Nohr, but stopped just short of annihilating them and showed mercy at the insistence of Yatogami’s wielder.

Conclusion

-The Dark Dragons quickly started abusing their human followers as a means of venting their frustrations. The humans and hybrids living in Nohr quickly grew sick of their abuses and turned on them. Since they weren’t expecting to be betrayed, several of them were slain before they knew what was going on and the rest were overwhelmed through sheer numbers despite the power they held.

-The other types of dragons, including the Light Dragons, took so many casualties that repopulating their species was out of the question. However, instead of being bitter and trying to destroy the world, they accepted that humans were going to be the new dominant species and accepted their inevitable extinction. The few remaining dragons moved into Touma, but not before the Light Dragons made sure to inspire what would become the Hoshidan Religion to ensure that they would remain vigilant against the Dark Dragon’s servants.

-Very few hybrids still lived after the war’s conclusion (one family on each side and the one child who ended the war). The child became the first human ruler of Touma while the families that survived took over the leadership of their respective countries.

-Realising that the Yato had been made too powerful, the Touman ruler asked Anankos to split it's power, but in such a way that its full power could still be unlocked in a crisis. Anankos did this by spliting it's power into nine pieces; one remained within the Yatogami itself and the other eight were used to create the holy weapons of Nohr and Hoshido so that they could defend themselves from any powerful threats that would wipe them out before human civilisation could properly grow. The weapons quickly saw use, as they were used to wipe out the Dark Dragons while the Hoshidan royal family used theirs to unite the lands on their side of the infinite chasm, although several would be granted independance in the ages to come.

Edited by Phillius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this talk about Macbeth is giving me ideas about a 3rd route Big Bad. "Man behind the man" is a nice theme but it's hard to have them involved with the other two routes, but not undermining their reason for existing. Fate's story is an example of the first two routes only being possible because of dumb plot devices.

So, here's my idea for a third route scenario.

Before the creation of Nohr and Hoshido, when the continent was still one, dragons ruled and humans were mere servants to the dragons. After a war between the dark dragon Anankos and the light dragon Sylvanos, the land became inhospitable to dragon-kind, and the remaining dragons fled to a spirit plane (Touma). The villain of this route was the wife of Anankos, and the one who convinced him to start the war (Macbeth influences). This character wishes to return to the physical world and restore the dragons' power there but the world is still unlivable for them. So she hatches a plan to breed humans with the potential to be the vessels that can hold the spirits of dragons (ie manaketes). The most important dragon she wants to revive is Anankos but she needs a special vessel to accomplish that. Garon is a decent choice but there may be an even better vessel in Hoshido...

The most difficult problem to address, of course, is what this character will be doing in the routes you aren't directly facing her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I've got some stuff to post. I was hoping to save it all for one massive post, but it's taking a long time and the post itself will be too long (at least I think it would), so I'm going to post what I have so far. If you guys could tell me what's good, what needs to be removed and what is okay but could be improved, that'd be great.

Ancient/Pre-History

Creation of the World

[spoiler=According to the Hoshidan Religion]

In the beginning, the material world was an uninhabitable, formless wasteland. Devoid of life, shrouded in darkness and incomparable to the world we know today. However, millions of years ago, the spirit known as Kōryū, the most powerful and respected spirit, took an interest in the material world. It crossed the boundary that divided the material and spirit world and became the Dragon of Light. With his incredible power, he banished the darkness and brought light and shape to the world. Seeking to further improve his design, he created four beings in his likeness; Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu, who created the seasons and the materials that would make up the world.

Seiryū the Azure Dragon created Spring and Wood

Suzaku the Vermillion Bird created Summer and Fire

Byakko the White Tiger created Autumn and all the worlds Metals

And Genbu the Black Tortoise created Winter and Water

Once this task was completed, Kōryū brought eleven of his closest advisors in the spirit world across the boundary, imbued them with his powers of creation and charged them with bringing life to the world. The twelve great spirits created the animals of the world in the likeness of their physical forms and personality, which reflected their natures as spirits:

The Rat God, who was intelligent and inquisitive, but manipulative and ambitious, created the worlds Rodents with the Rabbit God

The Ox God, who was hardworking and dependable, but stubborn and naive, created the worlds Bovine with the Goat God

The Tiger God, who was passionate and daring, but impulsive and rebellious, created the worlds Felidae

The Rabbit God, who was gracious and strong-willed, but cunning and ruthless, helped create the worlds Rodents with the Rat God

The Snake God, who was soft-spoken and wise, but vain and skeptical, created the worlds Reptiles

The Horse God, who was cheerful and quick-witted, but unreliable and fickle, created the worlds Equine

The Goat God, who was righteous and compassionate, but pessimistic and emotional, created the worlds Bovine with the Ox God

The Monkey God, who was innovative and self-assured, but arrogant and overconfident, created the worlds Primates

The Rooster God, who was dauntless and meticulous, but aggressive and uptight, created the worlds Avians

The Dog God, who was honest and loyal, but naive and untrusting, created the worlds Canidae

The Boar God, who was straightforward and gallant, but rough and hedonistic, created the worlds Suidae

And Kōryū created the world’s dragons, tasking them with the protection of the world while he himself swore to never interfere with his creation.

With life and form brought to the material world, spirits flocked on mass to be a part of it. Kōryū created bodies of clay and blood for these spirits, and the union of soul and body created the human race. However, the trauma of crossing the boundary between worlds was difficult for the lesser spirits to bear, and many lost their memories when merging with these clay constructs. To counteract this, these bodies were temporary and mortal, allowing the souls within to return to the spirit world upon its death and regain their memories.

[spoiler=According to the Nohrian Religion]

Officially, Huanglong created everything in the world by himself so that he’d have something to rule over. Unofficially, most Nohrians are atheists who believe that everything, even the dragons, came about through evolution.

[spoiler=What Actually Happened]

Kōryū and Huanglong are aliases of Anankos, who was the first dragon to exist by a massive margin, to the point that by the time the next four dragons (Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu) came into existence, he was already fully grown, but he never gave them an answer for how old he was or what his life was like before they existed. Anankos and the others did more or less shape the world into what it is today, but Anankos hadn't finished by the time the four symbol dragons came into being and empowered them so that they could take over for him. The Eleven Animal Gods weren't a thing, but they were the original animals that Anankos chose to preserve in the difficult and chaotic period of life’s early days as the basis for terrestrial life in the world (Genbu was the only one who bothered with aquatic life). Also, humans evolved naturally instead of being made from clay bodies inhabited by a spirit

The Dragon Wars

[spoiler=According to the Hoshidan Religion]

Time passed after Kōryū created the world and the early humans quickly mastered the landscapes that had been crafted, but this mastery eventually led to hubris, and man became convinced of their superiority. The Dark Dragons, who were jealous of the favoritism that Kōryū heaped upon the humans and mingled their blood with that of a powerful human family, granting them the ability to manipulate the foundations and elements of the world, manipulated these feelings.

The Dark Dragons, using the empowered humans as their puppets, brought war to the material realm. They quickly took over a large area of land, which was twisted and corrupted to reflect their evil nature. While the dragons waged war with each other, the peaceful humans were left at the mercy of their manipulated counterparts. With no other option, Kōryū broke his oath to remain passive mingled his blood with an equally powerful family in order to combat the Dark Dragon's puppets.

After thousands of years of war, the Dark Dragons were slain to the last and their human puppets driven back to their originally conquered land. With the rest of the world in ruins, Kōryū returned to the spirit world as penance for his failure to prevent the destruction and was followed by the Seasonal and Animal Gods after they had restored the world to it's original state, leaving the family empowered by Kōryū's blood and their subjects to defend the world and redeem their twisted counterparts.

[spoiler=According to the Nohrian Religion]

Long ago, the Dragons ruled the world under the tyrannical leadership of the Light Dragon Huanglong. When mankind first came into the world, Huanglong saw how quickly they adapted to the world and grew to fear their potential. Terrified that the humans would grow strong and challenge his rule, Huanglong and his armies conquered the early human tribes and forced them into servitude. This enslavement persisted for hundreds of thousands of years, until the Dark Dragons saw an opportunity to stage a coup against their ruler.

The Dark Dragons, who plotted and schemed in the shadows to overthrow Huanglong and take control of his kingdom, offered the human race an ultimatum; willing individuals could mate with them in order to produce hybrids that would be strong enough to fight the dragons on equal footing, or serve the dragons till the end of time. The Dark Dragons promised them that the Age of the Dragons would come to an end and that the Age of Man would take its place, with all the power and wealth of Huanglong's kingdom becoming theirs.

With no other choice but to trust the Dark Dragons, many humans took up their offer and within a century, thousands of humans were born with the power of the dragons. Their dark patrons taught them how to use these powers and the human quickly threw off the shackles of oppression and waged a war against the dragons. His worst fears fully realised, Huanglong ordered the dragons that remained loyal to him to produce similar hybrids in order to combat this new threat and the war was dragged into a bloody stalemate for millennia. Eventually, although Huanglong was driven into hiding and the dragons loyal to him were put to the sword, the loyalist hybrids triumphed over the rebellious forces and drove them back to Nohr, land of the Dark Dragons.

Unfortunately, the Dark Dragons were bitter over their defeat and blamed mankind for their coups failure. Angered by the betrayal of their kin and the Dark Dragons attempts to force them back into servitude, the humans turned upon them and killed them to the last, but not before so many of the hybrids, many of whom were slain in the war, died off that only one family remained. Declaring that no human would know the agonies of slavery again, the last remaining hybrid family was unanimously declared rulers of the nation and have led the free humans ever since.

[spoiler=According to Suzaku, Seiryu, Genbu and Byakko]

None of them remember how or why the war started, having forgotten the events in their old age or missed them due to having slept through them, but all of them have different accounts of the dragon and human prosperity when the war started.

-Genbu believes things went down as they are described (dragons, then humans, then war, but the details are lost on him).

-Suzaku remembers that the dragons were already warring with each other before the humans showed up

-Byakko thinks that the dragons had mostly died off before the humans even showed up

-Seiryū is dead by the time the story takes place, having become a spirit to avoid insanity. However, he fathered a son who knows that there was a war, but nothing else.

[spoiler=What Actually Happened]

As it turns out, there were actually two wars, although the first one technically wasn’t a war as much as it was a series of simultaneous psychotic murdering sprees. The first one occurred very early in the history of the dragons, when the first generation started succumbing to their destructive urges. Since Dragons only start going mad once they’ve lived a very long time and dragons get stronger with age, the ‘war’ mostly consisted of the older dragons murdering anything they could get their hands on until Anankos realised they were beyond saving and slaughtered them. This led to an enforced policy of Dragons leaving their bodies behind once they started showing signs of madness and upset Anankos so much that he swore off violence forever.

The Dark Dragons started the Second Dragon War in the early days of humanities existence. When humanity came about, Anankos took an interest in them because of his ability to see possible futures and how a lot of them involved humanity being the dominant species in the world. The reasons for the Dark Dragons starting the war is mostly them living terrible lives, including but not limited to:

-The Dark and Light Dragons are descendants of Anankos, but the Light Dragons are the ‘favoured children’ and get more attention then them, because the Dark Dragons are more emotional and aggressive than their counterparts, with Anankos being more invested in a completely different species just rubbing it in.

-Because of their powers and nature (such as having natural proficiency with dark magic), the land that was given them became tainted and started dying, making it nearly impossible for them to cultivate adequate food supplies, while the Light Dragons land prospered in their presence, making vegetation grow much faster and life flocked to their realm, giving them plenty of food.

-The Dark Dragons, due to a combination of the influence of dark magic and their more aggressive nature, succumbed to insanity much faster than any other ‘breeds’ of dragon. Imagine if a human started showing symptoms of Alzheimer’s in their mid-twenties and you have a good idea of what that was like for them.

-Because of their shitty genes and typically aggressive personalities, no other Dragon types were interested in mating with them, which forced them into incest in order to keep their population even somewhat stable. Of course, the rampant incest alienated them from other types of dragons as well as Anankos and caused their dark magic/mental/insanity problems to become even worse.

These factors led to the Dark Dragons slowly sliding into extinction and left them feeling angry and resentful in an existential ‘what did we do to deserve this’ kind of way. With the emergence of humans and Anankos’ subsequent favouritism of them, they decided that if they were going to die, than they were going to take everything else with them. To do this, they enslaved the large majority of humans and manipulated them into believing that Anankos was responsible. In addition to this, many Dark Dragons started taking human mates in order to produce hybrids that possessed the power of Dragons. Anankos tried asking them to release the humans, but they used his refusal to fight to their advantage so they could carry on with what they were doing.

Having run out of options, Anankos asked the Light Dragons to ‘take care of them’. The Light Dragons, who almost universally despised the Dark Dragons for their previously mentioned issues (despite the fact that they had no control over those things), were more than happy to oblige and started raising their own army of humans and hybrids with the intent of killing them to the last.

The Dark Dragons initially had the advantage due to their greater number of human and hybrid warriors, but as the longer the war lasted, more and more previously neutral parties were dragged into the conflict with the majority of them siding against the Dark Dragons. In addition to this, the Dark and Light Dragons who chose not to fight were either forcibly conscripted or killed. The result was a bloody stalemate that lasted for decades with no end in sight.

Horrified by what had happened, Anankos took a human family into his private dimension (Which would later become Touma) and, when the mother of the family was pregnant, he had her drink potions that used his own blood as the main ingredient. The resulting child was born with all the power and abilities of a half-dragon and Anankos create a blade that nullified the powers of dragons and physically weakened them with its presence. The child was taken into an Astral Realm where time passed at a much faster rate, allowing Anankos and the child’s parents to teach him how to fight while only a few years passed in the main dimension.

While they were in the Astral Realm, Anankos explained why the war had started, including the varying hardships the Dark Dragons had experienced as well as their goals and told him that he would have to make a choice; he could side with the Light Dragons and help them defeat the Dark Dragons, or he could side with the Dark Dragons and try to redeem them. The hybrid reluctantly sided with the Light Dragons (which is why the Yatogami is a holy symbol for them) and, with his help, they were able to slay the Dark Dragons allies and drive them back to Nohr, but stopped just short of annihilating them and showed mercy at the insistence of Yatogami’s wielder.

Conclusion

-The Dark Dragons quickly started abusing their human followers as a means of venting their frustrations. The humans and hybrids living in Nohr quickly grew sick of their abuses and turned on them. Since they weren’t expecting to be betrayed, several of them were slain before they knew what was going on and the rest were overwhelmed through sheer numbers despite the power they held.

-The other types of dragons, including the Light Dragons, took so many casualties that repopulating their species was out of the question. However, instead of being bitter and trying to destroy the world, they accepted that humans were going to be the new dominant species and accepted their inevitable extinction. The few remaining dragons moved into Touma, but not before the Light Dragons made sure to inspire what would become the Hoshidan Religion to ensure that they would remain vigilant against the Dark Dragon’s servants.

-Very few hybrids still lived after the war’s conclusion (one family on each side and the one child who ended the war). The child became the first human ruler of Touma while the families that survived took over the leadership of their respective countries.

-Realising that the Yato had been made too powerful, the Touman ruler asked Anankos to split it's power, but in such a way that its full power could still be unlocked in a crisis. Anankos did this by spliting it's power into nine pieces; one remained within the Yatogami itself and the other eight were used to create the holy weapons of Nohr and Hoshido so that they could defend themselves from any powerful threats that would wipe them out before human civilisation could properly grow. The weapons quickly saw use, as they were used to wipe out the Dark Dragons while the Hoshidan royal family used theirs to unite the lands on their side of the infinite chasm, although several would bethe granted independance in the ages to come.

Interesting lore. Is this just the background information or will it come up in the story proper?

I assume Kamui is the better vessel. Does he have a chance to join Dragon Wife?

That's an interesting idea, but it would probably clash with the themes of the other two routes. Kamui is trying to do the right thing, no matter whom he sides with so joining the world conquering dragon might be out of character for both Kamui and anyone who would side with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's pretty great Phillius.

@NekoKnight: I assume Takumi or Gunther are better choices for Dragon Wife to use as a vessel?

Probably Kamui, although if the Infinite Chasm is still the entrance to Touma, Gunter might be possessed by a lesser dragon and become an enemy.

So many ideas to juggle around, but if I decide to work on a 3rd route (the hardest because the framework would have to be built from scratch), it will be after the other two. I've only committed to writing Nohr so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

Edited by Alazen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

1. Mishandled. There is nothing really wrong with Kamui, it's just how the story treats them. Don't make Kamui the center of all attention and punish them for poor choices and you have a serviceable character.

2. I wouldn't say that all 4 (for each side) are needed for a good story but they aren't necessarily a detriment to the story either. It's okay if some siblings don't get as much attention (I don't really care so much about Sakura) as long as they offer something to the plot.

3. I believe supernatural elements can cheapen the human drama of a story so it would be better for the plot to focus on one thing or another. It wouldn't be impossible to write for both, if you had a talented writer.

4. Of course! A lot of Fates is just dicking around without really moving the plot forward in a meaningful way. There is plenty of time if you trim the fat.

5. It can be removed with barely any alteration of the plot but I feel like Kamui's dragon heritage gives him an edge on being a valued individual in the conflict.

6. He needn't be the final boss for both routes but he plays a big role in my vision of Nohr. Because Kamui's choice for Nohr is a choice of loyalty over righteousness, there is a lot of parallels between Kamui, Marx and Garon.

7. Personally, I prefer my protagonists in stories (at least ones in interactive mediums) to be sympathetic, even if they are flawed and make mistakes. I couldn't enjoy the plot of Final Fantasy Tactics because the MC was such a selfish and thoughtless person (made worse because the plot didn't consider his viewpoint flawed).

8. Hydra, Shenmei, Felicia, Lilith, Eponine, Soleil, Foleo, Lutz, Sophie and Shigure so far.

Edited by NekoKnight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

My own rewrite is shelved in favor of RL, but I want to will answer anyway.

1. Mishandled. A naive character given the choice of two nations is an interesting perspective, but their morals are never challenged and he/she never evolves within the story despite the events happening around them.

2. Too many? No. Handle properly? Maybe. It really depends on the writer. Not everyone can be given focus but all can be given roles to play. Marx and Ryouma are probable be the ones of the siblings who would get most focus since they are Kamui's direct antagonist in respective route.

3. No. I agree that Touma's involvement is way too ridiculous and the third path even moreso, but an entity pulling strings behind the scenes could definitely add some drama. It can also tie in with Kamui's character. He/she has problems fighting Hoshidan/Nohrian troops no matter what side yet display no such compunctions towards Touma (granted, they are dead).

4. Yes, but all should not be shown in one route, instead divide it between the routes. Have the war take centerpiece in Birthright while the reformation/revolution in Conquest (the way I thought it would be).

5. Stay. Kamui is inferior in everything to his siblings (except for Sakura and Elise) and his/her draconic power might be the only advantage they have to play a role in the war. Aqua's dragonstone is a cheap cop-out. It would be much more interesting if Kamui inherited the problems dragons have, with each successive use of the dragonstone degrading Kamui's mind more and more, but at the same time they require its power to make a difference.

6. I don't know really. Maybe not always as the last boss. I prefer if Kamui held Garon as the villain, slay him only to find Nohr crumble into pieces without Garon's control and they have to deal with the fallout. Kinda like a real-world event right now.

7. Entirely unsympathetic, no. Kamui is meant to strive to become a hero. But that Kamui's acts becomes questionable I have no problems with. I actually encourage that. As stated before, their ideals need to be challenged.

8. All the children characters. Maybe cameos as kids. But not as full-grown warriors. Mozume is in limbo (I really don't know what to do with her).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

1. Like others, and myself included, have said, Kamui is just mishandled. The premise of the game is fantastic on paper, but it ends up being an awful mess. The narrative treats Kamui with kid gloves and as such is never properly challenged or questioned outside of chapter six, which I've said on numerous occasions is actually well written, but has its impact removed completely because of the third, de facto correct path. It also doesn't help that Kamui doesn't develop as a character nor forms any real ties to his supposedly important families; they're a naive little kid everyone flocks to for some reason, and every sibling relationship barring Camilla's feels exactly the same.

2. Without a doubt. In a game like this where the focus should lie on the relationships of the characters and the ties to a nation and family, it's far more important to focus on the nuances and differences between the siblings and the two countries. Intelligent Systems don't have particularly good writers, and they made it even harder on themselves by making so many prominent characters even though they don't have the skills to pull it off - hell, I doubt many writers could handle eight separate siblings and portray them well in a Fire Emblem game format as well as Azura, Garon, Iago etc. And now you might think "but Thane, you sexy sexy beast, it was Mr. Kibayashi who wrote the drafts; he came up with all the siblings!", to which I answer: so what? They've most likely removed large chunks of his draft in other places; there was no reason to keep that many siblings. I mean, just look at the sisters and how superfluous they are.

3. I subscribe to my own stance. If there was a human kingdom hidden somewhere, with a population and a leader which were made relatable somehow benefited from the chaos and were therefore pulling the strings from the shadows, I would probably like that, provided it didn't completely remove áll responsibility from the other two nations. However, that is simply not the case. The only person of note in Touma is Hydra, who wants to destroy the world for teh lulz, and he does so by raising and controlling bodies. How very exciting; we've never seen that before. As a world-ending dragon who is behind 100% of the conflict, it removes the human element completely, and all responsibility and tension are removed from the characters and the kingdoms, ripping any form of complexity the story could've had out of the game. Not to mention there are so many contrivances with Touma that I don't even know where to begin, the curse being the biggest issue.

4. Obviously. Hoshido could be a standard, overly traditional Fire Emblem game if it wants, and Conquest could've served as a more complex story, with political intrigue and the like. It would've made for a great opportunity to actually flesh out the countries a bit, and if Garon wasn't a manipulated slime monster, it could've delved into his personality and motives. The war with Hoshido could've been kept in Conquest, masking Kamui and co's actions as they slowly gathered allies to strike against Garon.

5. What for? The game skims over it completely anyway. Of course, I would prefer less Fire Emblem dragons in general, so I'd gladly axe the transformation and dragon vein.

6. The old fart could die of choking on a pea for all I care. If he was made more interesting, maybe I would actually care about what happened to him. If that were the case, then I'd say yes, at least if there were only two routes. I haven't thought over it a lot though, so I might change my mind on this later. As long as the mistake that is his involvement in the third path isn't repeated, it's an improvement.

7. Kamui being unsympathetic straight up doesn't work given the premise, unless the third route were to be a "destroy everything and rule the world as a god-king" like some people wanted. His ties to the countries and his families should be the center of the game, and if he were a jerk, it would fall flat. Granted, the game took a piss on its own premise, so what do I know.

8. I'm not writing anything, but I would simply not include the children for coherency and my own sanity's sake. It's a dumb game mechanic, and should be regarded as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

1. Nah, just mishandled. If they were actually forced to realise that their naivete wasn't suitable to the real world and actually went through some character development, they'd be much better as a character.

2. Kind of, but not really. They could be handled properly, but their were too many for them to have focus on (notice how Camilla, Hinoka and Sakura are basically inconsequential to the plot and severely out of focus) for how long the story is. But then again, it'd be much easier to give them all spotlight and development in say, a fanfiction, because fanfiction lasts as long as you want it to.

3. Yes, but only because their isn't enough time to properly flesh it out. I believe that a lot of Fates' problems could be fixed if their were more chapters in each story.

4. Yes, it'd be easiest if Kamui wasn't just following orders for the first few chapters and going at it from the start i.e. telling the Ice Tribe to wait for a more opportune moment to rebel against Garon rather than getting them to stop all together.

5. No.

6. In Hoshido, that's kinda the point. Maybe in Nohr too, although I suppose their could be a way to work around it. Honestly, it comes down to your opinions on slime!Garon as a character on how much you tolerate his presence.

7. No, playing as a twat is only fun for me when the character is either supposed to be evil (the Overlord Games) or their dickheadedness is amusing (Alpha Protocol). If the character is a twat and still supposed to be the hero of the story, it just gets on my nerves.

8. No one is getting cut. It is my honest opinion that nothing in Fates is beyond fixing and, while my efforts might be in vain, I will do my best to fix every aspect of the story (even the children).

Edited by Phillius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's a questionnaire for all the rewriters here:

1. Is Kamui fundamentally broken as a character or just mishandled?

2. Does Kamui have too many siblings to handle them all properly?

3. Do you subscribe to Thanes' stance that Touma and all the characters tied to it drag down the narrative to begin with?

4. Is there room in Fates for both the war between the two nations and Nohr's reformation?

5. Should Kamui's shapeshifting be removed or at least restricted to a Path?

6. Should Kamui always end up fighting Garon?

7. Would you support Kamui being an unsympathetic character like Arthas or Macbeth?

8. How many characters have you axed?

Not sure if I'll actually have time to rewrite anything, but I'll try to answer you:

1. I'd echoes everyone's opinions so far that Kamui's character is mishandled. I don't think it takes that much effort to "fix" their character, as compared to say, Aqua. Just deviate most of the protagonist worship from them, while adding some character development and you'll already have a semi-decent main character. They shouldn't stay naive or utterly idealistic for the rest of the story. They should learn something from their mistakes and throughout their journey. They should gradually realize the complexity and all the "darkness" of the world they're living in, and their character should develop according to such revelations, even if their ideology and belief stays the same. The Kamui of endgame should not be the same person as the one from chapter 1.

2. Yes. While all of them could have received proper characterizations and development had Fates been written in the form of a full-fledged fictional product (e.g a novel or manga). But in a game, that is impossible. Personally, I don't have the interest to spend my effort on them all.

3. Not quite. But the overall story and all of the characters tied to Touma need to be reworked. In my idea, while the third path is still the most ideal one, it's in no way a "golden ending". True peace never comes without sacrifices.

4. Yes. I made the war the focus of the Hoshido route, while the revolution for Nohr. Both will be the focus of the first part of the third route (IK is twice the length of the other two routes), but will be dealt with in a different way.

5. No.

6. No. Garon will always die, but he doesn't necessarily have to be killed by Kamui and his force.

7. No. I don't think there's any necessity for doing so.

8. A lot. The second gen, the Awakening children, Hinoka (merged with Camilla), Elise (merged with Sakura), Joker (merged with Felicia), Yukimura. I will also axe a lot of retainers by giving them other roles or make them generic soldiers. Many other characters will also receive drastic changes in their roles.

Edited by Ryo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...