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Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

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If this is the first time you've read "shoddy worldbuilding" on terms of what the game gives us, I don't think you're remembering over half of this thread.

In terms of IRL comparisons- I mostly stick to ancient Japan cause Hoshido is pretty much a fatasical indulgence towards Japanese culture in how IS shaped everything, y'know ignoring all the icky murky things that lie in the actual past but keeping all the flavor. Also it's why I'm taking the "Hosihdo was isolationist to the max in its past" approach to why the war with them and Nohr started. That is a very Japanese fact and easy to ground the realism without going full imperial Japan on how NASTY they got.

Admittedly rather than "dirtying them up" I've had more fun thinking up what kinds of internal issues they'd have while still living in prosperity- mostly a lot of domestic power struggles.

Edited by Damosel

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I think there is lots of room to explore how Hoshido keeps its peace. Tokugawa Japan had a fascinating system called Sankin Kotai, where the families of the regional lords were kept in the capital as hostages, and the lords would spend half their time in the capital and half in their provinces. This kept the lords loyal to the central government and rapidly grew the size of the capital. Where Nohr keeps itself together with military conquest, Hoshido could be unified and kept 'peaceful' by hostages and loyalty indoctrination. The differences and consequences of a society of individualists vs a group oriented society could be examined as well.

If I end up writing Hoshido, I'd want a portion of Kamui's character development to be devoted to coping with culture shock, enough to where he misses and sometimes regrets leaving Nohr.

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Also it's why I'm taking the "Hosihdo was isolationist to the max in its past" approach to why the war with them and Nohr started. That is a very Japanese fact and easy to ground the realism without going full imperial Japan on how NASTY they got.

I'm hoping you'll tone down Nohr's war crime pastime if you won't bump up Hoshidos. It's not like Imperial Japan's war crimes were out of place for its culture when you look at Japanese conduct in war throughout Japan's recorded history.

Anyway, you should keep in mind Edo Japan was never "isolationist" in that there wasn't significant contact with lands outside of it. Even in the 1800s the backlash was more anti-Western than anti-interference. What was later called sakoku was formed in light of the failed invasion of Korea along with the Tokugawa Shogunate trying to keep a grip across the land. And it still wasn't out of place with the policies of China and Korea.

What would push Hoshido towards sakoku considering its position?

Edited by Alazen

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I don't know if you've see my first post in this thread, but I'm writing an Alternate Universe where Garon IS NOT Gooran and Nohr/Hoshido have already made peace and are working on the beginnings of an alliance. I'm not following the game's logic for the mad dragon wanting humanity to suffer, so it doesn't make sense for Nohr's king to stir discontent in his tributaries- though court politics will stay plenty brutal.

As for historical accuracy, I don't care enough to want to include the fate of "comfort women" in any of my fiction. It's repugnant, and I'll just say my grandparents where originally from China but the fallout of WWII forced them to flee. I'm more than fine toning down the war crimes element and mellowing both sides out- cause doing the opposite gets ugly stuff.

Also Japan was isolationst towards Western influence, which pretty much fits the equation between Hoshido/Nohr. The origins of Hanafuda even demonstrate it:

In 1549, the 18th year of Tenbun, a missionary Francis Xavier landed in the country and the crew of his ship had carried a set of 48 Portuguese Hombre playing cards from Europe, and eventually card games became popular, along with their use for gambling. When Japan subsequently closed off all contact with the Western world in 1633, foreign playing cards were banned.

I think there is lots of room to explore how Hoshido keeps its peace. Tokugawa Japan had a fascinating system called Sankin Kotai, where the families of the regional lords were kept in the capital as hostages, and the lords would spend half their time in the capital and half in their provinces. This kept the lords loyal to the central government and rapidly grew the size of the capital. Where Nohr keeps itself together with military conquest, Hoshido could be unified and kept 'peaceful' by hostages and loyalty indoctrination. The differences and consequences of a society of individualists vs a group oriented society could be examined as well.

These I'd really like to see! Seeing the culture clash and differen approaches as a society is what I really like in the potential for Fates' setting.

As for how it could happen- if Hoshido and Nohr have been are war a long time (possibly generations) you can easily immitate the gone-to-Korea context. If most of the fighting forces and feudal lords went to head off Nohr's invasion at the Chasm, means they were gone from Hoshido proper. As the game forces you to travel through both Izumo and Fuuga to reach the equivalent area. So there's the distance, and when the fighting breaks, they return home to Hoshido to find their king has set up something new. And well, in the far past maybe Hoshido experiance the infighting which is constant throughout ancient Japan.

I'm having the caste system being implemented (with the inability to switch masters) after Fuuma ally with Nohr.

Kamui being homesick in Hoshido would be nice to see. I've very salty how the game depicts them as have no love whatsoever for the country in which they were raise (the excuse is they never got to leave a castle, but blah).

Edited by Damosel

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Here's a sneak peak at some of the script that I'm working on. The game itself doesn't give us a strong reason for why Marx supports Garon so I'm hoping to fix that and give some perspective on Garon and Marx's values. This dialogue would take place before the start of Chapter 15, where the invasion of Hoshido is nearly complete.

[spoiler=Story]

<flashback from Marx's childhood years>

Garon: Marx, when you look upon the people of Nohr, what do you see?

Marx: ...I see farmers in their fields, knights and lords in their castles and bandits on the road.

Garon: That's right. And all of those people, the lowborn and the highborn, desire the same thing; wealth and power. But these things are limited so they scheme, and they covet, and they fight. They would take it all away from us if we let them. They are loyal to nothing but their own advancement.

Marx: The people will be loyal if we protect them.

Garon: They will be loyal when they want for nothing, but that's not the Nohr we live in. Hoshido, with its verdant fields and clear sky... I would take it all if it could pacify this country of cut-throats and liars.

Marx: I will give it to you, Father! I swear on my sword!

Garon: Haha, I'm sure you will! I've seen your swordsmanship and you have a natural talent for leadership. I'm very proud of you.

Marx: I want you to be proud of me, Father.

<end of flashback>

Marx: Father... we've come farther into Hoshido than any Nohrian has for hundreds of years. Soon we will lay siege to the capital and take what is ours by right. I will give you the throne of Hoshido.

Perhaps I'll paint Garon as a (previously) well-meaning leader but the difficulties of preserving Nohr made him cynical and misanthropic. He becomes obsessed with conquering Hoshido, becoming more and more brutal to those who stand between him and his goal, be they Hoshidans or Nohrians. What most people regard as a war-mongering tyrant, Marx remembers as a kind father and pragmatic leader.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Also Japan was isolationst towards Western influence, which pretty much fits the equation between Hoshido/Nohr. The origins of Hanafuda even demonstrate it:

I suggest looking beyond Wikipedia. Start with this:

http://www.nippon.com/en/features/c00104/

After that, use Google Books.

Japan being somehow uniquely isolated has been outdated for decades. Even in the 1800s there was a movement claiming that Japan should use Western methods to keep Japan out of the clutches of Westerners.

If you're going to make Hoshido's foreign policy akin to Edo Japan's, then you should recognize that it was more nuanced than ''KEEP OUT THE WEST'' as you can call it.

On another note, it might be best to tone down if not get rid the starving Mordorish Nohr angle considering how powerful its empire supposedly is.

Edited by Alazen

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The whole Mordor deal is part of why they want to conquer Hoshido though. Take that out and it misses a big chunk of why they became ambitious and sought conquest in the first place.

What you could do is make it closer to the actual Mordor, which had actual good farmland at least because of the volcano.

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Mordor's conquests weren't pushed by trying to supply starving citizens. Nohr actually having helpful farmland to the point of being able to supply armies who seriously threaten the East at large undermines the ''We're starving so we're going around performing our national pastime'' angle.

On Earth, pre-industrial continent trotting hegemonies such as the Romans or Chinese formed where the geography enabled so. The only exception is the Mongol Empire, which happened to have nomadic roots.

Edited by Alazen

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True, but Mordor still had farmlands to feed its men. When they weren't eating other sentient creatures or their own kind of course. But Nohr is a larger nation than Hoshido so it likely isn't able to produce enough food on its own.

Nohr still has some farmland, but most of the time the weather ruins chances to produce food.

What I'm trying to say is that the actual Mordor is a better environment to live in than Nohr.

Edited by JupiterKnight

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Alright, so Nohr's geography is ridiculous for its apparent threat level and centralization.

I've figured that the ''Nohr is a totally starving Mordorlike'' angle is a poorly thought out attempt to make Nohr look sympathetic. All considered, I'm thinking Nohr might have worked better if it was just Rome.

Edited by Alazen

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So how about Aqua? There's kind of a doozy right there. Here's a little questionnaire:

1. Is Aqua/Azura extraneous to the story? Is she stealing Kamui's story away or can she be incorporated into the story, if written better?

2. If you think she has a place in the story, what would you do?

Edited by CatskillEagle

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So how about Aqua? There's kind of a doozy right there. Here's a little questionnaire:

1. Is Aqua/Azura extraneous to the story? Is she stealing Kamui's story away or can she be incorporated into the story, if written better?

2. If you think she has a place in the story, what would you do?

1. Of course not. Azura, along with a lot of other things, would be a lot less plot hole-ish if better written. The problem is, like you said, everything she does is based on the impact it has on Kamui's story. Things would be much better if the entire plot/world didn't revolve around Kamui and I'll leave it at that.

2. This is easy enough; have her actually do things aside from act as an exposition-bot for the current scene. My favourite chapter for her (in both Nohr and Hoshido) is the one where she takes matters into her own hands and tries to kill Garon herself, rather than acting as the Navi to Kamui's Link.

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So how about Aqua? There's kind of a doozy right there. Here's a little questionnaire:

1. Is Aqua/Azura extraneous to the story? Is she stealing Kamui's story away or can she be incorporated into the story, if written better?

2. If you think she has a place in the story, what would you do?

Anything can be accomplished with good writing but to answer question one, the only thing Aqua adds to the story is some really dodgy strategy tips, moral support and exposition dropping. Considering all the other characters who could fill in for these roles (the royal siblings, Kamui's household staff), Aqua only serves to be needlessly mysterious and (as we find out by the existence of Touma) ineffectual.

So what can be done? This will depend on whether or not you want to include the 3rd route. Without the 3rd route, we can safely reduce Aqua to a minor character. Kamui already has four siblings to play off of so we don't need any more main characters diluting each others' screen time. With the 3rd route it becomes more tricky. A writer would need to come up with a reason for why she can't or won't pursue her agenda in the first two routes. I think it would take a dramatic restructuring of the plot.

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I don't see what makes Aqua necessary even with Invisible Kingdom. If you need somebody to tell Kamui about Touma (and by extension, Hydra) then you could actually try to make Lilith relevant by having her serve as Kamui's informer and/or recruiter (if you're going with Kamui joining a 3rd faction).

She's not even necessary as a foil to Kamui (royal of one land who was raised in another land). You could make one of the Maid Sisters more relevant by playing her up as an Ice Tribe princess who was taken from her homeland.

Edited by Alazen

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By the way, for those of you who want to give the sisters their own holy weapons, Siegfried and Brunhilde take their names from the saga of the legendary hero Sigurd (hah!) from Norse Mythology. Siegfried was Sigurd's name in the Germanic Version while Brunhilde (also Brynhildr) was one of the twelve Valkyries of Odin and Siegfried's first wife. If I might give some suggestions, you could go for:

*Gudrun (Kriemhild in Germanic Mythology)- Siegfried's second wife (or his wife in a different version of the legend, but I'm pretty sure she's his second)

*Gunnar (Gunther in Germanic Mythology)- Gudrun's brother and Brunhilde's second husband (I've read something like 5 different versions of the mythos, so don't quote me on any of this)

*Fáfnir- A Dragon killed by Siegfried (fitting, considering my take on the Fates Mythos)

*Sigmund- Father of Siegfried and also the name of his son

*Hjördís (or Hiordis)- second wife of Sigmund and mother of Siegfried

*Reginn- Siegfried's foster father.

*Svanhildr- Siegfried and Kriemhild's daughter

*Aslaug- Siegfried and Brunhilde's daughter

*Grimhild- the 'main villain' of Siegfried's saga.

As for the Hoshidan sisters, Ryoma and Takumi's weapons are named after different Shinto Gods, so just goggle a list of different Kami and find the one you feel is most appropriate. I was thinking of naming Hinoka's after Hachiman (God of War) and Sakura's after Omoikane (God of Wisdom and Intelligence), but you could also go for Suijin, Tenjin, Ryujin, Amaterasu, Susanoo, ETC. Hopefully this helps a little.

Edited by Phillius

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Naming conventions are a little hard to settle on.(at least for Nohr). You have Scottish names like Macbeth, Germanic names like Marx and Brunhilde, French names like Garon... It feels lazy to just pick names from all across European culture/lore but the game already does this.

Hachiman sounds like a cool name for Hinoka's weapon but if you want to stick with the naming theme they have already, Suijin and Tenjin are probably a better fit. Other Japanese names you could have are the Imperial Regalia, Kusanagi (sword), Yato (mirror) and Yasakani (magatama). Susanoo is the name of the wall outside the capital, btw.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Alright, here's more for a rewrite of Fates:

[spoiler=Universal Changes]

-Kamui is the birth child of Sumeragi and Mikoto. Hydra is connected in that one of his line formed a blood pact for Sumeragi during his conquest.

-Aqua has been removed from Fates entirely. Elements linked to her such as the prophecy have been removed or reworked.

-Flora and Felicia have been combined into one princess of the Ice Tribe. She'll have her similar position to Kamui played up, especially if he goes against Nohr.

-No returning Awakening characters beyond cameos that aren't acknowledged as actually there.

-There is no 2nd Gen. There is no Secluded Realm. Any 2nd Gen characters that can be salvaged will be recruitable conventionally.

-Lillith is the one who forms a blood pact with Sumeragi.

[spoiler=Hoshido Changes]

-Mikoto is the heavenly sovereign, a woman with the blood of a dragon. Her position has her not in thw habit of using executive power. She has no siblings.

-Sumeragi is a warlord who formed a blood pact with Lilith, conquered a noticeable chunk of the East, and married Mikoto.

-The heavenly children are Firstborn Daughter, Kamui, and Takumi. Ryoma and Hinoka have been merged into the eldest heavenly child. Sakura has been cut out to trim down on siblings.

-One opposing leader in Hoshido is a daimyo whose territory was forced to surrender to Sumeragi. He or she has both the resentment and resources to oppose Sumeragi's children.

-Rinka is of a people who have a history of conflict with other Easterners.

Edited by Alazen

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oh wow so many pages x^x also this is really long so going into a spolier tag:

i am also very sorry if there are aome/alot of missed errors on this, its hard to correct things on my phone and in some cases i dont feel like potentially loosing everything I wrote overa typo or a capitailzation error.

First things first I hope the reason why its taking so long to even come out woth a release date IS to patch up the plot for the west, because i dont see too extreme of a problem woth it all, doesnt bother me much, instead I like to be able to fill those holes in myself for fic Ideas XD The JAPANESE version seems very shonen-manga in that way, throwing in "cool features" with minimal explanation.

I hope its patching rather than just a butt-ton of censoring

i dont think most of it is nessecary, thats what the ersb system is for and parents shouldnt be buying rated T or M stuff for kids anyway, so people need to stop complaining

Ive read a decent amount, yet a minimal amount of spoilers, so keep that in mind. the major plot points like the invisble kingdom and hyrda thing are all known by me.

[spoiler=shouldnt be spoliers for most of you, still tagging just in case]I know about hydra being kamui's dad, and how hydra got to be kamui's dad.

i know about the constant time loop

I know the truth about garon

yada yada yada you get the point by now. I know the general things just not the details of it all.

Personally, i think it might be the shonen-manga like appeal (if any of you are from Japan feel free to correct or even ridicule me for making this assumption) which is a general appeal that seems to honestly be more popular in japan by the general crowd, from what ive been told its normal for many people to pick up the weekly SJ even if they really arent too into manga/anime and like only 1-2 series.

THIS [\b] however does not appeal to most North Americans at least.

(Im only going to vouch for my loclaization area, mind you. I dont live in/know all about the culture of all countires other than Japan, so Im not going to pretend to know the general interests there. not sayingr i know much about Japan, I know thats just a thing)

So I do think change is needed HOWEVER I dont think any major changes are needed to the conquest and borth right routes

I personally think more things should be explained but also still leave the same amount of questions, heck make it even more confusing. FNAF sells all of its games for this reason, nintendo would benefit from the third route, espeically when people like being left woth questions like us, americans seem to, seriosuly people are addicted to trying to find more about the FNAF lore.

anyway here's my two sense, with what i said above in mind

[spoiler=There be many spoilers here]

First off I think the games needs to be alot like Higurashi no naku koro ni (& kai)

they Implemented the loop and pocket dimensions, now they need to utilize them!

Aqua/Azura NEEDS to be aware even if it takes until a certain chapter to be aware of this, much like Rika from higurashi espeically seeing she does everytime if the third route isnt completed. She also, like Kamui needs to NOT remember about the invisble kingdom, at first.

this needs to be realized later in the first choice of the playthrough, then during the second one with them obviously failing the first time because the followed birthright/conquest, Aqua/Azura and Kamui (after some prompting) needs to remembers what happened the first time.

they then try to prevent it by taking the side the player didnt choose at first, obviously remembering earlier on, within the first 6 chapters, determinded to not only set things right but to also maybe not loose anyone they hold dear and close. (maybe even make them both feel guilty and like ot was thier fault for not being able to prevent it, especially Aqua seeing she probably remembers all the times beforehand, with hinting at the stories being different the previous times before the games, yet again like rika)

now this is where things get complicated, especially if route 3 stays DLC, if the player doesnt have route 3 the game needs to force them to be stuck in it by making the two main characters NOT remember the first time/ w/e around then they go back to teh scratxhing booard and have you choose yet again.

if the invisible kingdom is included then this, or is purchased then when it comes to makig a choice the third time around (or whatever tome it ends up being if its dlc), both Kamui and Aqua are exaugshted from this and are honestly mentally scarred. this is where another charcter needs to become alot more important, Lilith (oh gods I hope i spelled her name right becauss i cant check atm). The two run away from the scene once declaring they will take neither side. Lilith then joins up with them as well, lilith holds both of thier memories/knowledge of the invisble kingdom, one she knows that they are aware of thier situations, she can also reveal how this came to be with minimal detail making players want to buy that dlc as well, hey nintendo can use the money [\s] she insists that both kingdoms need to come together and they need the fire emblem to help stop the heartless Hydra (maybe even somehow if possible involve the heart of hydra, that way hydra can return to himself and leave it so Kamui is still a prince/princess and let them be with whoever they want them to be with. (also plz make kamui and Azura not cousins by blood at least guys.)

anyway have this be the goal, (with maybe finding the "heart of hydra" this seriously sounds like kingdom hearts now ) that the heroes set off on.

the curse idea should be removed, i think instead botj sides of the family need to think that those two are loosing thier marbles/going insanse, because at first that is a very, very logical response to the whole you know "we need to stop fighting, killing and hating each other beecause there is an invisble kingdom where this dragon keeps resetting everything and Garon is just a puppet, we're all just puppets we need to stop this!" ummmm, yeah kamui.....? are you okay?

then kamui like how it already is needs to run around and convince everyone to believe in them and join them, keeping the rest relatively the same.

Secondly i think They need to scrap the idea of two copies. Or fond some complicated way to link the two saves up via sd card or some bs because of what i said above honestly, this would be moved to above but it is very hard for me to edit on my phone [\s]

other details:

the kids (i think aqua's kid or kanna should explain it all like how Lucina explained her reason for being there in the story) should explain that they are from a fate ripped apart from the rest, like before hydra decided to only have the humans as his toys and make the world loop constantly. thus forcing thier existences into a pocket dimension (much like the ones the parents would be trapped in, seriously, thats what happened in higurashi minus the future kids) maybe have them appear in the third route, or fond some way to keep the pairings throught all routes [i think it would be interesting yet heart breaking in some cases like Ryoma or Marx's cases like if Kamui or Aqua were ro marry one of them] for the kids I think maybe more so have aqua's kid appear forst and if aqua doesnt have a support yet have him keep his father's identity a secret until she is married, so i think he is the best candidate to this.

the children break free and try to assist thier parents end it, succeed or not (unless throd path, then again i guess its a failure if you get a game over......yes im getting all quantum physics on you guys.)

The hoshido siblings relationship to the avatar needs to be different, same for aqua and the nohr family, mind you this part is before the time-loop actually begins. There needs to be memories even of they need to be locked away for a while due to scarring events at an early age (god im givjng these two lots of amnesia, but dont worry this amnesia goes away quickly this time). Have a scene even if blacked out to keep the addition small, that shows kamui used to know they werent related (i dont k ow how young kamui was but either a.) kamui was old enough to have memories meeting them, or b.) kamui was old enough to remember the hoshido siblings mother dying, even if its giving birth to sakura.

Either two can commect to tbis point: afterwards then have Kamui become the step-sibling, even if its fake, because honestly, i dont believe much time passed because kamui is still small and young when garon strikes, and the king would have to get re-married publicy, so why not lie and say hes married to mikoto so she and kamui can be safe with even more reason to have the royal guard, well guard the two. then the two can later fall in love. This period of time can allow kamui and the siblings to forge a strong bond, seeing kamui is alone, lost and confused due to thier memories being wiped and the hosido siblings loosing thier mother, which can allow them to become extremely close fast because of the hardships would pull them together, especially seeing its unlikely they would know and be able to be friends woth any other children thier age.

then (fake) garon strikes, and kamui and aqua (who i imagine goes through a similar process woth the nohr kids) which is ver scareing to witness and go through first hand and both the kids loose thier memories only to be recovered when kamui returns to hoshido and its explaind to them, maybe even have some trinkets to remind kamui about it , as a key almost, like toys/trinkets they all made together, as a promise to always be there for each other or some other cheesy adorable Baby hoshido family thing.

There should also be some fond memories on how the nohr family took in and became close to kamui and vise-versa just to make it even more hearat-wretching later

i know all of this is likely impossible, not saying it could happen/will happen. its more so a dream and story of mine, a little mental story i already started putting to the games before it even came out in Japan lol.

[spoiler= Edit 1: (still going back and reading through but i felt like i needed to say this)]

first off: MANY of you seem to be forgetting that (even though it isnt said direclty) hyrda is a very important character and is playing a MUCH BIGGER role than you make ot out to be, regardless if he is doing this in the shadows or not.

The point everyone seems to be forgetting about is that the world of fates IS WOTHOUT A DOUBT a pocked dimension itself, and the people are trapped there to fight the war continously so he can cotinue to watch man-kind suffer. There is no the end other than The third path because Aqua dying IS a symbol of everything being reset again. Im not sure what is implied by the end of the third path other than the apparent cutscene, but wouldnt the third path (even though it seems apparently rushed) make the two kindgoms relaize theyve been manipulated by a being, have gone theough shit together because of it. times like that would bring the rulers together, so a conlfict started by those rules or even the sexond generation wpuld be unlikely.

but more improtantly, why does everyone seem to fogrget Hydra's significance? yes from what I get its very subtle but when you think of it hes been manipulating them for years, heck he may have torn out his "heart" long ago or just finally did so he could torture the humans without having sympathy, he may even influenced the generations of hatred because he is old as dirt.

im not sitting here and trying to hate on anyone or anything like that, i just find it very, very, concerning that most of the time this isnt even addressed?

can we even take a step back to realize that the most recent skirmish was caused entirely by hydra? No one in Nohr (but technically the puppet) knew about this (unless i missed that info.) So literally there may not of been this war to this scale to be exact, espeically of the real garon used to be a more decent of a guy ten. yes they could still be fighting that could lead to a war, but they killed thier muchh beloved (from what i get from the snippets ive read, the counrty ADORED HER) queen ontop of the king (who i dont know of the country exactly adored but he wasnt portrayed as a nessecairly downrighy evil man either from the things ive read.).

THAT could cause anger beyond belief, i mean seeiously ONE, just one murder like that (helped) caused a world war, let alone TWO.

if i read correctly (seriously if i got all of this wrong please correct me) it was garon who did this but ultimately hydra who controlled the puppet

i mean i can see people being turned off by the simple black and white (grey?) countries, but just because hydra wasnt memtioned much and seems trown in doesnt nessecarily make it so, seriously, think about it, please.

it seems like so many of you are forgetting about all of this and it really bothers me that all of these intellegent people are overlooking this detail when postong about how things would change, because its still just as broken because of these otger details. or at least seems to me please correct me if im wrong.

by no means am o trying to upset anyone or insult everyone, i seriously find this worrying. Yeah i dotn really care about the black and white/gray if anything i kond of enjoy it almost as a metaphor, at points.

It just......bothers me. greatly.

EDIT 2: Im not regarding anyone who covers all points and makes sure everything makes sense. Its just some people are saying get rid of hydra and have NOTHING to say about how hydras role will be replaced/ people who say hydra is entirely unessecary because et again All of you are incredibly intellegent, but its not uncommon for really mart, good scientists for example to look over a detail on accident due to a focus on something seemingly entirely different, thats why you need to make sure you're covering everything, especially seeing most of you actually played it.

i dont know any japanese, especially not katakana, hiragana and kanji. I know the text for "no" (the japanese word not english, spanish, etc.) thats about it ^^;

secondly: I like alot of points being made by Nekoknight (im reading backwards)

Edited by Kuroki

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secondly: I like alot of points being made by Nekoknight (im reading backwards)

Kyaa, senpai noticed me!

Okie dokie, let's get into it.

oh wow so many pages x^x also this is really long so going into a spolier tag:

i am also very sorry if there are aome/alot of missed errors on this, its hard to correct things on my phone and in some cases i dont feel like potentially loosing everything I wrote overa typo or a capitailzation error.

First things first I hope the reason why its taking so long to even come out woth a release date IS to patch up the plot for the west, because i dont see too extreme of a problem woth it all, doesnt bother me much, instead I like to be able to fill those holes in myself for fic Ideas XD The JAPANESE version seems very shonen-manga in that way, throwing in "cool features" with minimal explanation.

I hope its patching rather than just a butt-ton of censoring

i dont think most of it is nessecary, thats what the ersb system is for and parents shouldnt be buying rated T or M stuff for kids anyway, so people need to stop complaining

Ive read a decent amount, yet a minimal amount of spoilers, so keep that in mind. the major plot points like the invisble kingdom and hyrda thing are all known by me.

[spoiler=shouldnt be spoliers for most of you, still tagging just in case]I know about hydra being kamui's dad, and how hydra got to be kamui's dad.

i know about the constant time loop

I know the truth about garon

yada yada yada you get the point by now. I know the general things just not the details of it all.

Personally, i think it might be the shonen-manga like appeal (if any of you are from Japan feel free to correct or even ridicule me for making this assumption) which is a general appeal that seems to honestly be more popular in japan by the general crowd, from what ive been told its normal for many people to pick up the weekly SJ even if they really arent too into manga/anime and like only 1-2 series.

THIS [\b] however does not appeal to most North Americans at least.

(Im only going to vouch for my loclaization area, mind you. I dont live in/know all about the culture of all countires other than Japan, so Im not going to pretend to know the general interests there. not sayingr i know much about Japan, I know thats just a thing)

So I do think change is needed HOWEVER I dont think any major changes are needed to the conquest and borth right routes

I personally think more things should be explained but also still leave the same amount of questions, heck make it even more confusing. FNAF sells all of its games for this reason, nintendo would benefit from the third route, espeically when people like being left woth questions like us, americans seem to, seriosuly people are addicted to trying to find more about the FNAF lore.

anyway here's my two sense, with what i said above in mind

[spoiler=There be many spoilers here]

First off I think the games needs to be alot like Higurashi no naku koro ni (& kai)

they Implemented the loop and pocket dimensions, now they need to utilize them!

Aqua/Azura NEEDS to be aware even if it takes until a certain chapter to be aware of this, much like Rika from higurashi espeically seeing she does everytime if the third route isnt completed. She also, like Kamui needs to NOT remember about the invisble kingdom, at first.

this needs to be realized later in the first choice of the playthrough, then during the second one with them obviously failing the first time because the followed birthright/conquest, Aqua/Azura and Kamui (after some prompting) needs to remembers what happened the first time.

they then try to prevent it by taking the side the player didnt choose at first, obviously remembering earlier on, within the first 6 chapters, determinded to not only set things right but to also maybe not loose anyone they hold dear and close. (maybe even make them both feel guilty and like ot was thier fault for not being able to prevent it, especially Aqua seeing she probably remembers all the times beforehand, with hinting at the stories being different the previous times before the games, yet again like rika)

now this is where things get complicated, especially if route 3 stays DLC, if the player doesnt have route 3 the game needs to force them to be stuck in it by making the two main characters NOT remember the first time/ w/e around then they go back to teh scratxhing booard and have you choose yet again.

if the invisible kingdom is included then this, or is purchased then when it comes to makig a choice the third time around (or whatever tome it ends up being if its dlc), both Kamui and Aqua are exaugshted from this and are honestly mentally scarred. this is where another charcter needs to become alot more important, Lilith (oh gods I hope i spelled her name right becauss i cant check atm). The two run away from the scene once declaring they will take neither side. Lilith then joins up with them as well, lilith holds both of thier memories/knowledge of the invisble kingdom, one she knows that they are aware of thier situations, she can also reveal how this came to be with minimal detail making players want to buy that dlc as well, hey nintendo can use the money [\s] she insists that both kingdoms need to come together and they need the fire emblem to help stop the heartless Hydra (maybe even somehow if possible involve the heart of hydra, that way hydra can return to himself and leave it so Kamui is still a prince/princess and let them be with whoever they want them to be with. (also plz make kamui and Azura not cousins by blood at least guys.)

anyway have this be the goal, (with maybe finding the "heart of hydra" this seriously sounds like kingdom hearts now ) that the heroes set off on.

the curse idea should be removed, i think instead botj sides of the family need to think that those two are loosing thier marbles/going insanse, because at first that is a very, very logical response to the whole you know "we need to stop fighting, killing and hating each other beecause there is an invisble kingdom where this dragon keeps resetting everything and Garon is just a puppet, we're all just puppets we need to stop this!" ummmm, yeah kamui.....? are you okay?

then kamui like how it already is needs to run around and convince everyone to believe in them and join them, keeping the rest relatively the same.

Secondly i think They need to scrap the idea of two copies. Or fond some complicated way to link the two saves up via sd card or some bs because of what i said above honestly, this would be moved to above but it is very hard for me to edit on my phone [\s]

other details:

the kids (i think aqua's kid or kanna should explain it all like how Lucina explained her reason for being there in the story) should explain that they are from a fate ripped apart from the rest, like before hydra decided to only have the humans as his toys and make the world loop constantly. thus forcing thier existences into a pocket dimension (much like the ones the parents would be trapped in, seriously, thats what happened in higurashi minus the future kids) maybe have them appear in the third route, or fond some way to keep the pairings throught all routes [i think it would be interesting yet heart breaking in some cases like Ryoma or Marx's cases like if Kamui or Aqua were ro marry one of them] for the kids I think maybe more so have aqua's kid appear forst and if aqua doesnt have a support yet have him keep his father's identity a secret until she is married, so i think he is the best candidate to this.

the children break free and try to assist thier parents end it, succeed or not (unless throd path, then again i guess its a failure if you get a game over......yes im getting all quantum physics on you guys.)

The hoshido siblings relationship to the avatar needs to be different, same for aqua and the nohr family, mind you this part is before the time-loop actually begins. There needs to be memories even of they need to be locked away for a while due to scarring events at an early age (god im givjng these two lots of amnesia, but dont worry this amnesia goes away quickly this time). Have a scene even if blacked out to keep the addition small, that shows kamui used to know they werent related (i dont k ow how young kamui was but either a.) kamui was old enough to have memories meeting them, or b.) kamui was old enough to remember the hoshido siblings mother dying, even if its giving birth to sakura.

Either two can commect to tbis point: afterwards then have Kamui become the step-sibling, even if its fake, because honestly, i dont believe much time passed because kamui is still small and young when garon strikes, and the king would have to get re-married publicy, so why not lie and say hes married to mikoto so she and kamui can be safe with even more reason to have the royal guard, well guard the two. then the two can later fall in love. This period of time can allow kamui and the siblings to forge a strong bond, seeing kamui is alone, lost and confused due to thier memories being wiped and the hosido siblings loosing thier mother, which can allow them to become extremely close fast because of the hardships would pull them together, especially seeing its unlikely they would know and be able to be friends woth any other children thier age.

then (fake) garon strikes, and kamui and aqua (who i imagine goes through a similar process woth the nohr kids) which is ver scareing to witness and go through first hand and both the kids loose thier memories only to be recovered when kamui returns to hoshido and its explaind to them, maybe even have some trinkets to remind kamui about it , as a key almost, like toys/trinkets they all made together, as a promise to always be there for each other or some other cheesy adorable Baby hoshido family thing.

There should also be some fond memories on how the nohr family took in and became close to kamui and vise-versa just to make it even more hearat-wretching later

i know all of this is likely impossible, not saying it could happen/will happen. its more so a dream and story of mine, a little mental story i already started putting to the games before it even came out in Japan lol.

[spoiler= Edit 1: (still going back and reading through but i felt like i needed to say this)]

first off: MANY of you seem to be forgetting that (even though it isnt said direclty) hyrda is a very important character and is playing a MUCH BIGGER role than you make ot out to be, regardless if he is doing this in the shadows or not.

The point everyone seems to be forgetting about is that the world of fates IS WOTHOUT A DOUBT a pocked dimension itself, and the people are trapped there to fight the war continously so he can cotinue to watch man-kind suffer. There is no the end other than The third path because Aqua dying IS a symbol of everything being reset again. Im not sure what is implied by the end of the third path other than the apparent cutscene, but wouldnt the third path (even though it seems apparently rushed) make the two kindgoms relaize theyve been manipulated by a being, have gone theough shit together because of it. times like that would bring the rulers together, so a conlfict started by those rules or even the sexond generation wpuld be unlikely.

but more improtantly, why does everyone seem to fogrget Hydra's significance? yes from what I get its very subtle but when you think of it hes been manipulating them for years, heck he may have torn out his "heart" long ago or just finally did so he could torture the humans without having sympathy, he may even influenced the generations of hatred because he is old as dirt.

im not sitting here and trying to hate on anyone or anything like that, i just find it very, very, concerning that most of the time this isnt even addressed?

can we even take a step back to realize that the most recent skirmish was caused entirely by hydra? No one in Nohr (but technically the puppet) knew about this (unless i missed that info.) So literally there may not of been this war to this scale to be exact, espeically of the real garon used to be a more decent of a guy ten. yes they could still be fighting that could lead to a war, but they killed thier muchh beloved (from what i get from the snippets ive read, the counrty ADORED HER) queen ontop of the king (who i dont know of the country exactly adored but he wasnt portrayed as a nessecairly downrighy evil man either from the things ive read.).

THAT could cause anger beyond belief, i mean seeiously ONE, just one murder like that (helped) caused a world war, let alone TWO.

if i read correctly (seriously if i got all of this wrong please correct me) it was garon who did this but ultimately hydra who controlled the puppet

i mean i can see people being turned off by the simple black and white (grey?) countries, but just because hydra wasnt memtioned much and seems trown in doesnt nessecarily make it so, seriously, think about it, please.

it seems like so many of you are forgetting about all of this and it really bothers me that all of these intellegent people are overlooking this detail when postong about how things would change, because its still just as broken because of these otger details. or at least seems to me please correct me if im wrong.

by no means am o trying to upset anyone or insult everyone, i seriously find this worrying. Yeah i dotn really care about the black and white/gray if anything i kond of enjoy it almost as a metaphor, at points.

It just......bothers me. greatly.

EDIT 2: Im not regarding anyone who covers all points and makes sure everything makes sense. Its just some people are saying get rid of hydra and have NOTHING to say about how hydras role will be replaced/ people who say hydra is entirely unessecary because et again All of you are incredibly intellegent, but its not uncommon for really mart, good scientists for example to look over a detail on accident due to a focus on something seemingly entirely different, thats why you need to make sure you're covering everything, especially seeing most of you actually played it.

i dont know any japanese, especially not katakana, hiragana and kanji. I know the text for "no" (the japanese word not english, spanish, etc.) thats about it ^^;

secondly: I like alot of points being made by Nekoknight (im reading backwards)

Concerning Kamui and the story reading like shonen manga

There is nothing really wrong with a shonen style protagonist, and I wouldn't describe them as unpopular in the west. It's really about how the story handles them. Fates' implementation of those tropes was lacking because Kamui doesn't develop enough as a character. A friendly, merciful guy who fights for his friends is a decent place to start, but he needs to change as the plot throws new things at him. People don't dislike shonen characters, they dislike static characters.

Concerning not having everything explained

Minimalism is a respectable direction to take a work, but that does need to be the intention. I love Shadow of the Colossus for (occasionally 'despite') its extremely minimalist setting. Who is Mono to Wander and how did she die? Is Dormin an evil being or was he legitimately trying to help wander? How did the colossi come to be, and was killing them an immoral thing? The story has charm because you can speculate and wonder how this world and characters all came together. Fates isn't that kind of story. Fates, like most Fire Emblem games TRIES to tell a complete world but then leaves out major sections which leads to plot holes and contrivances. For a plot driven game, you can't meet the exposition halfway. Things like antagonist motivations and key events (such as Kamui's kidnapping) need to be discussed to make us care.

Concerning the reason people don't like Hydra

Well, the thing is, most people are going to want him to have more nuanced motivations. "I want to make humanity suffer and destroy the world because I'm evil and crazy" is about as boring and cliche as it gets. Let's look at some of the other villains in the series. Zephiel (FE6) grows to hate humanity because of his extremely abusive father and ultimately decides the world would be in better hands with the dragons. Nergal (FE7) was originally a decent human being but his pursuit for power corrupted him and he eventually forgot his reasons for seeking power in the first place. Lyon (FE8) foresaw a great disaster and his reckless efforts to save his people led him to being possessed by the Demon King. These villains have a human element that gets people interested. Hydra is just crazy. As far as Hydra being integral to the plot, he only matters because the writers shoehorned him into the other routes to build up the DLC 3rd route. Everything Hydra does could easily be merged with other characters and nothing would change.

Concerning time loop shenanigans

I...don't think there is anything in the canon to suggest time loops but that's an interesting direction you could take it. Aqua having incomplete knowledge (like Rika in Higurashi) would solve the problem of her not doing the right thing the first time around. A Higurashi style retelling of the Fates story could be really compelling. It could be like the Big Bad of Higurashi but with Hanyuu's powers. I suggest you go through your post again and reorganize your thoughts so they are easier to discuss.

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Time travel and alternate dimensions are far too over the top for Fire Emblem. It's not a coincidence that a noticeable amount of the worst narratives in Fire Emblem included elements like those two or kingdom destroying pieces of paper.

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Hydra wasn't always crazy though, which is the point of the Invisible History DLC. I happen to not find horrid for going into more detail of Hydra's past, but it dropped the ball so hard it turned into an eye monstrosity concerning the Awakening Trio getting involved in the story.

But yeah the third path one is shown to be pretty "Cray Cray" and they should have not made IH separate DLC. Lilith and the Awakening Trio should have had more of a role on the IK path as well.

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Hey guys, I finished making a map! Well, not making a map, more like crappily editing the pre-existing one...whelp. here it is! Please bear in mind that the borders are extremely sloppy/rough, not my best work...

[spoiler=The Map]

post-17145-0-97303300-1443611671_thumb.jpg

The borders in the Eastern half are straight forward enough, but the ones in Nohrian territory are colour-coded; black ones represent borders controlled by Nohr and red ones are borders that aren't. As for the different mapped out lands themselves:

Country/Isle/Tribe name- Self explanatory

Infinite Chasm- Also self explanatory

Pathway- The main bridges/route from one end of the Infinite Chasm to the other. While there are several different ways you can get across the Infinite Chasm, there is only one actual entrance/exit on either end. This is because both Nohr and Hoshido deliberately collapsed all but one entrance on their sides so that a) the only way into their territory would be through one heavily-monitored/fortified entrance and b) so that they can still get their own troops through the entrance to man the various fortresses doting the Infinite Chasm.

Crossroad- Neutral territory inbetween the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies used as a highway for travel and as an important trade route.

Wilderness- Also neutral territory inbetween the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies, but mostly because the whole thing is a gigantic rainforest that has no colonisation value since the trees are so stupidly strong that you'll break any cutting tool you use before making any decent headway. There are also rumours that the Earth Tribe dwells within the darkest depths of the forest. These rumours are...half-right.

Nohrian Empire- Various countries that have been conquered and occupied by Nohr.

Garou Peaks- A series of mountains controlled by the Garous (I know, what a shocker).

Holy Lands- Nobody knows exactly what the Holy Lands are like, knowing only that those who venture their never return or contact the outside world ever again. Previously regarded with superstitious fear by all, this changed when an old and respected priest returned from a voyage their and stated that those who journey to what would become known as the 'Holy Lands' would find 'perfect enlightenment' before dissapearing just as suddenly as he appeared. After this revelation, while the other Eastern Kingdoms remain suspicious, the Hoshidans took the priests word for it and now journey to the Holy Lands after they reach their twilight years. Of course, nobody else has ever returned to verify this information, so...

Tabora Desert- The third most inhosphitable landscape on the continent, the Tabora Desert features blisteringly hot day hours and chillingly cold night hours (as deserts are want to do). In addition to the environment, their are several deadly diseases (carried mostly by mosquitoes)and ferocious predators that are unique to its environment. However, the entire area is rich with mineral resources, so Nohr is more than willing to take the risks (especially since most of the workers are convicted criminals or captured resistance fighters).

The Frozen Wastes- The second most inhosphitable landscape on the continent, the Frozen Wastes are...well, the Frozen Wastelands towards the North of the Nohrian Empire. Freezing cold temperatures even at the peak of summer and, again, dangerous and unique predators that would have no qualms about devouring humans make the region extremely dangerous. However, the Frozen Wastes lack any resource that would make even prison colonies worth establishing and attempts to tame the predators...have not ended prettily. However, it was a popular method of execution in the Northern countries (before they were conquered) to banish the criminals into the wastes with no food, water or clothing to die to either the elements or a carnivor.

The Great Blight- The most inhosphitable lanscape on the continent. The Great Blight used to be the area of Nohr that the Dark Dragons reserved for themselves, because it was the biggest and one of the only sources of fresh water in the country. Unfortunately, this was the place where most of the Dark Dragons were slain and thus, where their bodies were buried and decayed. As a result of the Dark Dragons lingering presence for thousands of years, being the location for countless dark magic experiments and a mass grave for the afformented dragons, the land is so saturated with dark magic that it is literally impossible for anything other than a Dark Dragon or Anankos to live there. The water has become tainted and melts through everything like acid in a Hollywood movie, the soil is poisonous and compeltely devoid of the necessary minerals and nutrients to grow plants and even the air itself is so toxic that any organic matter that crosses the boundary without extensive magical protection will wither and rot in seconds. However, there are research stations lining said boundary dedicated to finding a way to harness the dark magic that permeates the land. In fact, one rather bright (and very twisted) Sorcerer found a way to produce a deadly poison from the water that is lethal within the hour of exposure and has no cure.

Whelp, that's it from me for now, back to writing for the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies.

Edited by Phillius

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An angle that I see as being understated in this thread is Rinka's culture's history with other Easterners. Considering the history of the Ainu, you could note Hoshidan forces invading land used by Rinka's culture or others, among other situations such as a plague spreading.

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Hey guys, I finished making a map! Well, not making a map, more like crappily editing the pre-existing one...whelp. here it is! Please bear in mind that the borders are extremely sloppy/rough, not my best work...

[spoiler=The Map]

attachicon.giffefates-worldmap2-1.jpg

[spoiler=Map Lore]

The borders in the Eastern half are straight forward enough, but the ones in Nohrian territory are colour-coded; black ones represent borders controlled by Nohr and red ones are borders that aren't. As for the different mapped out lands themselves:

Country/Isle/Tribe name- Self explanatory

Infinite Chasm- Also self explanatory

Pathway- The main bridges/route from one end of the Infinite Chasm to the other. While there are several different ways you can get across the Infinite Chasm, there is only one actual entrance/exit on either end. This is because both Nohr and Hoshido deliberately collapsed all but one entrance on their sides so that a) the only way into their territory would be through one heavily-monitored/fortified entrance and b) so that they can still get their own troops through the entrance to man the various fortresses doting the Infinite Chasm.

Crossroad- Neutral territory inbetween the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies used as a highway for travel and as an important trade route.

Wilderness- Also neutral territory inbetween the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies, but mostly because the whole thing is a gigantic rainforest that has no colonisation value since the trees are so stupidly strong that you'll break any cutting tool you use before making any decent headway. There are also rumours that the Earth Tribe dwells within the darkest depths of the forest. These rumours are...half-right.

Nohrian Empire- Various countries that have been conquered and occupied by Nohr.

Garou Peaks- A series of mountains controlled by the Garous (I know, what a shocker).

Holy Lands- Nobody knows exactly what the Holy Lands are like, knowing only that those who venture their never return or contact the outside world ever again. Previously regarded with superstitious fear by all, this changed when an old and respected priest returned from a voyage their and stated that those who journey to what would become known as the 'Holy Lands' would find 'perfect enlightenment' before dissapearing just as suddenly as he appeared. After this revelation, while the other Eastern Kingdoms remain suspicious, the Hoshidans took the priests word for it and now journey to the Holy Lands after they reach their twilight years. Of course, nobody else has ever returned to verify this information, so...

Tabora Desert- The third most inhosphitable landscape on the continent, the Tabora Desert features blisteringly hot day hours and chillingly cold night hours (as deserts are want to do). In addition to the environment, their are several deadly diseases (carried mostly by mosquitoes)and ferocious predators that are unique to its environment. However, the entire area is rich with mineral resources, so Nohr is more than willing to take the risks (especially since most of the workers are convicted criminals or captured resistance fighters).

The Frozen Wastes- The second most inhosphitable landscape on the continent, the Frozen Wastes are...well, the Frozen Wastelands towards the North of the Nohrian Empire. Freezing cold temperatures even at the peak of summer and, again, dangerous and unique predators that would have no qualms about devouring humans make the region extremely dangerous. However, the Frozen Wastes lack any resource that would make even prison colonies worth establishing and attempts to tame the predators...have not ended prettily. However, it was a popular method of execution in the Northern countries (before they were conquered) to banish the criminals into the wastes with no food, water or clothing to die to either the elements or a carnivor.

The Great Blight- The most inhosphitable lanscape on the continent. The Great Blight used to be the area of Nohr that the Dark Dragons reserved for themselves, because it was the biggest and one of the only sources of fresh water in the country. Unfortunately, this was the place where most of the Dark Dragons were slain and thus, where their bodies were buried and decayed. As a result of the Dark Dragons lingering presence for thousands of years, being the location for countless dark magic experiments and a mass grave for the afformented dragons, the land is so saturated with dark magic that it is literally impossible for anything other than a Dark Dragon or Anankos to live there. The water has become tainted and melts through everything like acid in a Hollywood movie, the soil is poisonous and compeltely devoid of the necessary minerals and nutrients to grow plants and even the air itself is so toxic that any organic matter that crosses the boundary without extensive magical protection will wither and rot in seconds. However, there are research stations lining said boundary dedicated to finding a way to harness the dark magic that permeates the land. In fact, one rather bright (and very twisted) Sorcerer found a way to produce a deadly poison from the water that is lethal within the hour of exposure and has no cure.

Whelp, that's it from me for now, back to writing for the Eastern Kingdoms/Duchies.

Sounds good so far. I had a chuckle at the desert and frozen wastes not being the worst places to be.

Some comments:

-I feel like too much of the eastern half of the continent is neutral. If the jungle has no crops to harvest, and the crossroads are neutral, how much of that area even supports extensive agriculture? Hoshido proper doesn't seem large enough by itself to match off against Nohr (although, that could be the point).

- (going by the playable map) The pathway between Nohr and Hoshido seems... too impractical for large armies to pass through. How would any invasion begin unless it was naval? How did Marx and his soldiers get past the Hoshidan soldiers at the border if it's so well fortified?

An angle that I see as being understated in this thread is Rinka's culture's history with other Easterners. Considering the history of the Ainu, you could note Hoshidan forces invading land used by Rinka's culture or others, among other situations such as a plague spreading.

This should definitely be explored. Looking at Phillius' map, there could be some special significance to the fire tribe being between Hoshido and the holy lands.

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