Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Gomez_Addams]

In practice, the Big Choice of Fates is ''Stick with Invading War Crimes Happy Nohr VS Join Innocent Glorious NipponHoshido That Does Nothing Wrong''. I'm trying to get away from that.

By going too far in the opposite direction, it seems. Just because one extreme is not good, doesn't mean the opposite extreme is good.

[Alazen]

And what ''extreme'' is that?

[Gomez_Addams]

And what ''extreme'' is that?

Making the main character unlikable and unsympathetic.

This is Fire Emblem, not God of War. Even in the most grimdark games in the series (4 & 5), the heroes are still paragons of nobility. Can you imagine Reptor offering Sigurd wealth and lands if he betrayed his allies and joined the conspiracy against the crown, and Sigurd saying "yes"?

[astrophys]

The big choice more accurately boils down to:

"do I side with the people who I have been raised with my entire life and whom I have thus grown quite close to on a personal level, like a family, or do I leave them because their father tried to get me killed in a trap that ended up killing my actual birth mother as well, such that I can no longer bring myself to fight for a country ruled by him, even if it means turning against those who've I've looked upon as brothers and sisters for most of my life"

[Alazen]

Sigurd serves as a tool for Grannvale's conquest spree (with Lewyn calling him out for that) and gets roasted after outliving his role. Leif gets a large chunk of his army killed through an assault that both of his advisers said not to do, and shows himself to be an ignorant brat (''Can't those lousy Thracians get jobs?''). Seliph is the odd one out here but he's apparently more willing to do what his adviser advises than Leif is.

A lead might have to be likable, but sympathetic? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't call Macbeth or even Arthas Menetheil sympathetic.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Sigurd serves as a tool for Grannvale's conquest spree (with Lewyn calling him out for that) and gets roasted after outliving his role. Leif gets a large chunk of his army killed through an assault that both of his advisers said not to do. Seliph is the odd one out here but he's apparently more willing to do what his his adviser advises than Leif is.

A lead might have to be likable, but sympathetic? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't call Macbeth or even Arthas Menetheil sympathetic.

I said they were paragons of nobility. I never said they were smart.

The fact remains that making Kamui greedy, envious, self-serving, and ambitious is NOT the way to go. I don't want to play through the game with Lekain or Narcian as the main character.

[Alazen]

You're really using a character like Lekain?

[NekoKnight]

Well first off, I'm going with the angle that Garon never really bothered to treat Kamui as if he was one of his own children while still not having Fake Garon. Sure, his highness wasn't going around punching the tears out Kamui but Garon was the one who had Kamui taken after Sumeragi's assassination. Garon had Kamui kept in a position for him to be influenced by himself, his actual children, and subordinates while still ''keeping the brat in his place'' as one could call it. Whether it was telling Kamui sit at a separate table from the royal children or something else. It was whispered Kamui is a bastard child of Garon's, hence keeping him so close yet so distant.

This is similar to what I had in mind, albeit for less mean spirited reasons. The King Garon in my story wanted Kamui to be loyal to him, but at the same time keep him a bit distant so he doesn't have any illusions about being a full member of his family.That's why Kamui kept his Hoshidan name. The Nohrian siblings are aware that he's not their blood sibling but they grew attached to him all the same.

[Neofranky]

Sigurd serves as a tool for Grannvale's conquest spree (with Lewyn calling him out for that) and gets roasted after outliving his role. Leif gets a large chunk of his army killed through an assault that both of his advisers said not to do, and shows himself to be an ignorant brat (''Can't those lousy Thracians get jobs?''). Seliph is the odd one out here but he's apparently more willing to do what his adviser advises than Leif is.

A lead might have to be likable, but sympathetic? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't call Macbeth or even Arthas Menetheil sympathetic.

If I recall correctly, Lief had two advisers in Thracia and one actually suggested the assault (the one without an arm) and died on it.

While Seliph was more willing to do what he was told, Seliph near the end of the game also admitted he was kind of apathetic to the whole situation because he didn't felt like he was a noble fit for the crown, being born and raised in Issac and all, he was just following the role others prepared for him.

I think what Fates really needed was to Paint Nohr in a slightly less evil light and not to be too biased towards Hoshido. I am still amazed how the game supposedly alludes to Hoshido brainwashing people into being tame and no one bats an eye.

[Alazen]

No, both advisers opposed attacking Alster. Dorias pointed out they didn't have the manpower and August agreed with him. Leif of couse did not.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Alazen

[Time the Crestfallen]

@Alazen: Do you think you could list some of your Kamui's redeeming traits? Having an ambitious and shady Kamui could work, but if he doesn't have any positive qualities, I'm afraid he'll just come across as an unlikable jackass.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Phillius

[Alazen]

1. Is willing to get his hands dirty.

2. Looks after his troops, lackeys, what have you. If only from internalizing noblesse oblige.

3. Can be depended on to try to get the job done with gusto.

Maybe not ''positive'', but still.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Okay, and what about character development? How do they change over the course of the story?

[Alazen]

What Path are we talking?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Erm...I assume you're not doing Touma, so both Nohr and Hoshido would be good.

[NekoKnight]

1. Is willing to get his hands dirty.

2. Looks after his troops, lackeys, what have you. If only from internalizing noblesse oblige.

3. Can be depended on to try to get the job done with gusto.

Maybe not ''positive'', but still.

To me, those read as "ruthless". You might want to work on the "endearing" traits of the character. It sounds like you are writing a villain character.

[Alazen]

Erm...I assume you're not doing Touma, so both Nohr and Hoshido would be good.

Well actually, I've thought of including Touma as Hydra's fiefdom. I've also thought of a scenario where Kamui announces himself king in the burnt capital of Hoshido (it is after all, his land).

To me, those read as "ruthless". You might want to work on the "endearing" traits of the character. It sounds like you are writing a villain character.

In case you didn't tell, I'm trying to find a way to warrant Kamui turning on the kingdom he was raised in early on without blatantly marking Nohr as the ''wrong'' side. Mikoto and Co. being of his blood isn't enough.

[NekoKnight]

Well actually, I've thought of including Touma as Hydra's fiefdom. I've also thought of a scenario where Kamui announces himself king in the burnt capital of Hoshido (it is after all, his land).

In case you didn't tell, I'm trying to find a way to warrant Kamui turning on the kingdom he was raised in early on without blatantly marking Nohr as the ''wrong'' side. Mikoto and Co. being of his blood isn't enough.

I understand but in your version, siding with Hoshido would make Kamui a selfish and opportunistic asshole. You aren't making Nohr good, you're making Kamui bad.

The game already has plenty of reasons to side with Hoshido. Mikoto and the others being his blood relatives is only one point. What needs more creative effort is the redeeming qualities of Nohr.

[Alazen]

I understand but in your version, siding with Hoshido would make Kamui a selfish and opportunistic asshole.

And the problem is....?

You aren't making Nohr good, you're making Kamui bad.

Neither nation should be ''good'' with the other ''evil''.

The game already has plenty of reasons to side with Hoshido. Mikoto and the others being his blood relatives is only one point. What needs more creative effort is the redeeming qualities of Nohr.

Tell me what those ''plenty'' are without Garon or another Nohrian being a cartoon villain or Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

The problem is, no one wants to follow the story of a character devoid of endearing qualities. You denounced the comparison to Lekain but your Kamui doesn't sound much different than your typical FE villain. Power hungry and self-absorbed.

As for why you would side with Hoshido:

1. They are a peaceful country, that hasn't done anything to deserve being invaded by Nohr.

2. Garon kills both of your parents and kidnaps you.

3. You have your real family and a chance to return to your "real" life back in bountiful Hoshido.

Garon doesn't need to be the baby-eating, mustache twirler and Hoshido can have its own problems (an inflexible caste system has been suggested), but as far as the choice is concerned, there is a lot of things to go for in Hoshido that DON'T require Kamui becoming an unlikable jerk.

[Alazen]

Lekain is a mass murderer. You're really stretching the Lekain comparison.

And Hoshido being a peaceful country that hasn't done anything to deserve being invaded is in Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong (no pre-industrial nation that large is ''peaceful'' in that it has no coercion of inner and/or outside parties). The other 2 should be retooled.

It looks like you've figured that I'm sticking with Fates' early narrative direction beyond the premise. I'm not.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alazen

[Gomez_Addams]

Lekain is a mass murderer. You're really stretching the Lekain comparison.

And Hoshido being a peaceful country that hasn't done anything to deserve being invaded is in Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong (no pre-industrial nation that large is ''peaceful'' in that it has no coercion of inner and/or outside parties). The other 2 should be retooled.

It looks like you've figured that I'm sticking with Fates' early narrative direction beyond the premise. I'm not.

Yes, your Kamui may be a treasonous, powermad, greedy shithead, but at least he isn't a mass murderer!

[Time the Crestfallen]

On a different note, I'd like to talk about some changes I'd like to make to Azura. While her in-game personality (i.e. quiet and reserved, but affectionate once you get to know her, loves singing/dancing, likes horror, melancholic and a bit of a troll to Sakura) is still all there, I'm considering adding some new traits.

[spoiler=New Traits]

To contrast Kamui's idealism, Azura has a much more cynical worldview and assumes the worst of the people around her. To elaborate, the catalyst for her downbeat worldview was (naturally) her mother dying. When she was being bullied by the concubines and even though she never talked about it, Shenmei suspected and tried to tell her that they're just good people forced to deal with poor life circumstances (she was actually absolutely livid, she just didn't want it to affect Azura). Of course, as soon as Shenmei died, all the supposedly 'simply misguided' concubines started tearing each other apart to be Garon's new favourite, killing their rivals children and each other until only five children were left. Fast forward about six years when she's in Hoshido and starts to become aware of Hoshido's flaws. Shenmei told her that the people in Nohr only did bad things because they were raised in poor circumstances and felt like they needed to do such things in order to survive, which made her question why the people of Hoshido, who have every advantage in the world, still show many of them same behaviours i.e. the Nobles constantly competing with each other for power in very underhanded and messed up policies towards foreigners (Nohr conquers everything they can while people who immigrate to Hoshido are treated as Second-Class citizens). This led her to conclude that it is inevitable that the strong will exploit and mistreat the weak and the that people willing to do the right thing will always come second to those willing to do anything to get ahead.

In addition, during her time in Nohr, Shenmei quickly learnt of her abuse at the hands of the concubines and talked about it to Garon, who made it abundantly clear that anyone who harassed Azura would be banished. Of course, some of them found a way around this by having their children do the bullying instead (none of the four in-game siblings did it). While the other children were forbidden from being around her, they were kind enough on occasion, but they followed the orders of their parents nevertheless and made her life miserable. This also reached its conclusion during her time in Hoshido when she met people who didn't believe that foreigners should be treated the way they are, but went along with it because of social pressures and servants to Hoshidan Nobles who do very shady actions that they don't agree with because they were ordered to. Because of this, she belives that people can be good on an individual level but won't act like it because of peer/social pressure, orders from a superior or their desire for success in lives is more important to them then their ideals and assumes that everyone she meets will act in a selfish and despicable manner until they prove otherwise. How does she cope with such a pessimistic worldview? I'm glad you asked!

She drinks. I'm still working on the specifics, but while Kamui is 18 she is either 20 or 21, so she's been of legal drinking age long enough to have developed a case of mild alcoholism. In fact, it's because of her drinking that the Nohrian sibling she bonds with the quickest is Camilla, who has similar problems with alcohol (albeit for different reasons).

So what do you guys think? Good idea or should I scrap it.

[NekoKnight]

Lekain is a mass murderer. You're really stretching the Lekain comparison.

And Hoshido being a peaceful country that hasn't done anything to deserve being invaded is in Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong (no pre-industrial nation that large is ''peaceful'' in that it has no coercion of inner and/or outside parties). The other 2 should be retooled.

It looks like you've figured that I'm sticking with Fates' early narrative direction beyond the premise. I'm not.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what Hoshido did to deserve being invaded then. At any rate, a deeply unsympathetic (Kamui is betraying people who raised and loved him for the majority of his life, for personal gain) protagonist isn't fun to read. And least for villain protagonists like Light Yagami and Walter White, their struggles with the other elements in the series make them entertaining.

It's your story, so I won't tell you you can't do it the way you want, but the premise you are suggesting doesn't seem very popular around here.

On a different note, I'd like to talk about some changes I'd like to make to Azura. While her in-game personality (i.e. quiet and reserved, but affectionate once you get to know her, loves singing/dancing, likes horror, melancholic and a bit of a troll to Sakura) is still all there, I'm considering adding some new traits.

[spoiler=New Traits]

To contrast Kamui's idealism, Azura has a much more cynical worldview and assumes the worst of the people around her. To elaborate, the catalyst for her downbeat worldview was (naturally) her mother dying. When she was being bullied by the concubines and even though she never talked about it, Shenmei suspected and tried to tell her that they're just good people forced to deal with poor life circumstances (she was actually absolutely livid, she just didn't want it to affect Azura). Of course, as soon as Shenmei died, all the supposedly 'simply misguided' concubines started tearing each other apart to be Garon's new favourite, killing their rivals children and each other until only five children were left. Fast forward about six years when she's in Hoshido and starts to become aware of Hoshido's flaws. Shenmei told her that the people in Nohr only did bad things because they were raised in poor circumstances and felt like they needed to do such things in order to survive, which made her question why the people of Hoshido, who have every advantage in the world, still show many of them same behaviours i.e. the Nobles constantly competing with each other for power in very underhanded and messed up policies towards foreigners (Nohr conquers everything they can while people who immigrate to Hoshido are treated as Second-Class citizens). This led her to conclude that it is inevitable that the strong will exploit and mistreat the weak and the that people willing to do the right thing will always come second to those willing to do anything to get ahead.

In addition, during her time in Nohr, Shenmei quickly learnt of her abuse at the hands of the concubines and talked about it to Garon, who made it abundantly clear that anyone who harassed Azura would be banished. Of course, some of them found a way around this by having their children do the bullying instead (none of the four in-game siblings did it). While the other children were forbidden from being around her, they were kind enough on occasion, but they followed the orders of their parents nevertheless and made her life miserable. This also reached its conclusion during her time in Hoshido when she met people who didn't believe that foreigners should be treated the way they are, but went along with it because of social pressures and servants to Hoshidan Nobles who do very shady actions that they don't agree with because they were ordered to. Because of this, she belives that people can be good on an individual level but won't act like it because of peer/social pressure, orders from a superior or their desire for success in lives is more important to them then their ideals and assumes that everyone she meets will act in a selfish and despicable manner until they prove otherwise. How does she cope with such a pessimistic worldview? I'm glad you asked!

She drinks. I'm still working on the specifics, but while Kamui is 18 she is either 20 or 21, so she's been of legal drinking age long enough to have developed a case of mild alcoholism. In fact, it's because of her drinking that the Nohrian sibling she bonds with the quickest is Camilla, who has similar problems with alcohol (albeit for different reasons).

So what do you guys think? Good idea or should I scrap it.

To be honest, I think Aqua has a well defined personality and the only reason she's disliked is because of her forced mysteriousness (ie plot holes triggered by the 3rd route). I feel like making her cynical and secretly depressed would be taking away from other characters who deserve it more (Camilla, as you mentioned). Also, considering the pre-modern setting, they probably don't have strict limitations on what age you are able to drink.

[Time the Crestfallen]

To be honest, I think Aqua has a well defined personality and the only reason she's disliked is because of her forced mysteriousness (ie plot holes triggered by the 3rd route). I feel like making her cynical and secretly depressed would be taking away from other characters who deserve it more (Camilla, as you mentioned). Also, considering the pre-modern setting, they probably don't have strict limitations on what age you are able to drink.

Maybe, but all the royals have different issues with varying degrees of severity and cope with it in different ways, with Azura and Camilla being the ones who drink:

[spoiler=Azura]

-Azura has problems opening up to people, so she doesn't have anyone she can talk about her issues to (the only Hoshidan Royal she considers herself close enough to for that is Sakura, who she actively hides her inner sadness from) and drinks for comfort.

[spoiler=Camilla]

-Camilla is commonly upheld as an ideal that all Nohrians should strive to emulate i.e. intelligent, graceful, beautiful, fashionable, kind to her allies but merciless to her enemies, as skilled on the battlefield as she is in the courts and so on. However, the stress of maintaining her physical health and being skilled with magic, axes and wyvern riding and keeping up with the ever-changing fashion of Nohr and constantly keeping up to date with all the social cues of the courts and maintaining a network of friends and allies AND still having to find the time to look after her younger siblings quickly adds up, so she drinks to to unwind and became overly reliant on it to relax.

[spoiler=Xander]

-Xander is torn between doing what is best for Nohr and following Garon's orders (as in canon), but he more frequently subverts his fathers commands in my rewrite, but is unable to shake the feeling that he is betraying his father and vents by doing very violent training whenever he goes against Garon's wishes.

[spoiler=Leo]

-Leo was constantly pushed by his mother to be perfect at all times and even after her death, is constantly pushing himself to fulfill her unreasonably high standards. Also, while he does consider the other Nohrian Royals to be his family, his mother refused to let him interact with any of Garon's other children and he has trouble with interacting with them for large lengths of time and prefers to keep to himself, even though he very much desires a closer familial relationship with them. However, he has one of the healthiest coping methods; he gets a cup of green tea, lights some scented candles and reads novels in his room.

[spoiler=Elise/Sakura]

-Elise and Sakura considers themselves useless in comparison to their siblings and think that they're dead weight in a battle. However, they haven't had these concerns for long enough for it to be as much of a problem as it is for others.

[spoiler=Takumi]

-Takumi has similar problems with feeling useless compared to his siblings, but his is a much more serious case. In terms of reputation, Ryoma is known for personifying the Code of Bushido and is an example of what all Samurai should strive to be like, Hinoka gets some critisism for being somewhat tactless, but is praised for her straightforward and honest nature while Takumi is known for being rather antisocial (his support with Sakura shows that he fakes illness to get out of social events) and a bit of a jerk (he's very kind when with people he knows, but he tends to come across as dismissive and irritable when talking to strangers). In addition to this, Hoshido often has an annual event in which that Samurai cast and skilled Nobles enter a tournament to demonstrate their prowess with seperate brackets for each weapon type. While Ryoma cleaned up the Sword Tournament so thoroughly that he had to start competing with a Bronze Katana instead of the standard Iron Weapons and Hinoka reliably places in the top three of the Lance Tournament, Takumi struggles to crack the top 10 for the Yumi Tournament, but there's a legitimate reason for this i.e. using the Fuujin Yumi is radically different from using an Iron Yumi (the Fuujin Yumi weighs much more than an Iron Yumi, his draw-and-nock is sloppy because he doesn't have to do it while using the Fuujin Yumi and the 'arrows of light' don't have drop off, which messes up his aim over long distances). While he did do well in one tournament after constant practice, it interferred with his ability to use the Fuujin Yumi because he was so used to accounting for things that he didn't have to such as instinctively reaching for his quiver and accounting for drop off. In fact, his ability to use the Fuujin Yumi without any issues is a testament to how skilled he is, he simply doesn't give himself enough credit. He copes with meditation and, similarly to Leo, has one of the better methods of dealing with his problems.

[spoiler=Ryoma/Hinoka]

Ryoma and Hinoka...err...I'll get back to you on them.

[spoiler=Kamui]

As for Kamui, my take on him is basically a walking example from a psychology textbook on PTSD and Parential Abuse and, well, he writes down his feelings in a journal, but doesn't really do anything about his problems other than bottle them up and ignore them (unsurprisingly, he's the least mentally well-adjusted out of all the siblings).

But do you want to know they these issues? When they come to light, they help each other, because that's what families do. They support each other and do their best to help each other work through their issues regardless of how difficult it might be because regardless of blood-relations, they're a family and they can rely on each other (except for Kamui, for whom one of the many, many unhealthy mindsets that Garon instilled in him was to never open up about or discuss his issues with anyone, but that's another thing entirely).

Edited October 9, 2015 by Phillius