Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Probably because being dead gives you better insight. Like the fact that he didn't actually do the killing of Mikoto. Something that Mikoto knows because she protected him from the real perpetrator. Ryouma sepukku to protect Kamui since Garon and Iago would have him executed otherwise and realized Hinoka and Sakura were still alive. Though if you consider how he passed on it likely means Takumis hatred remained in his corpse (As that's why Hydra was able to possess him in the first place and the corpse is filled with hatred) since emotions are sometimes believed to remain even if the soul is gone. So he was able to let go of those feelings with his death. Again, letting go of a negative feeling doesn't mean that you're going to be completely fine with them. There are people who have been wronged by someone in some way, who choose to try to forgive who wronged them instead of letting the hatred and anger consume them. But just because they forgive that person doesn't mean they want to have anything to do any longer with that person or will let them back in their lives. Why couldn't this have been a case like that? Where yes, he does let go of his feelings but there's been too much damage done to just be completely cool with him? Also, Ryouma could've committed seppuku not to save Kamui but because if he was going to die he was going out on his own terms. I just don't see why all of the siblings had to forgive Kamui to that extreme. Forgive because they don't want to let hatred consume them, yes. Forgive to the point of "I still love you and wish things could've been different"? That … just leaves a very poor taste in my mouth and reeks of player pandering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Eh different tastes. I for one have a bigger problem with the Hoshido bias than those things. Also in the end since the dead seem to all be together it's more than likely Mikoto told Takumi what happened. Thus he was able to let go anyways. Before while his paranoia was justified to a degree, he still displays distrusts towards Aqua even before Mikotos death despite having been raised with her and it takes being freed of Iagos brainwashing to make him calm down. He saw Mikoto as a mother and thus assumed he betrayed Hoshido by causing her death, which is clearly not the case. The fact that Kamui saves and spares them at some points should have been a clue, but his distrust always got the better of him. It's the same reason why Izana gives up what little life he has from his wounds to convince Takumi to trust Kamui on Invisible Kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) And I don't even understand why Izana drops dead in the third route. Honestly, there were better ways of getting Takumi to join Kamui on the third route besides Izana randomly kicking it for ???, such as having him join because he's concerned about Sakura. Honestly, I think both all three stories just need a complete overhaul. Edited July 22, 2015 by Sunwoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deviddo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I don't know much about what this spoiler is, I'm avoiding spoilers for the most part, but I think I heard someone say something like this before so let me provide my two cents, as well as guess like nobodys' business about what the issue is. If the problem is that The Avatar character isn't actually blood related to Hoshido then that's not false advertising. It's called a plot twist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) I don't know much about what this spoiler is, I'm avoiding spoilers for the most part, but I think I heard someone say something like this before so let me provide my two cents, as well as guess like nobodys' business about what the issue is. If the problem is that The Avatar character isn't actually blood related to Hoshido then that's not false advertising. It's called a plot twist. Vader being Luke's father is a plot twist. While Kamui's parentage is plot relevant, him not even being half siblings to the Hoshidans is contrary to the advertised premise of Hoshido. It's not even relevant unless you play the 3rd path. Edited July 22, 2015 by NekoKnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soapbar Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I don't know much about what this spoiler is, I'm avoiding spoilers for the most part, but I think I heard someone say something like this before so let me provide my two cents, as well as guess like nobodys' business about what the issue is. If the problem is that The Avatar character isn't actually blood related to Hoshido then that's not false advertising. It's called a plot twist. A plot twist is expected to relevant to the plot though. This is only brought up in certain S-supports and is never brought up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 A plot twist is expected to relevant to the plot though. This is only brought up in certain S-supports and is never brought up again. I think it's mentioned in the records as well. (not saying it's an excuse, just trying to remember where it's said...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yari Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I might be biased towards this (after all Ryoma is THE Fates husbando for me) but part of me is happy that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to Kamui. But I think it would be better if it was a legit plot twist like the S support would be locked (wouldn't show up in the support log) until a certain point in the story when Kamui would find out they aren't his/hers blood siblings and the S support unlocks after that. I think people would complain less if it were that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadiantDragon Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Au contraire, I would have vastly preferred an imperfect conclusion, as you phrased it. If the third path had been removed entirely, the choice would've had a lot more weight behind it and more time could've been spent developing characters like Garon. As it stands now though, it feels like the true ending is behind a paywall. I already explained why I think the other two routes are obsolete, so if you don't agree with me, then that's fine. However, I will assume that it's a common view because I've talked to a lot of people who feel the same. I kinda agree and disagree with you. I feel like instead of removing the 3rd path, they should have removed the "choose Hoshido or Nohr" path and made the 3rd choice the main version(since you get everyone and everything which means you don't have to pay for extra versions if you want all units). Since the choices are obsolete, it would have been more beneficial to focus on one story and develop the characters more. Instead they could have made the Hoshido/Nohr path as DLC, to see what would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I think that this narrative of "the choices are obsolete" is kind of hyperbolic. Yes, Invisible Kingdom has the happiest ending. But there's literary and artistic merit in tragedies too; indeed, tragedy and comedy were among the primary two genres of ancient Greek plays. And regardless of whether its a tragedy or not, its still interesting to see how things play out depending on how your choice goes. As such, there is merit to the other routes. Not to mention that if you happen to particularly like a certain unique battle/set of battles or events that happen on a particular route you'd have to play that particular route to experience it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatsuoki Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I might be biased towards this (after all Ryoma is THE Fates husbando for me) but part of me is happy that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to Kamui. But I think it would be better if it was a legit plot twist like the S support would be locked (wouldn't show up in the support log) until a certain point in the story when Kamui would find out they aren't his/hers blood siblings and the S support unlocks after that. I think people would complain less if it were that way. Ah I agree. That would have been a good way to do it. I was hoping the Hoshido siblings knew the whole time instead of right before the S support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Do we even know when the game went gold? Since it isn't brought up outside of the S-supports and records, isn't it possible that when the second trailer dropped, the option didn't exist? It does seem like a last-minute "We'd only gain something financially from doing it" decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I might be biased towards this (after all Ryoma is THE Fates husbando for me) but part of me is happy that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to Kamui. In a way, this is the biggest reason I hate that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to Kamui and that the eight siblings as a whole are romanceable. It really had no place in what they were going for in this story. Awakening was a story about the bonds between comrades as well as family, stressing your spouse and child(ren) most of all. Fates was advertised as a choice between the family you were born to and the family you were raised by. Even if you only look at the siblings on one faction, Kamui has the most siblings out of all previous FE lords. Seliph and Chrom had two (half) siblings, and before Kamui they had the most. And they're not even the only sibling groups, both Suzukaze and Felicia have an older twin who is faction-locked. This was a really good opportunity for Fates to delve into familial love instead of romantic love. I feel like the media nowadays is so obsessed with romantic love that they're insistent on shoving it everywhere, even if it doesn't belong. Why else do you guys think the marriage mechanic so popular in Awakening, nonetheless came back in a game where it doesn't even have any relevance? It seems like people place less importance on familial love or even friendship, and this game had the potential to really explore the importance of familial love. In a way, making the Hoshido siblings not related to you makes the entire premise seem cheap. In a way, being able to romance your siblings (especially the Nohr siblings you grew up with) seems almost like a perversion of the familial love. And considering that even if you're married they'll refer to you as their brother/sister, it just seems like the game did not know where it was going. Just because I seem so passionately heated on this subject, I don't have a problem with people who want to marry their siblings. I am not going to make a big deal out of it because they're not your siblings and they're not even real. What I do have a problem with is that they are marriageable in the first place. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 In a way, this is the biggest reason I hate that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to Kamui and that the eight siblings as a whole are romanceable. It really had no place in what they were going for in this story. Awakening was a story about the bonds between comrades as well as family, stressing your spouse and child(ren) most of all. Fates was advertised as a choice between the family you were born to and the family you were raised by. Even if you only look at the siblings on one faction, Kamui has the most siblings out of all previous FE lords. Seliph and Chrom had two (half) siblings, and before Kamui they had the most. And they're not even the only sibling groups, both Suzukaze and Felicia have an older twin who is faction-locked. This was a really good opportunity for Fates to delve into familial love instead of romantic love. I feel like the media nowadays is so obsessed with romantic love that they're insistent on shoving it everywhere, even if it doesn't belong. Why else do you guys think the marriage mechanic so popular in Awakening, nonetheless came back in a game where it doesn't even have any relevance? It seems like people place less importance on familial love or even friendship, and this game had the potential to really explore the importance of familial love. In a way, making the Hoshido siblings not related to you makes the entire premise seem cheap. In a way, being able to romance your siblings (especially the Nohr siblings you grew up with) seems almost like a perversion of the familial love. And considering that even if you're married they'll refer to you as their brother/sister, it just seems like the game did not know where it was going. Just because I seem so passionately heated on this subject, I don't have a problem with people who want to marry their siblings. I am not going to make a big deal out of it because they're not your siblings and they're not even real. What I do have a problem with is that they are marriageable in the first place. That is all. Honestly, it feels like they're there for fetish fuel. I'm not one of those who complain about how waifus destroyed Fire Emblem - I like the mechanic as a whole - but I will say that the option to marry your siblings in Fates weakened the narrative as a whole, just like you said. Hell, I hadn't read Camilla's support with Kamui until yesterday, and I like her even less now than I did before. I find obsessing over someone to that degree and going so far incredibly uncomfortable. Yet, of course, some people love it, and that's why she's in the game; she's not there to be her own character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Waifus existed in Fire Emblem long before FE13, and romantic supports between characters has always been a thing since it was first implemented. However, FE13 was a game where marriage was literally a mechanic so I could see why being able to marry everyone was a thing. The previous FEs had limited supports but there were also much less really bad supports as well, nor was marriage a mechanic in those games. Just a nice bonus for the epilogue. (I'm not counting FE4 because it came before supports.) I'm not upset about Fates having marriage. I don't like that it has children, but that's because it really has no place in the story at all and it makes no sense. Fates having marriage is fine, but I think the children could've been taken out and everyone should've had less marriage options (4 from own faction, 2 from opposite faction, and Kamui) and more same-sex supports. The marriage system also screws over the Kamuisexuals as well, which is really dumb. More importantly, if the game wants to present a story about the avatar's love for their two families, then please treat the siblings as siblings and don't make them marriageable. This is not something that can go both ways. Honestly, this is why avatar characters should not have siblings -- because people will want to bang the siblings and the game will give you some convoluted reason as to why you can marry them (oh, you're not really related) and Kamui will become a sibling fucker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Basically, like it's been said they try to eat the cake and have it too. Too bad the plate is still empty in both case. Fufu, I'm so clever... I wonder if there wasn't some executive meddling during the development, not just for the third path, but for the entire game in general. It just seems so freaking chaotic. :/ Edited July 22, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm not upset about Fates having marriage. I don't like that it has children, but that's because it really has no place in the story at all and it makes no sense. Fates having marriage is fine Marriage in the game is almost as much as an insult to the writing as children is. How many characters have s-rank supports that don't come out of nowhere? What would compel characters to get married during the war? Why would they feel like getting married without even starting a romantic relationship? Let S-ranks just denote Shared endings. I think the sad thing about Fate is that IS will think they covered the family focused story already and not do it again in future titles, even though Fate's attempt was a total failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 How many characters have s-rank supports that don't come out of nowhere? How many characters in the GBA games had completely platonic C and B supports, only for the A support to suddenly veer into romance? Nino/Jaffar, Franz/Amelia, Wil/Rebecca, Gerik/Marisa, and that's just off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Except Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones still had more variety in supports and paired endings than Awakening if not Fates. Just LegaultXIsadora's ending. No FE setting has done supports better than Tellius. Edited July 23, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Except Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones still had more variety in supports and paired endings than Awakening. Just LegaultXIsadora's ending. No FE setting has done supports better than Tellius. Yeah. What wonderful supports. Edited July 23, 2015 by Gomez_Addams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I think he's talking about PoR. How many characters in the GBA games had completely platonic C and B supports, only for the A support to suddenly veer into romance? Nino/Jaffar, Franz/Amelia, Wil/Rebecca, Gerik/Marisa, and that's just off the top of my head. Eh, not really. The characters you named are generaly established to have a crush on the other person. Such as Marisa for Gerik, Jaffar for Nino, Rebecca for Will. Plus, those supports are actually well developed. Well, to be fair, it's hard to notice for some like for Franz/Amelia, especially with the 5 support limit. It's doesn't compare to, say, Camilla/Zero, which make no sense whatso-freaking-ever btw. Edited July 23, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Name a scenario in Awakening or Fates like Jill's character development or Shinon's recruitment, both of which are tied to their supports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 What if I want to make the wrong choice? Honestly, this is how i intend to play the game the first time. From the moment i saw there can be a choice, im like "im gonna go the not-so-nice-Choice". That includes S supporting an adoptive sibling character because thats the point of that run. And i got ;/ because no dialogue trees. The characters acting like Kamui is right all the time is disconcerting. I was hoping, no, banking on characters calling Kamui out going "No what about the thing?!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 How many characters in the GBA games had completely platonic C and B supports, only for the A support to suddenly veer into romance? Nino/Jaffar, Franz/Amelia, Wil/Rebecca, Gerik/Marisa, and that's just off the top of my head. Only the Nino/Jaffar one is explicitly romantic and Jaffar having a special attachment to Nino is established before you even support them. It's not like the typical Awakening/Fate dialogue: Character A: Marry me! Character B: Huh-what!? Um, sure, I guess I love you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think he's talking about PoR. Well then he should have specified (and I might have agreed with him). Only the Nino/Jaffar one is explicitly romantic and Jaffar having a special attachment to Nino is established before you even support them. It's not like the typical Awakening/Fate dialogue: I'll give you the second point, but I will have to disagree with you on the first. Wil: I won’t leave you again… I’ll always stay near… and protect you… Franz: Yes… Well, I do have a brother, though. But I don’t remember my mother. But I swore that I would live my every moment to its fullest. I swore to my parents that I would live a long life for them and be happy. Amelia… You’re living the same way, embracing each passing moment. You believe in yourself, and your faith burns in you, making you shine. I don’t know what it is you plan to do with your life, but as long as we travel the same path, would you let me walk beside you? I have my own path to follow, I know, but… I believe we’re both walking toward the same goal. Amelia: Franz…? Franz: You don’t like that? Amelia: No! That’s not it. I’m…very happy! Franz…! Franz: Amelia, I’ll protect you. Amelia: Franz… Thank you… I’m really happy. But…I want to protect you, too. I am a soldier of sorts as well, you know. So…let me be your shield to protect you… Franz: And I will be your sword and fight for you. From now on. You’re not alone anymore, Amelia. Amelia: Thank you, Franz. Also, since I was checking the supports to find these, I found some more platonic supports that suddenly turn romantic at the last second: Forde: Would you like to feel my energy, too? Vanessa: Um… I’ll certainly think about it. Tethys: Oh! Chief! Gerik: Whoa! … Hey now… This is a battlefield. This isn’t the place for that… Tethys: No one’s looking… Klein: What? Well, I… Tate: I chose to stay by your side because I love you! But you… You’re so inconsiderate! Also, all three of Hector's romantic supports (Lyn, Florina, and Farina). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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