General US Politics

[tuvarkz]

Question: what do you two mean by "nationalist"? There are plenty of nationalist movements in Europe and they are not pretty. I don't know how prominent Viktor Orban and his wall are in American news, but he's a total asshole who's always making speeches about how It is Hungary's duty to save Europe from Muslims like they did in the 1500s (what he means, of course, is when Suileiman the Magnificent annihilated their army and killed their king in one battle, and the Hungarians went to the Hapsburgs and begged them to rule Hungary in exchange for not being Muslim, but I digress). I'm fine with having pride in one's country, but not with the kind of Rhetoric that Orban and Trump constantly spout out.

By nationalism, I mean the fact that a person is due first and foremost to his/her own country of birth, and that the government of a country's first and foremost duty is towards its own citizens. I don't see why the hell should my country help people in other countries when my country's citizens still need help, and when my country still has an external debt that needs to be paid. By extension, I'm not someone who approves of the massive influx of "Syrian Refugees" into european countries.

[solrocknroll]

By nationalism, I mean the fact that a person is due first and foremost to his/her own country of birth, and that the government of a country's first and foremost duty is towards its own citizens. I don't see why the hell should my country help people in other countries when my country's citizens still need help, and when my country still has an external debt that needs to be paid. By extension, I'm not someone who approves of the massive influx of "Syrian Refugees" into european countries.

I don't really agree with your points.

Someone can't change where they're born. I prefer the UK to the US. How is someone "due first and foremost" if they prefer something else? I don't have any particular attachment to my home country.

I also can't see how you can justify not helping those in need. If people in the US are hungry and then an earthquake ravages somewhere in South America, does that mean you'd just leave them to suffer? Likewise, helping others is always more important than helping yourself during times of tragedy. Other countries provide that support to the US during tragedies.

I pretty much despise nationalism and what it stands for. In history it's lead to terrible acts in the name of the mother country. By the same merit, imperialism and Manifest Destiny also bother me immensely.

[blah the Prussian]

By nationalism, I mean the fact that a person is due first and foremost to his/her own country of birth, and that the government of a country's first and foremost duty is towards its own citizens. I don't see why the hell should my country help people in other countries when my country's citizens still need help, and when my country still has an external debt that needs to be paid. By extension, I'm not someone who approves of the massive influx of "Syrian Refugees" into european countries.

What about refugees in Germany, France, and the Nordics, all of whom are doing well economically? It should be noted that, in general, countries experiencing economic difficulty are not taking in Refugees.

[tuvarkz]

Of course, if the country and its citizens are faring well and has enough extra money, they can decide to help Refugees. However, the process of bringing said refugees to Europe has been noteworthy for its poor regulation and lack of background checks-Just look at what's been happening in Sweden for example.

(And then, if the issue is a shrinking population, the government could instead, encourage people to have more children and such).

EDIT: And for purposes of bringing the conversation back on topic, I'll say that I do agree on the strong Republican push for military action against ISIS. They are religious zealots by all definition, and they cannot be allowed to remain there, unpunished for their actions.

Edited January 20, 2016 by tuvarkz

[blah the Prussian]

Well, I can agree on that. Our allies in Iraq and Jordan are fighting a war, and we should be helping them because that is what a good ally does.

[dondon151]

tuvarkz, you're conflating patriotism with nationalism.

[I.M. Gei]

Of course, if the country and its citizens are faring well and has enough extra money, they can decide to help Refugees. However, the process of bringing said refugees to Europe has been noteworthy for its poor regulation and lack of background checks-Just look at what's been happening in Sweden for example.

(And then, if the issue is a shrinking population, the government could instead, encourage people to have more children and such).

EDIT: And for purposes of bringing the conversation back on topic, I'll say that I do agree on the strong Republican push for military action against ISIS. They are religious zealots by all definition, and they cannot be allowed to remain there, unpunished for their actions.

america alone dropped over ten thousand bombs on daesh last year, buddy

and heck, as the son of immigrants, yes, my parents were two people looking for jobs and housing, but you know what? with time, they were also two people buying tickets at the cinema, putting their kids in youth soccer league, and paying taxes back into the system that enabled their success in this country. and when i see sarah palin and donald trump and their ilk talking about "real americans", i know damn well they aren't talking about me or anyone else darker than a slice of wonder bread

tuvarkz, you're conflating patriotism with nationalism.

as charles de gaulle said, "patriotism is when love of your country comes first; nationalism is when hatred for people other than your own comes first"

[CyborgZeta]

I'm fine with having pride in one's country, but not with the kind of Rhetoric that Orban and Trump constantly spout out.

I can understand Orban's position. He, like quite a few other Eastern European countries, are concerned about the massive influx of migrants from the Middle East and North Africa; primarily from countries with Islamic laws and cultures. I do not want to derail the topic, so I will leave it at that.

I agree with tuvarkz in that we need to prioritize taking care of our citizens first and foremost, especially our veterans. We need to secure our southern border to prevent further illegal immigration, and any refugees from the Middle East need to be properly vetted.

[I.M. Gei]

we've cut down the number of homeless vets on the street by 50% in four years

helping vets and refugees is not a zero sum game

by the way the Mexico border is as secure as it's been in 40 years and the net immigration rate to america from mexico right now is at zero, or possibly even negative, but who cares about reality?

[Tryhard]

What makes you think European welfare states are sustainable? Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal provide some sorry examples of sustainability.

You're right though. The United States probably could find the money to pay for every one of these programs. The issue of course is how much and from whom, though I would suggest that everyone would necessarily experience a much larger tax burden than they had previously. Some people have tried to run those numbers, because Sanders evidently isn't overly concerned with addressing that just yet.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/price-tag-of-bernie-sanders-proposals-18-trillion-1442271511

You obviously don't have to accept the Wall Street Journal's numbers out of hand, but it should be fairly obvious anyway that the costs for all of this would end up somewhere in the extreme. Consider that Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid already compose the lion's share of our mandatory spending.

I can't comment on many of those countries, but I'm not sure how many of them had/wanted to implement socialist programs or if they just had/have a spontaneous economy due to other reasons.

Change isn't going to come instantly and it is going to met with a lot of opposition. We have, for example, National Insurance and VAT (value added tax) that is used to cover such expenses. The US has no such thing, but has a sales tax from most states instead of the federal government usually. Personally, I would prefer to pay these taxes to know that a healthcare system (as well as other benefits) is willing and able to help me in times of need instead of dropping me with a huge amount of debt that I have no feasible way of paying should I be one operation away from just being fucked.

Not saying that the money is magically going to come from nowhere and it should definitely be considered and questioned but the funny thing is that the UK's healthcare system, the NHS, is far more cost effective than the system currently implemented in the US, and (obviously) simply more effective in general.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

Edited January 20, 2016 by Tryhard

[CyborgZeta]

I'm not entirely confident the border is as secure as the government says it is.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/9/20-pct-illegals-caught-border-have-criminal-record/?page=all

Yes, illegal immigrants from Mexico are down; what we're getting now are people from Central America.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28203923

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35306473

Also, while reduction of homeless veterans is good, the VA still needs a lot of reform.

Edited January 20, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[blah the Prussian]

I can understand Orban's position. He, like quite a few other Eastern European countries, are concerned about the massive influx of migrants from the Middle East and North Africa; primarily from countries with Islamic laws and cultures. I do not want to derail the topic, so I will leave it at that.

I agree with tuvarkz in that we need to prioritize taking care of our citizens first and foremost, especially our veterans. We need to secure our southern border to prevent further illegal immigration, and any refugees from the Middle East need to be properly vetted.

The EU made it clear that the migrants would be just passing through, and would eventually settle in Germany. He was and is actively trying to obstruct the EU refugee policy which does not harm his country.

[CyborgZeta]

The EU made it clear that the migrants would be just passing through, and would eventually settle in Germany. He was and is actively trying to obstruct the EU refugee policy which does not harm his country.

The EU has been trying to create a policy to distribute quotas of migrants across each of the EU member nations, which is what Orban and other Eastern European countries are opposed to.

[blah the Prussian]

The EU has been trying to create a policy to distribute quotas of migrants across each of the EU member nations, which is what Orban and other Eastern European countries are opposed to.

But he doesn't have to follow that plan, and obviously he hasn't been. The problem is that he is obstructing migrants, period, not just ones that want to live in Hungary.

[tuvarkz]

Orban's not responsible for the migrants-He doesn't have to let them pass through his country if he doesn't want to. In the meantime, Germany is accepting little to no Ukrainian war refugees.

[blah the Prussian]

Orban's not responsible for the migrants-He doesn't have to let them pass through his country if he doesn't want to. In the meantime, Germany is accepting little to no Ukrainian war refugees.

Orban doesn't have to let migrants go through Hungary, but he's still being a dick about it. The war in Ukraine is far, far smaller scale than the war in Syria. These refugees can go to the 75% of Ukraine that is away from the war, while all of Syria is a warzone in one way or another. Sorry, but no reverse racism for you.

Edit: Also, the fact that you apparently read that source makes me extremely concerned for your intelligence.

Edited January 20, 2016 by blah the Prussian

[tuvarkz]

Orban doesn't have to let migrants go through Hungary, but he's still being a dick about it. The war in Ukraine is far, far smaller scale than the war in Syria. These refugees can go to the 75% of Ukraine that is away from the war, while all of Syria is a warzone in one way or another. Sorry, but no reverse racism for you.

Edit: Also, the fact that you apparently read that source makes me extremely concerned for your intelligence.

I'll accept the point that the war in Ukraine is far smaller in scale. However

1) I used this site for source as there doesn't seem to be any other more 'reputable' news source in English speaking about this.

2) Just for safety's sake, I bothered checking the german source. The Google translation results seem pretty clear in the wording, and it seems accurate enough.

3) Not all of the 'Syrian' refugees actually come from there. It's been shown that there are relatively accesible ways to gain fake passports-Perhaps with better control of who was getting in, Germany could've accepted more actual refugees and less people trying to gain a better standard of living using the war as an excuse to do so?

4) I don't think the term 'racism' even applies here-Islam is not a ethnically-centered religion; and Ukraine is predominantly a Slavic region. (Which to note, was also target of discrimination under Nazism).

[blah the Prussian]

I'll accept the point that the war in Ukraine is far smaller in scale. However

1) I used this site for source as there doesn't seem to be any other more 'reputable' news source in English speaking about this.

2) Just for safety's sake, I bothered checking the german source. The Google translation results seem pretty clear in the wording, and it seems accurate enough.

3) Not all of the 'Syrian' refugees actually come from there. It's been shown that there are relatively accesible ways to gain fake passports-Perhaps with better control of who was getting in, Germany could've accepted more actual refugees and less people trying to gain a better standard of living using the war as an excuse to do so?

4) I don't think the term 'racism' even applies here-Islam is not a ethnically-centered religion; and Ukraine is predominantly a Slavic region. (Which to note, was also target of discrimination under Nazism).

Okay, the event probably actually happened, It's just the tone of the article that concerned me, and how obviously biased it was. I would like reliable statistics on the refugee to non refugee ratio that makes it into Germany. You might not have been playing the reverse racism card, but the article clearly was; even the title does so, and the links refer to an "invasion".

[tuvarkz]

I'll agree that the site and article are rather biased- This article might be a bit better. It seems that the official stance on fake syrian passport use would be of around 8% in Germany. But of course, considering that the german goverment seems to be rather pro-immigration, I'd assume that the numbers might be a bit higher than that. Sweden itself, however, didn't impose any border checks until mid-november, which may result in a possibly higher amount of fake refugees.

[Phoenix Wright]

how do people feel about gov. o'malley vs clinton? i'm admittedly not too well versed on him, but i feel even he is a stronger candidate than hillary.

[blah the Prussian]

I'll agree that the site and article are rather biased- This article might be a bit better. It seems that the official stance on fake syrian passport use would be of around 8% in Germany. But of course, considering that the german goverment seems to be rather pro-immigration, I'd assume that the numbers might be a bit higher than that. Sweden itself, however, didn't impose any border checks until mid-november, which may result in a possibly higher amount of fake refugees.

8% seems like an acceptable number to me, although of course if it could be reduced to zero that would be desirable. With Sweden, it is in their best interest to accept immigrants, refugee or not, because of their plummeting birth rate. They are making up for it with immigration, which seems like a fine strategy to me.

[tuvarkz]

It has lead to Sweden becoming the rape capital of the west, however.

[blah the Prussian]

It has lead to Sweden becoming the rape capital of the west, however.

The solution to that would seem to be for Sweden to get its act together in its handling of rape cases. Not as many people would rape if they thought they wouldn't get away with it.

[tuvarkz]

The main problem with that is, these are Sweden's prisons:

I believe the problem is obvious.

[blah the Prussian]

The main problem with that is, these are Sweden's prisons:

I believe the problem is obvious.

Well, no, obviously the main problem is the fact that a bunch of rapists are being found not guilty, because Sweden does not have disproportionate murder rates.

Edited January 21, 2016 by blah the Prussian