General US Politics

[CyborgZeta]

Out of curiosity, is anyone else here from a rural area, or am I the only one?

I grew up in a suburb, but I live in a rural area now.

The area I live in now is nice. I wouldn't want to live in a suburb or any urban area again; I'd rather just commute to those places if need be.

Edited December 20, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well this was interesting.

https://mic.com/articles/162992/trump-s-weapon-for-a-truly-unified-republican-congress-breitbart-fueled-internet-mobs?utm_source=policymicTBLR&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social#.Uuet7gKiN

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, that's where a ton of fear for a Trump presidency; his most rabid of supporters are all the fun of a Nazi, bully, and petulant child rolled up into one.

[Time the Crestfallen]

This was also interesting:
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article122593759.html

EDIT
Additional link for more info:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/27/14078646/north-carolina-political-science-democracy

Edited December 28, 2016 by The Blind Idiot God

[Tolvir]

Anyone going to comment on what obama has done the past couple days. Don't know what the hell he is trying to do, but these are pretty drastic moves. He just kicked out Russian Diplomats from the US and a couple of Russian Facilities that were in the US. No rights, no warning, just told to get the f out. That is something you do when leading up to war with another country. What the fuck is he trying to do. This combined with what he just did to Israel are some pretty drastic moves.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Tolvir

[Yojinbo]

Seems like Obama's looking out to place some cuckoos in Trump's nest.

Though it's about time the US government finally takes a clear stance against Israel's constant violations of international law, sanctions against Russia are not justified and a mistake that could come back to haunt the states. They could've made some profitable business with Putin while the EU foolishly continues to not achieve anything with their sanctions but I guess stable relations with Russia just aren't part of the NATO-agenda.

Kind of an assholeish move on Obama's part to cockblock one of Trump's few reasonable moves like that.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Yojinbo

[tuvarkz]

Anyone going to comment on what obama has done the past couple days. Don't know what the hell he is trying to do, but these are pretty drastic moves. He just kicked out Russian Diplomats from the US and a couple of Russian Facilities that were in the US. No rights, no warning, just told to get the f out. That is something you do when leading up to war with another country. What the fuck is he trying to do. This combined with what he just did to Israel are some pretty drastic moves.

Oh wow, what a sore loser. Russia is quick to banter, though.

[Lord Raven]

"A sore loser" is what you call a two term president? lol

Republicans have been sore losers every time a democrat's been president, and they're sore losers when democrats were taking over congress, so they get what's coming to them.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Tolvir]

"A sore loser" is what you call a two term president? lolRepublicans have been sore losers every time a democrat's been president, and they're sore losers when democrats were taking over congress, so they get what's coming to them.

You do realize what Obama just did was something done leading to WAR. This passes democrat and Republican Party lines, this is now about the US and its foreign relations. This is not about what the republicans get or anything. This is about the possibility of a war breaking out between countries. This will effect more than the republicans, YOUR FELLOW FUCKING AMERICANS, this is going to be effect everyone.

I swear I am so done with the political environment nowadays. It's all about party lines like our favorite damn sport team. We can't sit next to each other anymore and listen. Negotiate, cooperate, and try to achieve a common goal. We now hate our own fellow citizens more than anything else in the country because of a stupid political party. I'm sorry, but if you think that the democrats are above anyone else in this f'ing world, then you are a sheep. And that goes for the same for blind supporters of any political party. Your party is currently cannabalizing itself. They blew the whole election, because they wanted to push Hillary and not Bernie. The dems are as much guilt for everything as any ther political party. The republicans are no better, the libertarians are no better, the Green Party, none of it.

Fuck I'm so tired of this mentality. WE LIVE IN THE SAME GOD DAMN COUNTRY, WHY DO WE HATE PEOPLE FROM OUR OWN COUNTRY SO FUCKING MUCH.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Tolvir

[Radiant head]

russia hacking the election is basically the new iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

obama is an overrated failure tbh. winning a re-election doesn't make up for the massive losses dems have taken in the house, senate, state legislatures, and governor seats he oversaw, and not to mention helping pave the way for trump.

[Lord Raven]

You do realize what Obama just did was something done leading to WAR. This passes democrat and Republican Party lines, this is now about the US and its foreign relations. This is not about what the republicans get or anything. This is about the possibility of a war breaking out between countries. This will effect more than the republicans, YOUR FELLOW FUCKING AMERICANS, this is going to be effect everyone.

As far as I know, war hasn't broken out, and everything is liable to change in 3 weeks when Putin's ally takes office.

I swear I am so done with the political environment nowadays. It's all about party lines like our favorite damn sport team. We can't sit next to each other anymore and listen. Negotiate, cooperate, and try to achieve a common goal. We now hate our own fellow citizens more than anything else in the country because of a stupid political party. I'm sorry, but if you think that the democrats are above anyone else in this f'ing world, then you are a sheep. And that goes for the same for blind supporters of any political party. Your party is currently cannabalizing itself. They blew the whole election, because they wanted to push Hillary and not Bernie. The dems are as much guilt for everything as any ther political party. The republicans are no better, the libertarians are no better, the Green Party, none of it.

Where did I say they were above anything? The dude above me literally said that Obama was a sore loser, and I was pointing out the irony in how a two term president is somehow considered a loser, especially a black president in a country that's opposed to helping anyone that isn't white. My whole post said nothing more than "the parties reap what they sow." If the parties themselves are going to have a winner/loser mentality then they get what they deserve.

I do not think they're above the Republican party; I actually think the only democrats that have ever been "above" the Republican party are few and far between. They're both shit.

You're taking far too much from my post than anything I've said. You realize that I also don't care if someone's from my country or a different country, because country lines are stupid and arbitrary and they're the baseline reason why people believe in winning or losing in any context. Let us also face it that the political environment has always been sports-like, because of "winning" wars. The Cold War was nothing but a cock-measuring competition between two countries on the surface that every propaganda movie (Rocky) has ever argued.

russia hacking the election is basically the new iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

if we go to war...

obama is an overrated failure tbh. winning a re-election doesn't make up for the massive losses dems have taken in the house, senate, state legislatures, and governor seats he oversaw, and not to mention helping pave the way for trump.

wasn't my point, esp since the democrats' lack of anything is what caused all of that to happen and not necessarily obama, because we vote for figureheads in the US we don't vote for parties

the party's been gone since 2010, obama still won re-election despite that, and the main issue I see in the democrats control is in the Governors, since there's nowhere close to a republican supermajority. I would actually be very surprised if the Democrats won the majority of the Governor seats throughout the country.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Tolvir]

As far as I know, war hasn't broken out, and everything is liable to change in 3 weeks when Putin's ally takes office.Where did I say they were above anything? The dude above me literally said that Obama was a sore loser, and I was pointing out the irony in how a two term president is somehow considered a loser, especially a black president in a country that's opposed to helping anyone that isn't white. My whole post said nothing more than "the parties reap what they sow." If the parties themselves are going to have a winner/loser mentality then they get what they deserve.I do not think they're above the Republican party; I actually think the only democrats that have ever been "above" the Republican party are few and far between. They're both shit.You're taking far too much from my post than anything I've said. You realize that I also don't care if someone's from my country or a different country, because country lines are stupid and arbitrary and they're the baseline reason why people believe in winning or losing in any context. Let us also face it that the political environment has always been sports-like, because of "winning" wars.

There was no need in your post to call out the Republican Party, let alone bring in any political leaning in that conversation. None at all. Yet you did. You could of left it at Obama not being a sore loser and you would of made your point. But you had to bring in the Republican Party and how they get what is coming to them, even though everything that is coming should never be something for one political party to deal with, but the country as a whole.

And my post was not entirely directed at you. I will admit, my post was a rant, made from frustration of this political envoironment now days where people will not talk to each other because of their own political leanings. I have literallly had neighbors stop interactions with each other this year at all because of politics. There is no more compromise, negotiation, or empathy anymore in the political environment. What used to be gray has been turned into black and white for what ever the political party of someone's choosing wants.

Complex issues like Gay Marriage, where it was entirely the right for people who are LGBT to get married, but the problem was that the government shouldn't be allowed to say who and who cannot be allowed to be married at all, was turned into something so black and white it felt like a Saturday morning cartoon. And both parties where guilty for it. Whether it was the Democrats claiming all the republicans were evil bigots who didn't want them to get married, or the republicans claiming the dems were waging war on religion and morality. Both were wrong and turned a complex issue into something made for TV.

So I apologize for it seeming like I was calling you out specifically. It was my rage filled mind speaking, but my point still stands. This isnt an issue of what someone gets, or karma, or whatever you want to call it. This is a complex issue and should be treated as such, not turned into some kind of playground banter bull shit.

[Phoenix Wright]

Anyone going to comment on what obama has done the past couple days. Don't know what the hell he is trying to do, but these are pretty drastic moves. He just kicked out Russian Diplomats from the US and a couple of Russian Facilities that were in the US. No rights, no warning, just told to get the f out. That is something you do when leading up to war with another country. What the fuck is he trying to do. This combined with what he just did to Israel are some pretty drastic moves.

this is really confusing to me.

russia has succeeded in aiding one of the most divisive presidents in our history via tampering with our elective process, and the blame lies in the united states for taking action????

[Radiant head]

lol in what world are republicans not actively promoting bigotry

pathologically centrist both sides-ism is just as bad as partisan hackery tbh.

[Yojinbo]

obama is an overrated failure tbh.

Eh, I'd say he's getting credit for the wrong things but overall most other presidents have been shittier than him still.

russia has succeeded in aiding one of the most divisive presidents in our history via tampering with our elective process [...]

Evidence for this claim?

[Lord Raven]

There was no need in your post to call out the Republican Party, let alone bring in any political leaning in that conversation. None at all. Yet you did. You could of left it at Obama not being a sore loser and you would of made your point. But you had to bring in the Republican Party and how they get what is coming to them, even though everything that is coming should never be something for one political party to deal with, but the country as a whole.

While I understand your point, I think that the Republican Party on its own has done many many things to pounce back when they were losing. Look at the stuff that The Blind Idiot God linked and tell me that they weren't petty nationwide. Voter ID laws, NC actually trying to completely destroy all the power that a Governor could have because they lost, etc. To say that Obama is a sore loser because of the party he belongs to losing is disingenuous in every way, because there are plenty of examples from both sides that means that Trump isn't above it all.

I brought up partisan hackery because the poster above me brought up partisan hackery. Obama didn't "lose" unless you're trying to say the Democrats lost.

And my post was not entirely directed at you. I will admit, my post was a rant, made from frustration of this political envoironment now days where people will not talk to each other because of their own political leanings. I have literallly had neighbors stop interactions with each other this year at all because of politics. There is no more compromise, negotiation, or empathy anymore in the political environment. What used to be gray has been turned into black and white for what ever the political party of someone's choosing wants.

This has made me cringe greatly when people would stop talking to others or shitting on Trump supporters, but I will say that I've actively tried to discuss things with people in this thread only to get spit on or ignored, as have many, many others, who happened to be either left leaning or Libertarian.

Complex issues like Gay Marriage, where it was entirely the right for people who are LGBT to get married, but the problem was that the government shouldn't be allowed to say who and who cannot be allowed to be married at all, was turned into something so black and white it felt like a Saturday morning cartoon. And both parties where guilty for it. Whether it was the Democrats claiming all the republicans were evil bigots who didn't want them to get married, or the republicans claiming the dems were waging war on religion and morality. Both were wrong and turned a complex issue into something made for TV.

You said it was a complex issue but you framed it as a black-and-white issue. I'll say now that Gary Marriage was never a complicated issue, and the most complex part was the argument about "marriage is between a man and a woman." A legitimately complex issue is anything regarding the economy; basically healthcare, minimum wage, and etc.

Nobody is debating civil rights because it has always been a very one-sided, black-and-white issue in most people's minds with regards to civil rights, and civil rights is an uncomplex issue that nobody is willing to bend on because the arguments against them are completely illogical. The reason that nobody tries to take civil rights issues with nothing but name calling is because that's pretty much all the issues have ever been in the end. The only thing that people had against civil rights were basically name calling, and the only thing in favor as a retaliatory technique is the oft-used-but-actually-is-a-very-weak-comeback in the form of calling someone a bigot.

As it stands, the reason why people are more pissed about their civil rights being taken away is because gay marriage and the ability for minorities to have convenient outlets to vote were very hard fought or are continuing to be fought for. Minorities are still having trouble getting valid identification and voter ID laws are making it worse - and I would firmly have zero issue with voter ID laws if it weren't so fucking annoying to get an ID. And there's the chance it'll be undone because some people are pissed that they lost their jobs that will never come back. I agree that we're quick to label Trump supporters bigots because they voted for Trump, I agree that we should've heard them out and realized that no, they weren't bigots, they were just the remnants of a dying breed that is going to be hit hard by reality that bootstraps capitalism is gone. People are drowning out their woes because of civil rights, when their woes are in actuality more complex than civil rights. Is that what you were trying to say?

So I apologize for it seeming like I was calling you out specifically. It was my rage filled mind speaking, but my point still stands. This isnt an issue of what someone gets, or karma, or whatever you want to call it. This is a complex issue and should be treated as such, not turned into some kind of playground banter bull shit.

In the end, all I see is Obama making Trump's job harder. A war won't start in the next three weeks because I highly doubt Putin will start shit when Trump is about to become president, and I highly doubt this was anything more than sending a middle finger. This comes off as nothing to me but some petty bickering that will be put away the moment Trump is sworn in. Edited December 29, 2016 by Lord Raven

[tuvarkz]

@Lord Raven, I never called Obama a loser (Someone who constantly fails in life). I called him a sore loser (Someone who doesn't take losing well-this does not imply the person is overall a loser). And then, considering the polarization and opposite direction policies that Democrats and Republicans largely had in this election, then yes, a winner/loser does apply this time for once. And Trump is likely to undo many things that Obama made.

Also, @Phoenix Wright tampering? Boo hoo, if Russia was involved then at most they exposed the DNC's corruption (which the MSM should have been doing as it should've been their job as journalists), which was a favor to the populace. I don't know what your stance on Snowden and the NSA leak was, but if you think Snowden did the right thing, the logical extension is that Russia did the right thing as well. And propaganda can hardly count as tampering-famous/influencial people from all over the world were expressing their opinion on this election. Did they engage in tampering as well?

Edited December 29, 2016 by tuvarkz

[Phoenix Wright]

Evidence for this claim?

well, it's kinda sorta the stance of the united states government at the moment, but sure whatever. i understand that it's not 100%, but i also don't have non-partisan reasons to be skeptical.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38463025

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38370630

@Lord Raven, I never called Obama a loser (Someone who constantly fails in life). I called him a sore loser (Someone who doesn't take losing well-this does not imply the person is overall a loser). And then, considering the polarization and opposite direction policies that Democrats and Republicans largely had in this election, then yes, a winner/loser does apply this time for once. And Trump is likely to undo many things that Obama made.

Also, @Phoenix Wright tampering? Boo hoo, if Russia was involved then at most they exposed the DNC's corruption (which the MSM should have been doing as it should've been their job as journalists), which was a favor to the populace. I don't know what your stance on Snowden and the NSA leak was, but if you think Snowden did the right thing, the logical extension is that Russia did the right thing as well. And propaganda can hardly count as tampering-famous/influencial people from all over the world were expressing their opinion on this election. Did they engage in tampering as well?

this may just be the silliest post i've ever read from you, and that is tough.

edward snowden is an american. russia is russia. russia fucking with our elections, is, as others comically like to put it, AN ACT OF WAR. you don't seem to put much credence into democracy lol.

and before i have to respond to the stupid points: yes, the united states is equally responsible for these sorts of things. yes, i see it as an act of war as well. and no, i don't condone these actions.

[Lord Raven]

@Lord Raven, I never called Obama a loser (Someone who constantly fails in life).

good, wouldn't want the pot to meet the kettle

I called him a sore loser (Someone who doesn't take losing well-this does not imply the person is overall a loser).

but he didn't lose

And then, considering the polarization and opposite direction policies that Democrats and Republicans largely had in this election, then yes, a winner/loser does apply this time for once. And Trump is likely to undo many things that Obama made.

Tolvir, get him

The last 3 elections - as well as 1992 and 2000 - have been very polarizing. The winning mentality only applies to sports and competition, and the American election is so fucked because it's so heavily geared towards partisan politics. The issue is that you pretty much think this is a winners-losers thing and the fact that Trump himself has turned it into a winners-losers thing, and you've bought into it hook line and sinker. "Vote me for and you'll win!" Yeah, whatever man.

Also, @Phoenix Wright tampering? Boo hoo, if Russia was involved then at most they exposed the DNC's corruption (which the MSM should have been doing as it should've been their job as journalists), which was a favor to the populace. I don't know what your stance on Snowden and the NSA leak was, but if you think Snowden did the right thing, the logical extension is that Russia did the right thing as well. And propaganda can hardly count as tampering-famous/influencial people from all over the world were expressing their opinion on this election. Did they engage in tampering as well?

They didn't expose any RNC corruption, but they actually kept it out in the open. Like trying to have Kasich win a contested convention instead of having Trump or Cruz elected, the issue being that they failed because Trump is basically a cocksucker that won a presidency.

The difference is that the RNC completely failed and the DNC succeeded, but both parties were guilty of underhanded tactics. There's also a difference in a lot of people's eyes is that Snowden did his job in order to expose corruption throughout the nation, and Russia only did their thing so that their guy could win and for their own personal gain. Granted, the only thing I'm looking forward to is not going to war with Russia as far as Trump's presidency is concerned.

Snowden had very little to gain but support from a handful of people when he did his leaks. Besides, excising diplomats is just as much of a provocation of war as potentially spreading propaganda and revealing private emails by the parties involved in the figureheads running for POTUS. Furthermore, the way it's working also is that "you fucked with our elections so why should we pretend that we're friends still?"

I also like how you think that Trump is a very very strong leader, yet when Obama gets some balls to send a middle finger to Russia (that he knows will be undone) he's just a "sore loser" even though he was on his way out anyway.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Tolvir]

I disagree with the sore loser part. I am definitely no fan of Pbama, and think there are quite a few things he has done, said, or insinuated that I disagreed with heavily. Even recently, like him saying that he thinks he would of won if allowed a third term. First, I thought that was a little cocky and egotistical of him, and it wasn't exactly presidential ( Trump isn't either, but we don't need to go down to others levels just because) If he was trying to be a sore loser, he would of been actin alongside the rest of the recount stuff and egging on all of the protesters, etc. instead he said that Trump won, and that everyone needs to accept the fact that the world isn't ending.

On the other hand, while I think he need ed to grow some balls when dealing with Russia, ISIS, and a few other foreign situations, this is going for another level. Kicking out diplomats is a means of showing that you don't want to negotiate. Something we should never do in a stage like this. Even if Russia fiddled with the election, it was to a minor extent. Most of the blame still goes into the dems for their loss ( let's be honest, they shot themselves in the foot with the Bernie situation), and until it is fully proven that it was Russia, we should not act on it. And even if it was them, kicking out diplomats is not something we should do.

[Tetragrammaton]

If there is real evidence, someone would've been arrested at the moment.

But there isn't.

This is still a lame act.

[Phoenix Wright]

fully proven in the eyes of who? intellgence agencies believe it to be so. enough to declassify information, too, to convince everyone else.

russian apologists will go so far as to say russia gets to affect our democratically held elections? it doesn't matter how meager the tampering was. russia doesn't get to behave like an aggressor without diplomatic action being taken, plain and simple.

edit: hanhnn, bankers weren't jailed despite ample evidence of exploitation and illegal actions back in the housing bubble days. it's tougher than arresting standard crime suspects.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Lord Raven]

(let's be honest, they shot themselves in the foot with the Bernie situation)

I still truly wonder if Bernie could've won this election. The rust belt states that voted him hoping for their jobs back grew up in a red scare era and believed firmly in Bootstraps Capitalism so they will see Bernie as throwing out handouts. They'll harp on his 1972 article about a schoolgirl rape fantasy (fyi it was significantly more nuanced and has little to do with him being pro-rape) and they'll harp on him dumping toxic waste in Mexico for Vermont. I think it would've be better to let the primaries handle themselves than try to funnel more support towards Clinton, with the missing nuance being that Clinton had at most little to do with the DNC funneling support towards her, but I don't think Bernie Sanders would've done much else other than get more millennials to vote, but would keep certain other democrats from giving as much of a shit, because older white democrats and many older Asian minority groups are quite heavily in favor of Clinton over someone like Sanders.

What else do you think they should've done? Sanders running in general fractured the democratic establishment, and Trump's victory may have unified the Republican establishment despite their gunning for him to lose. Two years from now and 4 years from now will let us know if Bernie's running really made a difference. I think Sanders knew his job from the start was to move Clinton left but I don't think he expected a complete break. I'm really trying my best to not blame Sanders though, because ultimately this is karma on every political party (not just the democrats) for staying within their own party and giving too much of a shit about party lines.

[Tetragrammaton]

edit: hanhnn, bankers weren't jailed despite ample evidence of exploitation and illegal actions back in the housing bubble days. it's tougher than arresting standard crime suspects.

Still a lame excuse, from the mastermind of many coup d'etat around the world, when they say their legal system can't handle this kind of crime back home.

I also like how you think that Trump is a very very strong leader, yet when Obama gets some balls to send a middle finger to Russia (that he knows will be undone) he's just a "sore loser" even though he was on his way out anyway.

I think it's more likely a Obama's desperate prank, he dumped smelly shit in Trump's bed room other than some middle finger to Russia.

Edited December 30, 2016 by hanhnn

[Tryhard]

I still truly wonder if Bernie could've won this election. The rust belt states that voted him hoping for their jobs back grew up in a red scare era and believed firmly in Bootstraps Capitalism so they will see Bernie as throwing out handouts. They'll harp on his 1972 article about a schoolgirl rape fantasy (fyi it was significantly more nuanced and has little to do with him being pro-rape) and they'll harp on him dumping toxic waste in Mexico for Vermont. I think it would've be better to let the primaries handle themselves than try to funnel more support towards Clinton, with the missing nuance being that Clinton had at most little to do with the DNC funneling support towards her, but I don't think Bernie Sanders would've done much else other than get more millennials to vote, but would keep certain other democrats from giving as much of a shit, because older white democrats and many older Asian minority groups are quite heavily in favor of Clinton over someone like Sanders.

What else do you think they should've done? Sanders running in general fractured the democratic establishment, and Trump's victory may have unified the Republican establishment despite their gunning for him to lose. Two years from now and 4 years from now will let us know if Bernie's running really made a difference. I think Sanders knew his job from the start was to move Clinton left but I don't think he expected a complete break. I'm really trying my best to not blame Sanders though, because ultimately this is karma on every political party (not just the democrats) for staying within their own party and giving too much of a shit about party lines.

Sanders has his own baggage (though I still think Hillary has much worse considering her supposed experience) but her talk of America already being exceptional and incrementalism in a time when the public has a blatant disdain for the government and the countries state in general does not resonate. Bernie ran on a form of populism that eclipses Trump's faux brand and would likely be a more effective opponent against such in the general. It's a pity he was behind in the primary.

Bill Clinton said it first, but "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line". I think he was right. If Hillary Clinton had no prior ties to the Democratic party and ran as a Republican, they would rally behind her, I guarantee that. Democrats don't fall in line, for better or for worse, and that's not because I have any love for Democrats because I don't. Trump really didn't do any better than John McCain or Mitt Romney, but decreasing enthusiasm from Democrats diminished previous Obama leads. Hell, 9% of self-identified Democrats voted for Trump, that is unprecedented.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Tryhard