General US Politics

[Res]

To no surprise, Mitch McConnell gets most ironic comment of the week award. I like the link for the following paragraphs:

If recent history is any guide, this debate will continue, with Republicans pointing to the arguments Democrats made when they were in power, and vice versa. Its going to be tiresome: Dems will point to Republican obstructionism during Bill Clintons presidency, which will lead to Republicans point to Democratic obstructionism during George W. Bushs presidency, which will lead Democrats to point to Republican obstructionism during Barack Obamas presidency.

As regular readers know, when it comes to judicial nominees, there are no angels. Ive spent a fair amount of time looking for someone in either party whos been consistently principled on this, regardless of which party was in control at the time. Ive never been able to find such an individual. Theres plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

Here's a non-CNN source on the cost of the wall; no concrete plan appears to be in place, but it looks as if that plans do actually go ahead, taxpayers would have to front the cost initially (although I can't imagine how Mexico would pay the U.S. back).

(Also the use of tweets currently by politicians has me feeling as if we're living in the twilight zone, what with Trump and Schwarzenegger and the former president of Mexico. The political articles coming from Teen Vogue do, too).

Edited January 7, 2017 by Res

[Skynstein]

The wall is one of the most hilariously delusional things Trump has promised, and for good reason. There's absolutely no way he can "force" Mexico to pay unless he threatens military action or economic sanctions. I could see him doing the latter, though, which would be absolutely silly, and if the only thing stopping him from doing so is hostility from most other countries, he can definitely afford the negative publicity. In fact, there's little he can't do as the POTUS because the USA, as the superpower they are, are notorious for making a mockery out of international law and just doing as they please (case in point: invasion of Iraq).

Also, I believe his supporters would gladly pay for it if he couldn't make Mexico pay, so there's that, too.

[Excellen Browning]

Isn't a significant portion of the US-Mexico border already walled, fenced and or monitored?

[Yojinbo]

Isn't a significant portion of the US-Mexico border already walled, fenced and or monitored?

It is.

But hey, let's keep the reps believe that Trump is gonna build that wall and have Mexico pay for it somehow. It's quite funny to see how many people still buy his blatant bullshit.

[Lord Raven]

I live 40 miles away from the border I am personally in support of a border wall b/c my ladder business needs a jolt

[Tolvir]

Isn't a significant portion of the US-Mexico border already walled, fenced and or monitored?

Technically. Yes.

But coming from someone who lived on the border for four years, it isn't stopping jack and shit. The border patrol has been told not to do a thing about illegals coming across the border. I lived in a neighborhood that had a ton of border patrol, and they were always talking about how pissed they were and how annoying it was that they had been told to not do their job. It is hard to get a job in Yuma bid you don't speak both English and Spanish because of the amount of people in Yuma that don't speak English. We had two houses on our street, and keep in mind that there were a ton of border patrol in this neighborhood too, that had only 2-3 people who could speak broken English at best, and then an additional 5-6 in the same house hay couldn't. They were bringing full extended families across and would be able to get a house, a drivers license, and jobs. Some of them would come up across the border for the farming seasons ( Yuma produces a large amount of lettuce and a few other vegetables) take jobs to harvest them, and then go back across the border with the paycheck. They also filled up the hospital, it was very difficult to find a time where the hospital didn't have rooms available. They had people outside in hallways and pretty much any open space because so many of the illegals were going to the hospital and filling the place up with whatever illness or problem they had. It was crazy the amount of things these people got away with.

Honestly, a wall is likely improbable. But what I hope happens is we cut down a lot of the illegal immigration happening. We can't keep doing this. We have our own citizens living on the streets and starving, people living in tent cities, we can't keep acting like some kind of refugee help center when we can't even support our own citizens. Something needs to be done about it. I think we need to cut Mexico's funding for one, we give them better billions every year, and they can't even take care of their own citizens. Cut the funding and use the money to take care of our own.

[Radiant head]

i think there's little to no correlation between immigration and the government's lack of interest in helping poor people

[Lord Raven]

But coming from someone who lived on the border for four years, it isn't stopping jack and shit. The border patrol has been told not to do a thing about illegals coming across the border. I lived in a neighborhood that had a ton of border patrol, and they were always talking about how pissed they were and how annoying it was that they had been told to not do their job. It is hard to get a job in Yuma bid you don't speak both English and Spanish because of the amount of people in Yuma that don't speak English. We had two houses on our street, and keep in mind that there were a ton of border patrol in this neighborhood too, that had only 2-3 people who could speak broken English at best, and then an additional 5-6 in the same house hay couldn't. They were bringing full extended families across and would be able to get a house, a drivers license, and jobs. Some of them would come up across the border for the farming seasons ( Yuma produces a large amount of lettuce and a few other vegetables) take jobs to harvest them, and then go back across the border with the paycheck. They also filled up the hospital, it was very difficult to find a time where the hospital didn't have rooms available. They had people outside in hallways and pretty much any open space because so many of the illegals were going to the hospital and filling the place up with whatever illness or problem they had. It was crazy the amount of things these people got away with.

Could I get a source to corroborate this? It sounds interesting.

(I live in Tucson, but that's a college town 40 miles or so from the border as opposed to right on the border, and I haven't heard nearly as much about stuff like this.)

Honestly, a wall is likely improbable. But what I hope happens is we cut down a lot of the illegal immigration happening. We can't keep doing this. We have our own citizens living on the streets and starving, people living in tent cities, we can't keep acting like some kind of refugee help center when we can't even support our own citizens. Something needs to be done about it. I think we need to cut Mexico's funding for one, we give them better billions every year, and they can't even take care of their own citizens. Cut the funding and use the money to take care of our own.

How wouldn't this lead to more illegal immigration? Edited January 7, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Tolvir]

Could I get a source to corroborate this? It sounds interesting.(I live in Tucson, but that's a college town 40 miles or so from the border as opposed to right on the border, and I haven't heard nearly as much about stuff like this.) How wouldn't this lead to more illegal immigration?

Unfortunately, I am talking mostly through personal experience. I'm not sure if I could find something on it. I knew a lot of this for multiple reasons. I knew about the hospital situation because i had been to the hospital, along with my mother multiple times over the four years there. One of our neighbors were also a technician for the hospital, so he saw it every day. It never really changed over those four years, and I imagine it only got worst. The job situation was a mixture of talking to some people who lived there, especially from all the border patrol. That and, even if this sounds offensive, you can kind of tell when someone is from here or not. Especially when the field worker' bus would stop by the gas station, and most of the people who got off couldn't speak English. And the house situation, like I said, was literally on the same street as me. We talked with them once or twice, since they were right across the street from us.

Your probably right, it would cause more problems, but as it is right now, we are giving Mexico a ton of money to improve their country, and their people are still crossing the border into ours because their situation is so bad. Something needs to be done, we can't just keep throwing money down a hole like this when it isn't fixing anything.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tolvir

[Excellen Browning]

Hasn't spanish always been a normal language to speak along the border?

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, the issue is that I'm kind of skeptical of someone's personal experience - it has little to do with trivializing you as a person and moreso to do with the fact that everybody (myself included, every other forum) will say "this is what's happening around me, this is what I've been through" and sort of extending it to the rest of the country or rest of everyone in their situation. It could help to find local newspapers, stuff in similar towns, maybe statistical analysis or some sort of analysis of issues with towns near the border, etc. I can't really speak to your situation since whenever I'm in Tucson my focus is on school 24/7 and my particular source of "employment" right now is not really replaceable for the time being (though it doesn't pay too much) so my perception is highly skewed.

I can get on board with giving Mexico funding to do nothing, but as it stands giving funding to something that's bad doesn't necessarily mean it's not helping. It could also mean it's working to reduce the bad rather than make it good, but again I'd have to dig into that claim. If we gut their funding then the situation would be worse, if we continue to give them funding and it stays the same that's better than getting worse.

[Tolvir]

Hasn't spanish always been a normal language to speak along the border?

I have no issue with that. The US was called the melting pot after all. My problem was when the only language someone could speak was Spanish, and that was it. It creates a language barrier. A lot of times some of them don't even try to learn the language, so they continue only speaking Spanish. If they want to live here, they could at least attempt to learn the language even in its most basic and broken forms just so they could achieve a little bit of communication. Either that or find someone who knows both languages to translate for them. But instead they automatically assume and start speaking Spanish to anyone. There were quite a few instances were someone would ask me a question in the store or in public somewhere, and they didn't speak a bit of English so I didn't understand a word they said. Couldn't help them at all with whatever they wanted. It sucks for the parties because neither one can help the other.

I'm fine with skepticism on my personal experience. There is no proof outside of my own stories, which could easily be made up ( their not, but still). I just thought a little bit of personal experience for once outside of the normal sources would bring something a little different to the discussion.

[Lord Raven]

I think it's less that I don't believe you (I do, fyi) and more that I'm curious about other similar experiences and/or some sort of analysis to corroborate it. I see the experience and perception as valid but it's harder to really talk about it from the outside looking in. As it stands, it sounds like the issue with illegal immigration is taking jobs moreso than crime. It's valid issue, but it also feels like there needs to be a push towards different kinds of labor.

I am skeptical of those border patrol being told not to do their jobs, because the only sources I'm finding are like breitbart. The only source that comments on whether or not rate of immigration has changed says that illegal immigration has decreased (washington post).

Edited January 7, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Tolvir]

I think it's less that I don't believe you (I do, fyi) and more that I'm curious about other similar experiences and/or some sort of analysis to corroborate it. I see the experience and perception as valid but it's harder to really talk about it from the outside looking in. As it stands, it sounds like the issue with illegal immigration is taking jobs moreso than crime. It's valid issue, but it also feels like there needs to be a push towards different kinds of labor.I am skeptical of those border patrol being told not to do their jobs.

On the border patrol part, I am really sure you could find some information on it. To give a bit more information on it than the little I gave, they talked a lot about being told by the higher up, so the head of the border patrol essentially, to let them through unless they were commuting some type of crime or posed a threat. So if they had guns or weapons, visible drugs (they supposedly weren't allowed to check either), or any other tells that might show criminal intent. So unless the person was armed or doing something illegal, they weren't allowed to stop them. Again, it's what they said, do in not sure on proof. But with the amount of them that claimed this there is probably something on it somewhere.

Edit: I apologize for grammar errors. I'm doing ft his on the phone, so it's really messing stuff up, and a pain to check.

Edit2: yeah breitbart really isn't they reliable anymore. Once Breitbart the person died it really took a leap off the cliff and has gotten worst and worst over time. Same with Glenn Beck and a few other conservative news sites. I swear, it's ether the far left media and their extreme bias and coverup of facts, or the right wing news sources creating conspiracies and making mountains out of mole hills. Hard to find anything reliable anymore, have to piece together what sounds true from both and go from there.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tolvir

[Excellen Browning]

I just went to the Wikipedia article on illegal immigration into the us and apparently the department of homeland security reports some 330,000 trespassers caught, and estimates this amounts to be a third of the total. They also state about half of the illegal aliens now living in the US overstayed their visa. (and so went in the normal way). The population of illegals in the US peaked at 11-12 million in 2007 and is now slowly declining.

I also really doubt that border patrol "was told to do nothing". Unless by nothing you actually mean ordered to stop shooting when they're throwing rocks at you. Seriously. I also distinctly remember a case where border patrol ran over an illegal girl, then proceeded to blame het father for it. (can't remember if they also shot him) Which was scandalous enough to make it to the Dutch news.

[Tolvir]

I just went to the Wikipedia article on illegal immigration into the us and apparently the department of homeland security reports some 330,000 trespassers caught, and estimates this amounts to be a third of the total. They also state about half of the illegal aliens now living in the US overstayed their visa. (and so went in the normal way). The population of illegals in the US peaked at 11-12 million in 2007 and is now slowly declining.

I also really doubt that border patrol "was told to do nothing". Unless by nothing you actually mean ordered to stop shooting when they're throwing rocks at you. Seriously. I also distinctly remember a case where border patrol ran over an illegal girl, then proceeded to blame het father for it. (can't remember if they also shot him) Which was scandalous enough to make it to the Dutch news.

You make it sound like the border patrol was mass slaughtering illegals out here. Seriously, like I said it is what they were saying. I know for a fact that the border patrol were not mass murdering people out here, nor were situations where shootings happened very often, at all. While that one example you made was a case of a bad agent, it wasn't agency wide. Whether or not what they said was true is up I. The air. I didn't fully believe it either, but I do think there is a little validity to their claim considering they were the ones working for the border patrol and not me. Can't confirm, nor deny.

And I'm sorry, assault is assault. You do throw a rock at someone unless you intend to hurt them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Those people throwing rocks, unless the border patrol shot first, had no business doing so in the first place, and I hold no sympathy for the fact they got shot. Maybe they shouldn't of been throwing rocks and trying to harm armed officials of the government.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tolvir

[Lord Raven]

A few things I'm seeing based on my readings;

- Illegal immigrants must pay taxes in order to buy a house (as you said they're doing)

- You mentioned living in Yuma, Arizona and I can't find anything on illegals obtaining driver's licenses or what the requirements are, but the commonality between all states that allow for illegals to get licenses is that they must pay taxes and become documented within two years. I'm not really seeing that they can obtain licenses.

- This is what I'm reading about border patrol vanloads

quote is:

Sometimes, particularly when the bureaucratic controls over refugee status are overwhelmed, some people do slip through the cracks. However, they're never released en masse on unsuspecting suburban populations.

Everything else is breitbart or something recalling anecdotes.

[Tolvir]

A few things I'm seeing based on my readings;- Illegal immigrants must pay taxes in order to buy a house (as you said they're doing)- You mentioned living in Yuma, Arizona and I can't find anything on illegals obtaining driver's licenses or what the requirements are, but the commonality between all states that allow for illegals to get licenses is that they must pay taxes and become documented within two years. I'm not really seeing that they can obtain licenses.- This is what I'm reading about border patrol vanloadsquote is:Everything else is breitbart or something recalling anecdotes.

Interesting. Again, just stating what I experienced. If they were paying taxes and going through the process , I don't have any issue. I would prefer our immigration system be used properly, but if they are becoming citizens anyway it is nothing more than a technicality in some ways.

[Lord Raven]

Also source on the second one: http://immigration.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005535 (my b)

[Radiant head]

the us is actually dependent on mexico being a place where people want to escape so they can get really cheap labour there.

[Tolvir]

the us is actually dependent on mexico being a place where people want to escape so they can get really cheap labour there.

You can look at Bill Clinton and NAFTA for that one then. Edited January 7, 2017 by Tolvir

[Nobody]

You can look at Bill Clinton and NAFTA for that one then.

I don't see the correlation at all. Like, why would NAFTA make Mexicans emigrate to the USA? This makes no sense to me.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Nobody

[Tolvir]

It eliminated tariffs between us and Mexico, allowing businesses to make their products in Mexico and bring them back up to the US without any extra cost. This combines with labor being cheaper in Mexico sealed the deal for businesses. NAFTA and what it was for aren't an issue, but what happened as a result aren't exactly good for us and it could use some revisions.

I don't see the correlation at all. Like, why would NAFTA make Mexicans emigrate to the USA? This makes no sense to me.

It eliminated tariffs between us and Mexico, allowing businesses to make their products in Mexico and bring them back up to the US without any extra cost. This combines with labor being cheaper in Mexico sealed the deal for businesses. NAFTA and what it was for aren't an issue, but what happened as a result aren't exactly good for us and it could use some revisions.

Edit: I was answering someone on how the us is dependent upon the cheap labor of Mexico. It has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Tolvir

[Nobody]

It eliminated tariffs between us and Mexico, allowing businesses to make their products in Mexico and bring them back up to the US without any extra cost. This combines with labor being cheaper in Mexico sealed the deal for businesses. NAFTA and what it was for aren't an issue, but what happened as a result aren't exactly good for us and it could use some revisions.

You didn't say "NAFTA was bad for the USA", which, while I disagree with (it gives americans products for way cheaper than you guys would get otherwise for exemple, among other advantages of trade deals) can be argued, you implyed that NAFTA could be blamed for a bigger migration from Mexico, which i don't see being the case.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Nobody

[CyborgZeta]

Illegal immigration started with the 1965 Immigration Act, but NAFTA didn't help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

Ted Kennedy was certainly a fool. He said the act would have no long-term changes and impact, but he was dead wrong.