General US Politics

[Karimlan]

Some people make so much fuss about events like school shootings and decry and lambast the "politics of division" when politics is division by definition, as Christopher Hitchens put it. These are the same people who have not read Microcosmographia Academica yet find themselves unwittingly applying principles and tenets from that piece!

[Shoblongoo]

39 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

Microcosmographia Academica 

huh...never heard of that one

*curious read* 

lol okay--made it to Page 3

"A Conservative Liberal is a broad-minded man, who thinks that something ought to be done, only not anything that anyone now desires, but something which was not done in 1881-82.

A Liberal Conservative is a broad-minded man, who thinks that something ought to be done, only not anything that anyone now desires; and that most things which were done in 1881-82 ought to be undone."

Sounds like hogwash tbh

Edited August 24, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Slumber]

Every time there's a scandal in Washington(Or in this case, like, 5 scandals), it always reveals that the idea that conservatives are the "fiscally responsible" ones is total bullshit. 

Yeah. Sure. Conservatives don't like spending money. As long as it's their own. If they can spend YOUR money? They sure as hell will, no matter how illegal it may be. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Slumber

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

Yeah. Sure. Conservatives don't like spending money. As long as it's their own.

Yeah, that is my tax dollars they are spending. California and Democratic states pay for a lot of our shit. And Texas too, I guess.

I do not think this is a good idea, but if we are able to pass fiscally conservative bills preventing states from getting more federal funding than they contribute, Republicans and their voters are fucked.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

21 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

There's definitely value to waiting to have the discussion. The issue is that nobody does. Every single incident leads to really shitty reactionary rhetoric from most people and nothing gets done.

It's clearly a suppression technique to stonewall legislation. All we can really do is be persistent.

Aside from simply having the facts, how long do you wait then?

Also, here's easily my favorite story of the day: Fox News' fans call them "FAKE NEWS" because even their poll suggests more people want illegals to have a path to citizenship. A lot of these people are actually under the impression that illegals don't pay taxes....

There's lots of other big stories coming out too, like the flipping of the National Enquirer and Trump's CFO. 2 Trump associates admitting/being found guilty of Tax fraud and his supporters are actually suggesting he doesn't have to show his tax returns when there's even more reason to have them visible to the public. Tick tock tick tock, just a matter of time.

WHY!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! the first thing they ever did to get in the country was break the law why reward them after not paying taxes for fucks sake why is this even an issue

Edited August 25, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Lord Raven]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Aside from simply having the facts, how long do you wait then?

Whenever people have calmed. It takes varying degrees of time and varies from case to case.

There's a downside to this in that it makes it harder for things to get done, but reactionary rhetoric should be avoided. We don't tend to think straight and we don't think about the long-term issues if we purely run on emotion.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

20 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Whenever people have calmed. It takes varying degrees of time and varies from case to case.

There's a downside to this in that it makes it harder for things to get done, but reactionary rhetoric should be avoided. We don't tend to think straight and we don't think about the long-term issues if we purely run on emotion.

Agreed and this is why I asked. I also agree with your point about being reactionary to these things, specially in the Trump era, but news come and go so quickly and discussion for change appears to be more relevant when something related to that subject occurs and I feel it results into something that's rather sickening: to put these politicians on the spot as the midterms are approaching, the outcry in regards to gun control for example, will never be sufficient unless a mass shooting occurs around that time to "refresh or re-ignite" the discussion.

Incumbents that have taken NRA money are probably praying that there's no mass shooting so close before the midterms.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Lord Raven]

2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Agreed and this is why I asked. I also agree with your point about being reactionary to these things, specially in the Trump era, but news come and go so quickly and discussion for change appears to be more relevant when something related to that subject occurs and I feel it results into something that's rather sickening: to put these politicians on the spot as the midterms are approaching, the outcry in regards to gun control for example, will never be sufficient unless a mass shooting occurs around that time to "refresh or re-ignite" the discussion.

I've been making the point that this is emblematic of how media sensationalism goes. We've hit a point of too much media, and they're constantly attracted to meaningless, shiny objects.

Currently, we're harping on Trump-Russia and no reasonable talk about gun control has actually occurred despite it being brought up in thread. Let's do it, though I won't start.

Unfortunately, people want to make blanket statements without considering the repercussions.

9 hours ago, Karimlan said:

Some people make so much fuss about events like school shootings and decry and lambast the "politics of division" when politics is division by definition, as Christopher Hitchens put it. These are the same people who have not read Microcosmographia Academica yet find themselves unwittingly applying principles and tenets from that piece!

Politics is meant to be a solution to division, though. I'm not reading that anyway, i'm too high and it's 10pm and I already go to school. At any rate, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at all.

[expshare]

I provided a link to a paper that contains a plethora of interesting references on issues of guns and health. Check out reference 53, for instance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447364/

Edited August 25, 2018 by expshare

[Lord Raven]

I'll skim/read through that later. Thanks!

John McCain has officially passed :(

[Slumber]

10 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

John McCain has officially passed :(

Disagreed with him a bunch, but I'll respect him for usually sticking to his beliefs and morals. He wasn't one that just followed party lines blindly, even if his personal politics still usually lined up with them. Which shouldn't be impressive as it is, but seeing manginas like Paul Ryan bend over backwards to stick to Trump's agenda after huffing and puffing makes it a rarity. 

RIP

[Dr. Tarrasque]

2 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

John McCain has officially passed :(

R.I.P one of the very few Republicans with integrity.

Fuck you Kelli Ward

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

R.I.P one of the very few Republicans with integrity.

Fuck you Kelli Ward

Holy hell, people actually say those kinds of things online?

Condolences to his friends and family and whatnot.  May he rest well.

[Lord Raven]

47 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Holy hell, people actually say those kinds of things online?

Condolences to his friends and family and whatnot.  May he rest well.

You should see /r/The_Donald. They are showing some relative class today (it's still quite tongue-in-cheek), but a few days ago when McCain went off his cancer treatment they were celebrating the inevitable.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Lord Raven

[blah the Prussian]

Don't know if anyone else is on left book(I hang there ironically) but the tankies over there are celebrating his death too. I seem to remember having a thread way back in 2015 accusing him of being a war criminal; same arguments.

[Slumber]

39 minutes ago, blah the Prussian said:

Don't know if anyone else is on left book(I hang there ironically) but the tankies over there are celebrating his death too. I seem to remember having a thread way back in 2015 accusing him of being a war criminal; same arguments.

I'm not going to say he was a great man. He was pretty hasty to jump to war, and was one of the biggest drum beaters when it came to invading Iraq, which almost everyone seems to agree was an awful idea in hindsight. But I also voted for Hillary this last election, who was also a big war hawk during that same time period, and I can't go "But he wanted war!", then immediately try to act like somebody I supported was much better when they did the same thing. I don't think his missteps should be forgotten or forgiven, but his missteps were at least in-line with damn near every politician(Even democrats were frothing at the mouth to rain hot death on innocent, impoverished brown children in the middle east after 9/11) during his worst moments.

As bad as McCain could be, he was rarely ever worse than the bar. And these days he was generally quite a bit better than the bar, at least as far as his political peers were concerned, and he refused to sink to their level on quite a few instances. And anyone who makes an enemy with the Cheeto in Chief is somewhat alright in my book.

I certainly think celebrating his death is in poor taste. I'm not going to really take grievances with the people who think his negatives far outweighed his positives(Since I'm pretty much in the same boat), but yeah. Celebration is not at all what I think is right here. Doesn't help that anyone with legitimate issues against him is going to be lumped in with the same people celebrating because he said mean things about ihr Fuhrer.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Etrurian emperor]

McCain was a relic from a bygone era where you could heavily disagree with the opposing side while still believe that your political rival truly wanted what was best for the country and that he can be trusted with leadership regardless of personal differences. That has now changed so I suppose its somewhat fitting he died in the middle of the Trump era. Trump obviously doesn't care what's best and he obviously can't be trusted with leading a country, and those that support Trump would say the exact same thing about whoever the Democrats decide to put forward. Its interesting to see how the entirely political atmosphere is now unrecognizable from when McCain ran for president. The basic agreement that the other side has merit and has his heart in the right place is now entirely gone no matter what side you're on. 

The Republican party as a whole feels rather alien to Europeans thanks to their extreme opposition to basic stuff like healthcare, regulations and LGBT rights so I doubt a President McCain would have gotten much applause, but I also doubt any European would have been troubled by his election either or think he didn't have what it took.

I hear McCain being a war hawk and particularly his votes for the war on Terror is held against him but I find that to be unfair. Pretty much all of America was suffering from mass hysteria at the time and certainly not without reason. 

[Dr. Tarrasque]

22 hours ago, eclipse said:

Holy hell, people actually say those kinds of things online?

Condolences to his friends and family and whatnot.  May he rest well.

Apparently so. I've gone to the Fox News channel and checked out videos on McCain. The claim on that story appears to be true. Lately, the Fox News fans have been pretty simple:

If there's a video about someone who opposes Trump: They're hateful and call "FAKE NEWS".

If there's a poll about policies or issues that Trump adamantly opposes: They're hateful and call "FAKE NEWS".

It's no wonder You've got another recent defector in the network. 

Mass shooting, florida, Madden tournament

As per the norm of the cycle, you have people on social media predicting the general statements made based on shooter's background

NRA telling us how we should address this. Funny, there's a distinct lack of "Thoughts and Prayers" on that tweet.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque

[expshare]

The twin towers collapsing isn't exactly a good justification for killing children in another country.

Edited August 28, 2018 by expshare

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, expshare said:

The twin towers collapsing isn't exactly a good justification for killing children in another country.

Especially a country(Really... multiple countries) that didn't really have anything to do with 9/11.

But again, that was a bad time for nearly all politicians.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Slumber

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, expshare said:

The twin towers collapsing isn't exactly a good justification for killing children in another country.

 

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Especially a country(Really... multiple countries) that didn't really having anything to do with 9/11.

If neither of you are capable of seeing what happened, and WHY in context, keep this to yourselves.

[expshare]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

 

If neither of you are capable of seeing what happened, and WHY in context, keep this to yourselves.

I see a country that continued to keep bombing innocent civilians even after knowing that innocent civilians, including children, were dying. That's intentional. You don't drop bombs unintentionally. It's a calculated decision, and the go-ahead was given over and over again despite the costs to life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex

Edited August 28, 2018 by expshare

[XRay]

27 minutes ago, expshare said:

I see a country that continued to keep bombing innocent civilians even after knowing that innocent civilians, including children, were dying. That's intentional. You don't drop bombs unintentionally. It's a calculated decision, and the go-ahead was given over and over again despite the costs to life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex

It is one thing to say the United States fucked up and made lots of mistakes, such as causing civilian casualties, but oversimplification and accusing the United States of going into the Middle East just to kill children is something else entirely different.

[expshare]

29 minutes ago, XRay said:

It is one thing to say the United States fucked up and made lots of mistakes, such as causing civilian casualties, but oversimplification and accusing the United States of going into the Middle East just to kill children is something else entirely different.

Also completely ignoring what someone writes and putting words in their mouth is entirely different. I said they killed children and they knew they were killing children. I never said the military aim was to kill children, but that killing children was an accepted consequence of their military strategies.

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, expshare said:

Also completely ignoring what someone writes and putting words in their mouth is entirely different. I said they killed children and they knew they were killing children. I never said the military aim was to kill children, but that killing children was an accepted consequence of their military strategies.

3 hours ago, expshare said:

The twin towers collapsing isn't exactly a good justification for killing children in another country.

1 hour ago, expshare said:

I see a country that continued to keep bombing innocent civilians even after knowing that innocent civilians, including children, were dying. That's intentional. You don't drop bombs unintentionally. It's a calculated decision, and the go-ahead was given over and over again despite the costs to life.

The first post made no mention of the United States having any other aim besides killing children.

The second post ignores the fact that the military does try to avoid bombing civilians. Guided missiles and commando units are a thing to take out important targets with minimal civilian casualty. Hell, if we really did not care about life, we could have just carpet bombed the shit out of those countries instead of putting boots on the ground.