General US Politics

[Captain Karnage]

On 1/29/2019 at 4:55 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

 

In the political climate of today, anything that resembles forcing education on the masses will lead to significant backfire. It's foolish.

Let's try to make vaccinations mandatory first so we can get rid of those anti-vaxxer parents.

On 1/29/2019 at 6:53 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

SOCIALISM IS BAD LOOK AT VENEZUELA!

umm, have you seen what's been happening there lately,  like how their economy crashed and that WoW gold is worth more than their equivalent dollar. The US doesn't recognize Maduro as the leader of the country 

[Moblin Major General]

10 minutes ago, Captain Karnage said:

umm, have you seen what's been happening there lately,  like how their economy crashed and that WoW gold is worth more than their equivalent dollar. The US doesn't recognize Maduro as the leader of the country 

No one is disputing that Venezuela is bad. It's just that conservatives think anything even resembling socialism is bad. You cherry picked a quote to make an "uh actually" and that's not the way you get people to agree with you.

[Shoblongoo]

The American Right taking up the habit of mislabeling every progressive reform from minimum wage laws to public healthcare as "socialism" is precisely why for many young voters who never grew up when the Cold War was a thing and and have only what today's Republicans describe as "socialism" as their frame-of-reference,  socialism is no longer considered a dirty word. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Tryhard]

2 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

umm, have you seen what's been happening there lately,  like how their economy crashed and that WoW gold is worth more than their equivalent dollar. The US doesn't recognize Maduro as the leader of the country 

you're not going to find me defending Maduro, but the American conservatives really do have themselves to blame with the dulling of the words socialist and communist. When they spend 8 years calling Obama both of those, which is the biggest joke I've ever heard, it loses the intended meaning.

But most people will pivot to supporting social policies, welfare statism, etc, instead of socialism as an ideology, and that's why those social policies are overwhelmingly popular in America today despite adversity. Social policies have been proven to work.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Tryhard

[Shoblongoo]

To be clear: "socialism" as the term was generally used and understood during the Cold War (i.e. a soviet-style system of authoritarian government characterized by government ownership of absolutely everything, no private property rights or freedom to transact private business, and general disregard for human rights) is absolutely horrific.

When modern Republicans use the term "socialism" they are describing liberal democracies with free markets, private property, and progressive policies in public services + taxation. 

  

 

[BrightBow]

It's honestly a really crazy situation to watch from the outside. I mean, how badly can you demonize someone for not wanting people to die from cureable diseases? Maybe one could see them as naive at worst, but this "Crush! Kill! Destroy!" attitude makes no sense. The country comes across like it's genuine at a point where evil is a virtue and compassion is the worst of sins.

Edited January 31, 2019 by BrightBow

[Shoblongoo]

15 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

The country comes across like it's genuine at a point where evil is a virtue and compassion is the worst of sins.

Oh if Jesus himself rose from the dead tomorrow and ran for President on a platform that social responsibility and goodwill towards men is more important than net worth and #winning, he'd be lampooned as a dirty hippy and a libtard cuck.     

[Dr. Tarrasque]

12 hours ago, Captain Karnage said:

umm, have you seen what's been happening there lately,  like how their economy crashed and that WoW gold is worth more than their equivalent dollar. The US doesn't recognize Maduro as the leader of the country 

As others have said, no one disputes that the situation in Venezuela is awful and that isn't the point. "SOCIALISM IS BAD LOOK AT VENEZUELA!" is a talking point conservatives, specially the ones serving the rich, have turned into a card they can just play to completely undermine and repel other conservatives from any discussion that involves expanding our social policies or anything that involves helping the common people even though they'd benefit from it themselves. So while you've got these assholes playing that card, nothing really happens when the GOP is looking to pass more tax cuts to the rich and look to "make up for excessive spending" by cutting from Social Security and Medicare while claiming they're "fiscally conservative" and hiding the fact that countries currently considered better places to live have better safety nets and expanded social policies.

But that's how effective their propaganda has been, you looked at that talking point at face value and tried to defend it because that's all they'll tell you so that when they call something "SOCIALIST", you turn to that one example and agree with them when they're actually trying to turn you against other people like you who have no power. Here's an example of that from just yesterday, from a fucking Congressman:

 

https://twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1090664518353649664

7 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Oh if Jesus himself rose from the dead tomorrow and ran for President on a platform that social responsibility and goodwill towards men is more important than net worth and #winning, he'd be lampooned as a dirty hippy and a libtard cuck.     

If Jesus rose from the dead, the argument that he was actually brown-skinned ends up being true, shows up at the southern border seeking asylum and that gets televised all over the place, you'd probably have conservatives looking to go down there and shoot him down cause "JESUS IS WHITE".

Conservatives of today, specially the ones that still support Trump are just proving on a daily basis that they're fucking hypocrites just cherry-picking and spinning data/statements to try and backup their talking points while turning a blind eye and forgiving ALL transgressions they accuse Obama and Hillary of when it's someone on their team. If there's any group of common people that don't deserve to vote like someone of the founding fathers thought, it is definitely them but instead, it's been based on the color of someone's skin or their gender and the GOP in power would love nothing more than to go back to those days while the common people underestimate how much they're leaning towards creating a white supremacist america.

EDIT: And yet another report under Trump's own administration that contradicts him, this time on his drug talking points used to defend his border wall.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Time the Crestfallen]

11 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

To be clear: "socialism" as the term was generally used and understood during the Cold War (i.e. a soviet-style system of authoritarian government characterized by government ownership of absolutely everything, no private property rights or freedom to transact private business, and general disregard for human rights) is absolutely horrific.

When modern Republicans use the term "socialism" they are describing liberal democracies with free markets, private property, and progressive policies in public services + taxation.

What's especially funny to me is that this dynamic isn't even internally consistent across their talking points. Conservative politicians and pundits have spent decades watering down the definition of 'Socialism' to the point where it's just used as a catch-all term for, as you said, any form of fiscally progressive policy, but then when people take conservative's own definition of the word and use it to point out Nordic countries as good examples of Socialism, then all of a sudden they become experts in Marxist Theory and can correctly identify that a strong social safety net and heavier taxation isn't indicative of socialism.

**Cough Cough** Charlie Kirk **Cough Cough**

Edited February 1, 2019 by Time the Crestfallen

[Pixelman]

23 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Conservatives of today, specially the ones that still support Trump are just proving on a daily basis that they're fucking hypocrites just cherry-picking and spinning data/statements to try and backup their talking points while turning a blind eye and forgiving ALL transgressions they accuse Obama and Hillary of when it's someone on their team. If there's any group of common people that don't deserve to vote like someone of the founding fathers thought, it is definitely them but instead, it's been based on the color of someone's skin or their gender and the GOP in power would love nothing more than to go back to those days while the common people underestimate how much they're leaning towards creating a white supremacist america.

EDIT: And yet another report under Trump's own administration that contradicts him, this time on his drug talking points used to defend his border wall.

Ehhhhhh I doubt the GOP in power really want to create a white supremacist america. Didn't they all just unilaterally dismantle Steve King for saying stupid shit about white supremacy or whatever? That was fairly recently

16 hours ago, Time the Crestfallen said:

**Cough Cough** Charlie Kirk **Cough Cough**

Ugh, I can't stand this guy. Very elitist and loud and seems more concerned with his super idealism (SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM) rather than any form of practicality.

[Excellen Browning]

A decent chunk of the world outside the US has done fairly well with a bit of socialism. There's also countries that are as poor as some parts of the US that still afford a bit of socialism.

I mean, I'm not sure if it's possible in the US, on the federal level(theoretically or practically), to pass a bunch of laws that would force some of the more backwards states out of the 18th century, but one can hope.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:59 PM, Pixelman said:

Ehhhhhh I doubt the GOP in power really want to create a white supremacist america. Didn't they all just unilaterally dismantle Steve King for saying stupid shit about white supremacy or whatever? That was fairly recently

Yes, that did happen but it is most likely to save face and get points with their base because it puts them in a good light on the uninformed whites that aren't downright racist, literally throwing him under the bus to make themselves look less bad. They're not really pushing for him to resign or for someone to primary him, all they're really doing is just SAYING he said a bad thing and removing him from committee assignments. He's still there to provide a vote for the party. Also compare it with the situation of Ralph Northam, a Democrat people are calling on him to resign.

It's like with the confederacy flag, people who want to keep the symbolism around will tell you that they're not racist, that they're not supporters of white supremacists and that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery but it doesn't change the fact the intent of the flag is to be a symbol of white supremacy and that's literally what the designer said himself.

The MAGA hat is a similar story, white supremacists and other racist Trump supporters wear it proudly because they know what "Make America Great Again" truly means under Trump. Reagan also used the slogan "Make America Great Again" but this was at a time when the US was getting worse due to stagflation while under Trump's campaign run, we got out of the mess that Bush's tax cuts made and started to see a stable economy. Trump used the slogan to rally the racists that felt defeated under Obama by constantly attacking Obama and running on a populist platform but he also disguised it to appeal to those who lost jobs due to environmentally friendly policies and regulations. People against Trump see that he is a racist and have taken their disdain to great lengths by banning people from wearing the hat or just being cautious/hostile when interacting with folks wearing that hat. White Supremacists have taken note of this and they lure the Trump supporters that AREN'T racist to their side by convincing them that the liberals are actually the ones being intolerant and that "we MAGAts are the real victims". Does that sound familiar? A tactic the right currently uses to divide non-whites is the suggestion that Democrats are trying to convince non-whites that they're victims just to get their vote, this was a fundamental part of the #WalkAway meme. Literally projecting what they're doing with the non-racists and misinformed MAGAts on the Democrats and non-whites.

The GOP will tell you that they condemn white supremacists and that they do not share their ideals but in the end, they do prefer a white supremacist America, not just because some of them are white supremacists themselves but because it is a good portion of their base is and the GOP are effectively becoming the white supremacist party as evidenced by white supremacists running as congressmen under the GOP ticket. They're terrified of these people running only because they thought they would definitely lose and would make the party as whole look bad but it was the same thing with how they hated Trump during the campaign and they embraced him when it became clear he was the most popular Republican nominee for 2016 because they're more interested in winning. The populist platform was just that good at the time and it still is.

The fact of the matter is that even though there's been progress made in the Civil Rights battle, the US is still a country where White Supremacy IS above equality because to this day, the 2-party system has one side that is conservative and the roadblock to more progress in the civil rights battle. When you put aside the part of the GOP trying to enrich themselves with money via this "Pay to Play" lobbying and look at the policies they're enacting and blocking... what exactly is it that conservatives are trying to conserve? Let's look at some of their actions...

Number one: Fighting AGAINST making it easier for EVERYONE to vote. Here you have McConnell blasting the ideal of making Election day a federal holiday and encouraging employers to give the day off to their workers so they can get out and vote, stating that it is a power grab move by the Democrats. A proposal that is bipartisan at its core is a "power grab" by one party. Currently, the majority of voters are the older folks and the GOP wants to keep it that way because this generation is both the easiest to misinform and the pool with a larger chance to have people support racist policies because while it is a stereotype, there are old folks out who will latch on to the idea of changing things to how it used to be "back in the good old days", specially if they're racists. You also have the voter suppression that was going on in Georgia and the voter fraud that happened in North Carolina, both conducted by the GOP. The GOP is also the party desperately wants to maintain the Electoral college because it allows them to give more power to the smaller states they work to maintain are stronghold to have more power over the Presidential election and when you set up that election to make so that a large portion of the country's vote effectively not matter, coupled with the fact that you have to forego time you either spend on yourself of taking care of obligations in order to vote, it's no surprise that people have less incentive to vote and when the presidential election is like that, most people will be convinced that their local elections do not matter when it's the complete opposite! 

Number two: Faux outrage and constant emotional manipulation meant to maintain the white folks still servile to their base by tapping into their hate. Any kill by a non-white person is rampantly covered on conservative media (see Fox News coverage of Mollie Tibbets' killer and how they tried to exploit that event to push for the wall) while right-wing terrorism or mass shootings is either brushed aside or the perpetrator is painted as a victim. The GOP actively engages in convincing their voters that non-whites, liberals and government employees that aren't Republicans are their enemies, to reiterate something from not too long ago: Jim Jordan antagonizing government employees, as a distraction from the facts the GOP is refusing to pay furloughed workers of the government shutdown, the GOP is pushing for more tax cuts for the rich, the progressive Democrats are pushing for Minimum Wage increase that the GOP constantly obstruct. The GOP takes no issue with the employment or cooperating with a far-right activist known for creating fake news and articles of white supremacist nature.

Number three: Perpetuating the war on drugs and our broken justice system. It's been known for a long time that weed isn't really a big deal but it's still criminalized in the country and kept in place as an excuse to lock up more black people. It starts with Nixon and his own aide admitted it. There's no good reason to keep going with this war on drugs but the GOP block any attempts at doing away with it always using the talking point "Weed is a gateway drug that will get you hooked up on other drugs" which has no evidence or basis for support other than their base being against it because they're told to be. So why do they keep insisting that we keep criminalizing weed? Who benefits from this? Who sees more harm from this? Has it sunk in yet that an argument with no credible substance is currently maintained by our government as it hurts colored folks more while arguments pushing for this to be undone with evidence to back it up as far back as the 60s? White Supremacists love this because one of their favorite talking points is to say that blacks are inferior because they're violent and have the most crime per capita but when they're shifting gears into defending their "whites are being attacked! white genocide IS happening!", they'll point out how there are more arrests on whites. Education programs for incarcerated people have been axed and the GOP obstructs all effort to give people that have served their time the ability to vote and look for a job because they know that it's non-whites who are disproportionately incriminated more. This is something many people will point to when they argue that there is such a thing as "white privilege" and the Conservatives will adamantly push that this "white privilege" thing is just an attack on whites... except that even white folks the justice system favors them.

Number four: The damn border wall they're pushing. They know it's a colossal waste of money that will have insignificant impact on the illegal immigration issue but it's what the white supremacists want and it's what's working to keep the Republican base riled up, in fact, Here's Rick Scott pushing for the wall to do just that. One of their arguments is that they want to reduce illegal immigration but recent data suggests there's more going on at the northern so why is the wall being pushed for the southern border in this case? They've also argued it's to stop drugs but apparently, we're doing just fine with that with the situation as it is. The wall is on Trump's agenda because it's what the racist majority of his base want.

TL;DR: The GOP wants a white supremacist America because such a country will be easier for them to control and maintain their power. Kentucky is the second state most dependent on federal money, is among the most racist states and the fools have kept electing Mitch McConnell so much that he's been in the senate for 3 fucking decades. A white supremacist America would be easy for them if they just keep following Lyndon Johnson once said:

Quote

I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

If Americans want the country to be #1 or simply better, the GOP's hold on them needs to be destroyed.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Pixelman]

I don't really know how to respond to this other than thanking you for your response, because you put a lot of work into it (and I did read all of it) and I understand where you're coming from. Kinda puts certain things into perspective when it comes to America and groups of people in the Republican Party.

May I ask two more questions? I personally believe that so long as people think differently, there will always be a conservative vs liberal divide among the people. What do you think, then, should be a conservative parties role in a two-party system?

Also, do you think advocating for a "small government" is simply not feasible anymore? As in, is the ideology of "states can do whatever, the federal government is limited in scope" not possible in this day and age, and that the government is "doomed" to get bigger and bigger?

EDIT: Anyone can answer these questions. They are not exclusive to @Dr. Tarrasque.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pixelman

[Moblin Major General]

The role of a conservative party is to allow for a time of reflection on progress before more progress is made. The Republicans are instead actively regressive, which is not how it should be. Progress needs to be tempered and controlled, not volatile and swinging.

I think small government is possible once money is taken out of politics. Without bribes (call them what they are, not what the PACs say they are) stop, there's a lot more incentive to let the states have more leeway with what they want.

[Excellen Browning]

7 hours ago, Pixelman said:

 

Also, do you think advocating for a "small government" is simply not feasible anymore? As in, is the ideology of "states can do whatever, the federal government is limited in scope" not possible in this day and age, and that the government is "doomed" to get bigger and bigger?

EDIT: Anyone can answer these questions. They are not exclusive to @Dr. Tarrasque.

The idea of "we should keep the government as small as possible" is not inherently wrong, but since give or take the eighties most of the people who argue from that point of view in the US have been completely wrong and have stood in the way of obviously better ways of doing things. 

And yes, the obvious way forward in my opinion is for the federal government to force a bunch of states that have tried very hard to stay in the 19th century to get with the program in terms of things like health care, social security, education, labour law and employment protection. Because lord knows these states aren't going to do this by themselves.

[Shoblongoo]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:59 PM, Pixelman said:

Ehhhhhh I doubt the GOP in power really want to create a white supremacist america. Didn't they all just unilaterally dismantle Steve King for saying stupid shit about white supremacy or whatever? That was fairly recently

What they want is to secure the party-brand loyalty of the ~30% of the country that does.

(Bearing in mind that ~30% of the country largely resides in low-population rural states that have a disproportionately high number of Senators and electoral college votes due to the way our federal system is set up. So long as you can keep that particular chunk of the electorate staunchly loyal, you can feasibly hold a Senate majority and the White House even with the majority of the country against you + the more broad-based and pluralistic "minority party" getting more votes. They're doing it right now.)

To that extent: they cater to the white supremacists on their chief issues. (i.e. support for stronger immigration controls, opposition to "political correctness," support for "stand your ground" laws + unfettered gun rights for whites, opposition to criminal justice reform + naked hostility to those "cop-hating," "thug" protesters who keep insisting it should be illegal for cops to shoot unarmed black kids then get away with it by crying 'I thought he had a gun!')  

And they know or should know that the positions they are staking out and the signals they are sending are blatantly, inexcusably racist. 

Like--they know "I'm against political correctness" is a thinly veiled euphemism for "It use to be mainstream-acceptable to be openly racist and chauvinistic and now there's a social stigma attached to it and that's not right; we need to go back to the days when it was mainstream-acceptable to be openly racist and chauvinistic."

They don't care.

If they aren't outright White Supremacists, the Trump era GOP is at the very least amoral enough that pandering to White Supremacists and coveting their support isn't sufficiently repulsive to them to dissuade them from doing it.

And whether the GOP "wants to create a white supremacist America" or merely caters to the people that do in a shameless appeal for power may well be a distinction-without-a-difference.

When it comes down to the leadership they provide and the policies they support and the direction they pull the country: the result is the same.   

Edited February 5, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On 2/4/2019 at 8:50 AM, Hylian Air Force said:

I think small government is possible once money is taken out of politics. Without bribes (call them what they are, not what the PACs say they are) stop, there's a lot more incentive to let the states have more leeway with what they want.

And improved Education among the populace. It's so much easier to argue for less power to the government because you don't really need to back up your argument, it's something you can make appealing to anyone you talk to because nobody likes the idea of being controlled or restricted by others. Meanwhile if you're on the side suggesting that there IS room for government regulation, it typically falls on you to do all the work to explain and defend why certain regulations exist anyway. Abortion is a good example at this time given the increasing Anti-Abortion protests enabled after the Kavanaugh debacle.

@Lord Raven I guess this is what it takes for middle class folks to turn on Trump. Wonder if turning a blind eye to his racism and gaslighting was worth this.
 

Then there's documents that pretty much destroy all "no collusion" arguments

@Pixelman As for the conservative party's role in a two-party system? Basically what Hylian Air Force said. Healthcare and Income inequality are some things they've been "conservative" on for ages. How many years will it take them to change their stance on the matter and stop harming the common people the way they currently are? "Medicare for All" is only polling higher as the Trump presidency continues and even Fox News are horrified to find that 70% of their own viewers do want to tax the rich like AOC suggests and 65% suggested doing it at 1 fucking million. In the past I've mentioned that I would be for expanding the death penalty to be used as punishment to corrupt politicians. When I see news of McConnell's doing and shit like this from the lesser of two evils, it's certainly starting to look like it'd probably be better to kill off these corrupt politicians over letting things go as they are to the point where the non-rich will seek to lynch the rich or worse, a civil war between Trump supporters and everyone else.

It sucks to say it but those tweets of folks deciding not to vote for Trump because of their taxes is good news at the expense of many folks.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Time the Crestfallen]

That little conversation about how the word 'Socialism' is used by the GOP is looking downright prophetic now.

Imagine still complaining about Socialism in reference to policies that basically every other 'Western' country has successfully implemented without much trouble.

[Tryhard]

Ask any modern Republican politician if they can define what socialism is. I'm sure the answer will be hilarious.

They will either inadvertently describe the society that the US had under previous Republican presidents like Eisenhower, or they will just repeat "Venezuela" without expanding on it.

[Slumber]

10 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

It sucks to say it but those tweets of folks deciding not to vote for Trump because of their taxes is good news at the expense of many folks.

It's a shame nobody told them that voting for a "billionaire" businessman with 0 political experience would cause this to happen 3 years ago. 

[Ϲharlie]

I actually remember Trump's political inexperience was a pretty common talking point at the time, but nobody cared.

[Time the Crestfallen]

2 hours ago, Tryhard said:

They will either inadvertently describe the society that the US had under previous Republican presidents like Eisenhower

And then when you take their framing of the term and start pointing at the Nordic countries as successful examples of what they would consider Socialism, they become overnight experts in Marxist Theory and start tripping over themselves to explain how they're not Socialist despite having implemented all of the policies they describe as being the slippery-slope towards Socialism.

2 hours ago, Tryhard said:

or they will just repeat "Venezuela" without expanding on it.

It gets especially funny when you remember that as early as 2010, FOX NEWS was openly belittling the idea of a Socialist Venezuela and pointing out how 2/3rds of their economy is owned by the Private Sector. It's funny how they dismiss the idea that Venezuela is a Socialist country up until the point where said Private Sector ownership, extreme wealth inequality, and US sanctions are what cause things to get so fucked up, and then it's right back to the 'Socialism/Communism killed 100 gazillion people in the time it took me to boil the kettle' memes.

[Excellen Browning]

1 hour ago, Ϲharlie said:

I actually remember Trump's political inexperience was a pretty common talking point at the time, but nobody cared.

And I think that the Trump presidency is a good example of having no political experience not mattering as much. 

He hasn't been president for 2 years and has carried out a solid number of his election promises. 

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Ϲharlie said:

I actually remember Trump's political inexperience was a pretty common talking point at the time, but nobody cared.

I was being facetious. Plenty of people brought up the implications of electing Trump, and lo and behold, here we are, with his base upset with something everyone told them would happen. 

14 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

He hasn't been president for 2 years and has carried out a solid number of his election promises. 

Political experience doesn't matter much when it comes to making decisions when you're the most powerful man in the world. Especially when every other branch of the government is part of the same party. 

Political experience matters a whole lot when it comes to making informed decisions. 

Trump's fulfilled campaign promises, but how many of them are working out as intended? Or without caveats? 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Slumber

[Dr. Tarrasque]

57 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Trump's fulfilled campaign promises, but how many of them are working out as intended? Or without caveats? 

Or better yet, what about the many promises broken, several of them now negatively impacting his voters.

"But he is fulfilling campaign promises". News flash, undoing regulations is easy. Passing more welfare to the rich is super easy under the current government.