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On 9/9/2019 at 4:37 AM, Excellen Browning said:

If you ask me the French nobility getting guillotined was the end of it.

History disagrees.  IMO that mentality is a part of human nature, so as long as we're around, it'll be around in some way, shape, or form.

On 9/9/2019 at 8:10 AM, Shoblongoo said:

^^^
So Bernie Sanders just rolled out an interesting little policy proposal on-point here.  He's calling it the "Bezos Act."

The proposed law would tax companies for the welfare received by their employees.  

I get the theory behind the proposal. The idea is that if companies want to cut labor costs and raise profits at the expense of taxpayers by underpaying their workers + shifting the cost of covering their baseline expenses to public assistance, then a cost should be imposed upon them for doing this to make the decision an unprofitable one. 

Employers would then have profit-motive to pay their employees a living wage, because it would be less expensive to simply pay a living wage then to pay the punitive tax for underpaying your employees so badly that they qualify for welfare.

Thoughts???

 

I'd need to see how the numbers pan out.  Depending on how it's implemented, it could either go as intended (not likely) or some lawyer-or-other finds a way to screw over workers even harder.

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25 minutes ago, eclipse said:

History disagrees.  IMO that mentality is a part of human nature, so as long as we're around, it'll be around in some way, shape, or form.

I'd need to see how the numbers pan out.  Depending on how it's implemented, it could either go as intended (not likely) or some lawyer-or-other finds a way to screw over workers even harder.

Agreed. The big loophole I keep seeing abused is that alot of these wage laws are written to apply only to full-time employees; not to part-time employees. So the way employers evade them is that if they have an operational need  for--say--800 hours a week of manpower for a specific task...

...they'll hire 40 part-time employees to work 20 hours a week instead of 20 full-time employees to work 40 hours a week.

They just cut their full-time labor force and hire more people to work fewer hours.

The law has to be written with awareness of how employers attempt to evade it and with those loopholes closed.
 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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Just now, Shoblongoo said:

Agreed. The big loophole I keep seeing abused is that alot of these wage laws are written to apply only to full-time employees; not to part-time employees. So the way employers evade them is that if they have an operational need  for--say--800 hours a week of manpower for a specific task...

...they'll hire 40 part-time employees to work 20 hours a week instead of 20 full-time employees to work 40 hours a week.

They cut their full-time labor force and hire more power to work fewer hours.

The law has to be written with awareness of how employers attempt to evade it and with those loopholes closed.
 

I'm not sure how the restaurant business gets around the minimum wage law (something about tips), but I could see other businesses doing something akin to that if Bernie's proposal isn't vetted thoroughly enough.

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15 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'm not sure how the restaurant business gets around the minimum wage law (something about tips), but I could see other businesses doing something akin to that if Bernie's proposal isn't vetted thoroughly enough.

you're supposed to claim your tips as taxes, at least here in TN

however since it's all cash, I doubt anyone puts the exact amount they earned on it

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1 hour ago, Captain Karnage said:

you're supposed to claim your tips as taxes, at least here in TN

however since it's all cash, I doubt anyone puts the exact amount they earned on it

As a former server, I can tell you no one actually claims 100% of their tips.  It's usually that you declare 10% of whatever your sales were and keep the extra.

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16 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Regarding my early stance when i was actually using "might makes right", it was in reference to how we should be treating other countries. @Life was making the assertion that when it came to domestic affairs their country has a specific attitude toward dealing with their own inner turmoil and was explaining the atmosphere of the people as opposed to the ideals plus how we would handle the situation if we are ourselves were in the middle of that unrest/war. I think. Am i right? (to Life)

Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, ideals and morality tend to go out the window when war approaches.

Let me give a personal example (and this would be exactly what I mean when I say that I don't care much for Western morality when it comes to dealing with other nation-states).

In 2012, Operation Pillar of Fire happened where my unit and the entire army sat on the border of Gaza ready to invade while my home (I mean this in a literal sense due to living in Be'er Sheva at the time) caught a serious case of metal rain. Hell, when I came back, my local shopping mall had a giant hole in the ceiling from a rocket that had hit it.

Right before we are supposed go in, my officer comes up to us and tells us a few things in complete seriousness:

1) The Geneva Convention pamphet that is required by the UN for every soldier to hold isn't worth the paper that it was printed on. If we have it on us, we should tear it up.

2) If any of us are going to be captured by Hamas, shoot the soldier, even if it is our officer. Better that Hamas has a dead body than a live man.

3) Shoot anything without a helmet. Period.

It's important to understand that these words were coming from a man who (and I really don't exaggerate when I say this) could effectively order me to my death and I would go because I knew that he would be right beside me until the end. This is a man that I (and the rest of my friends) respect and revere even to this day.

All three of these things go against Western morality principles... because it doesn't account for the realities of war where ordinary men become monsters of necessity.

So when I say "might makes right", it means that war is the ultimate argument solver. Positions of "we deserve this because we were here first" (this applies to us too) don't matter if you cannot hold onto the land in the first place. Had Israel lost any of its wars, it would be subject to the same position (we couldn't hold onto what we had captured, therefore it's not ours and shouldn't be ours unless the owner willingly parts with it).

This doesn't mean that I enjoy war. I hate it because I've seen it first hand. But I don't put ideology before reality (which is kinda funny because I caused issues during my service twice about refusing to enter the Lehi museum on uniform on the basis that Lehi were Jewish terrorists that intentionally targeted Arab communities in the dead of night rather than soldiers with the civilians being caught in the crossfire).

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14 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

John Bolton has been fired. He texted Kilmeade in the middle of a segment saying he resigned.

Did Trump truly fire John Bolton because he disagreed with his warmongering?

Did Bolton resign because he no longer saw opportunity to be successful in starting a war with Iran or Venezuela?

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump fired him because he's the existing cabinet member that's praised/defended him the least as of late.

Regardless. Bolton no longer being in that position is a good thing. I'd give credit to Trump on removing him but it's the same as thanking the arson for putting out a fire when they intentionally set it off in the first place.

The most likely, and most stupid answer is that Bolton himself resigned over the whole Taliban thing, and that Trump noticed that Bolton was unpopular enough that he could score brownie points by making the resignation effective immediately and firing him.

Trump trying to make Bolton's firing about himself is too on-brand for me to think anything else happened.

Edited by Slumber
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8 hours ago, Life said:

It's important to understand that these words were coming from a man who (and I really don't exaggerate when I say this) could effectively order me to my death and I would go because I knew that he would be right beside me until the end. This is a man that I (and the rest of my friends) respect and revere even to this day.

All three of these things go against Western morality principles... because it doesn't account for the realities of war where ordinary men become monsters of necessity.

Oh no, don't worry, we soldiers think that like that and hold the same feelings. Civilians on the other hand don't understand or never experience these feelings. What's funny is they'd scorn and spurn us for this mentality, yet here we are defending these ungrateful citizens. I'd like to point out to any civilians reading this, i'm not saying 100% of the soldiers think like this. But i bet you my annual income that more than 90% of those in infantry think like this and live by this philosophy. They probably just won't show it or let it be known. Outside of infantry, it'd be kinda hard to gauge how many feel/think like this. To not exaggerate a big number and keep it modest, i'd say about a good 30%. 

I'll never forget reception (after you enter B.C.T. and start boot camp). We were all huddled up and our Drill Sergeant when down a list of like about 7 or 8 questions revolving around "why did you join". Out of my company (and soon to be my platoon) less than 10 hands went up to reasons like getting school paid for, to travel, to show off to women, cause they didn't know what else to do. Yet over 70 hands went up when he asked "how many of you joined to kill people?" At this point, i'd like to make the assertion that even before the army can turn you into a "monster", some of those who join are already leaning toward being murderers. Civilians should be happy those people just didn't do it BEFORE they joined.

But i majorly digress from the original topic to which i was first responding to. InterObserver's question on how to debate with facts to people against immigration. I think i'll go ahead and bow out of this thread and go back to lurking again. More importantly, i started my new-game+ play thru

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8 hours ago, Life said:

Had Israel lost any of its wars, it would be subject to the same position

Oi you're giving the Palestinians too much credit.

If Israel had lost any of its wars you wouldn't be under occupation. You'd be dead. 

 

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4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Oi you're giving the Palestinians too much credit.

If Israel had lost any of its wars you wouldn't be under occupation. You'd be dead. 

Yeah, we should get some brownie points for at least attempting to make peace. Even if it's kinda half-hearted at times.

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On 9/10/2019 at 7:03 PM, Tryhard said:

Bolton is (was?) the most dangerous person that I would point to in the US government. Finally some good news.

Alas...

Edited by Tryhard
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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Is that even legal?

I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if it is by virtue of there being no rules/law against such behavior. A lot of the legislative process assumes that all parties involved are acting in good faith but as it has been shown by several Republican politicians, they're not.

Democrats are constantly being surprised and blindsided when the Republicans break precedence and take underhanded actions like this and the Merrick Garland fiasco. It seems to be a smaller portion of them that see the reality.

Republicans demonstrate their disdain for the system of government we have on a daily basis and at this point they simply believe that things have to go their way and if not, either take away power or have the offender cease to exist.

It still pisses me off to no end that Biden thinks we should work with these assholes. They need to be removed from office and several them probably deserved it if they end up being assassinated... McConnell is certainly among those. The way the Republicans operate will draw ire from common people in the future and on the rare occasion that an attempt has been made on a Republican politician, the right-wing cries "RADICAL LEFTIST VIOLENCE" and plays victim with the claim that it's due to their "Conservative values".

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

https://www.salon.com/2019/09/14/facebook-removed-doctors-fact-check-of-false-anti-abortion-video-because-ted-cruz-complained/

Wait wait wait, isn't this one closer to actually being a violation of the 1st Amendment than anything conservatives have been bitching about lately? What the actual fuck.

If this is a violation of the 1st Amendment, then the entire removal of right wing YouTube channels and Facebook pages are... what exactly?

Remember when Tulsi Gabbard had her entire Facebook page taken down immediately following the 2nd Democratic debates? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

Funny how only now you're up in arms about protecting the 1st Amendment.

Edited by Life
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1 hour ago, Life said:

If this is a violation of the 1st Amendment, then the entire removal of right wing YouTube channels and Facebook pages are... what exactly?

Remember when Tulsi Gabbard had her entire Facebook page taken down immediately following the 2nd Democratic debates? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

Funny how only now you're up in arms about protecting the 1st Amendment.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/20/cens-f20.html
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/twitter-political-account-ban-us-mid-term-elections
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/11/facebook-purge-page-removal-spam
https://theintercept.com/2017/12/30/facebook-says-it-is-deleting-accounts-at-the-direction-of-the-u-s-and-israeli-governments/
https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/twitter-bans-ed-brian-krassenstein-brothers-fake-accounts-1203225266/

And for a bonus, there has been a tracker of 'free speech incidents' that happens at academic institutions in the US - accounting for those, it is found that around 75% of them are actually directed at 'left-wing' victims.
https://freespeechproject.georgetown.edu/
https://www.niskanencenter.org/there-is-no-campus-free-speech-crisis-a-close-look-at-the-evidence/

I've never heard any right-wing commentator talk about left-wing accounts being removed.

Is it possible that people are likely only to care about such things when they can engage in tribalism?

Edited by Tryhard
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37 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I've never heard any right-wing commentator talk about left-wing accounts being removed.

Is it possible that people are likely only to care about such things when they can engage in tribalism?

This was the first thing that popped into my head when I read that and I didn't even need to do a Google search. Probably because this happened a week ago.

It's not my fault if you don't look for yourself.

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Well Sargon is on the left, according to him, isn't he? 😆

Just if you're going to use the claim that "nobody cared" about Tulsi Gabbard's situation, then perhaps ignorance is a valid excuse, considering I didn't even know about that either.

Perhaps making such generalising arguments about the left or right on social media is bullshit - but it's what I've observed. It's only a few that are principled enough to care enough to actually defend their opponents.

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10 hours ago, Life said:

If this is a violation of the 1st Amendment, then the entire removal of right wing YouTube channels and Facebook pages are... what exactly?

Remember when Tulsi Gabbard had her entire Facebook page taken down immediately following the 2nd Democratic debates? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

Yeah no, don't give me that garbage. Facebook, Twitter and other Social Media platforms removing right-wing crap that goes against their platforms terms of service IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT attacking Free Speech since you know, THEY AREN'T THE DAMN GOVERNMENT. 

Quote

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Sure, they aren't explicitly trying to make a law but given how these are all men IN CONGRESS, they have no business trying to shut down media and scientists telling them that they're fucking wrong just because it's "biased against our conservative values". This coming from their current leadership is just more evidence of how fucking stupid many conservatives today are when it comes to the first amendment.

10 hours ago, Life said:

Funny how only now you're up in arms about protecting the 1st Amendment.

No, I'm "up in arms" about it because IT'S A GODDAMN GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL ORDERING THE REMOVAL OF SPEECH. These days the conservatives constantly whine and bitch about how the left is trying to make the government more powerful and leading to the tyrannical dictatorship the 2nd amendment was made for and yet here you have a prime example of the kind of shit the founding fathers were talking about when they made the 1st amendment. Try complaining about social media platforms removing right-wing content after conservatives wash away the stench of their perpetual hypocrisy.

I don't care where you stand on the political spectrum but you have to realize by now that the American right is complete and utter self-destructive joke that would embrace a dictatorship if they thought they could win a second civil war. If Conservatives want to be taken seriously, THEY should be constantly demanding their members of congress to proceed with impeaching that orange turd as their starting point.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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14 hours ago, Life said:

If this is a violation of the 1st Amendment, then the entire removal of right wing YouTube channels and Facebook pages are... what exactly?

Remember when Tulsi Gabbard had her entire Facebook page taken down immediately following the 2nd Democratic debates? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

Funny how only now you're up in arms about protecting the 1st Amendment.

Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, patreon, WhatsApp and Mumsnet are tools for racist forces far more than the anti-capitalist or green extremist movements.

 

Edit: pretty surprised that my phone autocorrects Mumsnet into having a capital M, but not patreon

Edited by Excellen Browning
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Big news of the day is of course the developing story that Trump tried to extort the Ukrainian government for negative headlines against Joe Biden, by withholding foreign aid funds allocated by Congress unless and until  they agreed to open a criminal investigation against The Biden Family's activities in the Ukraine. 

And the previous holdouts in Congress now coming out in support of impeachment + Pelosi signaling that she's going to make a 'major announcement' by Thursday.  

Just for the lulz, I googled the top headlines for the 3 main cable news networks as this story was breaking. And this is just so telling of the problem we have with misinformation and entertainment 'news' in this country:

Top Headline on MSNBC
Trump Confirms Witholding Aid from Ukraine; Claims he did Not ask For quid-pro-quo

Top Headline on CNN
Trump's Ukraine Drama: Live Updates 

Top Headline on FOX
San Francisco Comes up with Novel Approach to Roust Homeless People from Sidewalks 
 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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