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Kamala Harris is out:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-kamala-d-harris-drops-out-of-presidential-race/2019/12/03/5ea01f3e-15f7-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html?fbclid=IwAR3VrUNOyOfRRkDvxAJ48quem2EEELpN3Jberx1C9Ib6tNgLBnIfVWlagOk

For a moment in that first debate, she looked like she might actually be a top tier contender. 

Gabbard cleaned her clock in debate #2, and it was all downhill from there. 

Major upset for a campaign that had so much hype behind it.

And not a whole lot of support for her to be picked up by other candidates now that she's out. But for what its worth: Kamala WAS hated by The Leftists rallying behind Warren/Sanders, and fighting with Buttigeig/Biden for the centrists.

So with her supporters now searching again for other candidates to get behind: thats probably gonna be a slight bump for Buttieig and Biden. 

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Earlier today I saw a tweet ranting about the School Lunch Debt issue and they referenced the fact that we serve food to folks in prison. Then I wondered, "what would be the solution that conservatives like Ben Shapiro would propose if they read this tweet?"

Now I'm wondering if thinking that they would probably look to cut food for inmates is me being too hard on conservatives or if that's the reality we live in.

On the flip side, here's the Impeachment report

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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Honestly I was a bit annoyed when Harris announced her run for the presidency. We just elected her, and I wasn't looking to share

29 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Earlier today I saw a tweet ranting about the School Lunch Debt issue and they referenced the fact that we serve food to folks in prison. Then I wondered, "what would be the solution that conservatives like Ben Shapiro would propose if they read this tweet?"

Now I'm wondering if thinking that they would probably look to cut food for inmates is me being too hard on conservatives or if that's the reality we live in.

I'd much sooner expect conservatives to suggest cutting school lunches like they would any other education cuts. But what even is there to argue? Should we not serve food to prisoners -  expecting food to be brought to them exclusively by visitors like in ancient times? Folks like Ben Shapiro (who by far right standards is an extremely influential and well-groomed speaker) would not touch such an inflammatory moral question. He looks for easy targets. Obvious hypocracies. Twistable half-truths. Anything to help you "own the libs" in 140 characters or less.

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3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Earlier today I saw a tweet ranting about the School Lunch Debt issue and they referenced the fact that we serve food to folks in prison.

I think school lunches should be paid for with taxes, and we definitely need to stop serving shitty school lunches throughout the country. We are investing into our future here. While I am lucky that Sacramento serves pretty good school lunches (we serve some pretty good shit here, and we got some new entries I have not seen before; I remember a lot of us were rushing to the cafeteria so we can get all the good stuff before it sold out), school lunches are not exactly something students elsewhere in the country look forward to, and my time mingling in New York made it pretty clear to me that school lunches are not so amazing everywhere. Bland and uninteresting seems to be the norm for most people I meet when they tell me about their experience with school lunches.

3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Earlier today I saw a tweet ranting about the School Lunch Debt issue and they referenced the fact that we serve food to folks in prison. Then I wondered, "what would be the solution that conservatives like Ben Shapiro would propose if they read this tweet?"

Now I'm wondering if thinking that they would probably look to cut food for inmates is me being too hard on conservatives or if that's the reality we live in.

I think we already serve prisoners the cheapest food possible, and if conservatives really want to make prison life worse, they should probably stop privatizing the prison system, revert all of it back to government control, and then simply slash prison spending on anything not concerned with preventing prison escape. Reverting it back to government control technically makes the government bigger, but it also helps make sure that no one is spending more on prisons out of the goodness of their heart. Just because corporations are driven mostly by profit does not mean they are completely heartless.

Edited by XRay
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2 hours ago, XRay said:

school lunches are not exactly something students elsewhere in the country look forward to, and my time mingling in New York made it pretty clear to me that school lunches are not so amazing everywhere. Bland and uninteresting seems to be the norm for most people I meet when they tell me about their experience with school lunches.

I can vouch for that. There was literally one source of Pizza that I've hated in all my years of living in New York and it was from school lunch.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

I think we already serve prisoners the cheapest food possible, and if conservatives really want to make prison life worse, they should probably stop privatizing the prison system, revert all of it back to government control, and then simply slash prison spending on anything not concerned with preventing prison escape. Reverting it back to government control technically makes the government bigger, but it also helps make sure that no one is spending more on prisons out of the goodness of their heart. Just because corporations are driven mostly by profit does not mean they are completely heartless.

I'm sorry, what?

Yes, if you get rid of privatized prisons AND slash prison spending relative to what is currently spent today with privatized prisons, you'll make prison life worse. I'll give you that one. However...

1. Conservatives, at least the politicians anyway, will without a doubt be the biggest obstacle of doing away with privatized prisons. Doesn't seem like something their base would push for, specially because as you said, it would make the government bigger and the conservative will easily rally in support of their politicians on this because Fox News will tell them to.

2. The evidence suggests that privatized prisons aren't really saving money. Saving money is what private prisons pitched but they don't really do that.

3. Yeah... no. Private prison corporations aren't any nicer than big names of today facing backlash for underpaying their employees. The co-founder of CCA literally said you just sell prisons like Hamburgers, Cars or Real Estate. There's a study that suggests that private prisons punish inmates more than regular prisons and that's probably due to their incentive to profit off of that because they'll make more money the longer they keep people around and in some cases, a private prison will fine the state government if said prison actually isn't keeping enough people locked up to meet a quota. Really, it's all setup to keep people in jail as long as possible to maintain/increase profit.

As is, keeping private prisons around might as well be the effort to make prison life worse depending on which developed country you ask but it's not the case here in the US because that's our terrible norm and it's stuff a lot of people don't even know.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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2 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I'm sorry, what?

It is to prevent the unlikely scenario that a charity would do a hostile takeover of a prison company.

If the government has control over the prison system, charities cannot just buyout a company and give prisoners a better quality of life.

5 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

2. The evidence suggests that privatized prisons aren't really saving money. Saving money is what private prisons pitched but they don't really do that.

That is kind of the point. I think Republicans voters are self centered enough that they would prefer less taxes devoted to maintaining prisons for a slight increase in the size of government.

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33 minutes ago, XRay said:

It is to prevent the unlikely scenario that a charity would do a hostile takeover of a prison company.

If the government has control over the prison system, charities cannot just buyout a company and give prisoners a better quality of life.

In what world are any charities buying out corporations?

Most people don't know a thing about prisons or the prison system, or don't care, which is part of why private prisons get away with so much.

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50 minutes ago, Johann said:

In what world are any charities buying out corporations?

A world nicer than ours. I do not think it is beyond possibility even in our world though. Bill Gates' charity donated a lot of money helping fight malaria for example. If another rich person like him or Elon Musk decided that helping prisoners would be a good cause that greatly benefits humanity, I think they would do it.

50 minutes ago, Johann said:

Most people don't know a thing about prisons or the prison system, or don't care, which is part of why private prisons get away with so much.

I think people do know how bad prisons can get. We just do not prioritize making prisons better. It is one thing to rally behind justice reforms and get nonviolent and low risk inmates out of prisons who do not deserve the harshness, but it is another thing to get people as a whole to agree to make prisons a better places for all the inmates.

Edited by XRay
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"Why make it more comfortable for them?   If they're in prison, they deserve to be punished!"

IMO it'll take a major shift in thinking before the government makes prisons a better place.  I know other parts of the world see it differently, but they're not the ones running the US prison system.

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8 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Earlier today I saw a tweet ranting about the School Lunch Debt issue and they referenced the fact that we serve food to folks in prison. Then I wondered, "what would be the solution that conservatives like Ben Shapiro would propose if they read this tweet?"

Now I'm wondering if thinking that they would probably look to cut food for inmates is me being too hard on conservatives or if that's the reality we live in.

On the flip side, here's the Impeachment report

What's being spent on feeding inmates is insanely low, to my knowledge. Well less than $0.50 per inmate per day, depending on the prison you're in.

Meanwhile, in the normal world, living off $1 per day is about as low as you can possibly go without definitely not making your caloric intake. 

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3 hours ago, eclipse said:

"Why make it more comfortable for them?   If they're in prison, they deserve to be punished!"

IMO it'll take a major shift in thinking before the government makes prisons a better place.  I know other parts of the world see it differently, but they're not the ones running the US prison system.

That is pretty common and that is where I stand now. I like the idea of releasing non violent criminals, as often times it is drug related. I think equating drugs to really horrible shit like rape, theft, and murder is totally out of proportion and unreasonable. However, I do not think the the country should devote resources to make prisons better, we just need to keep people who do not belong there out.

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13 hours ago, XRay said:

I think school lunches should be paid for with taxes, and we definitely need to stop serving shitty school lunches throughout the country. We are investing into our future here. While I am lucky that Sacramento serves pretty good school lunches (we serve some pretty good shit here, and we got some new entries I have not seen before; I remember a lot of us were rushing to the cafeteria so we can get all the good stuff before it sold out), school lunches are not exactly something students elsewhere in the country look forward to, and my time mingling in New York made it pretty clear to me that school lunches are not so amazing everywhere. Bland and uninteresting seems to be the norm for most people I meet when they tell me about their experience with school lunches.

I think we already serve prisoners the cheapest food possible, and if conservatives really want to make prison life worse, they should probably stop privatizing the prison system, revert all of it back to government control, and then simply slash prison spending on anything not concerned with preventing prison escape. Reverting it back to government control technically makes the government bigger, but it also helps make sure that no one is spending more on prisons out of the goodness of their heart. Just because corporations are driven mostly by profit does not mean they are completely heartless.

Private prisons should be banned and exclusive control of the prison system should revert back to the government.

But for absolutely none of the reasons that you've just set forth. 

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23 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

But for absolutely none of the reasons that you've just set forth. 

It was a hypothetical of why a Republican might want to revert it back to government control.

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15 minutes ago, XRay said:

It was a hypothetical of why a Republican might want to revert it back to government control.

Well unfortunately--yes--that does sound sufficiently cruel and stupid to be what passes for a Republican hot take these days. (on point; check out the comment section in this thread: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/472962-two-dozen-baltimore-officers-charged-with-using-excessive-force-on)

To Clarify:

Private Prisons should be banned because when you privatize something, you turn it into a business rather than a public service.

And when something is a business rather than a public service; you aren't looking to do it in a manner that best serves the interests of public policy. You're doing it in a matter to try and make the most possible $$$ you can off of the subject business activity.

When the subject business activity is running a prison--you're looking to make the most possible $$$ by making the business as big as you can possibly make it. Which means passing more criminal laws with longer sentencing times and arresting and imprisoning as many people as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can, so that you can build more prisons and fill them with more prisoners.  

And that's how you get the highest incarceration rates in the world + prisons full of people that really shouldn't be there 
 

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2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Private Prisons should be banned because when you privatize something, you turn it into a business rather than a public service.

And when something is a business rather than a public service; you aren't looking to do it in a manner that best serves the interests of public policy. You're doing it in a matter to try and make the most possible $$$ you can off of the subject business activity.

I think it is possible to privatize something and make it work. Utility companies are generally privatized well (or at least in California, they kind of fucked up in Flint) because there are a lot of regulations on how they operate. We do use utilities everyday though, and it is harder to get people to care about things that do not happen as often like healthcare and prison. We are seeing a push for better healthcare since Republican voters care more about it now as they get older. I do not think we will see a push for better prison conditions until a significant amount of people go to prison.

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Are we talking about the fucked up prison system?  Torture camps more like it.  Not to mention the systematic racism (coke vs crack, biases), as well as how strongly the system goes against the poor.  Oh here  you go, all your freedom is taken away you are confined to a tiny cell.  Fine.  Oh yeah and Guards can beat the shit out of you whenever, you have to fight for you life against other inmates, assault/rape whatever and of course no one is going to do shit about it so you better be good in a fight or join a prison gang or be someone's bitch or whatever.  Then once you get out, way more fucked up than you were before you were in prison, good luck getting any job.  So then what is this prisoner going to end up doing?  Probably going back to crime, maybe bigger and more violent ones.  The prison system doesn't reform the prisoner, it certainly punishes them but they come out more dangerous and angry and likely fucked up than before.  

What if you can't afford bail, you are stuck in jail.  What about plea bargains it has been used to put many innocent poor behind bars.  It's fucked up to the max, but many people assume everyone in jail is a violent insane being and deserved everything they get.  That the system is fair, etc.  

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 7:46 AM, Excellen Browning said:

Are you sure utilities are fine in California? Because last time I checked, PG&E filed for bankruptcy after causing the biggest wildfire in the history of the state.

They are too big to fail, and the government is going to bail them out if that happens. They are charging reasonable rates, at least for my household size and usage, and I have not heard PG&E is gouging out customers for profit. They are a regional monopoly, but there a strong regulations in place to keep them in check.

There has been talk of some cities trying to reassert control over their utilities due to the way PG&E handled the wild fire risk recently by completely blacking out those cities (I think they rather risk pissing off customers than start another fire, might not be the best decision, but it is reasonable in my opinion). I think that is fine, and I do not think it will impact the people that much if some local governments re control their utilities.

Edited by XRay
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10 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Are we talking about the fucked up prison system?  Torture camps more like it.  Not to mention the systematic racism (coke vs crack, biases), as well as how strongly the system goes against the poor.  Oh here  you go, all your freedom is taken away you are confined to a tiny cell.  Fine.  Oh yeah and Guards can beat the shit out of you whenever, you have to fight for you life against other inmates, assault/rape whatever and of course no one is going to do shit about it so you better be good in a fight or join a prison gang or be someone's bitch or whatever.  Then once you get out, way more fucked up than you were before you were in prison, good luck getting any job.  So then what is this prisoner going to end up doing?  Probably going back to crime, maybe bigger and more violent ones.  The prison system doesn't reform the prisoner, it certainly punishes them but they come out more dangerous and angry and likely fucked up than before.  

What if you can't afford bail, you are stuck in jail.  What about plea bargains it has been used to put many innocent poor behind bars.  It's fucked up to the max, but many people assume everyone in jail is a violent insane being and deserved everything they get.  That the system is fair, etc.  

 

I will need sources for all of these claims.  Otherwise, leave the hyperbole out.  This is Serious Discussion, not Creative.

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22 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Are we talking about the fucked up prison system?  Torture camps more like it.  Not to mention the systematic racism (coke vs crack, biases), as well as how strongly the system goes against the poor.  Oh here  you go, all your freedom is taken away you are confined to a tiny cell.  Fine.  Oh yeah and Guards can beat the shit out of you whenever, you have to fight for you life against other inmates, assault/rape whatever and of course no one is going to do shit about it so you better be good in a fight or join a prison gang or be someone's bitch or whatever.  Then once you get out, way more fucked up than you were before you were in prison, good luck getting any job.  So then what is this prisoner going to end up doing?  Probably going back to crime, maybe bigger and more violent ones.  The prison system doesn't reform the prisoner, it certainly punishes them but they come out more dangerous and angry and likely fucked up than before.  

What if you can't afford bail, you are stuck in jail.  What about plea bargains it has been used to put many innocent poor behind bars.  It's fucked up to the max, but many people assume everyone in jail is a violent insane being and deserved everything they get.  That the system is fair, etc.  

 

11 hours ago, eclipse said:

I will need sources for all of these claims.  Otherwise, leave the hyperbole out.  This is Serious Discussion, not Creative.

Yeah I'll vouch for @Lewynon this one.

One of the biggest lawsuits my firm was ever involved in was a case where we took on an entire County Prison System. (it was a whisteblower retaliation case where we represented cops and security guards that had their careers destroyed, for objecting to + exposing what was going on in these prisons)

The most egregious thing that came out in the depositions for that lawsuit was testimony as to the pattern-and-practice of what the guards would to if they wanted to do a mob-style beatdown of a pirsoner, and wanted to make sure it wasn't caught on camera.

There's one time and only one time in a prison when you're allowed to turn-off surveillance: when you're doing a strip search.

And you're allowed to do a strip search anytime you suspect a prisoner has contraband.

So what the guards would do if their was a specific inmate they were trying to get was walk into his cell. Declare while being recorded by prison surveillance that they detected the odor of burnt marijuana.

The prisoner would then be advised that they needed to be 'checked for contraband.' Taken to the strip search area.

And then with the cameras off, the guards would just beat the shit out of him.

Afterwards they'd take him back to his cell, record in the prison logs that the prisoner had 'resisted and started an altercation' during a contraband search.

And there was no surveillance videos + all the guards would back each other up and stick to that story, if questioned about it.

And thats not state or federal prison--thats county jail.  (i.e. most people there are petty crooks and street-level offenders)

Thats the kind of stuff that goes on in these places
_______

He's also absolutely right when he says paying bail  is just a way to make sure that poor people sit in prison forever, while the rich can buy their way out.

The State of New Jersey of 2017 actually just passed a new law completely abolishing the bail system, in recognition of that fact that bail is just a way to make sure poor people sit in prison forever while the rich can pay their way out.

Under The New Jersey Bail Reform Act, length and manner of pre-trial detention must now be based SOLELY on the extent to which imprisoning the defendant is necessary to protect the community from further crime and on the defendant's risk of fleeing the state + failing to appear for trial. The State is no longer allowed to set bail, and no consideration of the defendant's ability to pay bail may be given when determining whether the defendant is to be jailed or released.

Every single state should have that law. There is literally no reason for bail to exist, except to give rich people who can afford to pay bail a way out of jail that poor people don't have. 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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To add to that, it may seem like the statements "Torture camps more like it" and "Then once you get out, way more fucked up than you were before you were in prison, good luck getting any job" might be hyperbole or exaggerating reality but they're kind of not...

A quick example is Kalief Browder: Couldn't afford bail, sat in prison AND Solitary Confinement despite never having his trail and due to SC, the kid came out so messed up that made several attempts at suicide and eventually succeeded. What did he do? He was accused of stealing a backpack.

But yeah, even for those that manage to survive it and get out, they're likely to comeback in because in some cases part of their parole requires that they get a job and that checkbox for the question "Have you ever been convicted of a crime" is often doom for people that have served their time. Part of why this "Ban the Box" campaign exists.

Shit like this is also why I've said that corrupt politicians should get the death penalty, because they'll just buy their way out with the money they've made from the bribes lobbying.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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5 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

(it was a whisteblower retaliation case where we represented cops and security guards that had their careers destroyed, for objecting to + exposing what was going on in these prisons)

Wow. That is pretty crazy. Those cops and guards are true heroes. We need more people like them. I hope those jails and prisons are the really rare exceptions and not the norm. It is one thing to give prisoners a really shitty environment and neglect funding them, but it is a whole other thing to beat a person who is not even in prison and could potentially be innocent.

— 

I feel like I am listening to random bullshit numbers that the White House administration is pulling right out their ass on the spot. Here is the live link to PBS's YouTube video right now. Here is PBS's channel if you want to look for the video later.

Oh, and fuck you Trump, your cars are not better. And our California economy is doing well because we not doing dumb shit that the Republican states are doing. And why the fuck are we talking about new light bulbs costing more, what kind of light bulb are you talking about? Flushing toilets ten to fifteen times, who does that? Old toilets are not that bad.

Edited by XRay
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Newjack by Ted Conover is a really good insight into the US prison system. Investigative journalist tries to get interviews, is stonewalled, tries to get a look in, is shown a Very Obviously Prettied-Up version of reality, decides "fuck it" and just signs up to become a prison guard himself for a year. Worth reading.

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