General US Politics

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Senate GOP looking to avoid having witnesses in the impeachment trial. And of course there's the recent report debunking all the shitty allegations against the FBI and actually uncovering that there WAS bias... against Clinton.

Even with all that, Trump will be acquitted by the Senate and reducing the damage by preventing more witnesses from chipping in might help them...

Edited December 11, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Lewyn]

Thanks to @Shoblongoo and @Dr. Tarrasque for showing the evidence behind some of my claims.

On 12/7/2019 at 12:17 PM, eclipse said:

@Shoblongoo

If you want to research sources for @Lewyn's claims, you're free to do so too.  I think the two cases would be easy enough to find, but the rest of the allegations?

Well they already showed some of them, but I'm shocked you find the other ones so unbelievable most of this is common knowledge.  However let me give some sources.

So guard abuse and bail system against the poor is already explained.

Prison rape

Inmate violence, death

Sentencing disparity blacks whites

Crack vs cocaine

[Etrurian emperor]

On 12/11/2019 at 11:27 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Senate GOP looking to avoid having witnesses in the impeachment trial. And of course there's the recent report debunking all the shitty allegations against the FBI and actually uncovering that there WAS bias... against Clinton.

Well yeah. We already knew that by the time Comey found it funny to play kingmaker and intervene on Trump's behalf in the election. On a very important moment they propped up some nothing burger and loudly announced Clinton was under investigation again.

[Lewyn]

Well not only that, Mitch and GOP is going to work closely with Trump on his defense.  I mean seriously WTF, they are supposed to be an impartial jury.  Oh and the Orange shitstain doesn't have to release his tax returns, the Supreme Court ruled today it will review the 3 cases, so now we wait for June and hope the conservative majority hasn't made the courts completely under his control.  

The Orange piece of garbage is afraid to release his Tax returns, something every president has done in the last 40 years.  To all the claims he has something to hide he could simply show them and shut everyone up, but of course there probably is tons to hide enough it would damn him even among his brainwashed base likely.

Then he says I think I'm going to testify during impeachment inquiry, yeah sure.  Instead he blocks the strongest sources for the Ukraine call from testifying?  Why?  Wouldn't these sources be best to defend Trump to show he didn't do anything wrong?  Oh no, cause it would likely make the case even stronger.  

35 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Well yeah. We already knew that by the time Comey found it funny to play kingmaker and intervene on Trump's behalf in the election. On a very important moment they propped up some nothing burger and loudly announced Clinton was under investigation again.

Ah yeah wasn't that shortly after the video released about Trump saying "He grabs girl by the pussy, and he just kisses them, there is nothing they can do?" Well this was quickly forgotten thanks to Comey.  

Uh, wish I was independently wealthy I'd try to get citizenship or at least legal residence in Switzerland.  Top education, top healthcare, neutral on wars, very low crime rate, very intelligent populace.  Maybe Canada is easier and ranked #1 in quality of life, I'll have to look into that. 

[eclipse]

21 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Thanks to @Shoblongoo and @Dr. Tarrasque for showing the evidence behind some of my claims.

Well they already showed some of them, but I'm shocked you find the other ones so unbelievable most of this is common knowledge.  However let me give some sources.

So guard abuse and bail system against the poor is already explained.

Prison rape

Inmate violence, death

Sentencing disparity blacks whites

Crack vs cocaine

When someone says "source your shit", you source your shit, without complaints.  Here's what you said:

On 12/5/2019 at 9:20 AM, Lewyn said:

Are we talking about the fucked up prison system?  Torture camps more like it.  Not to mention the systematic racism (coke vs crack, biases), as well as how strongly the system goes against the poor.  Oh here  you go, all your freedom is taken away you are confined to a tiny cell.  Fine.  Oh yeah and Guards can beat the shit out of you whenever, you have to fight for you life against other inmates, assault/rape whatever and of course no one is going to do shit about it so you better be good in a fight or join a prison gang or be someone's bitch or whatever.  Then once you get out, way more fucked up than you were before you were in prison, good luck getting any job.  So then what is this prisoner going to end up doing?  Probably going back to crime, maybe bigger and more violent ones.  The prison system doesn't reform the prisoner, it certainly punishes them but they come out more dangerous and angry and likely fucked up than before.  

What if you can't afford bail, you are stuck in jail.  What about plea bargains it has been used to put many innocent poor behind bars.  It's fucked up to the max, but many people assume everyone in jail is a violent insane being and deserved everything they get.  That the system is fair, etc.  

 

There's a reason why I don't want hyperbole in Serious Discussion, and I'm going to use one of your links for this.

Let's say that the numbers in The Guardian are accurate.  According to that, 69,800 inmates were victims of some form of sexual assault (not necessarily rape).  According to these guys, there were 1,610,446 inmates at the end of 2008.  Not counting the fact that having over a million prisoners is kinda fucked, here's two things I can argue:

1. The odds of being sexually assaulted in prison is 4.3%.
2. Assuming the US has a population of 300 million, approximately 0.5% of them are prisoners.

Meanwhile, the odds of running into a toddler who hasn't been vaccinated against MMR is roughly double that of being sexually assaulted in prison.  There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.  Leave spin to the mainstream media.

[Lewyn]

59 minutes ago, eclipse said:

When someone says "source your shit", you source your shit, without complaints.  Here's what you said:

There's a reason why I don't want hyperbole in Serious Discussion, and I'm going to use one of your links for this.

Let's say that the numbers in The Guardian are accurate.  According to that, 69,800 inmates were victims of some form of sexual assault (not necessarily rape).  According to these guys, there were 1,610,446 inmates at the end of 2008.  Not counting the fact that having over a million prisoners is kinda fucked, here's two things I can argue:

1. The odds of being sexually assaulted in prison is 4.3%.
2. Assuming the US has a population of 300 million, approximately 0.5% of them are prisoners.

Meanwhile, the odds of running into a toddler who hasn't been vaccinated against MMR is roughly double that of being sexually assaulted in prison.  There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.  Leave spin to the mainstream media.

69,800 raped by force, 36,100 nonconsensual (coercion, blackmail, etc also they define this as rape as well). 65,700 had sex with staff willingly, which is abuse of power by staff.  Like if a boss had sex with employees, or teacher with students.

Then according to the Justice department, it was 216,000 victims of sex abuse in penitentiaries in 2008.  Either way a much larger percentage than what you suggest.  

When someone says "Sources"  sure I will politely try to give those out, when someone has attitude they should expect attitude in kind.  That is how the world works.  

[eclipse]

6 hours ago, Lewyn said:

When someone says "Sources"  sure I will politely try to give those out, when someone has attitude they should expect attitude in kind.  That is how the world works.  

This is ass-backwards.

First, it was your comments about the prison system that sparked it.  Take responsibility for that.  If anyone has an attitude problem, it's you, which leads to. . .

Second, for FUCK'S sake, don't talk back to others, whether it be in this topic, this forum, or elsewhere.  And for the love of everything, don't even think about pulling this on another mod (again, not necessarily this forum).  I'd be well within my bounds to warn you for your attitude, but this post will suffice.  Failure to take this advice to heart and follow it will result in a nice, stiff warn, and maybe a suspension - I'm too lazy to check how many warning points you're at now.  Respect is earned, and when you decided to spin the prison system's problems harder than Fox News spins the impeachment queries (in a subforum for discussion, no less), you lost it.

[Tediz64]

6 hours ago, Lewyn said:

69,800 raped by force, 36,100 nonconsensual (coercion, blackmail, etc also they define this as rape as well). 65,700 had sex with staff willingly, which is abuse of power by staff. 

69,800 + 36,100 + 65,700 = 171,600. Let's stop and ponder that possibly not all of these allegations included penetration. Being forced to give another person a hand job would allow a lawyer to claim sexual assault since we are using legal jargon. So for all these claims of sexual assault it could have been a hand/blow job and they'd throw that in the statistic of rape since it counts as a form under that ambiguous claim. 

171,600 out of Houston's estimated population sitting at 3,000,000 means that would be roughly 17.4%. Objectively speaking that is a small percentage and to think if we were to extrapolate that to the country's population of over 300,000,000 (300 million) that turn into .0006% rounded. 

Also based off eclipse's source stating 1,610,446 were prisoners during the year 2008, that's only 1/3 of the 4th largest city in our country as a number of people incarcerated. If we were to compare that to the country's population that'd be 0.005%. in other words, less than 1% of the entire country's population. Objectively speaking, having less than 1% of your country's population go to jail/prison should be seen as a good thing. 

This is all addressing the claims of the rampant danger of being sexually assaulted. To move on to your other claims such as of the guards beating people. Shob only told us one story and I clicked on some of those links so we don't have viable data or %s to back up how often this is. For all we know it could happen once a month in one state. Maybe it happens to one prisoner out of every 100,000. 

It's plain to see you dislike the prison system but that doesn't mean it is so broken we need to take drastic measures asap. One of those links you put mentioned Alabama's understaffed problems but that in itself plagues every state. Guards are worked 16 hour shifts according to that source so imagine the stress they accumulate. They are people too and after having to deal with someone for 16 hours day after day, it isn't unthinkable they'd vent or do something stupid that is on the unethical side. 

One phenomenon that afflicts people in the prison/police/medical field quite heavily is compassion fatigue. Over time people lose their ability to be empathetic or sympathetic especially when being exposed to harsh conditions for prolonged periods. Ive seen some nurses treat patients pretty shitty just so they could get back on their phones and ignore their care. I know we aren't talking about nurses but I want to emphasize compassion fatigue. It's real and it has super adverse effects on individuals who are put positions were they need to look after others. I won't say bad behavior is excusable but we have many issues we have to tackle effectively after researching it instead of pointing fingers at a group of people. 

The prison system needs revamping. It has a purpose. But it isn't some torture camp.

[Shoblongoo]

Men underreport being sexually assaulted to begin with, and “snitches get stitches” culture in prison is real. Eye those stats with a mind that they only cover incidents reported, and take any claim that they paint a complete and accurate picture of prison conditions with an ocean’s worth of salt

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Objectively speaking, having less than 1% of your country's population go to jail/prison should be seen as a good thing.

This is such a bizarre statement. America's incarceration rate is the highest in the world. Even if your logic held any water at all, having the highest incarceration rate in the world would only be good if it did anything to deter crime more than other countries that don't have as high of incarceration rates... which, it doesn't. America puts this many people in jail and we still have one of the higher crime rates in the western world. Additionally, we also have one of the highest recidivism rates, with over 3/4 of convicted criminals getting convicted again within 5 years of being released from prison. Mostly for two reasons:

1. The US has set up a system that harshly punishes felons after they've served their time, and ends up making ex-cons feel like their only option is to go back into crime.
2. Our prisons are dogshit at "reforming" people and are actually giving our prisoners PTSD. I shouldn't have to explain why that'd lead to recidivism.

Our prison system is doing a horrendous job at keeping us safe. It's doing an amazing job at making rich people more money, though. It's an amazing microcosm of how fucked up our country is as a whole, really.

To top this all off, your numbers are bad. If you want to extrapolate some numbers, there are about 2.3 million people in jail(Around 700k of the population) or prisons(The 1.6 mil number) in the US currently. There are about 320 million people in the US total, with 80 million of them being under 18 and illegible for jail/prison outside of extreme circumstances.

320-80=240.

2.3/240=0.95%

Nearly 1% of our country that's able to go to jail or prison, is in jail or prison.

Even if you want to toss in the kids for some reason, 2.3/320=0.72%, or 720 per 100,000 people, which is the number sources use when describing the US' incarceration rates. Which, I'll remind you, is highest in the world.

PS: Remember to multiply your percentages by 100 when you try to do math. If 1.6 million was 0.005% of our population, our population would have to be 32 billion. You meant to say 0.5%, which is still not a great number. That's 1 out of every 200 people.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Slumber

[Tediz64]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

This is such a bizarre statement. America's incarceration rate is the highest in the world. Even if your logic held any water at all, having the highest incarceration rate in the world would only be good if it did anything to deter crime more than other countries that don't have as high of incarceration rates... which, it doesn't. America puts this many people in jail and we still have one of the higher crime rates in the western world. 

Logic? I have no idea how this conversation started going in this direction. This isn't a competition with other countries. So don't make it one. We aren't trying to be better or worse than other parts of the world. All we were discussing was the flamming rhetoric using by another poster. They are prisons, not torture camps. They aren't that bad as some make them out to be. 

 

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Additionally, we also have one of the highest recidivism rates, with over 3/4 of convicted criminals getting convicted again within 5 years of being released from prison. Mostly for two reasons:

1. The US has set up a system that harshly punishes felons after they've served their time, and ends up making ex-cons feel like their only option is to go back into crime.
2. Our prisons are dogshit at "reforming" people and are actually giving our prisoners PTSD. I shouldn't have to explain why that'd lead to recidivism.

This wasn't part of the original list of things being exaggerated (regarding repeat offenders). So I don't know how this came up. If you wanted to add it to list stating why the prison system is bad and needs to be revamped then nobody is going to argue against it. But again, we shouldn't use inflammatory speech comparing our prison system to torture camps. If you think what happens here is bad, then I suggest you visit prisons in other countries. Then maybe you'll come back and say getting thru our system is a walk in the park with butterflies and rainbows. Go commit a crime in another country. I'd like to see you still say our stuff is bad. I've heard horror stories or what goes on in other countries. We are pretty mild in how we treat our prisoners. But again this isn't a competition. There just isn't a need to compare our stuff to torture camps. 

 

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Our prison system is doing a horrendous job at keeping us safe. It's doing an amazing job at making rich people more money, though. It's an amazing microcosm of how fucked up our country is as a whole, really.

I said I'm in favor of revamping. 3rd time now by the way. I don't condone how it is but it is harmful to go around comparing it to torture camps. It isn't one so it shouldn't be called one. 

 

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

To top this all off, your numbers are bad. If you want to extrapolate some numbers, there are about 2.3 million people in jail(Around 700k of the population) or prisons(The 1.6 mil number) in the US currently. There are about 320 million people in the US total, with 80 million of them being under 18 and illegible for jail/prison outside of extreme circumstances.

320-80=240.

2.3/240=0.95%

Nearly 1% of our country that's able to go to jail or prison, is in jail or prison.

Even if you want to toss in the kids for some reason, 2.3/320=0.72%, or 720 per 100,000 people, which is the number sources use when describing the US' incarceration rates. Which, I'll remind you, is highest in the world.

My numbers? They aren't mine. They were sources from Lew and eclipse. 

1% is still 1% so nothing changes with my previous statement. That number objectively speaking is small. You didn't provide sources about what the % of incarcerations of total population is in other countries but said we have the highest. So other countries also have less than 1% of their able population in prison/jail? Or is it higher? If it is higher, doesn't that mean looking at the math, our society is still better collectively since our citizens can follow the laws? But then speaking objectively are the laws in other countries up to a standard we'd consider fair or ethical? 

This isn't a competition. Don't make it one. I'd like to point out again, how we treat our prisoners is in no way comparable to torture camps. Maybe another country could qualify for that title with what they do, but not ours. 

Besides earlier those numbers had some data mixed in that skewers the perception. How is what one prisoner does to another reflective of our countries prison system's morale compass? Because we couldn't prevent such horrendous acts our system is broken? That happens in other parts of the world so why is our system getting singled out and being called a torture camp? It needs to be revamped (4th time I said I'm in support of improving conditions) yes but it isn't objectively that bad. You think the prison systems in other countries are flawless? You think they perfected reforming and rehabilitating their people who break the law? You think some people don't make money in other countries off their prisons too? Why are you singling us out and in favor of calling ours a torture camp? 

Understand the points being made and make this conversation productive. We weren't competing with others. It just was stated that it is unacceptable to call our system torture camps since that type of speech is not beneificial and only scares people plus points fingers at group of people. That doesn't help or improve anything if all you wanna do is play the blame game. Let the media and politicians talk like that.

 

[Lewyn]

10 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

 

 

This wasn't part of the original list of things being exaggerated (regarding repeat offenders). So I don't know how this came up. If you wanted to add it to list stating why the prison system is bad and needs to be revamped then nobody is going to argue against it. But again, we shouldn't use inflammatory speech comparing our prison system to torture camps. If you think what happens here is bad, then I suggest you visit prisons in other countries. Then maybe you'll come back and say getting thru our system is a walk in the park with butterflies and rainbows. Go commit a crime in another country. I'd like to see you still say our stuff is bad. I've heard horror stories or what goes on in other countries. We are pretty mild in how we treat our prisoners. But again this isn't a competition. There just isn't a need to compare our stuff to torture camps. 

 

 

I mentioned difficulty finding a job, and going back to crime once released in my original post.  I said a lot of things besides torture camps.  The problems with plea bargaining, the bail system against the poor, and racism in the system.  Oh yeah and the 13th ammendment doesn't apply to convicts, so legalized slavery.  

 

 

[Slumber]

11 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

This wasn't part of the original list of things being exaggerated (regarding repeat offenders). So I don't know how this came up. If you wanted to add it to list stating why the prison system is bad and needs to be revamped then nobody is going to argue against it. But again, we shouldn't use inflammatory speech comparing our prison system to torture camps. If you think what happens here is bad, then I suggest you visit prisons in other countries. Then maybe you'll come back and say getting thru our system is a walk in the park with butterflies and rainbows. Go commit a crime in another country. I'd like to see you still say our stuff is bad. I've heard horror stories or what goes on in other countries. We are pretty mild in how we treat our prisoners. But again this isn't a competition. There just isn't a need to compare our stuff to torture camps. 

You're right in that there are worse prisons in the world, but compared to a lot of our peers? As in a lot of western Europe, Oceania and Canada? Our prison system is a brutal one that is minimally concerned with reformation and rehabilitation. And we dish out harsher sentences. If my options were to go to prison in America vs. like, Denmark, you can bet your ass I'll pick Denmark's prison.

11 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

My numbers? They aren't mine. They were sources from Lew and eclipse. 

1% is still 1% so nothing changes with my previous statement. That number objectively speaking is small. You didn't provide sources about what the % of incarcerations of total population is in other countries but said we have the highest. So other countries also have less than 1% of their able population in prison/jail? Or is it higher? If it is higher, doesn't that mean looking at the math, our society is still better collectively since our citizens can follow the laws? But then speaking objectively are the laws in other countries up to a standard we'd consider fair or ethical?

Your calculation was wrong, and it didn't include people in jails, which you specified. Additionally, while 0.72% of our population is incarcerated, that includes a large percentage of the population that isn't even capable of being sent to jail/prison.

1% as a number is objectively nothing. In a vacuum, 1% is just a number. 1% only becomes something when it's relative to something else. 1% on a test score is abysmal. 1% mercury in drinking water is lethal. 

I didn't include a citation for my statement that America's the highest because it's common knowledge when it comes to this subject. It'd be like citing that too much sugar in your diet can lead to type 2 diabetes. The only reason to doubt the claim is that you're either ignorant or skeptical, and if you're actively participating in this conversation, I'd have to assume skepticism.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you're ignorant on the subject, and give you literally the first 3 links from different sources when you Google "highest incarceration rates":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-05-13/10-countries-with-the-highest-incarceration-rates

https://eji.org/news/united-states-still-has-highest-incarceration-rate-world/

Finding this information is not hard.

And how do you connect "America has the highest incarceration rate" to mean that other countries are possibly putting more people in prison? Other countries are putting less people in prison. It's partially why I stressed that America still manages to have higher crime rates despite this.

11 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

This isn't a competition. Don't make it one. I'd like to point out again, how we treat our prisoners is in no way comparable to torture camps. Maybe another country could qualify for that title with what they do, but not ours. 

I only quoted this chunk since it's the most relevant, but it relates to the rest of your post.

It's absolutely a competition. Much like the number "1%", America does not exist in a vacuum. You cannot say that 1% of the population being in prison is a good thing when that's a relative argument. The only way 1% of the population in the prison would be good was if America was the safest country in the world, with the lowest incarceration rates. Or at least comparable to other countries. But since neither of those are true, and America is actually on the opposite end of the spectrum being not all that safe and having the highest incarceration rates... yeah. I'm going to have to point out that saying it's "good" is complete horseshit by showing you that the rest of the world doesn't work that way. How America's criminal justice system is judged will depend on how it's performing compared to America's peers.

[Tryhard]

The simplest way to show this statistic is to say that the US has 5% of the worlds population, but 25% of the worlds prisoners. Not good proportions.

[Tediz64]

7 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I mentioned difficulty finding a job, and going back to crime once released in my original post.  I said a lot of things besides torture camps.  The problems with plea bargaining, the bail system against the poor, and racism in the system.  Oh yeah and the 13th ammendment doesn't apply to convicts, so legalized slavery.  

Okay. Eclipse's and mine main arguing point was not to use inflammatory speech. I myself said that I agree it needs to be revamped and improved. The problems you point out are valid and I'm not refuting them but I do make the point that you shouldn't start calling our system a torture camp. It isn't that bad.

 

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

You're right in that there are worse prisons in the world, but compared to a lot of our peers? As in a lot of western Europe, Oceania and Canada? Our prison system is a brutal one that is minimally concerned with reformation and rehabilitation. And we dish out harsher sentences. If my options were to go to prison in America vs. like, Denmark, you can bet your ass I'll pick Denmark's prison.

If this were an academic debate (which it is I'm hoping) this point gets refuted on the grounds that you don't get to cherry pick which countries to compare us too. There exist countries with more brutal conditions and harsh sentencing than ours. My point that ours shouldn't be labeled either a torture camps and/or is the worst one in the world remains. 

 

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

Your calculation was wrong, and it didn't include people in jails, which you specified. Additionally, while 0.72% of our population is incarcerated, that includes a large percentage of the population that isn't even capable of being sent to jail/prison.

1% as a number is objectively nothing. In a vacuum, 1% is just a number. 1% only becomes something when it's relative to something else. 1% on a test score is abysmal. 1% mercury in drinking water is lethal. 

I didn't include a citation for my statement that America's the highest because it's common knowledge when it comes to this subject. It'd be like citing that too much sugar in your diet can lead to type 2 diabetes. The only reason to doubt the claim is that you're either ignorant or skeptical, and if you're actively participating in this conversation, I'd have to assume skepticism.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you're ignorant on the subject, and give you literally the first 3 links from different sources when you Google "highest incarceration rates":

Finding this information is not hard.

And how do you connect "America has the highest incarceration rate" to mean that other countries are possibly putting more people in prison? Other countries are putting less people in prison. It's partially why I stressed that America still manages to have higher crime rates despite this

Let's see how to respond to this part. I hope we are still on the same page that I said I do think our system needs to be improved but it shouldn't be called to a torture camp. That's an accusation going too far.

The way I read the post and responded was based off the premises that the phrase "highest incarceration rate" is ambiguous if the purpose and intents it to be comparing which country is doing better or worse. Which is why I asked what other countries were doing. I didn't imply others were putting more in or less. I asked what if the numbers were higher or lower based off a % of the population. Since we established that our country is putting about 1% of it's able population in jail/prison what i was asking for was a comparison to other countries. After all you said that 1% only means or becomes something when it becomes relative to something else. So an answer I was looking for to be better able to grasp if we were doing better or worse would be like for example, China only puts 0.65% away in jail/prison out of their able population that can be sentenced. Then the statement would become better to understand and we could objectively say we are doing worse. But say for example that out of the total able population that can be locked up, more than 1.1% in India is actually sitting in a cell. Then that we mean that our country doesn't have the "highest incarceration rates".

I used those countries and numbers as examples to better clear up the point that was being made. Those aren't actual real statistics. 

5 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's absolutely a competition. Much like the number "1%", America does not exist in a vacuum. You cannot say that 1% of the population being in prison is a good thing when that's a relative argument. The only way 1% of the population in the prison would be good was if America was the safest country in the world, with the lowest incarceration rates. Or at least comparable to other countries. But since neither of those are true, and America is actually on the opposite end of the spectrum being not all that safe and having the highest incarceration rates... yeah. I'm going to have to point out that saying it's "good" is complete horseshit by showing you that the rest of the world doesn't work that way. How America's criminal justice system is judged will depend on how it's performing compared to America's peers.

The part where I disagree here lies in the fact that comparing our countries prison system starts to bleed into philosophy if you really want to look at it and in addition to philosophy, that'd mean we are establishing universal laws or standards that everyone should be following BUT that isn't the case. Our country is different as is our culture and as well as our standards that we hold ourselves too.

For example, in our country we have our legal age limit set to 18. A quick Google search shows that other countries have lower limits (more than half the world) and some countries don't even have a limit at all. So if we have people sitting in jail/prison for sex with a minor you could begin to subtract that number or adjust based off what the standard would in the other targeted country we are comparing ourselves too. Our prison population would start to sink.

Another example is that in our country it would be completely illegal to perform a female circumcision surgery but in more than half of Africa culturally, they perform that to discourage women from premarital sex. This info i saw in a news article that happened to be condemning the practice so I don't know if it is updated since it was a few years ago. 

The point I'm trying to make with the two above paragraphs is that our laws reflect our views, our standards, and so much more. For all we know we could have more laws or less laws than one other country. So if someone breaks a law here and as a result ends up incarcerated, of course our numbers will reflect that. Conversely, in other countries they might not have strict enough laws, or as many laws, or practices that they engage in that we would call illegal over here. 

All in all, this isn't a competition. Please don't make it one. Furthermore, I previously stated our system needs to be improved and revamped but it shouldn't be called a torture camp. 

If you want to continue debating this, than know it has become a philosophical conversation. I'm not in disagreement with the fact our system is broken. But it isn't the worse and it isn't a literal actual torture camp. 

[Excellen Browning]

So instead of cherry picking other countries you cherry pick Africa. And then completely ignore that Africa is, in fact, not a single polity, is much more culturally and politically diverse than the US, African countries have very little in common with each other in general, manage to completely misrepresent female genital mutilation, and imply that this happens all across Africa, and that Africans are all the same to you.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Excellen Browning

[Parrhesia]

This tangent is going to go on forever. It is now over.

[Tediz64]

3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

So instead of cherry picking other countries you cherry pick Africa. And then completely ignore that Africa is, in fact, not a single polity, is much more culturally and politically diverse than the US, African countries have very little in common with each other in general, manage to completely misrepresent female genital mutilation, and imply that this happens all across Africa, and that Africans are all the same to you.

At this point, i don't think i should be responding to you of all people since it is clear you like to make no point what so ever and furthermore when you begin to lose the debate you switch to coming up with random accusations. But since this is a serious discussion thread and i want to give you the benefit of doubt (like it was extended to me previously) plus think that maybe you've grown and mature i'll go ahead and respond. Maybe now you are ready to debate for real.

Africa being a continent with multiple countries plus being more diverse culturally and politically doesn't change that fact that we are discussing laws in regards to how it would affect prison population. The paragraph below where i made that point draws and show the emphasis is on the fact what can be done or is being done some where else, can't be done in our country or shouldn't be. As a result, because our country has different beliefs and practices in cultures, our laws of course would reflect what we find not acceptable and would merit being seen as criminal activity. Thus that would impact our prison population.

Moving on to my next point. Regardless if each country on that continent has little in common, as you've stated, the fact that more than half the map reflects that those countries participate in that cultural practice says otherwise in addition doesn't change the fact  the numbers still exist. I didn't "imply" anything at all. I specifically said more than half of Africa perform that surgery. So you are incorrect in accusing me of saying that i imply it happens ALL across of Africa. 

Next point, is more of a question and not me making a counter-point. What do you mean i misrepresent female genital mutilation?

Also if you want to know why i picked to use that as an example, it was cause i just saw a news article talking about how a woman escaped from her country to come to America and that that practice happens over there. So it was pure coincidence. 

Also how did you infer or deduce that "all Africans are the same"? We are talking about laws, cultures, ethics, and what impacts prison populations. 

 

Edit: Okay. I won't continue discussing the prison population. I was mid-typing when your post showed up.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Tediz64
Update after refreshing page.

[Shoblongoo]

Unless you seriously want to dispute the validity of the statement having a higher % of your population incarcerated is bad.

America's criminal law and prison system is objectively worse than any other comparably developed nation.  (i.e. not comparing to third world countries because the disparity in development levels makes for invalid comparisons; looking strictly at how the American system measures up to similarly situated industrialized social democracies)   

And can be improved by changing it to be more like the systems used in other countries.
__________

...this means treating addiction and mental illness as a public health problem rather than as a criminal law problem

...this means actually having a functioning system of public healthcare to treat the addicted and the mentally ill, instead of warehousing them in prisons.

...this means treating rehabilitative justice and the need to transition persons who have done their time back to being productive members of society as a compelling interest of criminal law; not merely punishment  and deterrence.

...this means policing the prisons themselves for the kind of gang activity and wanton violence that cause persons who enter prison as low-level offenders to become 'institutionalized' by their time on the inside, and leave prison as hardened criminals.

...this means providing programs on the inside for inmates to work, study, learn job skills and pursue degrees.

...this means limiting the class of conduct that the law deems worthy of a prison sentence to conduct that legitimately makes a person a danger to public health and safety, rather than making incarceration the default punishment  for minor violations of law. 

...this means--when appropriate--using options like court-ordered rehab and/or therapy, community service, probation, diversionary programs, house arrest + electronic monitoring, and work release as alternatives to jail time

...and this means rethinking the way we prioritize the policing and prosecution of street crime vs. the way we prioritize the policing and prosecution of white collar-crime, corporate fraud, and political corruption; fairly applying the criminal law to people at the top rather than merely preying upon people at the bottom. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[eclipse]

On 12/15/2019 at 2:29 PM, Tryhard said:

The simplest way to show this statistic is to say that the US has 5% of the worlds population, but 25% of the worlds prisoners. Not good proportions.

The only reason why I don't like this statistic is because it assumes that every other country in the world is honest about its prison population.  America has a lot of problems, but I don't think we're the worst government right now.  And hopefully, we will never claim that title.

I think there's way too many people in prison for things they shouldn't be in prison, though.  I'd rather my tax dollars go to things like vocational rehab and therapy, but alas.

[Tryhard]

12 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The only reason why I don't like this statistic is because it assumes that every other country in the world is honest about its prison population.  America has a lot of problems, but I don't think we're the worst government right now.  And hopefully, we will never claim that title.

I think there's way too many people in prison for things they shouldn't be in prison, though.  I'd rather my tax dollars go to things like vocational rehab and therapy, but alas.

I don't fault the skepticism, because there is some statistics that can be misleading. For example, the United Kingdom is sometimes touted as far more violent then the United States in violent assault - what they fail to note is that the United Kingdom official figures defines "assault" so leniently it can apply to an incident where schoolkids push each other, where the US does not and is much stricter.

But personally, I think if there was any correlation, it would be the following:

That is to say - I don't think Americans are really plagued with so many criminals, but draconian policies like the sentencing reform act leads to more arrests and ruined lives than is necessary.

(Without going into the cynical nature of private prisons and their continued existence)

Edited December 17, 2019 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I don't fault the skepticism, because there is some statistics that can be misleading. For example, the United Kingdom is sometimes touted as far more violent then the United States in violent assault - what they fail to note is that the United Kingdom official figures defines "assault" so leniently it can apply to an incident where schoolkids push each other, where the US does not and is much stricter.

But personally, I think if there was any correlation, it would be the following:

That is to say - I don't think Americans are really plagued with so many criminals, but draconian policies like the war on drugs leads to more arrests and ruined lives than is necessary.

(Without going into the cynical nature of private prisons and their continued existence)

What I'd like to see is this kind of graph on top of an overlay of America's population or something like that.  There's all sorts of misleading statements that can be made about numbers in general.

(and yes, prisons for profit is fucked beyond belief)

[Excellen Browning]

I just grabbed a US population graph for you here you go, sources are in the link as well.

The main takeaway is that US population growth went into overdrive, and saw a fairly consistent growth between ~1949 and 2008. In comparison, incarcerations started ticking up after 1970 (when most of the baby boom generation started hitting adulthood) and outright exploded after 1984.

[Shoblongoo]

 

5 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

 In comparison, incarcerations started ticking up after 1970 

i.e. right after the civil rights legislation of the 1960s made it illegal to disenfranchise brown people by outright denying them employment, housing, government services, and access to places of public accommodations on the basis of skin color

The 'War on Drugs' + the surge of mass incarcerations int he 1970s was the response of the white power structure.

It was pretense for trying to recapture some semblance of the power monopoly and limit the extent to which non-whites now newly vested with civil rights in this country could reap the intended benefits from them, by hitting as many of them as possible with a legal status that could thereafter deprived them of the full legal rights and protections of free people (i.e. "convicted felons") 
________

For Comparison:

 

 

[Excellen Browning]

Trump gonna get impeached. There will be witnesses, he won't get convicted. Which is a shame, but with the republicans being what they are, what can you do.