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13 hours ago, XRay said:

All these benefits and more require an active United States presence on the world stage taking the lead. As bad as Trump may be, he is at least removeable and temporary. Do you really want a Chinese or Russian dictator to have even more influence in meddling in our lives? Our Hollywood is already under heavy assault and infiltration by Chinese propaganda. Russia has meddled with our electoral process and elected a complete dipshit like Trump and he is causing all sorts of problems; if you are an illegal immigrant or know someone close who is and are not in a sanctuary city, good luck living a life without the constant fear of having your friends and family being torn apart.

I know with being 'the best' we can't fully ignore international issues but damn I wish we could back off just a little.

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

It's a movement protesting discrimination, yet has discrimination within it.  I can't support that kind of hypocrisy.  I'll support those that don't show it, but if the movement is known for those problems, then the movement needs to sort its issues before demanding equality.

But I feel like you can find hypocrisy and discrimination in any social movement if you look hard enough. And even with those issues, equality should be a given right anyway, so I don't think it fair that a movement should have the impossible task of quieting every evil voice that rides the movements coattails before demanding they be treated with human decency.

This doesn't make what trans people and queer people of color experience while in the queer community okay but dragging the whole movement because of a radical minority shouldn't be the answer either. These issues do need to be addressed (and they are, to an extent). But these issues shouldn't be stepping stones for people to conquer before they can receive basic humanity.

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

I'm so sorry.  I'd sooner betray a movement than betray myself.

This I definitely agree with.

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21 hours ago, Tryhard said:

they were never going to do it before and they are never going to do it now. the best thing that nancy pelosi and the rest of the democrats can do is sit on sending the articles of impeachment to the senate indefinitely so they can repeat that Trump is impeached and not let him have his victory lap when the republican senate inevitably acquits him.

Part of me does not want to be petty and just give the Senate the articles of impeachment.

However, part of me really wants Nancy Pelosi to make a huge announcement and say that she agrees with the Republicans and will hand in the articles of impeachment after the election to let the people decide. I am sure Republicans would enjoy eating their own crap they spewed on Obama.

1 hour ago, Quiyonce said:

I know with being 'the best' we can't fully ignore international issues but damn I wish we could back off just a little.

I think more involvement is what we need, not less.

With how much we spend on the military, using them only for war is a huge waste. We need to be out there and put our shit to good use, like send our troops to do more humanitarian work, fighting pirates, etc. We also need to use our economy and free trade to build stronger relationships with more distant allies and neutral nations to expand our alliance and shield them from Chinese and Russian influence

And it does not have to involve the hard power either. Simply engaging with allies more to tackle world issues like global warming and promoting more open borders amongst allies is huge in maintaining and building our soft power.

Like if Trump copied what he did with North Korea and also did that with Iran, just having a thaw in relations would be good.

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6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Bernie Sanders is the only full and consistent anti-war candidate running right now. And this has largely taken a backseat to healthcare so far; but now it needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Just how popular is "no more war", and what's the population distribution like?  I wouldn't be surprised if there's a section of the population that wants to go to war with Iran - and I wouldn't be surprised if that section of the population overlaps heavily with Trump's supporters.

2 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

But I feel like you can find hypocrisy and discrimination in any social movement if you look hard enough. And even with those issues, equality should be a given right anyway, so I don't think it fair that a movement should have the impossible task of quieting every evil voice that rides the movements coattails before demanding they be treated with human decency.

This doesn't make what trans people and queer people of color experience while in the queer community okay but dragging the whole movement because of a radical minority shouldn't be the answer either. These issues do need to be addressed (and they are, to an extent). But these issues shouldn't be stepping stones for people to conquer before they can receive basic humanity.

If they can't treat those within their own movement with the same basic humanity they're asking for, then I refuse to be associated with them.  Full stop.  IF you want me to even consider this differently, start calling out the bad behavior.  But this kind of logic isn't how to do it.

I'm already an outsider, so I'm not going to lose any sleep about NOT being a part of that group.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Part of me does not want to be petty and just give the Senate the articles of impeachment.

However, part of me really wants Nancy Pelosi to make a huge announcement and say that she agrees with the Republicans and will hand in the articles of impeachment after the election to let the people decide. I am sure Republicans would enjoy eating their own crap they spewed on Obama.

After the election?  Why not before?

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18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

After the election?  Why not before?

To see if we take the Senate and White House. If we took the Senate and Trump is still there, then impeach we shall continue! If we do not take the Senate and Trump is still there, we have 4 more years for voters to forget about the drama.

If Trump is not there anymore, then the impeachment from the House has accomplished its goal, so it does not matter if we send the articles of impeachment or not, but we should still send it for formality's sake.

Basically, we are just stalling and dragging our feet for our benefit, just like what Republicans did with Obama.

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22 hours ago, eclipse said:

I don't think you fully understand the mentality behind backing Trump.  As much as this pains me to say it, watch a bit of Fox News - not because you believe them/want to support them, but so that you can see what buttons they're pushing.  I managed to keep my sanity after half an hour. . .I would recommend a shorter time span.

Most of it will be emotional, and sound somewhat plausible.

Which political figures, in your opinion, are "independent/moderates"?

 

I do view/listen a lot of right wing media.  Fox news, Rush, Ben Shapiro, Tucker Carlson, etc.  I am looking for the reasoning and arguments, what even their ideals are.  All I mostly hear is name calling as in the Democrats are enemies of democracy, socialists, communists and a lot of yelling as well as outright lies.  Trying to get a rise out of people, like Dems are trying to take away rights, freedoms, etc.  The right wing media is smart and know how to tug at the heartstrings/prejudices, and manipulate.  I am shocked how effective it is for so many people.

I wasn't talking of political figures, as there are a few independents in Congress, but more about voters which there is often a large group that don't identify with either party.  Thus I would assume, these individuals would look at multiple news sources and should easily turn on the orange blob.  Yet it doesn't happen.

Anyways the orange terror, I am taking a break from paying attention to him.  Too stressful not worth it.  If he blows up the world, guts social security, whatever other crap that makes the citizens miserable, well nothing I can do about it.  I will just vote, hope this guy one day gets his Game of Thrones style walk of shame and that's it.  

Quote

To see if we take the Senate and White House. If we took the Senate and Trump is still there, then impeach we shall continue! If we do not take the Senate and Trump is still there, we have 4 more years for voters to forget about the drama.

If Trump is not there anymore, then the impeachment from the House has accomplished its goal, so it does not matter if we send the articles of impeachment or not, but we should still send it for formality's sake.

Basically, we are just stalling and dragging our feet for our benefit, just like what Republicans did with Obama.

Xray, I agree with you.  Republicans think they can get away with all this dirty play, but if Democrats start using their own evil tactics against them that is the only way they will stop.  If Trump is re elected, they should stall, run multiple impeachment inquiries, basically do everything they can to make his 2nd term a term of nothing.  No matter how 'low' they have to sink, with the crap they pulled with Obama, fuck them they won't be able to complain in good conscience that is if they have one at all.

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On 1/8/2020 at 11:39 AM, XRay said:

With how much we spend on the military, using them only for war is a huge waste. We need to be out there and put our shit to good use, like send our troops to do more humanitarian work, fighting pirates, etc. We also need to use our economy and free trade to build stronger relationships with more distant allies and neutral nations to expand our alliance and shield them from Chinese and Russian influence

And it does not have to involve the hard power either. Simply engaging with allies more to tackle world issues like global warming and promoting more open borders amongst allies is huge in maintaining and building our soft power.

It's not that I disagree, I just don't know if I can trust those in power to actually do the best for all involved so I'd rather we cut back on our military power.

On 1/8/2020 at 1:14 PM, eclipse said:

If they can't treat those within their own movement with the same basic humanity they're asking for, then I refuse to be associated with them.  Full stop.  IF you want me to even consider this differently, start calling out the bad behavior.  But this kind of logic isn't how to do it.

I'm already an outsider, so I'm not going to lose any sleep about NOT being a part of that group.

I think our main disagreement is how much of the community actually disenfranchises its more vulnerable members. In my experience, transphobia is held by a small minority but my experience is not universal.

I'm not trying to get you consider or ally yourself with anything more than I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. And you best believe that I am in the community calling out the bad behavior and I will continue to do so until it's eradicated.

However, completely stomping out bigotry, even in a social movement, is a nigh impossible task so saying that should happen before people get basic human rights isn't a convincing argument.

 

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44 minutes ago, Quiyonce said:

It's not that I disagree, I just don't know if I can trust those in power to actually do the best for all involved so I'd rather we cut back on our military power.

Iraq had one of the largest and most expensive military force in the world until we kicked their butts in Desert Storm. Maybe having the second best military might be okay, but having the third or fourth best military is a really bad idea in my opinion. While I am all for not raising military spending, I am a bit hesitant to actually cut back on military spending. I think it is fine to slowly decrease spending a little bit at a time and force the Pentagon to audit their books and get their financial shit together, but something drastic like slashing spending by 10% every year is too much.

I also do not think we can afford to step back territorially. Every inch of territory we step away, China and Russia would step in immediately. That dumbass Trump fucking handed the Kurds in Syria to the Russians despite the Kurds being some of our most stalwart allies in the Middle East.

Like, I am almost tempted to say Mike Pence would be a better president. In terms of foreign diplomacy, I feel pretty confident in Pence that he will do a good job, but since he also is not a complete dumbass, I am not sure what I will be giving up domestically since he will be more effective in passing super conservative laws.

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

I also do not think we can afford to step back territorially. Every inch of territory we step away, China and Russia would step in immediately. That dumbass Trump fucking handed the Kurds in Syria to the Russians despite the Kurds being some of our most stalwart allies in the Middle East.

And America didn't even get anything out of it. There's no indication that Turkey gave America anything. That probably makes it the dumbest foreign policy decision in recent history. Trump gives the green light for his allies to be butchered, gives ISIS a chance to escape from prison and reform since the Kurds are their wardens, drives them to America's enemies and gets nothing in return. 

Well....I say nothing, but doesn't Trump have a business tower in Istanbul? When an openly corrupt businessman makes a decision like that its not hard to imagine what he got in return.

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5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And America didn't even get anything out of it.

We got a laughing stock, specifically Trump. I remember the last time Trump went to Europe for some major diplomatic mission (I think it was either NATO or the G7 or something), he found out everyone was sniggering behind his back and he became the butt of many jokes. He quickly came back home sulking. I almost felt sorry for him until I remember the shit he is putting our immigrants, refugees, and Central American children through.

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11 hours ago, XRay said:

Like, I am almost tempted to say Mike Pence would be a better president. In terms of foreign diplomacy, I feel pretty confident in Pence that he will do a good job, but since he also is not a complete dumbass, I am not sure what I will be giving up domestically since he will be more effective in passing super conservative laws.

As someone who lived in Indiana while Pence was governor, he's still a complete dumbass. He may be a more effective president than 45, but considering Pence's politics, that would probably put us in a worse situation overall.

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On 1/9/2020 at 9:04 PM, Quiyonce said:

I think our main disagreement is how much of the community actually disenfranchises its more vulnerable members. In my experience, transphobia is held by a small minority but my experience is not universal.

I'm not trying to get you consider or ally yourself with anything more than I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. And you best believe that I am in the community calling out the bad behavior and I will continue to do so until it's eradicated.

However, completely stomping out bigotry, even in a social movement, is a nigh impossible task so saying that should happen before people get basic human rights isn't a convincing argument.

My introduction to this was of the treatment of bisexuals, then the other divisions.  It also doesn't help that the worst people I've dealt with are in the LGBT side (the worst being a gay guy who used "well I'm gay" to be an ass to me - and only me).  Couple that with the fact that I live in a relatively liberal area, where the average person generally don't ostracize someone for stuff like sexual orientation.  That's why I'm treating this group like I am - because in my mind, what's relevant is the human side, and the divisions tell me that they need to work on that first.

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8 hours ago, eclipse said:

My introduction to this was of the treatment of bisexuals, then the other divisions.  It also doesn't help that the worst people I've dealt with are in the LGBT side (the worst being a gay guy who used "well I'm gay" to be an ass to me - and only me).  Couple that with the fact that I live in a relatively liberal area, where the average person generally don't ostracize someone for stuff like sexual orientation.  That's why I'm treating this group like I am - because in my mind, what's relevant is the human side, and the divisions tell me that they need to work on that first.

Okay, that definitely helps my understanding. 

I've done a lot research into social movements for my undergrad so the divisions and issues, while still reprehensible, are unsurprising to me because it's a phenomena that always happens. There's always going to be those who are treated worse; so my logic isn't to pause the entire movement but to provide a platform and listen to the most vulnerable so progress is still being made and no one's getting left behind.

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Remember Yovanovitch, the ambassador that got fired for not being totally on board with Trump blackmailing Ukraine into investigating his personal enemies? Well apparently there are now phone record of Trump cronies stalking her every move in Ukraine. The way they talk about her location and security level suggested they might have been hatching a plot to do her harm. That's not a very good look. 

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1217215352754577409/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1217215352754577409&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231217215352754577409

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I was speaking to an attorney yesterday that represented the Trump Organization back in the 1990s, when he was going through his casino period and his bankruptcy in Atlantic City.

We joke alot about "how dumb do you have to be to bankrupt a CASINO???" 

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix

So apparently what happened is that Trump was going through a period where he was out of liquid assets, had multiple properties that were  not profitable + had more debt then cashflow, and needed fast cash and lots of it to get his failing business empire back above-water.

So the plan Trump came up with is that he was just going to get one (1) property that he could:

1) Convince everyone was a money-making machine and good collateral for multi-hundred million dollar bank loans.

2) Get the loans.

3) Use the loans to finance his other debts.

4) Attach all the loan debt he used to finance his other debts to this one (1) property

5) Run that property into the ground, bankrupt it, and discharge the debt in bankruptcy.  

...and the business venture he identified as the ideal property for this massive fraud scheme was--of course--a casino...

So Trump gets into the Casino business. Runs around to all the banks telling them hes got this multi-biillion dollar cash generating property now. Securing his loans, with equity interests in the casino backing the loan in the event of default.

Spends all the money.

Never pays back any of his creditors.  

And as he's doing this--he's not hiring staff for his casino. He's not maintaining the slot machines in working order. Hes not getting his necessary licenses and certifications from Atlantic City to keep the bars or the card-tables open.

He's just purposefully doing everything he can to make this business fail, while he loots the loans attached to it and buries it in personal debts.

With his intention all along being that the casino is going to go bankrupt and that's how he's going to defraud his creditors.   

(And this is the reason why American banks stopped lending to Donald Trump after the 1990s + he had to start going to the Russians. American banks were on notice after the Atlantic City debacle that this is what Trump does, and that you will never see your money again if you give him a loan) 
_____

Thats the kind of man you're dealing with in Donald Trump.

Thats the kind of mindset he brings to executing the powers of the President of the United States + getting through impeachment. 

 

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix.

In other words, we may not be dealing with an idiot.  This. . .is bad news indeed.

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28 minutes ago, eclipse said:

In other words, we may not be dealing with an idiot.  This. . .is bad news indeed.

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

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I'm still inclined to think that Trump is an impulsive idiot, but he's rich enough that his various...let's call them consiglieres, because he really does act like a mafioso a lot of the time...can craft these schemes and do the dirty work. We've seen it with Cohen, with his campaign, and even with Giuliani (though his competence is dubious, especially after he's had a few...) Trump has what I've seen George R. R. Martin call a "low cunning," but he's ultimately a Joffrey surrounded by Varyses and Littlefingers.

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6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

At least stupidity can be steered in the right direction, assuming a strong enough impetus.

But malice plus some intelligence?  Not happening.  It looks like we're on that end now.

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6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

How old is he? 73.  He has never paid for his misdeeds other than paltry sums here and there, so why would he believe he can be touched by real consequences?  No wonder he has a god complex as well.  

He is going to live and die living a golden life of wealth, luxury and women.  Screwing over many people and committing countless crimes and never paying for it.  That is Donald Trump.  That is the man elected president in 2016, reinforcing his godhood.  That is the man that will likely win in 2020.  He's a cartoonish supervillain, but even most of them are more likable or have some heart.  Yet even with much of his bad behavior on full display, no one can make him pay.  Pay really.  Usually successful criminals are stealthy and there may be many that live and die and the public or no one knows they did anything wrong.  This is not that.  

4 hours ago, Fëanen said:

I'm still inclined to think that Trump is an impulsive idiot, but he's rich enough that his various...let's call them consiglieres, because he really does act like a mafioso a lot of the time...can craft these schemes and do the dirty work. We've seen it with Cohen, with his campaign, and even with Giuliani (though his competence is dubious, especially after he's had a few...) Trump has what I've seen George R. R. Martin call a "low cunning," but he's ultimately a Joffrey surrounded by Varyses and Littlefingers.

Joffrey that is a perfect comparison.  A 73 year Joffrey whose behavior has never been punished.  

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12 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Wasn't it apparent that Trump would look to do whatever possible to get what he wants while shoving the responsibility for it unto others after Michael Cohen's testimony?

It was apparent long before that.  Just look at his businesses' legal history.  

I'd have to study history, but Trump is not only the worst president in my lifetime, but the worst American.  Worse than any American mass shooter, serial killer or whatever.  This douchebag was born into extreme privilige and has excessive wealth.  There is no need, no growing up in violent neighborhoods, no violent/sexual child abuse.  The guy is just fucks over whomever for his own benefit, to get even more.  More wealth, and feed his ego, and policies that have and will cause much suffering and lives.  This guy needs to be thrown into max security prison and get the shit beaten out of him on a daily basis.

There I go again, sorry.  However he deserves more than losing the presidency, and some fines.  

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

There I go again, sorry.  However he deserves more than losing the presidency, and some fines.  

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

  • Life sentence
  • Seizing of all his assets
  • Castration
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1 hour ago, Johann said:

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

  • Life sentence
  • Seizing of all his assets
  • Castration

I think that'd fall under the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment.

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

 

Jokes aside, while I do see in theory why Trump's fans like him, I don't get it in practice. Plenty of Republicans pride themselves on being fact-driven patriots who believe in what's right. So then why do they support an idiot with no facts, who feigns patriotism while being influenced by foreigners, and does literally everything wrong. I know how he gets a lot of his votes, since Republican voters never vote down party lines (my grandparents who disagreed with what most of Trump said and hated his guts still voted for him because he was Republican). And the worst part is that Trump has almost single-handedly engineered a decent chunk of folks who will just attack anything related to another party, without doing any research on it in the slightest.

A friend of mine shared an Instagram post by Trump. By most accounts, this is a stand-up dude, I love him to death, but he is the biggest Trump shill I know personally. It was another one of his "Democrats have devolved into a party of these things which I'm using language that both strawmans and misrepresents this issues, meanwhile I'm the best", and it took all I had in me not to call him and yell at him for believing this junk. They focus on tiny little things that one person in the entire Democratic party does, and then blow it WAY out of proportion. I won't act like the democrats are entirely innocent in this, they're not, but they only do it now because Trump has created the environment where that's just what naturally happens.

But the thing that really gets my blood boiling is when they complain about Dems not focusing on bipartisan issues the second that they propose a bill that even slightly veer away from their very narrow platform. Like impeachment, they were all like "Dems force partisan issues on us", like bitch, you're the fools who are making it partisan by not looking at any of the facts. One of these days someone has gotta come to their senses, somebody.

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On 1/15/2020 at 8:29 AM, Shoblongoo said:

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix

He is still dumb, he is just paying others to do the thinking for him.

I remember doing a short report on Trump's tax avoidance during that time period for my auditing class several years ago, and he used nearly a billion dollar in losses to offset nearly 20 years of taxes. That kind of shit basically involves smoking your accountants and tax lawyers skyhigh off of coke and weed to dial their creativity up to 12 and so they will have a very loose interpretation of the law.

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