General US Politics

[Ishmael]

5 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

I think that'd fall under the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment.

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

 

Jokes aside, while I do see in theory why Trump's fans like him, I don't get it in practice. Plenty of Republicans pride themselves on being fact-driven patriots who believe in what's right. So then why do they support an idiot with no facts, who feigns patriotism while being influenced by foreigners, and does literally everything wrong. I know how he gets a lot of his votes, since Republican voters never vote down party lines (my grandparents who disagreed with what most of Trump said and hated his guts still voted for him because he was Republican). And the worst part is that Trump has almost single-handedly engineered a decent chunk of folks who will just attack anything related to another party, without doing any research on it in the slightest.

A friend of mine shared an Instagram post by Trump. By most accounts, this is a stand-up dude, I love him to death, but he is the biggest Trump shill I know personally. It was another one of his "Democrats have devolved into a party of these things which I'm using language that both strawmans and misrepresents this issues, meanwhile I'm the best", and it took all I had in me not to call him and yell at him for believing this junk. They focus on tiny little things that one person in the entire Democratic party does, and then blow it WAY out of proportion. I won't act like the democrats are entirely innocent in this, they're not, but they only do it now because Trump has created the environment where that's just what naturally happens.

But the thing that really gets my blood boiling is when they complain about Dems not focusing on bipartisan issues the second that they propose a bill that even slightly veer away from their very narrow platform. Like impeachment, they were all like "Dems force partisan issues on us", like bitch, you're the fools who are making it partisan by not looking at any of the facts. One of these days someone has gotta come to their senses, somebody.

 

Forgive me for making this long and oft repeated analogy and my strange english but I believe Trump is rather like the Nazis in that while they weren't extremely popular with a majority of the citizens of their country but in their fringe minority, they are really, really popular because takes his stupid policies and he runs with it, while stealing the credit from administrations that actually improved lives for the people(the economy Trump inherited from Obama fixed the Bush Administration's faults, much like how Chancellor Brunning of Germany fixed the effects of the Depression on Germany but the Nazis stole his credit). Hell, he is even supporting dictatorial powers like Saudi Arabia and Russia while attacking his allies in NATO for not contributing funds for conflicts USA starts. He relies to much on making policies that really should be bipartisan and not political in the first place (the environment, discrimination of LGBTQ+ based on religion) into partisan topics. It also helps him immensely that despite his horrible political and business acumen, he has vast riches to fund his campaigns. He has successfully brainwashed his voter-base into believing he gives a damn about them when he just cares about lining his pockets. He even has acted more aggressive in Iran as an election strategy. Democrats themselves are also guilty of this and they are just as bad as Republicans for not challenging them properly and for being obsessed with safe elections.

Believing that any political party would come to its senses is absurd unfortunately because of the inherent problems with First Past the Post and the current political climate favours more radical views than moderate views (UKIP forcing the Labour Party in UK to become more conservative for example).

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Ishmael

[Dr. Tarrasque]

9 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

It already is with his son, Trump Jr. as an example:

Quote

This series of events [surrounding the June 9 meeting] could implicate the federal election-law ban on contributions and donations by foreign nationals...Specifically, Goldstone passed along an offer purportedly from a Russian government official to provide “official documents and information” to the Trump campaign for the purposes of influencing the presidential election. 
[T]he Office determined that the government would not be likely to obtain and sustain a conviction for two other reasons: first, the Office did not obtain admissible evidence likely to meet the government’s burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these individuals acted “willfully,” i.e. with general knowledge of the illegality of their conduct...

That's a bit from the Mueller Report basically saying that they didn't pursue a conviction of conspiracy because to do so the prosecuting side has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the people involved (in this case Trump Jr) knew that what they're doing is illegal. In simple terms, Trump Jr. was too stupid/ignorant to know that his meeting to get dirt on Hillary on that infamous meeting was illegal so they let him off the hook. How well does the defense "I didn't know it was illegal" work for commoners?

5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

It's a fantastical circus show really. One side advocates for policies to benefit everyone in the country which tend to be popular while the other side focuses more on calling such policies "socialism", toxicity of political correctness and anti-fat shaming, and ignoring simple problems that needs addressing like having to pay $6k-10k for childbirth while the rich just laugh and "both sides" everything.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Etrurian emperor]

5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

To an extend but it quickly starts to become less funny when Trump starts blackmailing other countries, treating his allies like dirt or nearly starting a war to distract from his impeachment. 

But its also a case of glass houses. Populism isn't really unique to America. If anything Trump was influenced by the populist politicians plaguing Europe for decades. Though it definitely is unique how fast Americans allowed themselves to be conned after their very first exposure to populism. But many other countries are facing the same struggles as the US. Britain has been stuck in populist hell since 2015 and many countries like Hungary and Poland have already fallen while populism is a significant force in countries like France or the Netherlands. Many Western nations have their own rogue demagogue and many of those have a realistic chance of getting to power. 

[Ishmael]

50 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

To an extend but it quickly starts to become less funny when Trump starts blackmailing other countries, treating his allies like dirt or nearly starting a war to distract from his impeachment. 

But its also a case of glass houses. Populism isn't really unique to America. If anything Trump was influenced by the populist politicians plaguing Europe for decades. Though it definitely is unique how fast Americans allowed themselves to be conned after their very first exposure to populism. But many other countries are facing the same struggles as the US. Britain has been stuck in populist hell since 2015 and many countries like Hungary and Poland have already fallen while populism is a significant force in countries like France or the Netherlands. Many Western nations have their own rogue demagogue and many of those have a realistic chance of getting to power. 

I'm not particularly surprised that the US got entranced with populism so quickly considering that unlike Europe, they hadn't really experienced a populist leader going bad or the full brunt of a war on their border from a foreign power either.

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

It's a fantastical circus show really. One side advocates for policies to benefit everyone in the country which tend to be popular while the other side focuses more on calling such policies "socialism", toxicity of political correctness and anti-fat shaming, and ignoring simple problems that needs addressing like having to pay $6k-10k for childbirth while the rich just laugh and "both sides" everything.

I do agree that Democrats are a hell of a lot better than Trump but I feel annoyed at the fact that they don't really show methods of implementation of stuff like Public Healthcare or university funds. As someone who has family in the US and hopes to study there, these policies would affect more than just the current generation and showing methods of implementing them would be a great step to get public interest in these policies up. Tribalism has started every where (even here to an extent) and being seen as right has become more important to people than doing the right thing. Republicans are especially guilty of this with trying to demonise immigrants and first hating the gay community to then supporting it for brownie points.

It does suck that people aren't really challenging Trump and by proxy Republican bs because a lot of stuff Trump does and supports is quite scary. Did you know that that most right wingers (looking mostly at Sargon, PJW, and PragerU) praise Russia for "owning the libs" and "feminist SJWs" when in actuality, it is worse to be a woman in Russia than in Saudi Arabia?

Edited January 17, 2020 by Ishmael

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It does suck that people aren't really challenging Trump and by proxy Republican bs because a lot of stuff Trump does and supports is quite scary. Did you know that that most right wingers (looking mostly at Sargon, PJW, and PragerU) praise Russia for "owning the libs" and "feminist SJWs" when in actuality, it is worse to be a woman in Russia than in Saudi Arabia?

I am not sure about being a woman is worse in Russia than Saudi Arabia, but they both seem pretty comparable and horrible. At least in Russia, women stand a better chance of emigrating and leaving to go to a better country, but Saudi Arabia has only recently allowed women to travel abroad without male consent.

[Ishmael]

28 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am not sure about being a woman is worse in Russia than Saudi Arabia, but they both seem pretty comparable and horrible. At least in Russia, women stand a better chance of emigrating and leaving to go to a better country, but Saudi Arabia has only recently allowed women to travel abroad without male consent.

The reason I criticise Russia more is because not only did it actually decriminalise domestic violence, it also is ranked number 1 for domestic violence and sexual harassment,  and it is reverting to old practices under the Orthodox Church. It also doesn't help that Russia also uses backwards Islamic law in respect to women (wife-beating and honour killings still persist in Russia). Hell, even immigration is hard for women and you require 3 male witnesses for a rape case.

I can't imagine any country willing to support Russia but here we are with only Sweden trying to do something against it.

[Tryhard]

There probably might be a little to say about the fact that the country is run by an autocratic leader, with his oligarch friends. The one who blatantly rigged his own Russian election and swaps titles every so many years so he can remain in power indefinitely. The same people who admire him as a strong leader are probably the same to bemoan the loss of 'western civilisation' and in the same breath supposedly hold democracy to the highest degree.

A strongman leader to fall behind seems to be a common thing that conservatives desire, while saying that individualism is integral to them.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Tryhard

[eclipse]

12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The reason I criticise Russia more is because not only did it actually decriminalise domestic violence, it also is ranked number 1 for domestic violence and sexual harassment,  and it is reverting to old practices under the Orthodox Church. It also doesn't help that Russia also uses backwards Islamic law in respect to women (wife-beating and honour killings still persist in Russia). Hell, even immigration is hard for women and you require 3 male witnesses for a rape case.

I can't imagine any country willing to support Russia but here we are with only Sweden trying to do something against it.

I don't think America's gonna step in on this one.  Collusion/Cold War aside, it would mean involving ourselves in what's essentially a massive domestic clusterfuck.

Ideally, we would, but realistically, I can't see it ending well for either country.

6 hours ago, Tryhard said:

A strongman leader to fall behind seems to be a common thing that conservatives desire, while saying that individualism is integral to them.

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

[Lewyn]

On 1/16/2020 at 7:42 PM, Johann said:

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

• Life sentence
• Seizing of all his assets
• Castration

I think all those are good, but thinking what would hurt Trump the most.  Humiliation, public humiliation.  There should be a parade, maybe a tour, where he wears one of those wood board signs.  On the front it would say "Worst president ever", on the back it would say "Traitor".   He would wear a dunce hat, and people would be allowed to throw rotten fruit at him.  Oh yeah with Illhan Omar leading the parade and forcing him to keep walking forward.  

Then sit him in a room with a gun and he'll do the rest.  Anyone see the Dead Zone?  

26 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

Sadaam is brown of course they would be frothing at the mouth.  White male strongman that fits their crazy prejudices and ideas.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

On 1/18/2020 at 12:29 AM, eclipse said:

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

And in the US, being white. For example, White Nationalists love the shit that Candace Owens spouts when it comes to them but they'll typically end any compliments by saying she'll never be one of them or just calling her something derogatory towards blacks. It's probably the same with the evangelical Christians that love Trump, they'll pretend they're fighting for their Religion when it's really for the "Christian Identity".

On 1/18/2020 at 12:56 AM, Lewyn said:

Sadaam is brown of course they would be frothing at the mouth.  White male strongman that fits their crazy prejudices and ideas.

This.

EDIT: 

 

Quote

He should be very careful with his words!

And his base demands a Civil War if he's impeached. Fuck this clown.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Johann]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

I think all those are good, but thinking what would hurt Trump the most.  Humiliation, public humiliation.  There should be a parade, maybe a tour, where he wears one of those wood board signs.  On the front it would say "Worst president ever", on the back it would say "Traitor".   He would wear a dunce hat, and people would be allowed to throw rotten fruit at him.  Oh yeah with Illhan Omar leading the parade and forcing him to keep walking forward.  

Then sit him in a room with a gun and he'll do the rest.  Anyone see the Dead Zone? 

I figure it's not about hurting him so much as preventing him from hurting anyone else, in any way, ever again

[eclipse]

A GENERAL REMINDER TO THIS THREAD:

You're free to despise Trump with every fiber of your being.  You're free to point out why Trump is an utter hypocrite/slimy/whatever.  But for the love of everything, do NOT stray into hate speech territory.

[Interdimensional Observer]

And that reminds me, the National Archives was reported to have blurred out Trump's name in some photographs of the 2017 women's march on Washington. The context was protesting signs denouncing him. The National Archives said the photographs were part of an exhibition and that the modifications were to cut down on things that'd make it less friendly for all ages. A historian I saw interviewed was appalled by this meddling with primary source documentation of the historical record.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And that reminds me, the National Archives was reported to have blurred out Trump's name in some photographs of the 2017 women's march on Washington. The context was protesting signs denouncing him. The National Archives said the photographs were part of an exhibition and that the modifications were to cut down on things that'd make it less friendly for all ages. A historian I saw interviewed was appalled by this meddling with primary source documentation of the historical record.

Welcome to whitewashing 101. Just like how the South has a different interpretation of the Civil War history, we're going to have idiots try to whitewash how truly stupid the Trump era was and frame it as "Trump was the best president and he was only ousted by a liberal snowflake rebellion because they couldn't get over Hillary's defeat. And her e-mails". Assuming of course he is ousted instead of reelected in the coming future...

[Lewyn]

Trump already has his defense team and has delivered his statement (which is hilariously childish).  It seems obvious what his strategy is going to be.  Huge theatrics, insults to the democrats, saying impeachment defies the will of the people.  Lots of mentions of the Bidens and how horrible they are.  

It isn't too much of a surprise, this is his basic strategy just about always and it has taken him far and allowed him to get away with just about everything.  These points will be repeated again and again in right media outlets, and they will cherry pick democratic talking points and assault them.  

Also if anyone watches Bill Maher, he had both Andrew Yang (who has a great sense of humor, still rooting for him) and Nancy Pelosi on his last show.  Pelosi is just a delight is she not?  

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Waking up on MLK Jr day, I found it ironic that today many folks get the day off observing the Birthday of a black man (January 15th) while in the Senate we have an old white turtle blocking election day from being a day that most people agree everyone should have off.

[Lewyn]

7 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Waking up on MLK Jr day, I found it ironic that today many folks get the day off observing the Birthday of a black man (January 15th) while in the Senate we have an old white turtle blocking election day from being a day that most people agree everyone should have off.

Of course Mitch doesn't want anything approaching a fair election.  The Republicans would never win again.  Will of the people, sure.  The will of the people would mean no Bush Jr, we'd have Al gore instead, and no Trump we'd have Hillary.  Likely Senate and House both controlled by Democrats.  The country would be a million times better and the Republican party would be extinct.  

Yes election day is a holiday in many countries so everyone has the opportunity to vote.  It should be here as well, we should want everyone to vote and encourage it.  The president and congress and all other offices should represent the peoples choice.  Not my president is a perfectly valid response to Trump.  Someone who won with steroids in a sport, or broke rules cheated in some other way same thing.

[eclipse]

56 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Of course Mitch doesn't want anything approaching a fair election.  The Republicans would never win again.

I wouldn't make this assumption yet.  There's no telling what stands between now and November.  Then again, neither does the Republican party, and the fact that they can't control it means that they're more likely to freak out.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

38 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I wouldn't make this assumption yet.  There's no telling what stands between now and November.  Then again, neither does the Republican party, and the fact that they can't control it means that they're more likely to freak out.

Mitch has made the assumption, he called it a power grab by the Democrats

[Lewyn]

Yes...a power grab cause letting every citizen vote would be bad.  Much better to only let those that are well off who can afford to take a day off, or who don't have to work double/odd shifts, etc to vote.  Mitch is like Trump, but smarter, quieter, garners much less attention.  

The impeachment trial is a Republican/GOP sham/cover up.  No witnesses, no documents, cramming super long days so no one is going to watch everything and get through it quickly.  Hope all the GOP Senate seats are flipped, then even if Trump steals the election (only way he can win, and he will continue to try to rig it anyway he can) he can quickly be removed.  

America.  Democracy?  Freedom?  Justice?  Ha what a joke.  

[eclipse]

29 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

America.  Democracy?  Freedom?  Justice?  Ha what a joke.  

It's an effort by the Republicans to get rid of pesky things like voting for all.  But to completely write off America is an insult to countries that have it worse, IMO.  Much as it sucks, at least we still have the option to vote Trump out (and hopefully he'll GTFO when it's time).

[Lewyn]

39 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's an effort by the Republicans to get rid of pesky things like voting for all.  But to completely write off America is an insult to countries that have it worse, IMO.  Much as it sucks, at least we still have the option to vote Trump out (and hopefully he'll GTFO when it's time).

Do we have that option though?  What is to prevent from Trump to ask other countries to continue to interfere in the election, or ask foreign powers to dig dirt on political opponents?  That is in addition to voter suppression/gerrymandering and all that other good stuff.  

I'm sure if despite all that stuff, Trump loses, he will say it was rigged against him that other nations interfered against him and refuse to leave.  He even said it before the results of the 2016 election, I guess assuming he was going to lose.  

The GOP and Trump have taken power away from the people.

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Do we have that option though?  What is to prevent from Trump to ask other countries to continue to interfere in the election, or ask foreign powers to dig dirt on political opponents?  That is in addition to voter suppression/gerrymandering and all that other good stuff.  

I'm sure if despite all that stuff, Trump loses, he will say it was rigged against him that other nations interfered against him and refuse to leave.  He even said it before the results of the 2016 election, I guess assuming he was going to lose.  

The GOP and Trump have taken power away from the people.

We.  Don't.  Know.  That.  Yet.  Yes, it's a possibility.  But I'm not going to assume the worst when primaries haven't even started.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

8 hours ago, eclipse said:

We.  Don't.  Know.  That.  Yet.  Yes, it's a possibility.  But I'm not going to assume the worst when primaries haven't even started.

We actually do know most of it with the only outlier being whether or not enough people in the Swing states will vote out the orange turd come November, because that's ultimately the deciding factor. I think most folks just continue to be in disbelief of it all because this shit just all seems like it's straight out of a comic. "There's no way this is happening in America, we're better than that right?". While the Trump cult just throws away any semblance of justice, fairness and rule of law if it has Trump in it.

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

What is to prevent from Trump to ask other countries to continue to interfere in the election, or ask foreign powers to dig dirt on political opponents? 

Nothing. He's done it publicly with China already when he asked them to investigate the Bidens and today we're still seeing a trial being rigged to acquit him as soon as possible. There's talk of China wanting him reelected because he's easy to read. Any conversations with Russia are kept as hidden as can be and even if it were made public that he directly asked Putin for interference, with all the evidence in the world, they would still put their heads in the sand and ignore it all like they're doing right now.

It is Congress' responsibility to hold him accountable for his actions and the Republicans have shown they're not interested in oversight if the President is from their party. We cannot expect enough of them to vote to remove Trump in this senate trial, they're just not interested in a fair trial.

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

That is in addition to voter suppression/gerrymandering and all that other good stuff.  

Which the GOP WILL keep doing. GOP in Florida just got a win with the recent ruling from their Supreme Court. Notice the language by DeSantis in that tweet, "Voting is a privilege that should not be taken lightly". Look up any amendment related to voting and you'll see the bolded is garbage and that he's just trying to justify this crap because it benefits him and his party.

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I'm sure if despite all that stuff, Trump loses, he will say it was rigged against him that other nations interfered against him and refuse to leave.  He even said it before the results of the 2016 election, I guess assuming he was going to lose.  

He did. He also said he deserves 2 more years because they were stolen due to investigations. The man's a clear example of extreme narcissism who believes he can do no wrong and will come up with anything to suggest he deserves to be held in high regard and retain his power no matter what happens. Anyone who doesn't believe that may be forgetting that he commissioned an investigation to prove that the popular vote was lost due to illegal immigrants voting as well as the investigations by Barr to try and prove that Trumps campaign was spied on and that there was unfair bias against Trump culminating into all the investigations. They've found little to nothing but it didn't stop right-wing media from conflating small missteps into vindication of all their conspiracy theories.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Dr. Tarrasque

[eclipse]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

We actually do know most of it with the only outlier being whether or not enough people in the Swing states will vote out the orange turd come November, because that's ultimately that matters. I think most folks just continue to be in disbelief of it all because this shit just all seems like it's straight out of a comic. "There's no way this is happening in America, we're better than that right?". While the Trump cult just throws any semblance of justice, fairness and rule of law if it has Trump in it.

We can infer what may happen, given Trump's record of behavior.  But we can't say for certain what will happen during the elections.  The country is deeply divided, and making assumptions about others is the last thing that we need.