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2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Bernie supporters are not like supporters of many of the other Dem candidates.  They aren't necessarily Democrats, so they aren't looking at what is best for the 'party', they just love Bernie.  

The common thread of Sanders and Trump is that base voters for decades have felt like the mainstream body politics of their respective parties have failed to represent them on-the-issues. And party bosses have have met their grievances with pissy lectures on how the kind of talk they want to hear from their leaders is "unelectable."   

And the base voters are finally telling the party bosses to go fuck themselves + treating their doom-and-gloom over the prospect of THAT candidate winning the party's nomination as a boon, rather than as a demerit. 

...the notable difference of course being that the R's were looking for a candidate who would break party convention that its 'unelectable' to treat Latin American immigration as a hostile takeover of white America...

...and the D's are looking for a candidate who breaks party convention that its 'unelectable' to run on European Socialism, universal healthcare, and free college...

...but hey details...   

On 2/23/2020 at 1:37 PM, eclipse said:

Bernie's changes are scary, because they're a giant shift away from what has become the norm in America (no matter how screwed up that norm is).  Big changes in a short amount of time are scary, and in some cases, ill-advised.  Much as I want Bernie's policies to go through, I predict that there will be a huge resurgence in Republican Senate/House seats, meaning that the amount of change he will be able to do will be heavily limited.

[Biden in 2019]: "Bernie isn't electable in a general election. I'm the most electable general election candidate in the field. I'm the most electable because I'm the Democrat who can win those white blue-collar workers that voted for Trump. Bernie can only appeal to the party base."

[Biden in 2020]: "Well we're gonna comeback in South Carolina because voters of color are the real base of the democratic party, and thats where we expect to hit our real appeal. Yeah--Bernie did great in Iowa and New Hampshire--but thats only because those states are mono-white and he really does great with those white blue-color voters. That doesn't mean anything."

--------

Take heart in knowing there's absolutely zero evidence that the Bidens and the Klobuchars and the like were more electable alternatives to Sanders. And if anything, the reverse seems to be true.

 

   

Edited by Shoblongoo
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I know one Trump supporter saying he like Bernie more than the other Dems. He's just a little worried the government will take away his car and force car companies to stop selling non-electric ones. The difference between a voter who does and does not understand the stakes of presidential elections? The one who's illogically afraid of consequences shows up to vote. So I'm definitely worried about the general if only because the narrative that both candidates are really just the same at the end of the day pervades every election no matter how ridiculous the statement gets. And it's that narrative that keeps people home, especially when it's incumbent vs. challenger.

 

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1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

The common thread of Sanders and Trump is that base voters for decades have felt like the mainstream body politics of their respective parties have failed to represent them on-the-issues. And party bosses have have met their grievances with pissy lectures on how the kind of talk they want to hear from their leaders is "unelectable."   

And the base voters are finally telling the party bosses to go fuck themselves + treating their doom-and-gloom over the prospect of THAT candidate winning the party's nomination as a boon, rather than as a demerit. 

...the notable difference of course being that the R's were looking for a candidate who would break party convention that its 'unelectable' to treat Latin American immigration as a hostile takeover of white America...

...and the D's are looking for a candidate who breaks party convention that its 'unelectable' to run on European Socialism, universal healthcare, and free college...

...but hey details...   

[Biden in 2019]: "Bernie isn't electable in a general election. I'm the most electable general election candidate in the field. I'm the most electable because I'm the Democrat who can win those white blue-collar workers that voted for Trump. Bernie can only appeal to the party base."

[Biden in 2020]: "Well we're gonna comeback in South Carolina because voters of color are the real base of the democratic party, and thats where we expect to hit our real appeal. Yeah--Bernie did great in Iowa and New Hampshire--but thats only because those states are mono-white and he really does great with those white blue-color voters. That doesn't mean anything."

--------

Take heart in knowing there's absolutely zero evidence that the Bidens and the Klobuchars and the like were more electable alternatives to Sanders. And if anything, the reverse seems to be true.

Well said, and let's not forget the classic: "Only a Centrist can beat Trump". The Democratic leadership hasn't learned the harsh lesson it needs to and their current use of the word unity appears to be a euphemism for "Submit to the status quo".

There needs to be more emphasis on policy and how it affects the people of the country and less of the "left vs right" garbage. Destroy the Oligarchy first and foremost.

15 hours ago, Crysta said:

Hopefully we all keep in mind that winning the presidency does not result in rapid systematic change, and we're gonna get neither the death squads or the amazing socialist revolution.

Our government really, really doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

Indeed. The Republicans will likely play the same way they did with Obama. As I've said many times in this thread, what needs to happen is to make it evident to the people of the country that the true "do-nothing" party are the Republicans. But that's why the person pushing change is a necessity to put into the presidency because at the very least, compromises WILL have to come from the Republican party if they wish to maintain their political careers. Getting money out of politics is an essential change that must come sooner rather than later and we're not going to see it from folks taking donations from the Billionaires and with Sanders it will be quite the uphill battle but at least it's better than what we can expect from the moderates/centrists: Cleaning up after Republicans.

Remember, "Nothing would fundamentally change" if Joe Biden's elected. His campaign deserves to sink.

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

 However if Sanders has a big lead but it goes to brokered convention and then someone else gets the nomination that is a different story.  

That's looking like the most likely outcome with each passing day, specially after the most recent debate.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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Joe Biden just generally sucks at running for president and I don't think you need to try very hard to sink him lol

You don't need a centrist, you just need a politician who can connect and/or scare voters. Trump did both and eked out a win in spite of having next to no political finesse (in fact, not having any polish turned out to be appealing).

As for down ballot candidates and the House/Senate, yeah, we're gonna rough time. That wouldn't have changed with Biden being there instead, though.

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Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

34 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Well said, and let's not forget the classic: "Only a Centrist can beat Trump". The Democratic leadership hasn't learned the harsh lesson it needs to and their current use of the word unity appears to be a euphemism for "Submit to the status quo".

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

It is not that I disagree with most policies further left, but I am a little skeptical of their ability to get things done. If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently. I want free education and I am fine with nationalized healthcare, but I do not think it is the right approach to rush it without considering how to actually implement and preserve those policies. We still need moderate Republicans to help secure each step of the way. Obamacare may be gutted, but the framework and the foundation is still there, and a decent fraction of Republicans were hesitant to repealing it, and we need those Republicans.

34 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Joe Biden just generally sucks at running for president and I don't think you need to try very hard to sink him lol

You don't need a centrist, you just need a politician who can connect and/or scare voters. Trump did both and eked out a win in spite of having next to no political finesse (in fact, not having any polish turned out to be appealing).

For me, the appeal of Biden is that he seems calm and seems to have the most relevant experience since he was Vice President.

His campaign is not great, but it is not terrible either. As long as he can maintain and expand a bit more on what Obama achieves, I am happy with that.

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2 hours ago, XRay said:

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

The evidence points to most of the Democratic candidates not moving at all. People like to think we in the US currently function as a Centrist country but are we really? Obama was viewed as conservative by folks in Europe and our right-wing party is a place literal Nazis feel welcomed in and are able to win. What policies are actually so far left that we end up becoming Left instead of just going to the center or getting close. Is moving further to the right like we are with Trump any better when that's just resulting in hypocritical lawmakers and "pay 2 legislate" garbage these motherfucking politicians should be locked up for instead? What if AOC is correct when she says the current Democratic is indeed "Center-Right".

Based on what I've seen so far, going with a "moderate" candidate is playing for the short term and setting up Republicans to win in the next cycle because the moderate candidate will just spend most of their time cleaning up and getting nothing done.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

 If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently.

Here's an idea: Fuck the current Republican politicians. They're pieces of shit still claiming to be the party of Lincoln while cowering before a wannabe dictator now that they're finally reaping what they've sowed with their use of the Southern Strategy. They're the party that makes Nazis feel welcome, the party that wants to elect their voters instead of having people vote, the party where "consensual rape" has been conceived. The sooner this country realizes that the current politicians in the Republican party are owed nothing but scorn and more blame for the problems in the country over the last 40 years than the Democrats, the sooner we can start getting politicians focusing on actual issues instead of pandering to racists and abortion obsessed evangelicals.

Obama tried to work with Republicans and they outright refused because the man is black and had no interest in legislation with him around. Biden thinking that he can work with them is a delusion in the context of getting anything necessary done in the country and part of Trump's appeal was that he seemed different than the other Republican nominees because he promised not to cut social security as well as some non-wall related campaign promises that were actually good but as well know, they got conned. Oh and "shaking up DC", that was part of his appeal too.

 

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

That's looking like the most likely outcome with each passing day, specially after the most recent debate.

Fortunately, the way things are going, even if Bernie doesn't get more than 50%, the contribution of Super Delegates won't be enough to close the gap between Bernie and #2. Bernie's huge win in Nevada only serves to add to his momentum, and he's surging in South Carolina, which is Biden's last hope to gain any momentum before Super Tuesday. Warren meanwhile is polling just kinda okay everywhere, and Buttigieg's biggest hopes were in states that already voted.

This all changes when people start dropping out, though. Bernie benefits the most right now from the cluttered field, much like Trump did in 2016.

Anyway, dropped off my ballot today. I haven't checked how Bernie's doing in Minnesota, so it'll be interesting to see how close it is between him and Klobuchar.

Edited by Slumber
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17 hours ago, XRay said:

Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

You're right, it's March 3rd. Turned in my ballot last weekend (voting by mail).

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20 hours ago, XRay said:

Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

It is not that I disagree with most policies further left, but I am a little skeptical of their ability to get things done. If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently. I want free education and I am fine with nationalized healthcare, but I do not think it is the right approach to rush it without considering how to actually implement and preserve those policies. We still need moderate Republicans to help secure each step of the way. Obamacare may be gutted, but the framework and the foundation is still there, and a decent fraction of Republicans were hesitant to repealing it, and we need those Republicans.

For me, the appeal of Biden is that he seems calm and seems to have the most relevant experience since he was Vice President.

His campaign is not great, but it is not terrible either. As long as he can maintain and expand a bit more on what Obama achieves, I am happy with that.

...its pretty terrible...

Like--the nicest thing I have to say about the Biden campaign right now is ...well they didn't shit-the-bed quite as hard as Mike Bloomberg...

Biden's a good guy and would probably make a decent president, but he sucks at campaigning. 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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19 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Here's an idea: Fuck the current Republican politicians. They're pieces of shit still claiming to be the party of Lincoln while cowering before a wannabe dictator now that they're finally reaping what they've sowed with their use of the Southern Strategy. They're the party that makes Nazis feel welcome, the party that wants to elect their voters instead of having people vote, the party where "consensual rape" has been conceived. The sooner this country realizes that the current politicians in the Republican party are owed nothing but scorn and more blame for the problems in the country over the last 40 years than the Democrats, the sooner we can start getting politicians focusing on actual issues instead of pandering to racists and abortion obsessed evangelicals.

Maybe after another 20 years or so when Texas turns blue, but we cannot just ignore Republicans right now. We simply do not have enough of a majority to completely go without Republicans. Even if we solve gerrymandering and all that voting suppression crap, about half the country is Republican or lean that way.

6 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

...its pretty terrible...

Like--the nicest thing I have to say about the Biden campaign right now is ...well they didn't shit-the-bed quite as hard as Mike Bloomberg...

It is lackluster and very boring, I agree, but I do not think that is an automatic bad thing.

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23 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

The common thread of Sanders and Trump is that base voters for decades have felt like the mainstream body politics of their respective parties have failed to represent them on-the-issues. And party bosses have have met their grievances with pissy lectures on how the kind of talk they want to hear from their leaders is "unelectable."   

And the base voters are finally telling the party bosses to go fuck themselves + treating their doom-and-gloom over the prospect of THAT candidate winning the party's nomination as a boon, rather than as a demerit. 

...the notable difference of course being that the R's were looking for a candidate who would break party convention that its 'unelectable' to treat Latin American immigration as a hostile takeover of white America...

...and the D's are looking for a candidate who breaks party convention that its 'unelectable' to run on European Socialism, universal healthcare, and free college...

...but hey details...   

[Biden in 2019]: "Bernie isn't electable in a general election. I'm the most electable general election candidate in the field. I'm the most electable because I'm the Democrat who can win those white blue-collar workers that voted for Trump. Bernie can only appeal to the party base."

[Biden in 2020]: "Well we're gonna comeback in South Carolina because voters of color are the real base of the democratic party, and thats where we expect to hit our real appeal. Yeah--Bernie did great in Iowa and New Hampshire--but thats only because those states are mono-white and he really does great with those white blue-color voters. That doesn't mean anything."

--------

Take heart in knowing there's absolutely zero evidence that the Bidens and the Klobuchars and the like were more electable alternatives to Sanders. And if anything, the reverse seems to be true.

 

   

Yes this 'unelectable' word being thrown around constantly has to stop.  It isn't supported by the polls at all.  

If Democrats take the Senate they need their own Mitch Mcconnell, who if there isn't a majority of their party that approves of the bill it won't even come to vote.  Oh yeah and if Trump is president or any other Republican, don't allow votes on Supreme court justices or any judges.  If Bernie or a Dem is there approve judges and stack the courts at a record pace.  Ignore Fox and the right wing media and the explosion they have, all they have to say is "Look at Mitch, hypocrites".  

If Sanders gets in he has to abuse the executive order as much as possible, not only to push his policies as much as possible but to teach Republicans a lesson.  If you are going to abuse expand power, we'll do it to.  

If worst comes to worst and Republicans take back house, retain Senate, Trump wins.  They should do government shutdowns and whatever scumbag tactics they can. 

To the present, Trump's dumb wall blasted through a native american gravesite despite their protests and weren't even consulted.  Oh and Bloomberg is launching a huge attack campaign on Bernie Sanders as well.  

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

If Democrats take the Senate they need their own Mitch Mcconnell, who if there isn't a majority of their party that approves of the bill it won't even come to vote.  Oh yeah and if Trump is president or any other Republican, don't allow votes on Supreme court justices or any judges.  If Bernie or a Dem is there approve judges and stack the courts at a record pace.  Ignore Fox and the right wing media and the explosion they have, all they have to say is "Look at Mitch, hypocrites".  

If Sanders gets in he has to abuse the executive order as much as possible, not only to push his policies as much as possible but to teach Republicans a lesson.  If you are going to abuse expand power, we'll do it to.  

If worst comes to worst and Republicans take back house, retain Senate, Trump wins.  They should do government shutdowns and whatever scumbag tactics they can. 

To the present, Trump's dumb wall blasted through a native american gravesite despite their protests and weren't even consulted.  Oh and Bloomberg is launching a huge attack campaign on Bernie Sanders as well.  

No, fuck that. If we're going to stay stuck in a 2-party system with the Republican party remaining as it currently is then we certainly don't want what is currently supposed to be the lesser of 2 evils to stoop to their level of hyper-partisan garbage as well as reinforcing the "both sides" narrative the mainstream media loves to push out of fear from the Republican base.

Primary shitty Democrats to improve the party and hold them to the standards of where we should be instead of where Trump and McConnell have lowered the bar to. Hammer the facts of their failures and the work that the recent Democratic presidents have had to do to clean up the Republican messes. Make it as clear as possible to the masses that voting for Republicans like the ones we have today is to vote for a regressive party bought by the rich. Most importantly, run on good policy and be mindful of regular Americans because seriously, that Carbon Tax is something the Democrats should consider ditching unless their goal is to give Republicans shit to seize on in the future.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque
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26 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

No, fuck that. If we're going to stay stuck in a 2-party system with the Republican party remaining as it currently is then we certainly don't want what is currently supposed to be the lesser of 2 evils to stoop to their level of hyper-partisan garbage as well as reinforcing the "both sides" narrative the mainstream media loves to push out of fear from the Republican base.

Primary shitty Democrats to improve the party and hold them to the standards of where we should be instead of where Trump and McConnell have lowered the bar to. Hammer the facts of their failures and the work that the recent Democratic presidents have had to do to clean up the Republican messes. Make it as clear as possible to the masses that voting for Republicans like the ones we have today is to vote for a regressive party bought by the rich. Most importantly, run on good policy and be mindful of regular Americans because seriously, that Carbon Tax is something the Democrats should consider ditching unless their goal is to give Republicans shit to seize on in the future.

Well really the Republican party needs to go they are racist, sexist and are for tyranny and power.  We need multiple parties but the GOP especially in its current iteration is a pure negative for America.  It is a disgusting extremist organization spreading lies. 

Moreover the hyper partisan garbage has started with the Republicans and it isn't going to stop, Democrats have tried playing nice but it is a fool's errand.  If they force a bunch of stuff through like President Chump and Moscow Mitch are doing, then they can make it really hard for Republicans if they get back in power to push their evil agendas and reverse progress.  Republicans aren't about compromise they are about winning at all costs, and the Democrats have to be the same to realistically compete.  

Being the better more fair party hasn't worked out for themselves so far.   We got Donald Trump in office, who has committed atrocities like seemingly every day, lies constantly and Democrats try to rationally explain why he is wrong and where does it get us?  Trump's approval rating goes up!

The right wing media is going to push their crap regardless of what the Democrats do, they can do everything perfectly and they will make stuff up they always do.  Many Americans just buy it up and always will.

 

Edited by Lewyn
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Bloomberg's performance last night was terrifying. At least two allusions to buying seats in congress is a horrifying prospect for a potential president.

He does really seem to think he's entitled to more power just because he's megarich. It's like he is what Trump wishes he could be.

Edited by Slumber
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27 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Bloomberg's performance last night was terrifying. 


I'd be bothered if it looked like he had any serious prospect of becoming the nominee.
____

Pelosi out today saying she's comfortable with Bernie at the top of the ticket. (Say what you will about Nancy Pelosi:  she does her math, and doesn't say or do anything unless she knows the numbers are there)

Pelosi pivoting herself into alignment with Bernie is as clear a signal as any you're gonna get that people in-the-know are looking at the numbers, and know the numbers say its gonna be Bernie. 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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7 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:


I'd be bothered if it looked like he had nay serious prospect of becoming the nominee.
____

Pelosi out today saying she's comfortable with Bernie at the top of the ticket. (Say what you will about Nancy Pelosi:  she does her math, and doesn't say or do anything unless she knows the numbers are there)

Pelosi pivoting herself into alignment with Bernie is as clear a signal as any you're gonna get that people in-the-know are looking at the numbers, and know the numbers say its gonna be Bernie. 

 

I'm not a huge Pelosi fan, but she's easily the shrewdest politician the dems have. She's smart and knows how to play the game. Her signaling to the party that she'd support Bernie is definitely a big sign that she's at least getting ready for the possibility of President Sanders.

She's also probably pretty aware of how devastating it would be to the party if Sanders got the most support from the base, but was then shut down at a contested convention. There seem to be a fair few democrats who think robbing the front-runner of a win would be no big deal... most of them running for the nomination right now.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of the party expected last night's debate to go much worse for Bernie, when really it showed how strong his base is. It might be one of the factors in Pelosi saying this today.

Edited by Slumber
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12 minutes ago, Slumber said:

She's also probably pretty aware of how devastating it would be to the party if Sanders got the most support from the base, but was then shut down at a contested convention. There seem to be a fair few democrats who think robbing the front-runner of a win would be no big deal... most of them running for the nomination right now.

Its the Democratic version of all the corporate (R)'s back in 2016 who just could not process that they were no longer looking at the old GOP of McCain and Romney they thought they knew after Trump to their absolute horror emerged from New Hampshire as the clear frontrunner + barometer of what the party base was looking for in a leader. And were trying to wargame out scenarios where the race could still go to Jeb or Kaisich, or delegates could abandon Trump at a brokered convention.
______

The new generation of (D)'s is more progressive, unflinchingly behind universal healthcare and higher education as a baseline litmus test for whether or not a candidate represents them on-the-issues, and doesn't respond to 'socialism' as a scare-word.

Bernie's platform is the future of the party. 
 

Edited by Shoblongoo
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3 hours ago, eclipse said:

What did I say about hyperbole?

What hyperbole?  There is a lot of anger but no exaggeration in my posts.  Please explain.

57 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its the Democratic version of all the corporate (R)'s back in 2016 who just could not process that they were no longer looking at the old GOP of McCain and Romney they thought they knew after Trump to their absolute horror emerged from New Hampshire as the clear frontrunner + barometer of what the party base was looking for in a leader. And were trying to wargame out scenarios where the race could still go to Jeb or Kaisich, or delegates could abandon Trump at a brokered convention.
______

The new generation of (D)'s is more progressive, unflinchingly behind universal healthcare and higher education as a baseline litmus test for whether or not a candidate represents them on-the-issues, and doesn't respond to 'socialism' as a scare-word.

Bernie's platform is the future of the party. 
 

Bernie is the future and thank goodness.  He is also getting more support from older voters than he did in 2016.  The DNC need to unite behind him 100% as the RNC did behind Trump if Bernie (hopefully) gets the nomination or even if he has the majority vote.  Anything less and they are handing Trump the win and Republicans power for the next 4 years.   

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7 hours ago, Lewyn said:

What hyperbole?  There is a lot of anger but no exaggeration in my posts.  Please explain.

Please reread what you wrote - here.  Can you truly say that there's no hyperbole in this?

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14 hours ago, eclipse said:

Please reread what you wrote - here.  Can you truly say that there's no hyperbole in this?

Your hyperbole comment was in relation to my post just above said comment, right on this page.  There was no exaggeration in it.  

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