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2 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

Yeah, but once those people get sick and their rural hospitals are too overloaded to deal with a pandemic... and once they refuse the vaccine (which, by the way, is an even scarier thought right now because Trump wants Kushner to get one developed by December and if Trump fucks up a vaccine it helps the anti-vax argument a lot more than you want).

The virus' current stats make this seem like a lot of "ifs" that have to happen just for an eventual case of his supporters just saying "He's doing his best! Obama would've been worse!" and just shrug it all off anyway. I would certainly hope for a blue wave and the likes of Mitch McConnell to lose their power but you appear to be neglecting how much Trumpists have already turned a blind eye to what Trump has been doing and the Right-wing media and personalities constantly hiding his cronyism only perpetuates that problem.

19 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

I don't care about appearing partisan here. It's very obvious that there's only two parties; the big tent and the Republicans. Wipe out the Republicans, split the Democrats, or force the Republicans to oppose the Democrats from the center or left as opposed to whatever the fuck kind of cult they're in now.

You should though. Partisan polarization makes you stupid and it only makes things worse when trying to reason with people. If you're caught up in an argument between a Democrat and a Republican that voted Trump, attacking the Democrat when they are actually wrong on something helps open up the other person to your reasoning.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I would certainly hope for a blue wave and the likes of Mitch McConnell to lose their power but you appear to be neglecting how much Trumpists have already turned a blind eye to what Trump has been doing and the Right-wing media and personalities constantly hiding his cronyism only perpetuates that problem.

Don't worry -- I'm fully aware.

Other people will be too, when the curve isn't flat. Because it's not anywhere close to flat.

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

You should though. Partisan polarization makes you stupid and it only makes things worse when trying to reason with people. If you're caught up in an argument between a Democrat and a Republican that voted Trump, attacking the Democrat when they are actually wrong on something helps open up the other person to your reasoning.

When I say "Democrat" and "republican" I'm referring solely to politicians and not people. To me Democrats and Republicans are politicians, and added voter afterwards is people. That's how I've been operating the last few years, and it's fully consistent with what I've been saying.

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On 5/6/2020 at 4:25 PM, Lord Raven said:

Bro what the fuck

That isn't aimed at you. I'm just amazed that someone like Rogan could stoop that low. What a fucking moron. Thankfully Howard Stern told Trump to drink bleach and gave Biden his unequivocal support.

Either way, I think the results and deaths will speak for themselves. The propaganda machine will break down in a few months with the weight of the bullshit. There really is a reckoning coming.

There are arguments of various eras of single-party or single-philosophy rule. Republicans basically had the presidency from Lincoln up until the Great Depression, then the Democrats had it from mostly FDR up until LBJ (with Ike Eisenhower being of similar platform to the Democrats). Then Republicans had it from Nixon mostly until now, with Clinton being of a third way platform between conservative and liberal Democrats, Carter being more conservative at the time than Republicans, and then Obama being this black liberal Jesus, and back to Trump. I think the wars and pestilence are simply too unsustainable for propaganda to work at this point.

Given the amount of bullshit up at the top, and the amount of internal struggles within Trump's cabinet, I don't think security will be loyal to Trump. If he refuses the results of the election, he will likely be shot on the spot on January 20th, 2021 if he does not vacate the white house.

At this point, anyone who's of sound mind not voting Biden is an active detriment, and I think Trump will fuck things up worse in 6 months to the point where he will get blown the fuck out. Between Iraq and COVID-19, we need to guarantee the Republican Party does not leave 2020 alive, or in its current form. I actually believe at this point that because the Republicans refuse to act on any of the current issues that we will see a massive MASSIVE blue wave that will last for decades because the dangers of incompetence will linger until people forget what our current times feel like.

The results and Deaths and economy crash, apocalypse or whatever will be blamed on Obama and China and a large portion of the country will eat it up.  The Republican propoganda machine is unbreakable, Trump followers will believe Obama is an alien from Mars who was sent to end the human race if he said it.  They believe what he says over Dr. Fauci.  They believe him over any expert in any field regardless of what the topic there is.  Talk about furious, I feel you.  However I'm more furious at how brainwashed and immovable many people are who support him.  Trump is an evil idiot, but if so many support him even after all the crap he has done and said and will continue to do and say then he is the president we deserve.  Best thing is for those of which it is a real possibility and are intelligent to move to a country that doesn't have a sociopath toddler as their leader.

He won't get shot.  Likely his followers will start a civil war, bring their dumb guns and scream about freedom and whatever.  Like the person that murdered a security man for a store cause the store required a mask which he refused.  This happened in Michigan.  Someone should ask Trump about this, he'd probably say the security man was also wrong or something, something.  Free Michigan from that dumb airhead woman!

Trump definitely won't get blown out.  Remember that Fox and the rest of the massive right wing machine won't ever ever turn on him.

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

So with everyone distracted by Corona the Trump administration quickly decided to shield one of their cronies from justice. The case against former security advisor Flynn is officially dropped. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/us/politics/michael-flynn-case-dropped.html

Of course Barr is Trump's stooge always has been, Barr should be thrown in jail himself and be banned from practicing law or having any position to do with it or justice.  Trump can pardon whoever he wants as well.  Again the presidency not being abused to hell depends on having people with at least a tiny bit of decency, but there is no safeguard when you have 100% scumbag in office.  

 

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Trump definitely won't get blown out.  Remember that Fox and the rest of the massive right wing machine won't ever ever turn on him.

I posted evidence that they had, recently. Now that places like Ohio are opening up, and places like NYC are getting better (but much of the rest of the country is getting worse)... we're gonna see more. Poorer people can't pay their rent because of the lack of relief, for one thing.

Besides, part of it is not the GOP death cult they're attempting to cultivate. Part of the reason Clinton lost was because...  people didn't fucking vote. People decided to vote for anti-vaxx Jill Stein or Gary "Aleppo?" Johnson because, well, they didn't want to soil their precious clean hands with voting for Clinton over Trump! And a bunch of good that did us. That, alone, will allow for blowouts -- people showing up to actually fucking vote! People in spite of clear danger in Wisconsin and massively for a Democrat, and the Dems have the house (and might win even more seats!). It's not at all out of the realm of possibility.

I have my doubts people will take this election for granted. GOP death cult propaganda doesn't work on moderates or people who no longer care about making a point. There's still some obstinate Bernie-or-busters out there trying to shit in the well.

Edited by Lord Raven
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1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Besides, part of it is not the GOP death cult they're attempting to cultivate. Part of the reason Clinton lost was because...  people didn't fucking vote. People decided to vote for anti-vaxx Jill Stein or Gary "Aleppo?" Johnson because, well, they didn't want to soil their precious clean hands with voting for Clinton over Trump! And a bunch of good that did us. That, alone, will allow for blowouts -- people showing up to actually fucking vote! People in spite of clear danger in Wisconsin and massively for a Democrat, and the Dems have the house (and might win even more seats!). It's not at all out of the realm of possibility.

Two things wrong with this:

1. Certain places were going to go to a certain candidate, full stop.  I lived in one of those places, hence why I went third-party.
2. I think what will prevent people from voting is the questionable state of mail-in ballots in places which are heavily red.  It's like that for a reason.  It will also depend on people being healthy enough to vote.

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19 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

So with everyone distracted by Corona the Trump administration quickly decided to shield one of their cronies from justice. The case against former security advisor Flynn is officially dropped. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/us/politics/michael-flynn-case-dropped.html

Since Flynn pleaded guilty, I believe they need the consent of the court. 

Like with what happened to Roger Stone, I'm still expecting Flynn to serve time in prison, but way less than he's due.

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16 hours ago, eclipse said:

Two things wrong with this:

1. Certain places were going to go to a certain candidate, full stop.  I lived in one of those places, hence why I went third-party.
2. I think what will prevent people from voting is the questionable state of mail-in ballots in places which are heavily red.  It's like that for a reason.  It will also depend on people being healthy enough to vote.

1. I think McConnell has a chance of losing Kentucky if things go as they currently are. Just because it has a chance of going a certain candidate full-stop doesn't mean it will.

Michigan and Pennsylvania were two such states last election. People stayed at home. They flipped. Michigan was historically an extremely strong democratic stronghold since 1992, and Democrats routinely won by 10-15 points. But it went Trump. People stayed home or voted third party. Right now Texas is very purple, when it's been historically red. Doug Jones won Alabama over Roy Moore, despite a united front on the Republican side. Full stop is exaggerated, especially given your point #2.

I'm also saying this is not the election to take for granted. As we speak Trump is trying to pardon his cronies without taking the brunt of the blame.

2. Yes. That's an extra reason why everyone who is capable needs to vote against the Republicans, because we don't know who will be able to vote and who will be able to send mail in. If you're capable of voting, you have to carry the load.

EDIT: 

 

If you can vote and you disapprove of the way Trump is handling covid, then the only choice is to vote for Biden. There's nothing you can take for granted in this election.

Edited by Lord Raven
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/weve-got-some-early-trump-vs-biden-swing-state-polling/

Really the only thing that matters is these purple states.  It doesn't matter if blue states win by a larger majority, or red states are closer than previously.  Anyways this polls show how fragile Biden's lead is and how easily it can swing back to electoral advantage for Trump.  

Then you got what RNC/Trump are trying to do in the pandemic making it much harder to vote.  More people voting favors Democrats of course.  Voter fraud?  Most that has been found has been done by Republicans.  

This election is going to be close and ugly.  The backlash will be very ugly and likely violent.  This is what happens with a person like Trump in power.  

Oh and Trump and White house has blocked CDC instructions for reopening that was planned to be released to states.  

Ahmaud Arbery lynching.  Citizens shouldn't be allowed to make arrests at all, anywhere.  No wonder groups like Antifa arise.  If the police aren't going to do anything then someone has to take out these scumbags.  Why is George Zimmerman still alive even?

 

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4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/weve-got-some-early-trump-vs-biden-swing-state-polling/

Really the only thing that matters is these purple states.  It doesn't matter if blue states win by a larger majority, or red states are closer than previously.  Anyways this polls show how fragile Biden's lead is and how easily it can swing back to electoral advantage for Trump.  

Then you got what RNC/Trump are trying to do in the pandemic making it much harder to vote.  More people voting favors Democrats of course.  Voter fraud?  Most that has been found has been done by Republicans.  

This election is going to be close and ugly.  The backlash will be very ugly and likely violent.  This is what happens with a person like Trump in power.  

Didn't you just demonstrate your own argument for why everyone should vote, regardless of whether or not they're in purple/red/blue states?

I brought up Michigan last election, a safe blue state not unlike Washington state. That's all the more reason to vote affirmatively, not vote for a third party.

If you can vote, you don't vote third party this election. Simply because of what I just bolded.

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10 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

1. I think McConnell has a chance of losing Kentucky if things go as they currently are. Just because it has a chance of going a certain candidate full-stop doesn't mean it will.

Michigan and Pennsylvania were two such states last election. People stayed at home. They flipped. Michigan was historically an extremely strong democratic stronghold since 1992, and Democrats routinely won by 10-15 points. But it went Trump. People stayed home or voted third party. Right now Texas is very purple, when it's been historically red. Doug Jones won Alabama over Roy Moore, despite a united front on the Republican side. Full stop is exaggerated, especially given your point #2.

I'm also saying this is not the election to take for granted. As we speak Trump is trying to pardon his cronies without taking the brunt of the blame.

2. Yes. That's an extra reason why everyone who is capable needs to vote against the Republicans, because we don't know who will be able to vote and who will be able to send mail in. If you're capable of voting, you have to carry the load.

I don't think you fully grasp the situation in Hawaii.  As long as the really racist/conservative population is behind Trump, I doubt we're moving from Biden.  Trump is loud, arrogant, and white - the "loud" and "arrogant" reinforce a negative stereotype.  Given how Hawaii handled the pandemic so far, I think the number of people that approve of Trump's methods are extremely low.

Check the polling numbers from the 2016 election, and tell me which state had the highest percentage of people voting Democrat.

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Well Barr is right on one thing. How this will be judged depends on who will win and write the history books.

However its not Barr's side who will win out from a historical perspective. Histories aren't written by demagogues and they very rarely, if ever get depicted in a positive manner. If you combine that with the lasting damage Trump will inflict then you can be guaranteed that the history books will be deeply critical of this presidency.

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“Elected by the biggest loss in the history of the popular vote. First president to never achieve a net-positive approval rating. Administration marred by high turnover, multiple criminal convictions of top aides and associates, and suspicion of  having colluded with hostile foreign actors to attain office by illicit means. Impeached in his first term.”

-The History Books in 2090, on Donald Trump-

 

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1 hour ago, Excellen Browning said:

"worse than Bush Jr and Jackson"

I guess that's a matter of perspective, though we should keep in mind that the modern Republican party having produced two presidents that will permanently remain in the bottom five is deeply unflattering for that party. Bush vs Trump isn't a comparison that does the Republican party any favors. 

With Bush vs Trump it somewhat depends on whether you find incompetence or sheer malice more damning and even if we say Bush was more damaging in his incompetence then Trump's own competence remains extremely dubious. With Bush we can argue that the consequences of his actions came about by mistakes, with Trump the negative consequences of his actions are by design. Its also rather doubtful that Trump would have reacted any better to 9/11. The question of their legacy also depends on how much Trump damages American institution and democracy. If overt political corruption, cronyism,  demagoguery, and a distaste for democracy remain damaging political staples after Trump leaves then he could very well be argued to have done more harm in the long term then Bush. If things return to normalcy after Trump then Bush might have the more damning legacy after all. 

Trump vs Jackson is a comparison that's mostly a wasted effort since they are from the same cloth. Trump is bad in ways that were also present in Jackson and vice versa. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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Trump is the fidelity of Bill Clinton.

The petty, mean-spirited vindictiveness of Hillary.

The ineptitude of a man elevated to a station beyond his ability because he was his father’s son of Bush Jr.

The criminality of Richard Nixon.

The racism of Woodrow Wilson.

And the crisis management of Herbert Hoover.

But without any of their redeeming qualities.

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Trump is a call to reform the American election system.  The fact that he was elected despite the popular vote is telling.  Given his popularity ratings, it's even more apparent.

Edited by eclipse
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33 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Trump is a call to reform the American election system.  The fact that he was elected despite the popular vote is telling.  Given his popularity ratings, it's even more apparent.

That won't happen if the Republicans remain a major party.   They have no interest in doing something that hurts their chances of winning regardless of whatever unsavory method/tactic.

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Trump is the fidelity of Bill Clinton.

The petty, mean-spirited vindictiveness of Hillary.

The ineptitude of a man elevated to a station beyond his ability because he was his father’s son of Bush Jr.

The criminality of Richard Nixon.

The racism of Woodrow Wilson.

And the crisis management of Herbert Hoover.

But without any of their redeeming qualities.

Well he is comedy gold for other comedians.  If he wasn't so cartoonish and childish we wouldn't even get the joy of laughing at him.

I think history will not only frown on Trump but show him as a representative of a large ugly underbelly of America rooted in bigotry, greed, selfishness, and ignorance of science.  

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The low effort answer to "why don't we ditch the electoral college?" was always "Because it would be an election between two celebrities". Well the reality tv host did win despite the electors supposedly having been charged to prevent that, so I guess that line of thinking was bunk after all. Leaving up your presidential election to a few hundred unknown "guys who know best" just doesn't protect us against anything.

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17 hours ago, eclipse said:

I don't think you fully grasp the situation in Hawaii.  As long as the really racist/conservative population is behind Trump, I doubt we're moving from Biden.  Trump is loud, arrogant, and white - the "loud" and "arrogant" reinforce a negative stereotype.  Given how Hawaii handled the pandemic so far, I think the number of people that approve of Trump's methods are extremely low.

Check the polling numbers from the 2016 election, and tell me which state had the highest percentage of people voting Democrat.

I'm vote in Maryland. Your situation is extremely similar to mine, given I vote in one of the few states gerrymandered towards the Democrats. Our Republican Governor is a classical liberal who shits on Trump every chance he gets, to the applause of our citizenry. My parents' county, which again I vote in, had 310k voters and 10m of them went towards Trump and a staggering 295m went towards Clinton.

This doesn't mean I'm going to put in a meaningless third party protest vote during what is perhaps the most important election of our lifetime to date. This isn't just a referendum, this is saving our country from crooks who are letting a disease spread with zero aid to the citizens so they can win a fuckin election and allow their cuntish cronies to continue to prosper. The evil of Trump is above and beyond anything you can imagine.

Third party protest votes seem to come from people who refused to participate in any primary.

2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Well he is comedy gold for other comedians.  If he wasn't so cartoonish and childish we wouldn't even get the joy of laughing at him.

I think history will not only frown on Trump but show him as a representative of a large ugly underbelly of America rooted in bigotry, greed, selfishness, and ignorance of science.  

He is not comedy gold for other comedians anymore. The jokes are repetitive as fuck, and it's hard to satirize someone who's so blatantly corrupt.

History will mercilessly destroy the Republican Party of the last 15 years. They will destroy the Tea Party movement. They will destroy George Wallace and Trump. The exact same as we treat the kings of old and fascists like Mussolini. There is nothing about the last four years -- arguably, 8 years -- that have been normal or okay. There is no ideology in our executive branch, and there never has been one for the entire four years. It's just people willing to let their opponents die so they can profit off of it as much as they can, and enablers who feel the same way.

2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The low effort answer to "why don't we ditch the electoral college?" was always "Because it would be an election between two celebrities". Well the reality tv host did win despite the electors supposedly having been charged to prevent that, so I guess that line of thinking was bunk after all. Leaving up your presidential election to a few hundred unknown "guys who know best" just doesn't protect us against anything.

The electoral college is a load of bullshit that doesn't represent the modern day anymore. I was browsing the 1860 election and Lincoln got a plurality of the popular vote but a majority of the electoral college, so back then I could see its merits, and back when the state legislatures submitted the electoral votes I could see its merits... In the modern day, it is functionally useless because the presidency is a representative of the American people. If people want to prevent popular states from getting too powerful, they have proportional representation in the house and they have control of 2% of an entire chamber of congress with zero population proportion.

The popular vote just shifts the power from swing states to city centers.

Edited by Lord Raven
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9 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

I'm vote in Maryland. Your situation is extremely similar to mine, given I vote in one of the few states gerrymandered towards the Democrats. Our Republican Governor is a classical liberal who shits on Trump every chance he gets, to the applause of our citizenry. My parents' county, which again I vote in, had 310k voters and 10m of them went towards Trump and a staggering 295m went towards Clinton.

This doesn't mean I'm going to put in a meaningless third party protest vote during what is perhaps the most important election of our lifetime to date. This isn't just a referendum, this is saving our country from crooks who are letting a disease spread with zero aid to the citizens so they can win a fuckin election and allow their cuntish cronies to continue to prosper. The evil of Trump is above and beyond anything you can imagine.

Third party protest votes seem to come from people who refused to participate in any primary.

If that's your mentality, then you don't really realize what that "protest vote" means.  It doesn't matter if your state has 50%+1 votes for candidate X or 90%, their electoral votes should go to candidate X.  That's why dogpiling after a certain point is a waste of a vote, while what looks like a protest vote isn't.  It's a reminder that there SHOULD be more options, so this kind of debacle doesn't happen again.

If you're that arsed about voting in general, shout towards a change in the entire election system.  I, for one, wouldn't be averse to ranked voting.

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35 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If that's your mentality, then you don't really realize what that "protest vote" means.  It doesn't matter if your state has 50%+1 votes for candidate X or 90%, their electoral votes should go to candidate X.  That's why dogpiling after a certain point is a waste of a vote, while what looks like a protest vote isn't.  It's a reminder that there SHOULD be more options, so this kind of debacle doesn't happen again.

Not the right time to make a protest vote. That's the point I'm getting at.

Four years ago, sure (even then, not really). 8 years ago? Most definitely alright! Right now? No, because no matter what third party votes help the more unified party (which the Democrats, in any given state, will never be) and the party that has more to gain from a non-vote. The party that is currently sitting on their hands about aid (the other one is actively not) as well as enabling the president to continue to sit on his hands.

It basically also means that parties will continue to encourage the use of voter suppression tactics to make these things... less possible as time goes on.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Not the right time to make a protest vote. That's the point I'm getting at.

Four years ago, sure (even then, not really). 8 years ago? Most definitely alright! Right now? No, because no matter what third party votes help the more unified party (which the Democrats, in any given state, will never be) and the party that has more to gain from a non-vote. The party that is currently sitting on their hands about aid (the other one is actively not) as well as enabling the president to continue to sit on his hands.

It basically also means that parties will continue to encourage the use of voter suppression tactics to make these things... less possible as time goes on.

So explain how a third-party vote hinders a state that is almost certainly going to go Democrat?  You can be scared that my state will flip.  I'm positive that it won't.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

So explain how a third-party vote hinders a state that is almost certainly going to go Democrat?  You can be scared that my state will flip.  I'm positive that it won't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_elections_in_Michigan

Michigan was almost certainly gonna go Democrat. It happens. Best not to ensure it won't happen.

Voting third party won't send the message. In fact, last time a third party did get a significant fraction of votes, they basically stopped allowing them into debates. You surely know of Ross Perot, don't you?

As for why I have to explain it to you more -- I did, I advise you read my points again. But to summarize, anything can happen and they're actively trying to oppress votes federally. You are aware people followed similar logic for Brexit and it came to pass right?

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20 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_elections_in_Michigan

Michigan was almost certainly gonna go Democrat. It happens. Best not to ensure it won't happen.

Voting third party won't send the message. In fact, last time a third party did get a significant fraction of votes, they basically stopped allowing them into debates. You surely know of Ross Perot, don't you?

As for why I have to explain it to you more -- I did, I advise you read my points again. But to summarize, anything can happen and they're actively trying to oppress votes federally. You are aware people followed similar logic for Brexit and it came to pass right?

Do you honestly think that 30% of Hawaii is going to decide to follow my logic?  Because that's literally what it would take for a shift from Democrat.

I know my demographic far better than you, on the basis of living here.  Notice how I'm NOT telling you how to vote?  That's because I don't know Maryland's culture or political climate, nor will I pretend to.  I strongly suggest not doing the same to anyone else.  I'll apologize if Hawaii's anything but blue, but I doubt I'm going to have to do this.  I'm still going to vote, as much as the second wave will let me.

If it makes you feel better, the conservative base is also worried.  But I think they have a good reason for it.

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