General US Politics

[Dragoncat]

1 minute ago, Clear World said:

It's probably because you're still on this page.

And while you are, yes, people on both sides can do terrible things, but maybe you should really look into what they are fighting for before instantly saying they are equal.

One on wants equality from decade of depressions and mistreatment. 

The other seemingly believes in a lie. 

People are way more lenient for causes that seems more just.

This is the fairest point I've been told. I realize how it looked like I said "both sides are equal".

I have learned that I'm really too soft for this kind of thing. Nazis and the idiots who did this are absolutely not equal to you and me. Republican lawmakers who reject change...yeah, I can see the annoyance at them and agree with it. I was very disappointed in my home state of Wyoming for having so many lawmakers who voted against the election. I get it.

It's really hard to find the right words to say things without looking like a massive idiot.

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Notification settings under 'Options'

That seems to be forumwide and no way to say one topic.

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I understand what you are trying to say, that we should not condemn everyone. Which there is a good point here.

However, let me provide a little history lesson.:

• Back in the 1950s, the United States feared Communism as its great radical political threat. We didn't fear Nazis back then, we didn't fear radical Islamic terrorists with suicide vests. Why?
• For the Nazis, they had been defeated during WWII, the threat they posed was buried. For radical Islamists, they hadn't arisen yet as the threat, it wasn't until the late 1970s that they entered the world stage.
• The Soviet Union collapses in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Communist ceases to be a major threat.
• In 2001, 9/11 happens, the Islamic terrorist threat that had emerged back in 1970s now proved themselves a real threat to the United States itself, not just its embassy over in Iran.

The tides of political extremism change, not all groups are equally powerful at once when you examine the reputable evidence. Communism was once a threat, it fell, Nazism was once a threat to America, but then it fell. Yet the radical non-Islamic right in America has resurrected, and it has been gaining strength at a greater pace than the far left.

One day, the radical left might be the biggest threat again, but it is not at this time.

It's A Point, but it also misses the point.  The Republican party has been in lockstep for a very long time, which tells me they value party loyalty over trivial things like following the rules of the land.  Where was the outcry from the other Republicans when the impeachment vote came around?  COVID?  The post office being dismantled?  Trump NOT telling the white supremacists to get lost early-on?  Basically Trump's entire presidency?

Some people need a bit more to break than others, but there's been a ton of breaking points between the start of the pandemic and now.  Never mind the company you're keeping, which is a lot of people whose civics ethics are stuck in the Civil War.  Over all these months, the Republican party didn't change for the better. . .so why hang on to something that doesn't support their beliefs?

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, Dragoncat said:

That seems to be forumwide and no way to say one topic.

Well, yes, you might have to make that concession.

But they'll probably stop quoting you soon anyway, if you're leaving the topic.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

It's A Point, but it also misses the point.  The Republican party has been in lockstep for a very long time, which tells me they value party loyalty over trivial things like following the rules of the land.  Where was the outcry from the other Republicans when the impeachment vote came around?  COVID?  The post office being dismantled?  Trump NOT telling the white supremacists to get lost early-on?  Basically Trump's entire presidency?

Some people need a bit more to break than others, but there's been a ton of breaking points between the start of the pandemic and now.  Never mind the company you're keeping, which is a lot of people whose civics ethics are stuck in the Civil War.  Over all these months, the Republican party didn't change for the better. . .so why hang on to something that doesn't support their beliefs?

I agree with what you're saying, remember me posting prolifically here on election night, I know this stuff and have spent night without sleep because of it. It's right, just not what I was going for.

What I was trying to do is disprove "bad people on both sides"- as if there is an equal number with equal power of bad people on both sides- in a slightly more nuanced way. ANTIFA exists, true, but its conspiracy theories aren't the ones indoctrinating significant numbers of Americans in the present moment. I was conceding we do have to monitor them in case their conspiracies grow in potency one day. But if we have limited resources for monitoring and combating radicalism that threatens America, right now, the greatly overwhelming majority should go to stopping the far right.

I saw someone who doesn't like politics because of the polarization and anger and such that it generates. And I was trying to approach them with an informed, gentle answer to some of their misunderstandings. In hopes it would be more effective as opposed to making them feel like they're a clay pigeon in quick draw contest. I picked the misunderstandings I thought I could best answer, I'm not always capable of eloquence or displaying the greatest intellect.

[Tryhard]

28 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The tides of political extremism change, not all groups are equally powerful at once when you examine the reputable evidence. Communism was once a threat, it fell, Nazism was once a threat to America, but then it fell. Yet the radical non-Islamic right in America has resurrected, and it has been gaining strength at a greater pace than the far left.

One day, the radical left might be the biggest threat again, but it is not at this time.

Even if you were to look at America, more instances of political violence were from anarchist and black separatist groups in the 60s and 70s... which is expected because it was around the civil rights era. It just happens that it isn't so much the case anymore.

(not to mention the drop off in number of attacks, as bad as it seems in the modern world - I'm not sure how "single issue" is defined but it's likely things like abortion clinic attacks)

Edited January 8, 2021 by Tryhard

[Crysta]

The violent leftwing movements of the 1970's were never given the platform the violent rightwing movement gets today. Rittenhouse has been made a rightwing hero. I really can't think of anything remotely comparable to them in our history, let alone now.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Crysta

[Tryhard]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The violent leftwing movements of the 1970's were never given the platform the violent rightwing movement gets today. Rittenhouse has been made a rightwing hero. I really can't think of anything remotely comparable to them in our history, let alone now.

It does seem as though they are being amplified and in some cases even encouraged in a unprecedented way in recent times.

It's also worth looking at the fatality rates for these attacks as well. Obviously 9/11 is the outlier in this case. And this study only goes up to 2016.

Quite interesting, though. https://start.umd.edu/pubs/START_IdeologicalMotivationsOfTerrorismInUS_Nov2017.pdf

Edited January 8, 2021 by Tryhard

[Interdimensional Observer]

14 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Even if you were to look at America, more instances of political violence were from anarchist and black separatist groups in the 60s and 70s... which is expected because it was around the civil rights era. It just happens that it isn't so much the case anymore.

(not to mention the drop off in number of attacks, as bad as it seems in the modern world)

True, my history example was flawed, I was trying to keep it simple and digestible for a mass audience. And admittedly modern radical moments isn't my historical specialty (that would be... whatever my eventual job asks of me). Although I think I still had a point.

And thank you for this enlightening graph! I will keep it in mind from here on out.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[Crysta]

Just now, Tryhard said:

It does seem as though they are being amplified and in some cases even encouraged in a unprecedented way in recent times.

the internet was a mistake

[eclipse]

45 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I agree with what you're saying, remember me posting prolifically here on election night, I know this stuff and have spent night without sleep because of it. It's right, just not what I was going for.

What I was trying to do is disprove "bad people on both sides"- as if there is an equal number with equal power of bad people on both sides- in a slightly more nuanced way. ANTIFA exists, true, but its conspiracy theories aren't the ones indoctrinating significant numbers of Americans in the present moment. I was conceding we do have to monitor them in case their conspiracies grow in potency one day. But if we have limited resources for monitoring and combating radicalism that threatens America, right now, the greatly overwhelming majority should go to stopping the far right.

I saw someone who doesn't like politics because of the polarization and anger and such that it generates. And I was trying to approach them with an informed, gentle answer to some of their misunderstandings. In hopes it would be more effective as opposed to making them feel like they're a clay pigeon in quick draw contest. I picked the misunderstandings I thought I could best answer, I'm not always capable of eloquence or displaying the greatest intellect.

I'm all for compromise, as long as both parties are acting in good faith.  Republicans are not.  Therefore, they don't get the benefit of the doubt until they actively disavow and purge the bad elements, and truly work towards a better country for all.

30 minutes ago, Crysta said:

the internet was a mistake

The fact that those videos have more than a million views is sickening.

[Crysta]

7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The fact that those videos have more than a million views is sickening.

Unfortunately, he's a small fish in a big pond.

This guy has 1+ million subscribers

right wing civil war 2 cosplay is a thriving market

who could have thought it'd lead to something like this!?

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The fact that those videos have more than a million views is sickening.

Still several dozens times less than the number of people who voted for Trump.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

53 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

EDIT: @Dr. Tarrasque, I get what you're saying. I really do. And yet, Dragoncat seems to be coming from an area where she is not fully informed on the matters and is reacting on gut instinct, an emotional reaction more than logic. Coming into a discussion uninformed like that is not going to do her any favors. Better for her to know that now, or people will dog pile on her for not doing research and speaking only from emotion.

Yes and that's the problem. MOST people who end up defending Republicans on this thread aren't fully aware of what's going on and are often folks seeing the same rigged system that we do but they'll end up easily being turned into supporting Republicans because humans aren't exactly rational creatures, they're more likely to make decisions based on their feelings and in this particular case y'all come off as bullies dogpiling on one ignorant individual.

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

You really don't have to defend the person who voluntarily compared BLM to yesterday's insurrectionists.

You really, really don't.

I don't fucking care to defend anyone here. I knew the moment that person made their first post here that they would just wish they hadn't and leave. You can kick and scream all you want about how the Republican party gets off the hook so easily and how much the Democrats get sandbagged by the media and I agree with you on that but here's the sad reality: that is the world we live in and the right-wing has made a habit of picking up people who feel attacked by folks supportive of the left or Democrats. It sucks but you need to deal with it, adapt and change your approach if you ever wish to get people to see your side of things and that includes conceding when the left and the Democrats are doing something stupid otherwise you only make the shitty and false "both sides" narrative work that much easier to the apathetic and ignorant showing the slightest bit of interest in understanding US politics.

If you want to educate people on the reality of the 2 parties, you need to play around how easy it is for the right-wing to win them over to their side if the individual feels alienated/attacked by you. Yes, there are Republican voters who are straight up scumbags, white supremacists and indoctrinated by Confederate friendly teachings but there's also ones that are just plain ignorant to the matter and may on occasion be willing to listen. Case in point: apparently that person voted for Biden and you gave the impression that you assumed she voted for Trump and may be an ardent Trump supporter. You lost here.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I'm not going to support "both sides" after supporters of one party laid a potential opening act to a civil war.  I don't care which side the "both sides" are coming from - the sides are clearly not equal.  To state otherwise is dishonest.

I've shit on the media in this thread for their habit of playing the "both sides" card all the damn time, you'll never catch me saying Republicans of this time are better than Democrats and of the deaths that occurred yesterday, I would've preferred it for those deaths to have happened to the likes of Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, Trump, Mitch McConnell.

However, y'all need to realize that it has become a trigger word for you guys because you are actually informed and your knee-jerk reaction is to respond with a sense of righteous entitlement because you actually follow what's going on and if you want your truth to be seen, you've got to adapt and learn to talk to those that are ignorant better otherwise the truth that they'll see will be the bullshit the right-wing spews.

[Tryhard]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Unfortunately, he's a small fish in a big pond.

This guy has 1+ million subscribers

right wing civil war 2 cosplay is a thriving market

who could have thought it'd lead to something like this!?

tim pool is obsessed with the idea of civil war for some reason, while still maintaining that he is somehow a "disillusioned leftist" that believes trump would sweep 49 states in the last election

yeah, he's the most subscribed political commentator on youtube. big brain.

[Clear World]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I saw someone who doesn't like politics because of the polarization and anger and such that it generates. And I was trying to approach them with an informed, gentle answer to some of their misunderstandings. In hopes it would be more effective as opposed to making them feel like they're a clay pigeon in quick draw contest. I picked the misunderstandings I thought I could best answer, I'm not always capable of eloquence or displaying the greatest intellect.

Hah. Funny. That's what I was trying to do.... saying that...

3 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I knew the moment that person made their first post here that they would just wish they hadn't and leave.

 ... I sort of feel bad because I am the one who sort of dragged his initial post back up.

 

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I've shit on the media in this thread for their habit of playing the "both sides" card all the damn time, you'll never catch me saying Republicans of this time are better than Democrats and of the deaths that occurred yesterday, I would've preferred it for those deaths to have happened to the likes of Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, Trump, Mitch McConnell.

However, y'all need to realize that it has become a trigger word for you guys because you are actually informed and your knee-jerk reaction is to respond with a sense of righteous entitlement because you actually follow what's going on and if you want your truth to be seen, you've got to adapt and learn to talk to those that are ignorant better otherwise the truth that they'll see will be the bullshit the right-wing spews.

You're assuming that they're here to have an honest discussion.  Someone else said that they identify as Republican earlier in the thread, and my response was quite different (it's here. . .somewhere in that mess of posts regarding yesterday's clusterfuck).  But someone who tries to equate both sides has somehow equated the both parties being equal, when a factual comparison shows otherwise.  In other words, they're trying to be neutral on the basis of a lie - and I don't take well to dishonesty.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just now, eclipse said:

You're assuming that they're here to have an honest discussion.  Someone else said that they identify as Republican earlier in the thread, and my response was quite different (it's here. . .somewhere in that mess of posts regarding yesterday's clusterfuck).  But someone who tries to equate both sides has somehow equated the both parties being equal, when a factual comparison shows otherwise.  In other words, they're trying to be neutral on the basis of a lie - and I don't take well to dishonesty.

Or perhaps It's ignorance created by all the misinformation put out by Trump and his followers. You're going to have people come in just to troll and you're going to have people that are just ignorant and are duped by the right-wing media, folks need to learn how to deal with the latter better.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Or perhaps It's ignorance created by all the misinformation put out by Trump and his followers. You're going to have people come in just to troll and you're going to have people that are just ignorant and are duped by the right-wing media, folks need to learn how to deal with the latter better.

Going the emotional route when presented with factual evidence tells me that the person is here to preach, not have an honest discussion.  I think at absolute best, it's a strong aversion to a good, hard look at their own beliefs.  I follow the path I do because it aligns with what I believe in.  If I felt that the path I walked on didn't, I wouldn't be walking on it.

[Crysta]

Just now, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Yes and that's the problem. MOST people who end up defending Republicans on this thread aren't fully aware of what's going on and are often folks seeing the same rigged system that we do but they'll end up easily being turned into supporting Republicans because humans aren't exactly rational creatures, they're more likely to make decisions based on their feelings and in this particular case y'all come off as bullies dogpiling on one ignorant individual.

Everyone else was pretty civil and I was the only one being abrasive and I think I wrote up a total of like four sentences telling them they weren't going to get away with the 100% predictable "but BLM lit a Target on fire!" talking point.

Cry me a river. I know people aren't rational human beings, but being too mean to them on an internet forum is not going to make me feel guilty.

5 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

You can kick and scream all you want about how the Republican party gets off the hook so easily and how much the Democrats get sandbagged by the media and I agree with you on that but here's the sad reality: that is the world we live in and the right-wing has made a habit of picking up people who feel attacked by folks supportive of the left or Democrats. It sucks but you need to deal with it, adapt and change your approach if you ever wish to get people to see your side of things and that includes conceding when the left and the Democrats are doing something stupid otherwise you only make the shitty and false "both sides" narrative work that much easier to the apathetic and ignorant showing the slightest bit of interest in understanding US politics.

It wasn't kicking or screaming. If you're really interested in a reasonable conversation yourself, stop exaggerating.

I'm not interested in reeling every right winger to my side, nor am I interested if me criticizing them is perceived as me confirming I really am as mean as they think lefties are. A significant portion of them also believe I'm a crazed socialist bent on destroying America because I voted for radical liberal Joseph R. Biden and, going out on a limb here, I don't think any amount of handling them with kid gloves is gonna change that!

You and others can put in the work if you want to.

11 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

If you want to educate people on the reality of the 2 parties, you need to play around how easy it is for the right-wing to win them over to their side if the individual feels alienated/attacked by you.

No. The right-wingers don't get to determine how I argue, particularly if their viewpoints are toxic enough to manifest in actual harm and the most I'm going to give them is an uncomfortable internet argument.

 

 

 

[Tryhard]

Not to dwell or anything, but in the nicest way I can describe, Dragoncat is on the spectrum from what she's said before and I don't think she was saying anything out of malice. I understand it is frustrating to hear that 'both sides are the same' spiel, even myself, but I've found that some impassive responses will bring people up to speed on the grievances with statements like that. Otherwise people like that just tend to shut down and not want to argue if they get dogpiled or abrasive replies.

But whatever. Is done.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just now, eclipse said:

Going the emotional route when presented with factual evidence tells me that the person is here to preach, not have an honest discussion.  I think at absolute best, it's a strong aversion to a good, hard look at their own beliefs.  I follow the path I do because it aligns with what I believe in.  If I felt that the path I walked on didn't, I wouldn't be walking on it.

Read up on the backfire effect. It is hard to accept but humans just don't respond well to facts as they should and it's unfortunately the norm lol.

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Everyone else was pretty civil and I was the only one being abrasive and I think I wrote up a total of like four sentences telling them they weren't going to get away with the 100% predictable "but BLM lit a Target on fire!" talking point.

Cry me a river. I know people aren't rational human beings, but being too mean to them on an internet forum is not going to make me feel guilty.

I don't care whether you feel guilty or don't. You and others are visibly upset about the false equivalency going on to which I'm also aware of and agree with you but the fact remains that if you wish someone wouldn't do that or you want to convince them otherwise, your approach was wrong. If you don't care, do as you will but don't expect things to change in that regard.

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It wasn't kicking or screaming. If you're really interested in a reasonable conversation yourself, stop exaggerating.

I wasn't being literal and it's in reference to the instances where you reply with "I HATE IT HERE". I jokingly labeled that as a kicking and screaming because I get it and I understand how frustrating it is.

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm not interested in reeling every right winger to my side, nor am I interested if me criticizing them is perceived as me confirming I really am as mean as they think lefties are. A significant portion of them also believe I'm a crazed socialist bent on destroying America because I voted for radical liberal Joseph R. Biden and, going out on a limb here, I don't think any amount of handling them with kid gloves is gonna change that!

You and others can put in the work if you want to.

Then do you acknowledge and accept that you hurt your cause?

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

No. The right-wingers don't get to determine how I argue, particularly if their viewpoints are toxic enough to manifest in actual harm and the most I'm going to give them is an uncomfortable internet argument.

Then it should cease being a surprise to you when the aforementioned false equivalency comes up.

[eclipse]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Read up on the backfire effect. It is hard to accept but humans just don't respond well to facts as they should and it's unfortunately the norm lol.

Effect or not, it's up to the person in question to change.  If they're going to blame external forces for NOT changing, that's a personal weakness.  Again, it's all too common.  But if I'm hard on the people I question. . .how much harder do you think I am on my own beliefs?

[Sunwoo]

Tarrasque, I can see your point and I understand where you're coming from. But, as someone who used to feel that way a couple of years ago, I don't think I believe in it anymore. I am too burned out by everything from the past few years to believe that if we can argue with these types of people in the correct way, that they'll somehow see the light.

At the very least, a person who decides to post in a thread where others already there are better-informed on the situation and armed with actual facts and has nothing to contribute other than emotion and wishy-washy "if only"s and unsubstantiated "the other side would do the same thing"s ... well, they REALLY shouldn't be posting in that thread to begin with. It's been made clear by mods on several occasions that serious discussion is not a place where people are going to coddle your feelings and if you don't have facts, you shouldn't be there. People should at the very least be able to make an educated guess as to whether they can handle that or not.

I don't post on SD very often because I don't have anything to contribute most of the time. But when I do, I realize that it's different than just posting about trivial opinions I have on FE and that if I'm trying to make a point, don't run only on emotions or be prepared for people to disagree with you if I do.

[Crysta]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

You and others are visibly upset about the false equivalency going on to which I'm also aware of and agree with you but the fact remains that if you wish someone wouldn't do that or you want to convince them otherwise, your approach was wrong. If you don't care, do as you will but don't expect things to change in that regard.

Don't worry, I temper my expectations of right wingers quite heavily. I was not disappointed or surprised.

22 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I wasn't being literal and it's in reference to the instances where you reply with "I HATE IT HERE". I jokingly labeled that as a kicking and screaming because I get it and I understand how frustrating it is.

That really didn't sound like 'joking' but a genuine characterization, but okay.

22 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Then do you acknowledge and accept that you hurt your cause?

Why are you assuming we have the same cause?

Furthermore, if it's your cause this is a very ineffective place to wage you campaign to inform the misguided but well-meaning right wingers and bring them to our column through grace, civility, and understanding. If you haven't noticed, most of us generally agree with each other, and it rarely gets that uncivil.

Of course, it's probably because most of the earlier conservative posters who'd proudly wade here have been banned. Apparently.

22 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Then it should cease being a surprise to you when the aforementioned false equivalency comes up.

Are you blaming me for the false equivalency existing because I choose to ridicule it? Because that may hurt the people who genuinely believe it? 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Crysta

[Clear World]

4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

But, as someone who used to feel that way a couple of years ago, I don't think I believe in it anymore. I am too burned out by everything from the past few years to believe that if we can argue with these types of people in the correct way, that they'll somehow see the light.

I don't think any one conversation will ever make them see the light, particular online, but I do believe that when a person attempts to consider the other side and is met with open contempt, and being outright called out for it, it does cause them to dig deeper into it and maybe even retreat further behind it. For all we know, Dragoncat could've been someone rather young.

Sadly, I kind of just wanted to have a conversation with the person. But you're probably right, this is not the place or time for such a conversation. Dragoncat did admit they would leave if pushed too hard.