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277 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      89
    • No
      114
    • Maybe
      74
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      49
    • No
      113
    • Indifferent
      44


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I know it's an actual philosophy, but it's a contradiction of terms. You can't have capitalism without a state apparatus that enforces private property laws and the labour-capital hierarchy. If anything, the state will just be replaced with private armies from the people who wield the most capital, which sounds like a psychotic dystopia.

I was going to type a long post about anarcho-communism, but this thread might not be the place to have that discussion.

Well yeah. That's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be no evil government so that the rich can control everything. I think it would end up as some form of industrialized feudalism but without the King.

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Yeah industrialized feudalism is what I had in mind. But I thought the intent here was some kind of decentralized free market utopia that the government is apparently standing in the way of.

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Yeah industrialized feudalism is what I had in mind. But I thought the intent here was some kind of decentralized free market utopia that the government is apparently standing in the way of.

To Anarcho-Capitalists they're the same thing, The competent get rich and anyone who isn't good enough, well, fuck them.

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Can this fucking election be over yet

Seriously. I'm not very good at following the facts and stances of the politicians on a normal basis, but what the actual fuck is this year? Is this an election or a complete shitshow? I can't take anything about this election seriously anymore.

Let's just get this over with so we can pretend this election year never happened

Edited by Sunwoo

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Can this fucking election be over yet

Seriously. I'm not very good at following the facts and stances of the politicians on a normal basis, but what the actual fuck is this year? Is this an election or a complete shitshow? I can't take anything about this election seriously anymore.

Let's just get this over with so we can pretend this election year never happened

Sadly that's not gonna happen, 'cause we'll be living with whoever wins for the next four years at least lol.

Probability is high that they get themselves impeached regardless of who wins though, so there's that.

Edited by Tangerine

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Can this fucking election be over yet

Seriously. I'm not very good at following the facts and stances of the politicians on a normal basis, but what the actual fuck is this year? Is this an election or a complete shitshow? I can't take anything about this election seriously anymore.

Let's just get this over with so we can pretend this election year never happened

Well, I don't think we will be able to forget it, because Trump supporters as a movement won't just vanish if Clinton wins. Edited by blah the Prussian

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That's actually the part that really bugs me about Trump's success - that there's so many people out there who support him not because of his competence as a politician [lol @ that one] but because they're racists, xenophobes and generally reject any progressive idea as "degenerate left". Trump surely satisfies the tendencies of these people even though I won't personally accuse him of being racist. And of course not all of Trump's supporters are like that, possibly not even the majority of them. But those people exist and they sure make a respectable bulk of Trump-supporters. That's something that cannot be denied. Even if Trump himself having such a high chance of becoming president doesn't seem like a problem to you then at least the amount of supporters that are ideologically equivalent to radical islamists should.

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That's actually the part that really bugs me about Trump's success - that there's so many people out there who support him not because of his competence as a politician [lol @ that one] but because they're racists, xenophobes and generally reject any progressive idea as "degenerate left". Trump surely satisfies the tendencies of these people even though I won't personally accuse him of being racist. And of course not all of Trump's supporters are like that, possibly not even the majority of them. But those people exist and they sure make a respectable bulk of Trump-supporters. That's something that cannot be denied. Even if Trump himself having such a high chance of becoming president doesn't seem like a problem to you then at least the amount of supporters that are ideologically equivalent to radical islamists should.

Oh, please, an ideological equivalence to radical islamists is taking it too far. The amount of people that are seriously interested in a "Western Civilization Global Empire" is negligible at best, to begin with, given that almost all supporters, particularly those that are not US citizens, think each country is better off on its own sovereignity.

Edited by tuvarkz

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I wouldn't put them in the same category of, say, global jihadism but they definitely want to turn back the clock like 50+ years particularly in regard to social issues.

Edited by Crysta

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to put this into perspective a little from polls:

87% of Trump supporters agree with a temporary ban of Muslims from entering the US, and 67% actively say they hate/dislike American Muslims.

87% of Trump supporters think Obama is a Muslim or are "not sure." (65% think outright)

77% of Trump supporters think Obama wasn't born in the US or are "not sure." (59% think outright)

1/3 of Trump supporters think the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II was a good idea.

47% of Trump supporters support banning homosexuals from entering the United States or are "not sure." (31% support outright)

30% of Trump supporters think whites are a superior race or are "not sure." (16% think outright)

20% of Trump supporters disagree with Lincoln’s signing of the Emancipation Proclamation

there have been various polls with varying degrees of these sorts of numbers but even the ballpark figures are alarming.

Can this fucking election be over yet

Seriously. I'm not very good at following the facts and stances of the politicians on a normal basis, but what the actual fuck is this year? Is this an election or a complete shitshow? I can't take anything about this election seriously anymore.

Let's just get this over with so we can pretend this election year never happened

i get the feeling that most view it as a shitshow for a reason. but it ain't over after the election either way. Edited by Tryhard

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Oh, please, an ideological equivalence to radical islamists is taking it too far. The amount of people that are seriously interested in a "Western Civilization Global Empire" is negligible at best, to begin with, given that almost all supporters, particularly those that are not US citizens, think each country is better off on its own sovereignity.

Perhaps we have different definitions of radical islamism then but in my eyes both sides have too much in common to not show some alarming parallels - ranging from scepticism to outright rejection towards equality matters [of gender, race, religion, homosexuality et cetera], questionable positions on freedom of speech that are unfit for a modern, democratic society, an inexplicable desire to view themselves as victims of some sort of conspiracy [by the west / israel / the jews et cetera in case of radical islamists; by the "left" / the "establishment" et cetera in case of Trump supporters], an affinity for authoritarian figures to an extent that has either literally [in islamist's case] or virtually [in Trump supporter's case] religious dimensions and an often displayed preference for fiction and conspiracy theories [ie: Obama's a muslim and not born in the USA] over facts.

You're also, sadly, very wrong regarding your second statement. The idea of a "Western [read: american] Civilization Global Empire" is pretty much the raison d'etat of the USA and has been for many, many decades. Why do you think that the USA had their fingers in so many conflicts that happen in the world? Where do you think the ideology of regime change that virtually every US-president has adhered to regardless of political affiliation has come from? The idea that the US should be the world's policeman and the only superpower allowed to exist is so prevalent in US society that it's nearly impossible for a candidate to openly speak up against what's been dominating the US foreign policies since at least WWII. That's why things like the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine as well as dictatorships like in Chile happen and will continue to do so - and all these things added up account for a much higher total number of dead people than jihadism. So if anything this puts the bulk of Trump supporters that subscribe to those ideas even closer to radical islam than I initially argued. How many are those? I have no idea. But even it were only 10% of them ... that'd still be a unsettlingly high amount.

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-Regarding equality matters-I'll concede that a significant amount of the alt-right holds such views, yet it is individual groups more than a single group that hates everything not white christian cis-male (and then the left seems to conveniently forget that equality means both sides' disadvantages need to be fixed and not just helping the 'oppressed groups'), particularly regarding the fact that the left has gone a bit too far when it comes to their so-yet-called 'equality'. Also, religion doesn't fit in there, it's not a natural-born category that cannot be changed but an ideology that one chooses to ascribe to. The fact that I do not like communists is because I think their ideology is a proven repeated failure that will never win against human nature (and a load of other arguments) and it does not make me bigoted, the fact that I do not like scientologists because their beliefs are outright lies that seem to have been invented for purely making money. The same can be applied to any other ideology or religion. (And I remember still some BLM chants back during some protests)

-Regarding freedom of speech, oh please. What are you going to accuse the alt-right of, of dogpiling and bullying those that disagree? This is more an inherent thing associated to how open communication in the internet goes, rather than a factional thing; given it goes both ways. Which does remind me that when someone is targetted by the left, it often ends with very real world consequences-See Tim Hunt for the biggest example of this happening.

-Conspiracy: Yes there are people that believe the whole conspiracy thing, yet the feminists keep being so obsessed with their so-called 'patriarchy', 'systemic racism', and 'rape culture' in the first world, when their own 'evidence' (given how a lot of it seems to be data misinterpretation or outright malicious misuse) isn't any better.

-Almost-religious worship for an authoritarian figure: Are you serious? Trump's statement on bathrooms caused a massive blowup within the alt-right, and a large majority still does not agree with Trump on that aspect. What are Trump's policies, oh a reduction of taxes and regulations? Yes, totally authoritarian. You can call him a masculine or alpha figure that is easy to follow, but hardly authoritarian. You want to bring up the Trump Emperor memes? Please, every single Imperium player in the 40k fanbase that doesn't have a stick so far up his ass knows that the Emperor himself is just as flawed as any other human and those flaws are part of what caused the Horus Heresy in the first place. Yet you cannot dispute some of feminism's latest beliefs or actions or BLM or whatever other similar group without immediately being labeled sexist/racist/etc and if someone goes beyond any possible defense 'not a real feminist/muslim/etc'.

You say 'nearly impossible for a candidate to openly speak up against'. Yet one of Trump's early messages was that the US could no longer permit itself to be the world's police, and his advocacy for other countries to have nuclear weapons and for a better relationship with Russia mean that the 'only superpower' theory is something that Trump does not stand for. And then, globalists do advocate for a single world government or something strongly approaching one.

Honestly, I could just as easily say that the radical 'progressives' are just or even more of an ideological equivalent to radical islamists than the alt-right is or ever will be.

Honestly, I could just as easily say that the radical 'progressives' are just or even more of an ideological equivalent to radical islamists.

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By the way tuvarkz, for as much as you talk about the alt-right, from what I've seen is there's at least a decent amount people calling themselves alt-right that like to self-identify as white nationalists, anti-semitic/jewish and fascists and would be perturbed by anyone suggesting otherwise, are those people wrong? Is this trolling? (doesn't seem like it to me considering it seems pretty consistent through the subreddit content.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/altright/comments/4zr372/to_the_new_subscribers_coming_from_rthe_donald/

Edited by Tryhard

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-Regarding equality matters-I'll concede that a significant amount of the alt-right holds such views, yet it is individual groups more than a single group that hates everything not white christian cis-male (and then the left seems to conveniently forget that equality means both sides' disadvantages need to be fixed and not just helping the 'oppressed groups'), particularly regarding the fact that the left has gone a bit too far when it comes to their so-yet-called 'equality'. Also, religion doesn't fit in there, it's not a natural-born category that cannot be changed but an ideology that one chooses to ascribe to. The fact that I do not like communists is because I think their ideology is a proven repeated failure that will never win against human nature (and a load of other arguments) and it does not make me bigoted, the fact that I do not like scientologists because their beliefs are outright lies that seem to have been invented for purely making money. The same can be applied to any other ideology or religion.

a) you were anti-BLM, yet you somehow use the "not all alt-right!" for the alt-right

b) you ascribe the same thing to religion

c) you compare scientology to islam, unless you're intentionally trying to be vague

??

-Regarding freedom of speech, oh please. What are you going to accuse the alt-right of, of dogpiling and bullying those that disagree? This is more an inherent thing associated to how open communication in the internet goes, rather than a factional thing; given it goes both ways. Which does remind me that when someone is targetted by the left, it often ends with very real world consequences-See Tim Hunt for the biggest example of this happening.

it's still quite troubling, especially because the movement basically expanded on 4chan and reddit - and those are the kinds of places prone to this kind of thing

keeping in mind this is the subreddit (the_donald) and the image board that basically did enough raiding of public polls to trick people into believe trump won the debate

-Conspiracy: Yes there are people that believe the whole conspiracy thing, yet the feminists keep being so obsessed with their so-called 'patriarchy', 'systemic racism', and 'rape culture' in the first world, when their own 'evidence' (given how a lot of it seems to be data misinterpretation or outright malicious misuse) isn't any better.

there is another thread for this; if you're going to criticize feminism go there. these two are completely unrelated.

-Almost-religious worship for an authoritarian figure: Are you serious? Trump's statement on bathrooms caused a massive blowup within the alt-right, and a large majority still does not agree with Trump on that aspect. What are Trump's policies, oh a reduction of taxes and regulations? Yes, totally authoritarian. You can call him a masculine or alpha figure that is easy to follow, but hardly authoritarian. You want to bring up the Trump Emperor memes? Please, every single Imperium player in the 40k fanbase that doesn't have a stick so far up his ass knows that the Emperor himself is just as flawed as any other human and those flaws are part of what caused the Horus Heresy in the first place. Yet you cannot dispute some of feminism's latest beliefs or actions or BLM or whatever other similar group without immediately being labeled sexist/racist/etc and if someone goes beyond any possible defense 'not a real feminist/muslim/etc'.

so like this sub exists and /pol/ exists

now, I brought this up in the past but your point about not being able to criticize BLM and islam and shit like that without being labeled a bigot/racist has everything to do with context. Life in the other thread (who has still not responded to my posts) tried to get across the point that a non-negligible number of muslim immigrants and refugees commit terror attacks. this is racist and bigoted. same with calling the entire BLM movement thugs instead of just a chapter.

Honestly, I could just as easily say that the radical 'progressives' are just or even more of an ideological equivalent to radical islamists than the alt-right is or ever will be.

then you would be wrong

Edited by Lord Raven

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@Tryhard: As I brought up pages ago when talking about what I saw the alt-right as, I did bring up that there were genuine white nationalists/white supremacists amongst the alt-right, and so are some fascists. (Although regarding anti-semitism, it's gotten a bit confusing about whether this is a meme everyone just keeps using given that it was a thing even back when /pol/ was left leaning when it was contrarian to be leftist or whether there's actual anti-semites in the mix)

@Lord Raven: Except that the BLM has manifesto, official founding, and each chapter has a rough organizational system. The same could be roughly said about most forms of organized religions. The alt-right has neither of these, it isn't even exactly clear who ascribed the name to the group. Sure, there are group actions as you brought up with the polls, but those things are more of a spur-of-the-moment things (given that the medium of action is the internet). My own description of what I see the alt-right as is just as biased as it is from my point of view (given a complete lack of proper ideology)

(Also @eggclipse, I did bring up feminism here instead of on the appropriate topic because it is tied to the current 'progressive' movement rather than to start a focused discussion on it).

I do abscribe the same thing to religion because religion is fundamentally also an ideology. Regarding scientology and islam, I'm being intentionally vague because there are more secular members of islam that are far from having an ideology that is incompatible with the west.

One of the reasons why I judge the entirety of the movement of a whole for the actions of some chapters is that I don't see the rest of the chapters actively condemning the violence and looting occurred in some of the protests and riots caused by the other chapters. Decentralized they may be, but they share a single name and have a single founding. (And there are even some who are actually defending the looting it seems)(Doesn't help either when one of the co-founders brings up Assata Shakur, a wanted criminal when talking about the founding of BLM) Yet the worst the alt-right has done is to hurt some feelings online and as you brought up, change some polls. And even some of the major figures in the Alt-Right, like Milo, have a strong group of detractors present.

Edited by tuvarkz

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Yet the worst the alt-right has done is to hurt some feelings online and as you brought up, change some polls.

yes because they have virtually zero power in anything on account of being an extremely new movement with racist rhetoric. even if they haven't done anything, it's entirely possible they could do something if they were given power and more of a mouthpiece to the Trump campaign, because having a president whose ideology vindicates them is an issue. "the worst they've done is hurt feelings" lol, are you one of those people that wants to say the n word because political correctness is a stain on the first amendment?

BLM doesn't have much power either, but because the alt-right movement is fundamentally an internet movement the focus is on social media. given some power, god knows what they'll do, but at this point you're talking about specific people that call themselves the alt-right, when in reality their views are perfectly in-line with a group of people who would do these extreme measures.

EDIT: the alt-right tends to dox people if i'm recalling right, they're basically a cyber bullying movement, which is pretty fucking bad all things considered. physical harm isn't the only type of harm possible.

besides the wiki article basically says that its shares a lot of ideologies with historically fascist/racist/bigoted ideologies. the ones that were behind quite a bit of violence. if you're denying this fact then you're just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming for trump.

One of the reasons why I judge the entirety of the movement of a whole for the actions of some chapters is that I don't see the rest of the chapters actively condemning the violence and looting occurred in some of the protests and riots caused by the other chapters.

http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/

http://fortune.com/2016/07/08/black-lives-matter-speaks-out-against-dallas-shooting/

i know others have shown you similar stories, and it's the same for islam (there's another thread about this). just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Edited by Lord Raven

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Just popping in to say one thing:

The King in the North!

The King in the North!!

THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!

You might think I'm joking, but this could influence the opinions of undecided voters in Ohio and get many Democratic voters who were planning on staying home to go to the polls. Lebron is basically God in Northeast Ohio.

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@Tryhard: As I brought up pages ago when talking about what I saw the alt-right as, I did bring up that there were genuine white nationalists/white supremacists amongst the alt-right, and so are some fascists. (Although regarding anti-semitism, it's gotten a bit confusing about whether this is a meme everyone just keeps using given that it was a thing even back when /pol/ was left leaning when it was contrarian to be leftist or whether there's actual anti-semites in the mix)

It's strange how you bring up this defense of 'well that's just a group of people in the alt-right' when you admonish other groups and defenses of them for taking the same view. It's not as if this is a group of people that are supporting anothers cause that happen to be white nationalists etc, like say the 16% of Trump supporters that believe whites are a superior race. I don't believe supporting Trump to be necessarily white nationalism, even if people like David Duke support him, and that's an essential difference. But when enough of a group (as in, almost everything I've been exposed to about them) say, "we are white nationalists and don't listen to anyone telling you otherwise", I'm inclined to believe that this is a major component of the group, especially since anecdotally all I've seen from the group is discussion about the "death of the white race in the west" and the fact that the "jews run everything" (links to such things as The International Jew and The Culture of Critique) when they are talked about or from places like that subreddit which are made specifically for the alt-right to discuss. They seem to hold it as a racial political movement as that subreddit described.

Honestly, I'd prefer if every alt-righter came out and said they were an white nationalist if that's what this is about. At least it would be easy to pinpoint. I mean, it's pretty obvious that they don't really expect people to take them seriously so I don't even know what the cloak is about.

Edited by Tryhard

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/pol/ isn't a subreddit, it's a 4chan board, which is even worse

I was more talking about the /r/altright subreddit I posted earlier but that too of course.

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how the fuck would that even work

which I imagine is why they laughed lol

(beyond the fact that it's dumb and unethical as fuck)

Edited by Crysta

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