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BLM was not taken seriously until the Ferguson effect.

Police are not celebrating his death, they are celebrating the fact that their fellow officer wasn't murdered by all the protesters that forced him into witness protection and relocation.

Why should we lionize Michael Brown?  He was doped up on marijuana, a robber, and charged a police officer like a bear when he being arrested.  We should lionize this behavior?  Michael Brown contributed literally nothing positive towards society during his life.

6 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Isn't that the point I was making?

Just cause you're making a point doesn't mean I disagree with it...

I've also stated that the issue with BLM is it's extremely disorganized.  

Edited by Lushen

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On 8/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, Lushen said:

Police are not celebrating his death, they are celebrating the fact that their fellow officer wasn't murdered by all the protesters that forced him into witness protection and relocation.

You said it was to mock the protesters, did you not?

On 8/4/2017 at 3:17 PM, Lushen said:

No, this is the police dep't rightfully mocking the fact that some BLM people want to have Michael Brown anniversary day.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, Lushen said:

Why should we lionize Michael Brown?  He was doped up on marijuana, a robber, and charged a police officer like a bear when he being arrested.  We should lionize this behavior?  Michael Brown contributed literally nothing positive towards society during his life.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/brown.asp

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/us/michael-brown-ferguson-police-shooting-video.html a robber? That's debunked

Doped up on marijuana? Who cares? Teenagers are doped up all the time and Shoblongoo has covered drugs already.

Regardless, I'm not saying he's the best symbol, but let's not pretend that his shooting did not have a massive impact on the movement. That's the point I'm making. I'm not sure why you're reading much more into this.

Edited by Lord Raven

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On 8/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, Lushen said:

Why should we lionize Michael Brown?  He was doped up on marijuana, a robber, and charged a police officer like a bear when he being arrested.  We should lionize this behavior?  Michael Brown contributed literally nothing positive towards society during his life.

why should we lionize him? valid question.

why are you vilifying him?

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12 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said:

why should we lionize him? valid question.

why are you vilifying him?


Michael Brown is admittedly not the best example.

And BLM has since rallied behind clearer examples of police officers going unpunished after blatant, on-camera misconduct resulting in needless deaths (Eric Garner and Tamir Rice come to mind).

Here's The noteworthy element of Ferguson that made the Michael Brown shooting such a volatile flash-point, and what Lushen is missing.

The problem in Ferguson (and this is a microcosm of a much broader problem nationwide) was that there was so much unpunished police misconduct being swept under the rug and such rampant distrust of law enforcement in affected communities, the police lacked credibility to establish their own narrative. So you have a case where:

  • An unarmed black teenager is shot dead by police.
  • The police put out a statement that said teenager attacked the officer and that the shooting was justified.
  • Eye-witnesses dispute the police account
  • The broader community says: We see this all the time. You arrest us. You beat us. You shoot at us. When we've done nothing wrong; but you make up a story that we lunged at you or made threatening movements, and you call your actions justified. We don't believe you They demand an investigation into police misconduct.
  •   The police investigate themselves and exonerate themselves of wrongdoing.
  • The broader community says: No. We don't accept this. We report police misconduct and excessive force all the time; all they ever do is rubber-stamp whatever the officer puts in a police report and say 'thats how it happened. Case closed.' They demand a federal investigation to get to the truth. 

    ...then the Feds come in....

To reiterate--we're at this point because there is absolutely ZERO trust in local law enforcement to conduct a legitimate investigation into alleged police misconduct or give an honest account of the underlying incident.   

...The Feds do their investigation...

And the Feds come to the conclusion: "...Well we can't say that the police officer acted without justification in this particular incident. But upon further investigation--the broader complaints that Ferguson PD engages in a pattern and practice of police misconduct including discrimination, unlawful stops and arrests, and excessive force. And the allegations that they routinely protect offending officers, while failing to punish officer's who use the badge and the gun to brutalize their communities or respond to citizen's complaints of police misconduct in any meaningful way. That's all absolutely true; this is a breach of public trust and violation of rights that must be remedied with corrective action.

And then FINALLY--after much rioting and protesting and national headlines--The City starts firing abusive officers and setting forth new training and disciplinary procedures, and the broader community starts seeing some meaningful reforms.

...and that was the beginning of a national conversation on policing...people looked at the reports coming out of Ferguson and started speaking up about what was going on in their on communities...

Rightfully so.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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On 8/4/2017 at 10:07 AM, Lushen said:

*snip*

So you're missing most of my point...

'Only' 90% of minorities speak English fluently is actually a pretty high percentage and doesn't explain why they aren't more proportionally represented in U.S. politics.

Of course the majority of the media is in English. I wasn't arguing for it to be otherwise. The problem occurs when you have U.S.ians saying 'speak English or get the fuck out of my country!' when English is not a native language of the U.S., when actual Native Americans have had their languages quashed and forbidden, and when it's a hypocritical behaviour given, like you say, that many U.S.ians speak nothing other than English. 

(Side note: As an English person from England whose native language is English, when a U.S. person criticizes my pronunciation/spelling, well... that's something).

Game of Thrones is fantasy. It might draw from European history but it wouldn't lose anything if the races were to be portrayed differently. There's also no reason why we can't have more adaptations of fantasy written by people of colour, or why we can't maintain a 'realistic' proportion of race *and* make a black person the protagonist. (For example, one of my favourite shows is Luther. Black protagonist, rest of the cast is mostly white, it's still 'proportionate' representation). Are you saying that white people need white protagonists in order to watch TV shows? For them to be successful? 

Maybe, just maybe, if we had more positive representations of minority characters in media, we'd see an overall shift in racial relations, plus better role models for youngsters. Especially as nearly half of babies now born in the U.S. are non-white, so while white people may currently make up the majority of the population, that is changing.

Also, none of your arguments back up the vast the majority of protagonists being male. 50.8 of the U.S. is female; what's the argument against better female representation?

Quote

The fact that she came so close means females stood just as much chance in the election as males.

LOL.

Quote

That doesn't mean people born after 1957 are to blame for what their parents did or suffered from.

Again, point missed. Things don't occur in a vacuum. People don't suddenly gain rights and suddenly everyone's attitude shifts. The very fact that there are still people who were alive during segregation and when interracial marriage was banned and when minorities didn't have voting rights who are alive today means that those attitudes still exist in many areas. And those racist people are parents and grandparents who still influence how their children and grandchildren think. Ruby Bridges is only 62 years old; MLK Jr, if he were still alive, would be younger than my grandparents.

On 8/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, Lushen said:

Michael Brown contributed literally nothing positive towards society during his life.

This is a really repugnant thing to say.

He was 18. Exactly what was an 18 year old supposed to have contributed towards society? Are we all being judged by our contributions to society now? Is that how we determine how someone has a right to live or die? I'm sure his friends and family have many positive memories of him; I'm sure he was of value to them.

It doesn't even matter if he did rob a store (although he didn't) - since when did a robbery confer the death sentence? There's this awful tendency to back up any police shooting with any minute example of wrongdoing in someone's life when the actual point is, we have a judicial system that isn't supposed to work that way. We're supposed to give people fair trials with a judge and jury. The police should be doing whatever they can NOT to kill suspects. Somehow they often succeed to keep a suspect alive when the suspect is white and armed (Dylann Roof, James Holmes, etc.). Only the U.S., amongst developed nations, has such an issue with police shootings.  

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2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

<snip>

No offense, but you weren't in Missouri were you?  I had to watch the local news talk about this everyday and this really is not how that happened.  

 

What really happened was, Michael Brown was shot.  Perhaps the black community was being mistreated in unrelated issues.  If they started peaceful protests demanding a federal investigation, fine, but that's now what happened.

The Ferguson community did not ask or even call for a federal investigation, people started rioting violently such as throwing molotov cocktails in shopping outlets and burning gas stations to the ground.  One man even threw a molotov into his own home and lit it on fire because he was disoriented by all the chaos and didn't know where he was throwing it.

People used the chaos to loot stores and threaten police.

Investigation went on outside of the 'protesters' who had no idea what was actually going on and could not reference anything from the investigation and did not know Michael Brown.

At this point, Michael Brown's family asked people to stop because they were giving him a bad name.

Investigators said no one would be charged for this indecent but maybe there were other cases of mistreatment.  Regardless, the Ferguson community was not paying attention to any of this.

By this point, the people in Ferguson had enough fun and settled down, but people from other states traveled long distance so they could join in on the protests.

People who had no idea WTF was going on from other states ended up making the majority of the protesters.

At this point, Michael Brown's family started encouraging the protests, despite what they had said earlier, likely because they were getting a lot of positive attention and quite a bit of money.

BLM exploded and caused chaos in many other states which directly caused the death of several police officers.

 

@Res Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  He was not shot unprovoked, witnesses claim half of his body was inside a police car beating the officer who shot him.  A robbery doesn't and did not warrant the death penalty, but reaching for an officer's gun does.

Edited by Lushen

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4 minutes ago, Lushen said:

What really happened was, Michael Brown was shot.  Perhaps the black community was being mistreated in unrelated issues.  If they started peaceful protests demanding a federal investigation, fine, but that's now what happened.

Do you honestly believe that there would have been any federal investigation or plan for corrective action if there had been no rioting and national headlines? Honestly???

I'm less bothered that there was a riot, and more bothered that a riot is what it took to bring the practices outlined in the Justice Department's report under federal scrutiny.

And no...this isn't isolated to Missouri...

There were nationwide calls for federal investigations of police departments after Ferguson. To which, in the absence of rioting and national headlines, the Justice Department was unresponsive.

...then Baltimore started rioting over the death of Freddy Grey in police custody
...then the Justice Department was finally moved to open an investigation into the Baltimore PD
...and then they found:

https://www.justice.gov/crt/file/883296/download

...and they found that this has all been going on since "at least the late 90s."

No one in a position of power for twenty (20) years could be bothered to do anything about it. Until there was a riot.

Riots are the voice of the unheard. When you actually stop and think about the meaning behind the words instead of just dismissing the people chanting them as thugs and malcontents, there is something profound about the statement: "No Justice. No peace."

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23 minutes ago, Lushen said:

 

@Res Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  He was not shot unprovoked, witnesses claim half of his body was inside a police car beating the officer who shot him.  A robbery doesn't and did not warrant the death penalty, but reaching for an officer's gun does.

Yes; I've read all about that. He was still ultimately killed when he was far away from the car. And again, police are often able to deescalate other situations, and this is almost solely a U.S. problem. 

1 minute ago, Shoblongoo said:

Riots are the voice of the unheard. When you actually stop and think about the meaning behind the words instead of just dismissing the people chanting them as thugs and malcontents, there is something profound about the statement: "No Justice. No peace."

Yes.

MLK Jr himself had a lot of things to say that don't exactly agree with current arguments...

 

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2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:


Michael Brown is admittedly not the best example.

And BLM has since rallied behind clearer examples of police officers going unpunished after blatant, on-camera misconduct resulting in needless deaths (Eric Garner and Tamir Rice come to mind).

sure he isn't the shining example, but that's missing the broader point.

this 18 yo young man is being vilified by some of the public because he made a few mistakes. my brother was actually not very much different from lushen's view of michael brown when he was 18. my brother isn't a waste of space, and i'm not saying that from an emotional point of view--people can change. people can grow. 18 is so young to pass a sort of judgement like that. 

michael brown is as good an example as most. lethal force was used when it shouldn't have been. on a person that, perhaps given time to grow, could have become a real member of society.

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People can't change when they're dead.  Whatever Michael Brown's potential was, he died as a man violently attacking a police officer and lionizing him will only encourage the same behavior.

Eh, at a certain point you just have to agree to disagree.  More important news, N. Korea's WMD program has reached an all time high. I'm telling you, N. Korea is more of a threat to the US than anything else.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/north-korea-now-making-missile-ready-nuclear-weapons-us-analysts-say/2017/08/08/e14b882a-7b6b-11e7-9d08-b79f191668ed_story.html?utm_term=.c4d94f5a8211

People like to excuse WW3 as a fantasy in the minds of conspiracy theorists, but keep in mind WW2 was only 72 years ago.  Though, I doubt Korea would rally enough people behind them, other countries like China rely off us way too much for trade.

Edited by Lushen

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1 hour ago, Lushen said:

People can't change when they're dead.  Whatever Michael Brown's potential was, he died as a man violently attacking a police officer and lionizing him will only encourage the same behavior.

Eh, at a certain point you just have to agree to disagree.  More important news, N. Korea's WMD program has reached an all time high. I'm telling you, N. Korea is more of a threat to the US than anything else.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/north-korea-now-making-missile-ready-nuclear-weapons-us-analysts-say/2017/08/08/e14b882a-7b6b-11e7-9d08-b79f191668ed_story.html?utm_term=.c4d94f5a8211

People like to excuse WW3 as a fantasy in the minds of conspiracy theorists, but keep in mind WW2 was only 72 years ago.  Though, I doubt Korea would rally enough people behind them, other countries like China rely off us way too much for trade.

'more important'? nk more of threat than anyone else? nk literally cannot strike us.

stop your fear mongering.

 

http://www.fallen.io/

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39 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

'more important'? nk more of threat than anyone else? nk literally cannot strike us.

stop your fear mongering.

 

http://www.fallen.io/

You do know how nukes work right?  Like...literally the existance of nukes in N Korea means they can strike us.  If you're referring to the range not being long enough to hit the US from Korea, I'll remind you the Japanesse bomb'd Pearl Harbor, one of our military bases first.  And N Korea has explicitly mentioned Guam.

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/nation-world/report-north-korea-making-missile-ready-nuclear-weapons/462814538

This is a bipartisan issue, I'm not fear mongering. 

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North Korea isn't a direct threat to the US, but it is still questionable if the situation will remain the same if their missile launchs improve enough to reach dangerously close to Japan, not because I think they'll magically learn how to fire at the US, but because of the global repercussions that might rise from it. Japan has demonstrated valid discontent with it, and China already told North Korea to control themselves (to no avail, since they fired another anyway).

I'm not saying it will be a big threat, but that it has the potential to become something troublesome as far as international relations are concerned (which doesn't mean much other than "stay vigilant and hope they don't screw the situation that much").

---

About Michael Brown (oh shit here we go again), I've read many versions (due to different political positions on the media), one which says the cop fired in self defense and another which says the cop fired after there was no threat. It is difficult for me to find out what really happened because the truth is distorted by each version. What I know is that vestiges were found in the car, so he did try to give the cop a beating inside his car, and that he was killed after he was out of the car. This doesn't say much. If anyone has better sources, I'm open.

That said, I disagree with the logic that violent protests and riots are valid because this logic borders Machiavellian "the end justify the means" thinking, which does not sustain itself rationally. It is not true that I may use any action in my disposal to reach the end I want, even if it is a noble goal. And if I give a moral pass to such an act, I am imperatively forced by my morals to also give a pass to other radical actions with questionable methods, as long as the goal is considered noble. tl;dr, the reasoning doesn't sustain in itself and is harmful, thus it must be reprimanded.

If anything, it had the opposite desired effect: It didn't make other people more sympathetic to the alleged police brutality and unfairness. It made protesters look like "violent thugs" without a cause other than taking opportunity of the chaos. It is not helping Michael Brown's side at all.

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23 minutes ago, Lushen said:

You do know how nukes work right?  Like...literally the existance of nukes in N Korea means they can strike us.  If you're referring to the range not being long enough to hit the US from Korea, I'll remind you the Japanesse bomb'd Pearl Harbor, one of our military bases first.  And N Korea has explicitly mentioned Guam.

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/nation-world/report-north-korea-making-missile-ready-nuclear-weapons/462814538

This is a bipartisan issue, I'm not fear mongering. 

they could, but even as backwards as North Korea is, they would know the repercussions. they would be crushed.

North Korea is more a threat to surrounding countries, specifically South Korea, as has been the issue for a long time. there can be no pre-emptive solution to the problem without North Korea turning an attack on Seoul, South Korea and resulting in a huge loss of life. They want this as a deterrent, because they know it's the only thing preventing the US from kicking down the door and toppling them.

Edited by Tryhard

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2 hours ago, Lushen said:

People can't change when they're dead.  Whatever Michael Brown's potential was, he died as a man violently attacking a police officer and lionizing him will only encourage the same behavior.

Lushen, did you read any of Shoblongoo's posts?

Genuine question. Furthermore, you said he was a "waste of space," but all 18 year olds are a "waste of space" if we're talking about contributions to society. That was Phoenix Wright's point.

At any rate, if NK sends a nuke anywhere in the world then that's the end of North Korea. It's the same old nuclear Mexican standoff.

They're not going to nuke South Korea and they're certainly not going to touch China due to the fact that they're allies. And they can't take South Korea on conventional war.

1 minute ago, Rapier said:

That said, I disagree with the logic that violent protests and riots are valid because this logic borders Machiavellian "the end justify the means" thinking, which does not sustain itself rationally. It is not true that I may use any action in my disposal to reach the end I want, even if it is a noble goal. And if I give a moral pass to such an act, I am imperatively forced by my morals to also give a pass to other radical actions with questionable methods, as long as the goal is considered noble. tl;dr, the reasoning doesn't sustain in itself and is harmful, thus it must be reprimanded.

If anything, it had the opposite desired effect: It didn't make other people more sympathetic to the alleged police brutality and unfairness. It made protesters look like "violent thugs" without a cause other than taking opportunity of the chaos. It is not helping Michael Brown's side at all.

It actually is a tool in favor in some ways, because riots spread awareness.

I know this is anecdotal, but the number of people that have asked me about the motivation of the Baltimore riots and the long history of corruption in Baltimore was astounding. It's something I've taken for granted but was not known on a nationwide scale.

Besides, in all cases of riots, there were peaceful protests otherwise ignored for weeks beforehand. It's not like someone dies and people suddenly riot. It's that someone dies, people make their voice heard, they're ignored and nothing is done, riots happen. They win over some but as it stands, people who are against their side to begin with won't exactly be swayed in their favor.

At this point it's getting an indifferent populace aware.

Edited by Lord Raven

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18 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

they could, but even as backwards as North Korea is, they would know the repercussions. they would be crushed.

Yea, that's the silver lining.  Despite what China has been saying, I don't think they'd support N Korea.  The US and China have one of the most reliant trade deals in history, neither country could survive without the other's technology and manufacturing IMO.  The issue is, I don't think Kim Jong Un is...the most intelligent man in the world and I think his arrogance could supersede all logic.  After all, N Korea has claimed that they were the first to put a man on the Sun.  

18 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Lushen, did you read any of Shoblongoo's posts?

Obviously as I replied directly to his point about his brother who could change saying that it doesn't matter since Michael Brown didn't change before he died so what he could have potentially done is irrelevant and we can't speak for what might have been.  You read my post?

If all 18 year olds are wastes of space then none of them should be idolized.  Simple.  That being said, not all 18 year olds are wastes of space, some serve in the military, some go to college and focus on their studies, one of my friends started a charity organization long before he was 18 that actually became quite significant.

Edited by Lushen

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43 minutes ago, Lushen said:

You do know how nukes work right?  Like...literally the existance of nukes in N Korea means they can strike us.  If you're referring to the range not being long enough to hit the US from Korea, I'll remind you the Japanesse bomb'd Pearl Harbor, one of our military bases first.  And N Korea has explicitly mentioned Guam.

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/nation-world/report-north-korea-making-missile-ready-nuclear-weapons/462814538

This is a bipartisan issue, I'm not fear mongering. 

not to sound like a dick, but i probably know far more accurately than you how a nuke works. and missiles. and planes, apparently. i've linked two things absolutely worth watching in this thread already: the oppenheimer doc and the short but sweet wwii info vid fallen.io. you might begin to understand both the physical difficulties in making a nuke and the political complexities surrounded by their manufacture and ''use.'' what's more--nk probably has no idea how to practically manufacture a hydrogen bomb.

it being a bipartisan issue and whether or not you are fear mongering are wholly unrelated.

11 minutes ago, Lushen said:

Yea, that's the silver lining.  Despite what China has been saying, I don't think they'd support N Korea.  The US and China have one of the most reliant trade deals in history, neither country could survive without the other's technology and manufacturing IMO.  The issue is, I don't think Kim Jong Un is...the most intelligent man in the world and I think his arrogance could supersede all logic.  After all, N Korea has claimed that they were the first to put a man on the Sun.  

Obviously as I replied directly to his point about his brother who could change saying that it doesn't matter since Michael Brown didn't change before he died so what he could have potentially done is irrelevant and we can't speak for what might have been.

your opinions are pretty hastily formed. what you have to say about un contradicts a previous article you linked concerning nk's own power lmao.

Edited by Phoenix Wright

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8 minutes ago, Lushen said:

Obviously as I replied directly to his point about his brother who could change saying that it doesn't matter since Michael Brown didn't change before he died so what he could have potentially done is irrelevant and we can't speak for what might have been.

If all 18 year olds are wastes of space then none of them should be idolized.  Simple.  That being said, not all 18 year olds are wastes of space, some serve in the military, some go to college and focus on their studies, one of my friends started a charity organization long before he was 18 that actually became quite significant.

okay so your point is that he was trash at 18 (just barely an adult, and he wasn't really trash) but he died

in either case, it's pretty obvious; he's a symbol that probably isn't someone we should totally lionize but he's not someone we should demonize at all. he's basically a kid who was shot dead, and shoblongoo's point covers everything about the case. michael brown was looked into by the police force and the DOJ and it turns out he wasn't entirely innocent, but that investigation led to a whole host of other issues

hence he's one of the many faces of the movement. however, your issue seems to literally be with the symbol and not the movement itself (or actually maybe both and you're just finding something really stupid to criticize) so I don't really know why you're going with this. maybe you should stop looking too far into the symbols and care about the movement instead, because symbols are overrated (but are necessary for the common folk).

so please, address the argument and not the symbol, because while he isn't the best symbol his death lead to a DOJ investigation that more or less unraveled the truth, and it just so happened that Michael Brown was the exception and not the rule. i think you, as a white person, really don't understand the fear that black people (or minorities) in general have of the police.

 

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19 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said:

not to sound like a dick, but i probably know far more accurately than you how a nuke works. and missiles. and planes, apparently. i've linked two things absolutely worth watching in this thread already: the oppenheimer doc and the short but sweet wwii info vid fallen.io. you might begin to understand both the physical difficulties in making a nuke and the political complexities surrounded by their manufacture and ''use.'' what's more--nk probably has no idea how to practically manufacture a hydrogen bomb.

I majored with an emphasis in nuclear engineering but ok.

North Korea already has nukes BTW, so how hard it is to make is like...not relevant?  In fact, if you clicked on the link I started this discussion with, you'd read that they just recently made the breakthrough of attaching nukes to a missile so yea...  

19 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

so please, address the argument and not the symbol, because while he isn't the best symbol his death lead to a DOJ investigation that more or less unraveled the truth, and it just so happened that Michael Brown was the exception and not the rule. i think you, as a white person, really don't understand the fear that black people (or minorities) in general have of the police.

The only argument I've seen is "Oh, just because he was the bad guy doesn't mean we shouldn't worship him for sake of the movement" which is so illogical the best way I can think of to refute it is to just repeat it...

I never argued about the Ferguson DOJ investigation because it didn't really relate to what I was saying about BLM's illegitimate roots and current undertakings (go to their website, see how Michael Brown is NOT a dead issue, they're still investing a lot of time and energy on his behalf).  

 

I don't want to go into arguments for the DOJ investigation because whether or not Police should have their hand on a gun more often or be more vigilant with Black people in Ferguson who statistically have a higher crime rate is the same kind of situation of whether or not we should screen Muslim people getting on or off our planes more aggressively.  This is a very highly opinionated issue (pretty much 99% opinionated) in which discussion will lead nowhere good.  This is like talking about Abortion IMHO, people have their opinion and it's not really related to facts.

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

okay so your point is that he was trash at 18 (just barely an adult, and he wasn't really trash) but he died

in either case, it's pretty obvious; he's a symbol that probably isn't someone we should totally lionize but he's not someone we should demonize at all. he's basically a kid who was shot dead, and shoblongoo's point covers everything about the case. michael brown was looked into by the police force and the DOJ and it turns out he wasn't entirely innocent, but that investigation led to a whole host of other issue,

18 is not a kid, it's an adult.  You're acting like this was some 10 year old juvenile.  

Edited by Lushen

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51 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

It actually is a tool in favor in some ways, because riots spread awareness.

I know this is anecdotal, but the number of people that have asked me about the motivation of the Baltimore riots and the long history of corruption in Baltimore was astounding. It's something I've taken for granted but was not known on a nationwide scale.

Besides, in all cases of riots, there were peaceful protests otherwise ignored for weeks beforehand. It's not like someone dies and people suddenly riot. It's that someone dies, people make their voice heard, they're ignored and nothing is done, riots happen. They win over some but as it stands, people who are against their side to begin with won't exactly be swayed in their favor.

At this point it's getting an indifferent populace aware.

This!

I admit, I was hilariously ignorant of U.S. politics up until a couple of years ago, as I was many other things, living in my white privileged bubble. I've had zero interaction with U.S. police (my brother's a detective but that's in the U.K.), again, a result of privilege (unlike Philando Castile, who was pulled over 200+ times prior to being killed). I've learned a lot, thanks to the efforts of groups like BLM and The Guardian's database. Police killings in the U.S. are so commonplace that we only hear of a fraction of them, and even if you wish to dispute Michael Brown's case, there are hundreds in which the victim was very much innocent. For example, Ismael Lopez is a recent case of a man shot dead by police because they got an address wrong (and still the lies!)  There are hundreds of similar examples - some I've seen the videos of. One was a Facebook friend's husband. The average U.S.ian is 8 times more likely to be killed by police than a terrorist. I am far more aware now than I used to be even a year ago. It's definitely impacted how I'll interact with the police in future (and how not to call) and how to teach my kids, too.

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1 hour ago, Lushen said:

I majored with an emphasis in nuclear engineering but ok.

North Korea already has nukes BTW, so how hard it is to make is like...not relevant?  In fact, if you clicked on the link I started this discussion with, you'd read that they just recently made the breakthrough of attaching nukes to a missile so yea...  

majored...in what with an emphasis in nuclear engineering? so far your claims don't lay credence to your credentials. japan had planes to bomb us with. not missiles. nk's missiles don't yet reach japan. short of a miracle invasion, how do you expect a nuclear warhead to make its way to the united states from north korea?

north korea has fission nukes at best (uranium). not hydrogen bombs. 

i did read the first link. you ignored my point about it lol. 

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I mean, you could say that North Korea is a threat to the US in the sense that if they were to attack South Korea or Japan we would get pulled into the fight.  And assuming nothing's going to happen only works if you also assume that all players in this game of "who will nuke whom" is rational.  I can think of at least two players whose rationality is called into question.

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1 hour ago, Lushen said:

The only argument I've seen is "Oh, just because he was the bad guy doesn't mean we shouldn't worship him for sake of the movement" which is so illogical the best way I can think of to refute it is to just repeat it...

Then you haven't been reading what other people have been saying. To come back to what Shoblongoo said, whether or not Michael Brown is a good symbol to rally is a minor part of the larger problem of the breakdown in the ability to trust the Police.

To what degree Michael 'provoked' the officers doesn't really matter at this point, because regardless of whether he did or did not attack the officer the broader community couldn't trust the Police on the matter since they were so used to officers lying about hostility in order to justify their brutality, nor could they trust the Police's investigation into the matter since their complaints amount to nothing since the officer in question just gets rubber-stamped.

This particular incident is the metaphorical straw breaking the camel's back. Focusing solely on whether or not this one incident was justified ignores the wider issue of the Police pissing away their good will with the public, especially since other, more clear-cut cases of abusive behaviour have come to light.

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1 hour ago, Phoenix Wright said:

majored...in what with an emphasis in nuclear engineering? so far your claims don't lay credence to your credentials. japan had planes to bomb us with. not missiles. nk's missiles don't yet reach japan. short of a miracle invasion, how do you expect a nuclear warhead to make its way to the united states from north korea?

north korea has fission nukes at best (uranium). not hydrogen bombs. 

i did read the first link. you ignored my point about it lol. 

Mechanical Engineering emphasis in Nuclear.  I don't think any of this really matters though, degrees don't mean a whole lot I was just saying if you've done internet research or similar studies on the matter you probably shouldn't criticize my knowledge...

I also never said Hydrogen bombs, I said nuclear bombs.  Fission bombs are nuclear...

Japan had planes to bomb us with...because long distance missiles weren't a thing yet and nuclear bomb wasn't either...

North Korea is "Considering" strike on Guam acc't the second link I referenced which means it can reach one of our military bases.  These bases include American Soldiers and Civilians.  Thus...They can hit us and their enemies...

I don't get it.  Your point is that it is very hard to manufacture and use a nuclear weapon despite my reference saying N Korea has a nuclear weapon they have attached to a missile that can hit Guam.  Like...do you not believe the source or...IDK what you're getting at...

 

28 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Then you haven't been reading what other people have been saying. To come back to what Shoblongoo said, whether or not Michael Brown is a good symbol to rally is a minor part of the larger problem of the breakdown in the ability to trust the Police.

To what degree Michael 'provoked' the officers doesn't really matter at this point, because regardless of whether he did or did not attack the officer the broader community couldn't trust the Police on the matter since they were so used to officers lying about hostility in order to justify their brutality, nor could they trust the Police's investigation into the matter since their complaints amount to nothing since the officer in question just gets rubber-stamped.

This particular incident is the metaphorical straw breaking the camel's back. Focusing solely on whether or not this one incident was justified ignores the wider issue of the Police pissing away their good will with the public, especially since other, more clear-cut cases of abusive behaviour have come to light.

This is the issue with what people were responding to me about.  I was not discussing whether we could or couldn't trust the police, my last few posts were about how BLM has not been an effective movement and only caused confusion, hostility, and ignorance.  I believe that black lives matter, I just don't believe in Black Lives Matter.

Edited by Lushen

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