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To everyone wishing for impeachment, I hope you realize the impeachment is supposed to be the exception of the exception in the presidential system. Yes, in my country it happened as recently as last year, and it was perfectly legal, but it was only possible because the norms detailing the cases for impeachment are broader than desirable in such a system.

If you want to remove your head of government at will, perhaps it's time to change to a parliamentary system like every healthy democracy in the world. Either that, or push for laws implementing recall of an executive term. Otherwise, forcing the existence of a reason to impeach a president legitimately elected by popular vote (until evidence to the contrary, that is) is not a very ethical thing to do. The rules apply to everyone, like it or not, and they are not subject to change whenever we lose the election.

The US were the perfect country for someone like Trump to emerge victorious in an election. Two-party system, single-round election, increasing political radicalism. Americans take pride in their system but it simply isn't able to prevent extremists from reaching positions of power the way European systems can. Just look at what happened in France (which employs a mixed presidential and parliamentary system), MLP went to the second round and, once there, she got crushed, because everyone else voted against her and for the other candidate. With her platform, I could bet serious cash in the possibility she'll never be elected, ever.

With Trump's election, the flaws in the American political system became evident to the whole world. Insisting the system is immaculate despite its obvious shortcomings is not only an act of ignorance, but also of arrogance.

Edited by Skynstein

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10 hours ago, Skynstein said:

(until evidence to the contrary, that is)  

...I mean with what's public knowledge at this point, there's enough to institute articles of impeachment for obstruction of justice (i.e. the same grounds for impeachment brought against Nixon). What's missing is the political will from a Republican controlled Congress, not the evidence of an impeachable offense. And that's without even speculating on what may or may not come out in the Mueller investigation concerning money laundering, racketeering, and ties to Russia.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Why wouldn't the Republicans impeach Trump? If Trump is impeached, Pence becomes president. Compared to Trump, the vice president is a lot more moderate and a lot less controversial, and I think a lot of Republicans and Democrats would be more comfortable with him in office.

I think the reason Trump is still in office is because he's still popular with a lot of people. He did win the election, after all. A lot of congressmen would probably rather wait for him to do something extremely stupid that nobody is in favor of to impeach him than have to explain to their constituents why they ousted the man that the people put in office.

 

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3 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

Why wouldn't the Republicans impeach Trump? 

 

You sorta answered your own question there; House Republicans have to run for reelection in heavily Republican districts, and they're terrified that any who are seen as coming out too strongly against Trump will be primaried out of office by more partisanly inclined Republican challengers. There are no profiles in courage among House Leadership. You will not see them turn on Trump unless their voters turn on Trump, and they perceive no political cost in so doing.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Ending DACA is especial bullshit; I can't imagine what it must be like to be forced back to a country you don't remember and whose language you don't speak. It also has zero to do with criminality since you require a perfect, blemish-free record to benefit from DACA.

 

 

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9 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

Why wouldn't the Republicans impeach Trump? If Trump is impeached, Pence becomes president. Compared to Trump, the vice president is a lot more moderate and a lot less controversial, and I think a lot of Republicans and Democrats would be more comfortable with him in office.

I think the reason Trump is still in office is because he's still popular with a lot of people. He did win the election, after all. A lot of congressmen would probably rather wait for him to do something extremely stupid that nobody is in favor of to impeach him than have to explain to their constituents why they ousted the man that the people put in office.

The second half of your post is literally the answer. Trump still has a 70-ish% approval relating with conservative voters last time I checked, so why impeach him? Because democrat and independent voters don't like him? The 70% who still support Trump are the only people who's opinions the GOP care about because they're the people who vote for them. If something comes out of the Mueller investigation that causes his approval to dip below 50% with Republican voters, then we might see something happen but until them I'm not expecting anything other than the odd Congressmen voicing 'concern' over Trump's actions and policies.

EDIT: You could do an X-Ray of the entire GOP and be lucky to find a single spine shared between them.

Edited by Mortarion

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2 hours ago, Mortarion said:

The second half of your post is literally the answer. Trump still has a 70-ish% approval relating with conservative voters last time I checked, so why impeach him? Because democrat and independent voters don't like him? The 70% who still support Trump are the only people who's opinions the GOP care about because they're the people who vote for them. If something comes out of the Mueller investigation that causes his approval to dip below 50% with Republican voters, then we might see something happen but until them I'm not expecting anything other than the odd Congressmen voicing 'concern' over Trump's actions and policies.

Does this count as concern?

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10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but the 'concern' was less to do with doubting the authenticity of their objection and more so the follow-up i.e. they're concerned, but what are they going to do about it?

Besides, isn't that guy a Democrat? I'm referring to the GOP specifically.

Edited by Mortarion

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3 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough, but the 'concern' was less to do with doubting the authenticity of their objection and more so the follow-up i.e. they're concerned, but what are they going to do about it?

Besides, isn't that guy a Democrat? I'm referring to the GOP specifically.

May be a democrat, but IMO it's a pretty big thing when a senator says that about a president.  Said move was pretty well-received here, BTW.

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9 minutes ago, eclipse said:

May be a democrat, but IMO it's a pretty big thing when a senator says that about a president.  Said move was pretty well-received here, BTW.

Yeah, pretty ballsy move by him.

Regardless, the overall point I was trying to make was that;

a) Trump, for a wide variety of reasons, still has a good approval rating amongst the Republican base, at least if I recall correctly.

b) Until he does something even more fucked up or Mueller discovers something that causes his approval to drop with the Republican base, the GOP will do nothing because they have no reason to.

c) Despite this, GOP politicians have often expressed concern and disapproval over some of Trump's actions. This is demonstrative that either they don't care about what he does that much, or that they do care about it passionately but are selling out there morals regardless.

d) The GOP are spineless and inconsistent with their positions, as seen through Paul Ryan's recent statements.

Edited by Mortarion

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10 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Yeah, pretty ballsy move by him.

Regardless, the overall point I was trying to make was that;

a) Trump, for a wide variety of reasons, still has a good approval rating amongst the Republican base, at least if I recall correctly.

b) Until he does something even more fucked up or Mueller discovers something that causes his approval to drop with the Republican base, the GOP will do nothing because they have no reason to.

c) Despite this, GOP politicians have often expressed concern and disapproval over some of Trump's actions. This is demonstrative that either they don't care about what he does that much, or that they do care about it passionately but are selling out there morals regardless.

d) The GOP are spineless and inconsistent with their positions, as seen through Paul Ryan's recent statements.

You'd think that his ties to Russia would be enough, but alas.  As long as there's an "us versus them" mentality in politics, it ain't gonna happen.

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21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You'd think that his ties to Russia would be enough, but alas.

That shouldn't even be required. His long history of scamming, crappy business management and racism should've done that.

22 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 As long as there's an "us versus them" mentality in politics, it ain't gonna happen.

For the current situation, perhaps. But that ignores the how completely dominant he was during the primaries. Partisanship is definitely a factor here, but there's no denying that his particular brand of xenophobia, jingoism and pseudo-fascist authoritarianism appeals to the Republican base.

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As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

If Trump really does get unpopular among Republican voters, GOP politicians will bail on him.

As for Pence being more moderate than Trump - in some ways, yes. In other ways, noooooo.

Edited by Tryhard

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48 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

If Trump really does get unpopular among Republican voters, GOP politicians will bail on him.

As for Pence being more moderate than Trump - in some ways, yes. In other ways, noooooo.

The upside to Pence is that I don't think we'd have to worry about Russia as much.  The downside is that it's one step closer to a government I don't want.

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21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The upside to Pence is that I don't think we'd have to worry about Russia as much.  The downside is that it's one step closer to a government I don't want.

Sort of? Considering that Trump's entire campaign is under investigation for collusion, I highly doubt Pence's hands are clean here.

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12 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Sort of? Considering that Trump's entire campaign is under investigation for collusion, I highly doubt Pence's hands are clean here.

Maybe not totally clean, but a lot cleaner than Trump's IMO.

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17 hours ago, Tryhard said:

As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

And the GOP should get punished for DOING ITS JOB???

During Bush administration he thought it was a great idea to invade Iraq, and he did get a lot of praise and support from his fellow Republicans, but the Democrat campaign against him, which was supported by worldwide disapproval of America's policy towards the Middle East, was at an all-time high. Then Obama won the election and naturally the power shifted, so the Republicans began doing what the Democrats were doing before, BECAUSE IT WORKED, as McCain, a Vietnam War veteran, thus representing what Bush had stood for, lost to Obama, who was the voice of those critical of the GOP's warmongering. That's politics for you.

If that's what it comes down to (the GOP being the ultimate evil that should be eliminated for the greater good of the country), then just give Obama a lifetime term and be done with it. Unfortunately, there are people who disagree, which is why there are two parties in the US, which is IMO still not enough, there should be more, 5 would be nice.

@Mortarion: The GOP is locked right now because they know Trump hurts them long term but it's not a politically intelligent move to literally remove from office a president who, for better or worse, was elected under their own banner. It would make a Pence administration unmanageable, even if they find Pence replacing Trump to be the best case scenario. They wouldn't gain much from it politically speaking, because, from what I read and hear, Trump's support among the voting base is much bigger than among the GOP's head figures, and the leftists who'd approve of Trump being impeached don't vote Republican anyway. It'd help externally more than internally, but people in Europe and in other places don't have any voting rights in America.

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1 hour ago, Skynstein said:

And the GOP should get punished for DOING ITS JOB???

During Bush administration he thought it was a great idea to invade Iraq, and he did get a lot of praise and support from his fellow Republicans, but the Democrat campaign against him, which was supported by worldwide disapproval of America's policy towards the Middle East, was at an all-time high. Then Obama won the election and naturally the power shifted, so the Republicans began doing what the Democrats were doing before, BECAUSE IT WORKED, as McCain, a Vietnam War veteran, thus representing what Bush had stood for, lost to Obama, who was the voice of those critical of the GOP's warmongering. That's politics for you.

If that's what it comes down to (the GOP being the ultimate evil that should be eliminated for the greater good of the country), then just give Obama a lifetime term and be done with it. Unfortunately, there are people who disagree, which is why there are two parties in the US, which is IMO still not enough, there should be more, 5 would be nice.

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

Edited by Tryhard

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1 hour ago, Tryhard said:

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

I'm sure they know that, but the escalating radicalism has made it less difficult for cults to prosper in elections. This is a problem my country also has. When the left acts like a bunch of angry Marxists, they scare the undecided away instead of swaying those who wouldn't consider being in the same company as white supremacists.

The GOP didn't really want Trump as a candidate, but none of the others had the same cult following from the voting base as Trump, because Trump is not really a politician, he's a celebrity, so he ended up being their candidate. Going against the voters would've meant losing the third consecutive election, which would've been a disaster anyway.

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7 hours ago, Skynstein said:

When the left acts like a bunch of angry Marxists

source on the entire left acting on a bunch of angry marxists and not a few members of antifa?

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4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

source on the entire left acting on a bunch of angry marxists and not a few members of antifa?

I think he's talking about the left in his country.

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16 hours ago, Tryhard said:

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

You know, it gets a lot more far right that the GOP. I know a lot of people who think the GOP is too shallow and makes too many compromises. I come from a very far-right crowd, so maybe I could help you all understand what we really think. Because statements like 

On 9/5/2017 at 11:31 PM, Mortarion said:

...there's no denying that his particular brand of xenophobia, jingoism and pseudo-fascist authoritarianism appeals to the Republican base.

seem highly assumptive to me.

 

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40 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

You know, it gets a lot more far right that the GOP. I know a lot of people who think the GOP is too shallow and makes too many compromises. I come from a very far-right crowd, so maybe I could help you all understand what we really think. Because statements like 

There is a difference between right wing and authoritarian. You can get more authoritarian than the GOP, fascists being an example. At the same time, they are very authoritarian and like big government despite what they claim, poking into people's private lives especially regarding abortion and gay marriage, and aren't even all that committed to traditionally fiscal conservative values considering they love neo-conservatism, massive military funding, corporate write-offs, and a global presence. That said, they pretty much apply to that heavy "individuals have to do everything" and disparaging of any sort of welfare mentality which most modern first world countries have left behind. Some Republicans are worse than others, but I don't think you can say that they like immigrants or foreign people.

I don't understand how anyone can think the GOP makes too many compromises. They shut down the government over Obamacare. They don't agree with Democrats over anything except in regards to terrible foreign policy and favoring corporations heavily. What, in your mind, is more right wing than the GOP more so than what they already do?

On that topic, liberalism has been a catch all term for opposition to conservatism, when it really isn't. It's opposed to authoritarianism, in the same way libertarians are. Most liberals in the US are fairly centrist, and the scale is so fucked that while Americans think the Democrat and Republican dichotomy is a left vs right one, pick anywhere else in the world and most of them know the US is skewed so heavy to the right on a global scale with the Democrats being centrists at best, more accurately center-right and the GOP being a far-right party. Progressives are the real opposing element to conservatism, in the way that while conservatives feel they need to preserve what is good, progressives want to fix what is bad. That's why I find it so funny when Republicans in the US complain and bemoan about "the left", obviously referring to Democrats. Most of them fucking aren't.

Edited by Tryhard

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9 hours ago, The Geek said:

I think he's talking about the left in his country.

And to @Lord Raven:

Both, in fact. Here it's worse because there's basically no center (center, here, is synonymous with absence of political platform and therefore corruption) and then there's no moderate left, which would correspond to social democracy, there's plain left which encompasses socialists as well.

Anyway, speaking of left in America is indeed difficult because the Democratic party isn't exactly left, they try "lefty" things but they're tame, as during the Cold War there was a literal effort to eliminate the left from the country. America is, thus, pretty much its own thing, with the Republicans being right-wing "proper" and the Democrats more of a center party with very slight leftist connotations. But the leftist and far-leftist vote Democrat because the Democrats found it could get them some extra votes if they catered to these people, not unlike Trump massaging far-right extremists and all the filth that comes with them.

Even the far-left in the US are not communists, because they love the goodies of capitalism. But they do behave much the same way Marxist groups all over the world do. Their brand of socialism is a result of people stuffing Marxism where it shouldn't have been. Class struggle is a concept of economics, then they apply to race, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identification, you name it. The result is disastrous because Marx wasn't exactly a democrat, he was skeptical of democracy, otherwise he wouldn't have suggested revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat as means to erase capitalist mentality from society. I actually find Marx's economic theory very interesting, if outdated, and I don't like to see right-wingers blame him for misuse of his theory by people born more than 100 years after his death.

And, if you can't generalize the left, you can't generalize the right either. I've seen it mentioned in this thread that the white supremacists are who won Trump the election. Honestly, I refuse to believe half of the US is white supremacist. You might argue they're all racists, but even racism comes in "grades".

Edited by Skynstein

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