Jump to content
Navv

General US Politics

Poll  

272 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      89
    • No
      110
    • Maybe
      73
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      49
    • No
      110
    • Indifferent
      42


Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Yeah, pretty ballsy move by him.

Regardless, the overall point I was trying to make was that;

a) Trump, for a wide variety of reasons, still has a good approval rating amongst the Republican base, at least if I recall correctly.

b) Until he does something even more fucked up or Mueller discovers something that causes his approval to drop with the Republican base, the GOP will do nothing because they have no reason to.

c) Despite this, GOP politicians have often expressed concern and disapproval over some of Trump's actions. This is demonstrative that either they don't care about what he does that much, or that they do care about it passionately but are selling out there morals regardless.

d) The GOP are spineless and inconsistent with their positions, as seen through Paul Ryan's recent statements.

You'd think that his ties to Russia would be enough, but alas.  As long as there's an "us versus them" mentality in politics, it ain't gonna happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You'd think that his ties to Russia would be enough, but alas.

That shouldn't even be required. His long history of scamming, crappy business management and racism should've done that.

22 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 As long as there's an "us versus them" mentality in politics, it ain't gonna happen.

For the current situation, perhaps. But that ignores the how completely dominant he was during the primaries. Partisanship is definitely a factor here, but there's no denying that his particular brand of xenophobia, jingoism and pseudo-fascist authoritarianism appeals to the Republican base.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

If Trump really does get unpopular among Republican voters, GOP politicians will bail on him.

As for Pence being more moderate than Trump - in some ways, yes. In other ways, noooooo.

Edited by Tryhard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

If Trump really does get unpopular among Republican voters, GOP politicians will bail on him.

As for Pence being more moderate than Trump - in some ways, yes. In other ways, noooooo.

The upside to Pence is that I don't think we'd have to worry about Russia as much.  The downside is that it's one step closer to a government I don't want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The upside to Pence is that I don't think we'd have to worry about Russia as much.  The downside is that it's one step closer to a government I don't want.

Sort of? Considering that Trump's entire campaign is under investigation for collusion, I highly doubt Pence's hands are clean here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

Sort of? Considering that Trump's entire campaign is under investigation for collusion, I highly doubt Pence's hands are clean here.

Maybe not totally clean, but a lot cleaner than Trump's IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Tryhard said:

As controversial and ridiculous as Trump is, he is the symptom and not the disease. If the GOP get out of this unscathed and are able to inflame rhetoric against whoever the next Democrat in power is then nothing will change.

And the GOP should get punished for DOING ITS JOB???

During Bush administration he thought it was a great idea to invade Iraq, and he did get a lot of praise and support from his fellow Republicans, but the Democrat campaign against him, which was supported by worldwide disapproval of America's policy towards the Middle East, was at an all-time high. Then Obama won the election and naturally the power shifted, so the Republicans began doing what the Democrats were doing before, BECAUSE IT WORKED, as McCain, a Vietnam War veteran, thus representing what Bush had stood for, lost to Obama, who was the voice of those critical of the GOP's warmongering. That's politics for you.

If that's what it comes down to (the GOP being the ultimate evil that should be eliminated for the greater good of the country), then just give Obama a lifetime term and be done with it. Unfortunately, there are people who disagree, which is why there are two parties in the US, which is IMO still not enough, there should be more, 5 would be nice.

@Mortarion: The GOP is locked right now because they know Trump hurts them long term but it's not a politically intelligent move to literally remove from office a president who, for better or worse, was elected under their own banner. It would make a Pence administration unmanageable, even if they find Pence replacing Trump to be the best case scenario. They wouldn't gain much from it politically speaking, because, from what I read and hear, Trump's support among the voting base is much bigger than among the GOP's head figures, and the leftists who'd approve of Trump being impeached don't vote Republican anyway. It'd help externally more than internally, but people in Europe and in other places don't have any voting rights in America.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Skynstein said:

And the GOP should get punished for DOING ITS JOB???

During Bush administration he thought it was a great idea to invade Iraq, and he did get a lot of praise and support from his fellow Republicans, but the Democrat campaign against him, which was supported by worldwide disapproval of America's policy towards the Middle East, was at an all-time high. Then Obama won the election and naturally the power shifted, so the Republicans began doing what the Democrats were doing before, BECAUSE IT WORKED, as McCain, a Vietnam War veteran, thus representing what Bush had stood for, lost to Obama, who was the voice of those critical of the GOP's warmongering. That's politics for you.

If that's what it comes down to (the GOP being the ultimate evil that should be eliminated for the greater good of the country), then just give Obama a lifetime term and be done with it. Unfortunately, there are people who disagree, which is why there are two parties in the US, which is IMO still not enough, there should be more, 5 would be nice.

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

Edited by Tryhard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tryhard said:

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

I'm sure they know that, but the escalating radicalism has made it less difficult for cults to prosper in elections. This is a problem my country also has. When the left acts like a bunch of angry Marxists, they scare the undecided away instead of swaying those who wouldn't consider being in the same company as white supremacists.

The GOP didn't really want Trump as a candidate, but none of the others had the same cult following from the voting base as Trump, because Trump is not really a politician, he's a celebrity, so he ended up being their candidate. Going against the voters would've meant losing the third consecutive election, which would've been a disaster anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Skynstein said:

When the left acts like a bunch of angry Marxists

source on the entire left acting on a bunch of angry marxists and not a few members of antifa?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

source on the entire left acting on a bunch of angry marxists and not a few members of antifa?

I think he's talking about the left in his country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tryhard said:

I mean the more birthism, radical pandering to theocratic religion, criticising Obama for ridiculous things instead of the actual wrongs he did part of the GOP. And what I mean is that they deserve to be dismantled because they have proven they do not know how to govern and for a reasonable alternative for the Democrats to actually come out of it. Give me something else other than far-right authoritarian trash. The Republicans are not equal to the Democrats even in that example you give.

I dunno where you're getting that I wouldn't want more political parties because I would, but even if I was a conservative, the GOP are too far-right for them to be taken seriously.

America needs to learn its lesson again just as they did with Bush. Or didn't.

You know, it gets a lot more far right that the GOP. I know a lot of people who think the GOP is too shallow and makes too many compromises. I come from a very far-right crowd, so maybe I could help you all understand what we really think. Because statements like 

On 9/5/2017 at 11:31 PM, Mortarion said:

...there's no denying that his particular brand of xenophobia, jingoism and pseudo-fascist authoritarianism appeals to the Republican base.

seem highly assumptive to me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

You know, it gets a lot more far right that the GOP. I know a lot of people who think the GOP is too shallow and makes too many compromises. I come from a very far-right crowd, so maybe I could help you all understand what we really think. Because statements like 

There is a difference between right wing and authoritarian. You can get more authoritarian than the GOP, fascists being an example. At the same time, they are very authoritarian and like big government despite what they claim, poking into people's private lives especially regarding abortion and gay marriage, and aren't even all that committed to traditionally fiscal conservative values considering they love neo-conservatism, massive military funding, corporate write-offs, and a global presence. That said, they pretty much apply to that heavy "individuals have to do everything" and disparaging of any sort of welfare mentality which most modern first world countries have left behind. Some Republicans are worse than others, but I don't think you can say that they like immigrants or foreign people.

I don't understand how anyone can think the GOP makes too many compromises. They shut down the government over Obamacare. They don't agree with Democrats over anything except in regards to terrible foreign policy and favoring corporations heavily. What, in your mind, is more right wing than the GOP more so than what they already do?

On that topic, liberalism has been a catch all term for opposition to conservatism, when it really isn't. It's opposed to authoritarianism, in the same way libertarians are. Most liberals in the US are fairly centrist, and the scale is so fucked that while Americans think the Democrat and Republican dichotomy is a left vs right one, pick anywhere else in the world and most of them know the US is skewed so heavy to the right on a global scale with the Democrats being centrists at best, more accurately center-right and the GOP being a far-right party. Progressives are the real opposing element to conservatism, in the way that while conservatives feel they need to preserve what is good, progressives want to fix what is bad. That's why I find it so funny when Republicans in the US complain and bemoan about "the left", obviously referring to Democrats. Most of them fucking aren't.

Edited by Tryhard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Geek said:

I think he's talking about the left in his country.

And to @Lord Raven:

Both, in fact. Here it's worse because there's basically no center (center, here, is synonymous with absence of political platform and therefore corruption) and then there's no moderate left, which would correspond to social democracy, there's plain left which encompasses socialists as well.

Anyway, speaking of left in America is indeed difficult because the Democratic party isn't exactly left, they try "lefty" things but they're tame, as during the Cold War there was a literal effort to eliminate the left from the country. America is, thus, pretty much its own thing, with the Republicans being right-wing "proper" and the Democrats more of a center party with very slight leftist connotations. But the leftist and far-leftist vote Democrat because the Democrats found it could get them some extra votes if they catered to these people, not unlike Trump massaging far-right extremists and all the filth that comes with them.

Even the far-left in the US are not communists, because they love the goodies of capitalism. But they do behave much the same way Marxist groups all over the world do. Their brand of socialism is a result of people stuffing Marxism where it shouldn't have been. Class struggle is a concept of economics, then they apply to race, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identification, you name it. The result is disastrous because Marx wasn't exactly a democrat, he was skeptical of democracy, otherwise he wouldn't have suggested revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat as means to erase capitalist mentality from society. I actually find Marx's economic theory very interesting, if outdated, and I don't like to see right-wingers blame him for misuse of his theory by people born more than 100 years after his death.

And, if you can't generalize the left, you can't generalize the right either. I've seen it mentioned in this thread that the white supremacists are who won Trump the election. Honestly, I refuse to believe half of the US is white supremacist. You might argue they're all racists, but even racism comes in "grades".

Edited by Skynstein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

There is a difference between right wing and authoritarian. You can get more authoritarian than the GOP, fascists being an example. At the same time, they are very authoritarian and like big government despite what they claim, poking into people's private lives especially regarding abortion and gay marriage, and aren't even all that committed to traditionally fiscal conservative values considering they love neo-conservatism, massive military funding, corporate write-offs, and a global presence. That said, they pretty much apply to that heavy "individuals have to do everything" mentality which most modern first world countries have left behind. Some Republicans are worse than others, but I don't think you can say that they like immigrants or foreign people.

I don't understand how anyone can think the GOP makes too many compromises. They shut down the government over Obamacare. They don't agree with Democrats over anything except in regards to terrible foreign policy and favoring corporations heavily. What, in your mind, is more right wing than the GOP more so than what they already do?

On that topic, liberalism has been a catch all term for opposition to conservatism, when it really isn't. It's opposed to authoritarianism, in the same way libertarians are. Most liberals in the US are fairly centrist, and the scale is so fucked that while Americans think the Democrat and Republican dichotomy is a left vs right one, pick anywhere else in the world and most of them know the US is skewed so heavy to the right with the Democrats being centrists at best, more accurately center-right and the GOP being a far-right party. Progressives are the real opposing element to conservatism, in the way that while conservatives feel they need to preserve what is good, progressives want to fix what is bad. That's why I find it so funny when Republicans in the US complain and bemoan about "the left", obviously referring to Democrats. Most of them fucking aren't.

I'll take your correction for my terminology. When I said "far right" I meant "radically conservative". I grew up with right and left meaning conservative and liberal, which as I understand is a fairly common point of view in America as many journalists and political commentators on both sides of the political aisle use that as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Skynstein said:

Even the far-left in the US are not communists, because they love the goodies of capitalism. But they do behave much the same way Marxist groups all over the world do. Their brand of socialism is a result of people stuffing Marxism where it shouldn't have been.

Like when?

5 hours ago, Skynstein said:

Class struggle is a concept of economics, then they apply to race, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identification, you name it.

Explain this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

I'll take your correction for my terminology. When I said "far right" I meant "radically conservative". I grew up with right and left meaning conservative and liberal, which as I understand is a fairly common point of view in America as many journalists and political commentators on both sides of the political aisle use that as well. 

Eh, it wasn't really you using it as far as I could see. It's just I've seen that sentiment echoed a lot where it seems as though in America the whole concept of leftist, liberalism, conservatism, socialism, communism, fascism, etc, has been muddled and people use these political terms really incorrectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2017 at 11:50 AM, SullyMcGully said:

You know, it gets a lot more far right that the GOP. 

 

...it also gets a lot more far left then the Democrats. There are people who think Democrats sold out their progressive values and have become too beholden to entrenched interests to fight for progressive reforms--that they should be pushing hard for universal healthcare, living wage laws, an end to the war on drugs, LGBT protections under federal antidiscrimination law, and looser immigration laws allowing for easier legal entry to the United States + retroactive forgiveness for unlawful entrants. Most Americans, however, are neither to the right of the Republicans or to the left the Democrats, but somewhere in between. And so the need to appeal to the center defines the metes and bounds of the parties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 07/09/2017 at 8:23 PM, Mortarion said:

Like when?

Explain this.

I was clear enough. Piece things together and you'll understand it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Skynstein said:

I was clear enough. Piece things together and you'll understand it.

No you weren't. You just said 'they do this' without any elaboration.

You didn't give an example of how people are 'stuffing Marxism where they shouldn't', nor did you explain why the factors you listed are irrelevant. You can't say 'piece it together' when you haven't given me anything to work with other than generalisations and empty statements, which is exactly what you were complaining about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/7/2017 at 1:48 PM, Skynstein said:

And to @Lord Raven:Anyway, speaking of left in America is indeed difficult because the Democratic party isn't exactly left, they try "lefty" things but they're tame, as during the Cold War there was a literal effort to eliminate the left from the country. America is, thus, pretty much its own thing, with the Republicans being right-wing "proper" and the Democrats more of a center party with very slight leftist connotations. But the leftist and far-leftist vote Democrat because the Democrats found it could get them some extra votes if they catered to these people, not unlike Trump massaging far-right extremists and all the filth that comes with them.Even the far-left in the US are not communists, because they love the goodies of capitalism. But they do behave much the same way Marxist groups all over the world do. Their brand of socialism is a result of people stuffing Marxism where it shouldn't have been. Class struggle is a concept of economics, then they apply to race, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identification, you name it. The result is disastrous because Marx wasn't exactly a democrat, he was skeptical of democracy, otherwise he wouldn't have suggested revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat as means to erase capitalist mentality from society. I actually find Marx's economic theory very interesting, if outdated, and I don't like to see right-wingers blame him for misuse of his theory by people born more than 100 years after his death.

as a marxist, this post is like the most incoherent thing i've ever read anywhere

socialism only recently stopped being a toxic word in america because of sanders, but marxism/communism hasn't been a remotely significant component of the left since like the black panthers in the 70s.  

Edited by Radiant head

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...