Dr. Tarrasque Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) DeSantis makes monkey comment and of course he attempts to clarify that he's not racist. Later on, shit comes up suggesting that he's a facebook moderator in a hate group. Note that the article says 52 Admins but if you go to the group itself, you'll find 51 and DeSantis isn't even in the group so it's either he left or the report is fake but I'm more convinced it's the former. If only the Wayback Machine worked on facebook... guess we'll just have to go with the "endorsement". Edited August 29, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said: DeSantis makes monkey comment and of course he attempts to clarify that he's not racist. Later on, shit comes up suggesting that he's a facebook moderator in a hate group. Note that the article says 52 Admins but if you go to the group itself, you'll find 51 and DeSantis isn't even in the group so it's either he left or the report is fake but I'm more convinced it's the former. If only the Wayback Machine worked on facebook... It's insane how little self-awareness these people have. There are hundreds of words he could have used in place of "monkey", but he conspicuously chose to use it in context of his opponent being a black progressive. The argument that this isn't racist fell apart the second he decided to not use any of those hundreds of other words. Edited August 29, 2018 by Slumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Slumber said: I can't imagine I think everyone is aware of how much of a monster Arpaio is, Sure, maybe not across the country. But Maricopa County is where much of the population of this state is, and they really do not like him. He is basically disgraced there. Pima County (where I live right now) is generally pretty blue to begin with, and Tucson is only 30-40 miles from the US-Mexico border. They would never elect Arpaio in the first place. Every other county is not that populated. Edited August 30, 2018 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Lord Raven said: Sure, maybe not across the country. But Maricopa County is where much of the population of this state is, and they really do not like him. He is basically disgraced there. Pima County (where I live right now) is generally pretty blue to begin with, and Tucson is only 30-40 miles from the US-Mexico border. They would never elect Arpaio in the first place. Every other county is not that populated. I think I might have backspaced a few words when I was typing that post and didn't catch it. It was supposed to be more like "I can't imagine there's anyone who isn't aware of how much of a monster Arpaio is". I live across the country and I'm well aware of how notorious he is. Trump pardoning him was considered questionable even on the red side(From what I hear). Edited August 30, 2018 by Slumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 8/28/2018 at 1:21 PM, expshare said: I never said that the US went to the Middle East just to kill off kids. In fact I specifically corrected someone else for saying that I said that. Also, pointing out that children were being killed and that this was known and barely discussed is not an appeal to emotions. It's pointing out relevant facts for the question on whether or not the war was justified. You have to take account of the positives and the negatives. I'm putting you on ignore for repeating a misreading of my writings and for telling me that my "appeal to emotion" is not welcome, as if you have some kind of authority over me, and as if I made a fallacious appeal to emotions. I got an A+ in advanced logic and I know how fallacies work. I made none. I'm taking my leave from this forum, as it has turned into a waste of my time and energy that is better spent elsewhere. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. (and if you post in here again, I'm banning you, so that you DON'T return - you're being petty to the point where you're no longer productive) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 it's extremely tough to argue the use of the atomic bombs, especially 2, were justified. was there a decent (enough) military reasoning behind the use? maybe, sure. i'm not certain, especially looking back, but even at the time, that its use was justified or is justified. then again, i'm not certain really any bombings are justified. a political fb group member's opinion on mccain, which i find myself not disagreeing with... John McCain fought tooth and nail to make sure that people like my late father would die of preventable illnesses they couldn’t afford to treat and that people like my mother would drive their families into medical bankruptcy as a result of an aggressive stomach tumor and a protracted hospital stay. Were he content to enjoy his ill-gotten fruits outside of the legislative sphere, I would have begrudged him little in his decline. Were he merely a two-term stooge of the financial industry cut from a common bipartisan cloth, I could chuckle at his death but have some level of compassion for his situation. But this is a man who - aside from voting against MLK day as a holiday, and fuck anyone who suggests an “evolution” on such an issue is possible while holding office all the time - worked tirelessly until his last day in the Senate to propagate violence across the globe, to pilfer the third world of what little resource wealth it doesn’t have, to suffocate American citizens under a blanket of police surveillance and data mining, and to deprive every American from the basic modern liberties of health care and education. I do not need to lie about McCain to sully him. I do not need to commit libel to invite heaping scorn from merely relitigating his atrocious record as a humanitarian and representative of the best interests of the people. Everyone who cries loudest about the insidious creep of “fake news” weeps most openly over the passing of what can most charitably be described as a terrifically compromised fossil with a singular focus on erasing brown lives abroad. News that paints a such a genuine and heartfelt proponent of war crimes, baseless invasions that slaughter hundreds of thousands, and “100-year wars” as a lion of political independence and steadfast courage is faker than the fakest Russian-funded Blacktivist web-page could ever dream of being. There is no “Fairness Doctrine” to the media portrayal of McCain. It is a post-wasabi diarrhea of platitudes and bipartisan gladhanding. Events such as these are used to bring us all together as Americans and remind us of how similar we really are as police increasingly tighten the vise around the necks of the poor and former Obama Treasury Secretaries lead ten-figure firms that send predatory loans to the same families made destitute by their policies and/or negligence. The runway of our booming economy was foamed with the turmoil and upheaval forced upon millions after millions of families - overwhelmingly black and Latino, mind you - and you must not be angry about this because everyone agrees that McCain was a hero. Even Bernie Sanders, socialist that he might sometimes pretend to be, is convinced of redemptive qualities within John McCain’s character. If those qualities exist, then they must be juxtaposed against the absolute shame of his tenure as a legislator and public voice for the people to digest. To do otherwise is to erase the death perpetrated against countless families both at home and abroad as a result of his campaigning. Condolences to his family. Like Reagan, I’m glad he’s dead. I want to know what all of your reactions will be when Trump dies, because nothing he has done (please miss me with that white collar financial crimes shit, his money has always been dirty) is anywhere close to as bad as Iraq. If you think blowjob hush money is a greater treason than a minor genocide, then I don’t know what to tell you. Oh, yes I do. Go cry over John McCain’s death some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 @Phoenix Wright who is that post addressed to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: I want to know what all of your reactions will be when Trump dies, because nothing he has done (please miss me with that white collar financial crimes shit, his money has always been dirty) is anywhere close to as bad as Iraq. If you're gonna rag on politicians for Iraq, a large swath of the Democrats deserve it as well for supporting it at the time, including Hillary. Unlike some neo-conservatives to this day (John Bolton), McCain actually admitted the Iraq war was a mistake. It's not necessarily wrong that Iraq was more horrible than any single one thing Trump has done, but he's certainly trying his hardest to escalate in other regions and bring more troops to Afghanistan 17 years after the war started... Edited August 30, 2018 by Edgelord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: it's extremely tough to argue the use of the atomic bombs, especially 2, were justified. was there a decent (enough) military reasoning behind the use? maybe, sure. i'm not certain, especially looking back, but even at the time, that its use was justified or is justified. then again, i'm not certain really any bombings are justified. I mean the way I see it if there's military reasoning behind using them then using them is justified. If using the atomic bombs in that situation wasn't justified nothing could have been justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: Condolences to his family. Like Reagan, I’m glad he’s dead. I want to know what all of your reactions will be when Trump dies, because nothing he has done (please miss me with that white collar financial crimes shit, his money has always been dirty) is anywhere close to as bad as Iraq. If you think blowjob hush money is a greater treason than a minor genocide, then I don’t know what to tell you. The statements made here are technically correct, the war on Iraq is indeed much worse than the hush money and a lot of the scandals that Donald Trump is facing scrutiny for, I do not contest this. Maybe I'm misinterpreting or reading this entire quote wrong, but I do take issue with the implication here that McCain is a worse person than Trump (also, I'm not sure if on this bit these are your own words or you're quoting somebody else but regardless...). Let's be clear here: I do not condone the war on Iraq or McCain's "warmongering" history, as @Edgelord pointed out, the war on Iraq is something the Democrats deserve some of the flak too, it is something the United States as a country deserves flak for and should be labeled as a great error/mistake in our history. My intent is to argue against the implication of McCain < Trump by suggesting why I think McCain > Trump as the notion that "What has happened on Iraq is worse than the hush money" downplays how bad Trump actually is. 1. Trump is practically if not technically a warmonger as well, there's a lot of shit that's visible to us because of leaks and Trump's big mouth but not everything is. We do know however that he wanted to invade Venezuela, he bombed Syria after a suggestion from Fox and Friends and there's 2 countries he's being provocative with where you can tell he's just itching for war: one is Iran and the other is North Korea. John Bolton is his National Security adviser and you can bank on the fact that if Trump had the right to declare war and NOT congress, we would be at war with Iran and possibly with North Korea in 2017. Arguably, Trump's attempts at diplomacy with North Korea and handling of Iran could stem from Putin's influence, he's practically doing that man's bidding to make US look bad. 2. McCain makes clear actions demonstrating that he stands with the country, our Democracy and our allies. Trump on the other hand shits on our allies, coddles up to dictators and specially Russia, mocks due process and our constitution which is probably one of the main aspects at play that's keeping him president instead of just being jail or assassinated by people who believe in the constitution. 3. Trump IS racist and he's a voice for the alt-right, white supremacists, neo-nazis and anything close to it as the man is a fool intent on self-serving his pathetic ego. Alt-right REJECTS McCain. You could argue that Trump hasn't publicly endorsed a neo-nazi or white supremacy running for office, but that's currently debatable.When asked questions regarding that crowd, he tends to ignore them. As of late and throughout his political career, he's been using more and more of their rhetoric and appealing to their values with situations like the infamous "very fine people on both sides", the South Africa "white genocide" that the US Embassy itself is rejecting, his illegal immigration rhetoric consisting of estimates from "FAIR", an organization that's generally considered a hate group. Arguably, Trump's use of right-wing media for his talking points, as evidenced by his recent attacks on Google, are a product of them being so pro-Trump that you have Fox News employees leaving the network because of the "Pro-Trump propaganda machine" they've become. McCain defended Obama against a racist voter and voted against the Obamacare repeal. 4. The value of their fucking word. I'll keep this short: You can tell me that in those abhorrent Trump tweets, you can find some truths... I won't contest that, "even a broken clock is right twice a day" after all. But anyone who were to argue that Trump isn't a pathological liar, is credible, would be approved for a security clearance if he weren't president and doesn't lie to the American people on a daily basis regardless of party, that person needs to have their head examined. Trump is now arguing that the VIDEO where he admitted to Obstruction of Justice by firing Comey is faked. Again, keeping this short, I could go on for a looooong time. There's just no real comparison between these two men, the media and lots of people are indeed exaggerating on the praising of McCain in the aftermath of his passing and really it's all a product of how low the bar's been set in the Trump era, he's showing shreds of integrity, resistance against brazen attacks on the American people and support for the country as a Republican when other members of his party are being complicit spineless schmucks. Cancer is not enough to describe Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: it's extremely tough to argue the use of the atomic bombs, especially 2, were justified. was there a decent (enough) military reasoning behind the use? maybe, sure. i'm not certain, especially looking back, but even at the time, that its use was justified or is justified. then again, i'm not certain really any bombings are justified. If I was alive at the time, the use of the bomb would be a no brainer. Better the enemy die than my family, my friends, and I. I would be outraged if Truman did not use the bomb to end the war as soon as possible. 7 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: Like Reagan, I’m glad he’s dead. I want to know what all of your reactions will be when Trump dies, because nothing he has done (please miss me with that white collar financial crimes shit, his money has always been dirty) is anywhere close to as bad as Iraq. If you think blowjob hush money is a greater treason than a minor genocide, then I don’t know what to tell you. Oh, yes I do. Go cry over John McCain’s death some more. Trump's time is not up yet, so I would hold off on saying McCain is worse than Trump. I believe McCain genuinely want what is best for America, while I cannot say the same for Trump. It is one thing to have an unintentional huge fuck up, but it is a whole another thing to intentionally and slowly undermine America and betray our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 And I'm sorry, casualties in war will never be a minor genocide and even if it was McCain was not responsible for the policies that killed civilians in Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) Barrack Obama and George W. Bush giving the eulogies at his funeral. Senator McCain died as he lived: a uniter of reasonable men willing to put partisan differences aside to work together in common decency. And a huge throbbing pain-in-the-ass + source of perpetual bellyaching for partisan hacks. R.I.P.--one of the all-time greats. Edited August 30, 2018 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 11 hours ago, eclipse said: @Phoenix Wright who is that post addressed to? no one? 10 hours ago, Edgelord said: If you're gonna rag on politicians for Iraq, a large swath of the Democrats deserve it as well for supporting it at the time, including Hillary. Unlike some neo-conservatives to this day (John Bolton), McCain actually admitted the Iraq war was a mistake. It's not necessarily wrong that Iraq was more horrible than any single one thing Trump has done, but he's certainly trying his hardest to escalate in other regions and bring more troops to Afghanistan 17 years after the war started... who said this individual doesn't rag on dems, including both clintons? admitting to a mistake of that magnitude doesn't make him a better person. why does saying "i'm sorry" matter here? 8 hours ago, blah the Prussian said: I mean the way I see it if there's military reasoning behind using them then using them is justified. If using the atomic bombs in that situation wasn't justified nothing could have been justified. but is the reasoning sound? is it accurate? i'm not so certain. a blanket statement like that allows a military to do whatever it wants. 6 hours ago, XRay said: If I was alive at the time, the use of the bomb would be a no brainer. Better the enemy die than my family, my friends, and I. I would be outraged if Truman did not use the bomb to end the war as soon as possible. Trump's time is not up yet, so I would hold off on saying McCain is worse than Trump. I believe McCain genuinely want what is best for America, while I cannot say the same for Trump. It is one thing to have an unintentional huge fuck up, but it is a whole another thing to intentionally and slowly undermine America and betray our country. your family, friends, nor you would have been in any danger. i honestly cannot believe the atomic bombs still get support like this to this day. do you all support the bombings of tokyo too? london? berlin? do you all support the use of agent orange? do you support gassing the enemy? biological warfare? i mean wtf 6 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said: The statements made here are technically correct, the war on Iraq is indeed much worse than the hush money and a lot of the scandals that Donald Trump is facing scrutiny for, I do not contest this. Maybe I'm misinterpreting or reading this entire quote wrong, but I do take issue with the implication here that McCain is a worse person than Trump (also, I'm not sure if on this bit these are your own words or you're quoting somebody else but regardless...). Let's be clear here: I do not condone the war on Iraq or McCain's "warmongering" history, as @Edgelord pointed out, the war on Iraq is something the Democrats deserve some of the flak too, it is something the United States as a country deserves flak for and should be labeled as a great error/mistake in our history. My intent is to argue against the implication of McCain < Trump by suggesting why I think McCain > Trump as the notion that "What has happened on Iraq is worse than the hush money" downplays how bad Trump actually is. 1. Trump is practically if not technically a warmonger as well, there's a lot of shit that's visible to us because of leaks and Trump's big mouth but not everything is. We do know however that he wanted to invade Venezuela, he bombed Syria after a suggestion from Fox and Friends and there's 2 countries he's being provocative with where you can tell he's just itching for war: one is Iran and the other is North Korea. John Bolton is his National Security adviser and you can bank on the fact that if Trump had the right to declare war and NOT congress, we would be at war with Iran and possibly with North Korea in 2017. Arguably, Trump's attempts at diplomacy with North Korea and handling of Iran could stem from Putin's influence, he's practically doing that man's bidding to make US look bad. 2. McCain makes clear actions demonstrating that he stands with the country, our Democracy and our allies. Trump on the other hand shits on our allies, coddles up to dictators and specially Russia, mocks due process and our constitution which is probably one of the main aspects at play that's keeping him president instead of just being jail or assassinated by people who believe in the constitution. 3. Trump IS racist and he's a voice for the alt-right, white supremacists, neo-nazis and anything close to it as the man is a fool intent on self-serving his pathetic ego. Alt-right REJECTS McCain. You could argue that Trump hasn't publicly endorsed a neo-nazi or white supremacy running for office, but that's currently debatable.When asked questions regarding that crowd, he tends to ignore them. As of late and throughout his political career, he's been using more and more of their rhetoric and appealing to their values with situations like the infamous "very fine people on both sides", the South Africa "white genocide" that the US Embassy itself is rejecting, his illegal immigration rhetoric consisting of estimates from "FAIR", an organization that's generally considered a hate group. Arguably, Trump's use of right-wing media for his talking points, as evidenced by his recent attacks on Google, are a product of them being so pro-Trump that you have Fox News employees leaving the network because of the "Pro-Trump propaganda machine" they've become. McCain defended Obama against a racist voter and voted against the Obamacare repeal. 4. The value of their fucking word. I'll keep this short: You can tell me that in those abhorrent Trump tweets, you can find some truths... I won't contest that, "even a broken clock is right twice a day" after all. But anyone who were to argue that Trump isn't a pathological liar, is credible, would be approved for a security clearance if he weren't president and doesn't lie to the American people on a daily basis regardless of party, that person needs to have their head examined. Trump is now arguing that the VIDEO where he admitted to Obstruction of Justice by firing Comey is faked. Again, keeping this short, I could go on for a looooong time. There's just no real comparison between these two men, the media and lots of people are indeed exaggerating on the praising of McCain in the aftermath of his passing and really it's all a product of how low the bar's been set in the Trump era, he's showing shreds of integrity, resistance against brazen attacks on the American people and support for the country as a Republican when other members of his party are being complicit spineless schmucks. Cancer is not enough to describe Trump. the alt-right is stupid. what they think of mccain is irrelevant. the poster argued that mccain furthered their causes and then some. 2 hours ago, blah the Prussian said: And I'm sorry, casualties in war will never be a minor genocide and even if it was McCain was not responsible for the policies that killed civilians in Iraq. you have way too much of a hardon for the military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: who said this individual doesn't rag on dems, including both clintons? admitting to a mistake of that magnitude doesn't make him a better person. why does saying "i'm sorry" matter here? It's a good thing I suppose, but Trump as much as he likes to lie to say he was against Iraq from the jump, if he actually was in politics at the time, he would have voted the same way as McCain. Trying to compare the two seems foolish. And 80% of Americans at one point supported Bush going into Iraq. If you start with that you're going to be judging a lot of Americans without the hindsight they would shortly receive. Which I mean, is fine with me. Because I don't agree with McCain or any decisions to go into Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRay Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 39 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: your family, friends, nor you would have been in any danger. i honestly cannot believe the atomic bombs still get support like this to this day. do you all support the bombings of tokyo too? london? berlin? do you all support the use of agent orange? do you support gassing the enemy? biological warfare? i mean wtf If I was alive at that time, how do I know that I, my family, or my friends would not die while invading Japan? While our losses was nothing compared to the Soviet Union, our Marines took very high casualties claiming Pacific islands. Claiming Japan the old fashioned way would cause a much higher death toll. Do I support unrestricted warfare during WWII? Of course I do. While America was still racist and fucked up back then, it is hell of a lot better than Nazi Germany. Segregation and internment camps were bad, but that is infinitely better than being sent to concentration camps to be exterminated. Better the enemy die than fellow Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Phoenix Wright said: the alt-right is stupid. Agreed. 1 hour ago, Phoenix Wright said: what they think of mccain is irrelevant. the poster argued that mccain furthered their causes and then some. I disagree, the alt-right's opinion of a politician serves as a tell to how dangerous they can be if left unchecked and which people in power you should look to remove if you seek to do away with the racism in the country and work towards the equality the declaration of independence alludes to. The alt-right is dangerous, stupid but dangerous. The right-wing can project that the "left is violent" is all they want but the reality is that alt-right would be the most likely instigator/starter of riots or anything resembling a civil war in the country over Trump. Now here's a sample of the Democrats being naive and stupid Edited August 30, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: but is the reasoning sound? is it accurate? i'm not so certain. a blanket statement like that allows a military to do whatever it wants. 17 hours ago, XRay said: Well, but the way you said it implied that even granted that the use of the bombs had sound military reasoning behind them they wouldn't be justified("bombing people is never justified") which is what I take issue with. In this case, I think that the bombs had sound military reasoning behind them. In other cases, such as, in fact, the use of drones in Iraq, I don't think the military reasoning is enough to justify it. 11 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: you have way too much of a hardon for the military. To be clear I have never nor will never support the Iraq War and I think that US troops committed war crimes there. However, that doesn't make it a genocide. 11 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: your family, friends, nor you would have been in any danger. i honestly cannot believe the atomic bombs still get support like this to this day. do you all support the bombings of tokyo too? london? berlin? do you all support the use of agent orange? do you support gassing the enemy? biological warfare? i mean wtf 17 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said: Assuming your family members were slated to invade Japan you can bet your ass they would have been. Not to mention, of course, all the Japanese civilians who would have died. Tokyo: not to the extent it was bombed but yes bombing it was legitimate. Berlin and Germany as a whole: I'm never gonna agree with the people going do it again Bomber Harris but the strategic bombing campaign over Germany was militarily justified and the death toll it caused often gets overinflated by Wehraboos and the like to a ridiculous degree. London: The bombing of London wasn't just an atrocity, it was a stupid idea. Before then, the Germans were only bombing military targets. By including civilian targets(and, unlike Operation Whirlwind, they deliberately targeted civilians) the Germans inflicted less damage on the RAF and lost the Battle of Britain. Everything else: no as chemical and biological weapons are banned. However were the situation to be dire enough(which it never was during WWII) I could see the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 19 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said: Agreed. I disagree, the alt-right's opinion of a politician serves as a tell to how dangerous they can be if left unchecked and which people in power you should look to remove if you seek to do away with the racism in the country and work towards the equality the declaration of independence alludes to. The alt-right is dangerous, stupid but dangerous. The right-wing can project that the "left is violent" is all they want but the reality is that alt-right would be the most likely instigator/starter of riots or anything resembling a civil war in the country over Trump. Now here's a sample of the Democrats being naive and stupid that isn't the point. the point is they're uneducated and likely know very little about mccain's voting record. therefore, their opinions are ignorable. because they should like him, overall. 9 hours ago, blah the Prussian said: Well, but the way you said it implied that even granted that the use of the bombs had sound military reasoning behind them they wouldn't be justified("bombing people is never justified") which is what I take issue with. In this case, I think that the bombs had sound military reasoning behind them. In other cases, such as, in fact, the use of drones in Iraq, I don't think the military reasoning is enough to justify it. To be clear I have never nor will never support the Iraq War and I think that US troops committed war crimes there. However, that doesn't make it a genocide. Assuming your family members were slated to invade Japan you can bet your ass they would have been. Not to mention, of course, all the Japanese civilians who would have died. Tokyo: not to the extent it was bombed but yes bombing it was legitimate. Berlin and Germany as a whole: I'm never gonna agree with the people going do it again Bomber Harris but the strategic bombing campaign over Germany was militarily justified and the death toll it caused often gets overinflated by Wehraboos and the like to a ridiculous degree. London: The bombing of London wasn't just an atrocity, it was a stupid idea. Before then, the Germans were only bombing military targets. By including civilian targets(and, unlike Operation Whirlwind, they deliberately targeted civilians) the Germans inflicted less damage on the RAF and lost the Battle of Britain. Everything else: no as chemical and biological weapons are banned. However were the situation to be dire enough(which it never was during WWII) I could see the argument. targeting civilians is a criminal act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 51 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: targeting civilians is a criminal act. Which neither Operation Whirlwind nor Hiroshima and Nagasaki were designed to do. However, if you're the Soviet Union, and your defeat to the Nazis will mean the literal enslavement of your people, I'm willing to look past targeting civilians if done when the Soviets were losing. There's a difference between civilians as collateral damage(Operation Whirlwind) and civilians as the deliberate targets(the Blitz). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 43 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: targeting civilians is a criminal act. Nagasaki was a major military industrial target. Hiroshima was the site of a naval academy. Neither of those could have, in that time, been referred to as anything less than justifiable military targets. Nowadays? Carpet bombing and especially nuclear bombing aren't necessary to tear down the enemy's infrastructure. Standards have changed, and I doubt Truman having foreknowledge on what exactly would happen would change his decision to bomb either city. It was a tragedy, but it was the last out of a period of 6 years and 1 day of tragedy. It's barbaric and fortunately has not been repeated, but do you think the war-weary US was going to do anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrymidfields Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) Let's face it, even with the two bombs and the invasion of Manchukuo, a good deal of the military did not want to surrender. Look up Kyujo Incident, or for the fellow Japanese audiences, 宮城事件. The other thing is that the US gets a lot of flak for being the only country that happened to actually use the bomb(s). Sure, maybe we need to hold the US Government accountable, but we should be holding UK/France/Russia etc accountable too for their nuclear programs. Heck, as a citizen of Japan, let me point out the hypocrisy of my own proverbial turf here - not only does Japan arguably have the capability to build a bomb (though thankfully public opinion has cooler heads at the moment), she also had a nuclear program during the war. I can argue that, maybe it just happened that the US beat Japan to it. http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805-story.html For Japanese readers:https://www.mag2.com/p/money/20338http://www.sankei.com/life/news/150726/lif1507260018-n1.html Edited September 2, 2018 by henrymidfields Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, Phoenix Wright said: that isn't the point. the point is they're uneducated and likely know very little about mccain's voting record. therefore, their opinions are ignorable. because they should like him, overall. This is my hang up; in terms of a politician's career, the only thing that matters in the end is that person's political views, actions, and voting record, and McCain's views/actions/voting record (amongst other things) paints an overall extremely dire picture, the whitewashing of which demonstrates to me that this fetishism for 'civility' in political discourse is getting extremely out of hand, especially in regards to people like McCain who are at best, only slightly better than typical GOP politicians in regards to policy yet get a pass because they weren't rude whilst saying/doing it. Edited September 1, 2018 by Time the Crestfallen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) On 8/31/2018 at 9:45 PM, blah the Prussian said: Which neither Operation Whirlwind nor Hiroshima and Nagasaki were designed to do. However, if you're the Soviet Union, and your defeat to the Nazis will mean the literal enslavement of your people, I'm willing to look past targeting civilians if done when the Soviets were losing. There's a difference between civilians as collateral damage(Operation Whirlwind) and civilians as the deliberate targets(the Blitz). soviets being desperate doesn't stop it from being a crime. a starving man stealing food is still tried as theft. yes, circumstances are more sympathetic, but targeting civilians is a crime. when over 100k civilians in iraq die as a result of our intervention (the numbers are not certain, that's a low estimate), you think we're doing their job right? were those killings justified? does the number need to be 6 million before you hold the military liable for crimes against humanity? On 8/31/2018 at 9:51 PM, Hylian Air Force said: Nagasaki was a major military industrial target. Hiroshima was the site of a naval academy. Neither of those could have, in that time, been referred to as anything less than justifiable military targets. Nowadays? Carpet bombing and especially nuclear bombing aren't necessary to tear down the enemy's infrastructure. Standards have changed, and I doubt Truman having foreknowledge on what exactly would happen would change his decision to bomb either city. It was a tragedy, but it was the last out of a period of 6 years and 1 day of tragedy. It's barbaric and fortunately has not been repeated, but do you think the war-weary US was going to do anything else? do you think the use of a nuclear weapon is justifiable under any circumstance today? Edited September 2, 2018 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 47 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: soviets being desperate doesn't stop it from being a crime. a starving man stealing food is still tried as theft. yes, circumstances are more sympathetic, but targeting civilians is a crime. Yeah, I guess that's true, but international law is a joke anyway and will never have any effect beyond being a vehicle for victor's justice. If I were a judge in a case where a starving man stole reread I'd let him off with a slap on the wrist. Similarly, I'd let a military commander who targeted civilians when it was absolutely necessary off with a slap on the wrist. 48 minutes ago, Phoenix Wright said: when over 100k civilians in iraq die as a result of our intervention (the numbers are not certain, that's a low estimate), you think we're doing their job right? were those killings justified? does the number need to be 6 million before you hold the military liable for crimes against humanity? On 8/31/2018 at 9:51 PM, Hylian Air Force said: I don't think the military as a whole is liable for crimes against humanity. I think individual war crimes(which there indeed were) should be tried individually. It is not a war crime unless intent to kill civilians can be proven. Those certainly happened in Iraq but I don't think the military as a whole can be accused of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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