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3 hours ago, Soapbar said:

White House says it will not cooperate with the Impeachment Inquiry

This is now a full-on Constitutional Crisis; One branch outright refusing to acknowledge the authority of the other.

It's not an impeachment yet, because the impeachment process hasn't actually started yet. You need to have a majority vote in the House for that. 

There is no Constitutional Crisis™

Does this mean the White House can just not cooperate with Congress investigations? Well, that's been their position throughout the Trump presidency, mostly on the claims of executive privilege. But the courts have consistently found that nonsense, and forced the White House to comply with subpoenas, and forced people to testify before Congress.

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So who's going to fight the next ISIS for us? Trump made it perfectly clear that any poor fool who does our dirty work for us can expect a knife in the back to please a Turkish dictator. This doesn't really give people a lot of motivation to go fight terrorists for us. 

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On 10/9/2019 at 1:54 AM, Excellen Browning said:

It's not an impeachment yet, because the impeachment process hasn't actually started yet. You need to have a majority vote in the House for that. 

There is no Constitutional Crisis™

Does this mean the White House can just not cooperate with Congress investigations? Well, that's been their position throughout the Trump presidency, mostly on the claims of executive privilege. But the courts have consistently found that nonsense, and forced the White House to comply with subpoenas, and forced people to testify before Congress.

The actual vote for articles of impeachment hasn't happened yet-- having them this early would undermine the investigations, for one thing. But the inquiry itself is very much within the articles of the Constitution, as well as the House's own rules, so dismissing their authority can result in the subjects of the inquiry being in contempt of Congress.

And yeah, the White House has zero say on the matter. The letter about refusing to cooperate has the legal defense strength of a roll of toilet paper. If Congress issues subpoenas, ignoring them can result in being arrested by the Capitol Police (the legislative branch's law enforcement agency). 

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10 minutes ago, Johann said:

If Congress issues subpoenas, ignoring them can result in being arrested by the Capitol Police (the legislative branch's law enforcement agency). 

^^^
Daily reminder that these investigations are meaningless and the White House will continue to lie and obstruct until Congress remembers that it has this power.

You ignore a subpoena.
You perjure yourself under oath.
You go to jail.

See--right now no one around Trump is taking this seriously because they've been lying and obstructing for years. And it hasn't happened yet.
And they don't think its ever going to happen. They don't think Pelosi has the stones to do it. 

A reality check is needed. 

The credible threat of prison time is quite literally the only thing professional crooks of this caliber will respect and understand, when deciding whether to comply with their duty under the law or to defy it. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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21 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

^^^
Daily reminder that these investigations are meaningless and the White House will continue to lie and obstruct until Congress remembers that it has this power.

You ignore a subpoena.
You perjure yourself under oath.
You go to jail.

See--right now no one around Trump is taking this seriously because they've been lying and obstructing for years. And it hasn't happened yet.
And they don't think its ever going to happen. They don't think Pelosi has the stones to do it. 

A reality check is needed. 

The credible threat of prison time is quite literally the only thing professional crooks of this caliber will respect and understand, when deciding whether to comply with their duty under the law or to defy it. 

Yeah, this whole thing is almost certainly going to depend on whether or not the House Dems actually use that power to enforce their authority. Otherwise, it would only work if they  got their hands on an incredible amount of valuable testimony and damning evidence (like the full recordings of the calls).

edit: relevant article: Two Giuliani Associates Who Helped Him on Ukraine Charged With Campaign-Finance Violations

Edited by Johann

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

^^^
Daily reminder that these investigations are meaningless and the White House will continue to lie and obstruct until Congress remembers that it has this power.

You ignore a subpoena.
You perjure yourself under oath.
You go to jail.

See--right now no one around Trump is taking this seriously because they've been lying and obstructing for years. And it hasn't happened yet.
And they don't think its ever going to happen. They don't think Pelosi has the stones to do it. 

A reality check is needed. 

The credible threat of prison time is quite literally the only thing professional crooks of this caliber will respect and understand, when deciding whether to comply with their duty under the law or to defy it. 

You are aware that the president has legal immunity and can't be jailed, right? 

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11 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

You are aware that the president has legal immunity and can't be jailed, right? 

The people around him though.

The Barrs. The Giulianis. The Pompeos.  The Kushners.  

You can separate him from his enablers. And you can put the fear of prison into anyone in his sphere of influence that might otherwise be inclined to lie under oath for this president, or ignore subpoenas or destroy evidence or commit some other obstructive act for him.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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7 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

You are aware that the president has legal immunity and can't be jailed, right? 

Not exactly legal immunity per se, there are some limitations as outlined in the Constitution that would warrant removing a president from office. Not to mention, executive privilege ends when a president leaves office, which is an inevitability one way or another. The significance of Congress using the Capitol Police is that they can bring in anybody else without needing the authority of the Executive or Judicial branches, and in a situation like this, that's what would bring him down.

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...lol speak of the devil...

Two associates of Rudy Giuliani just arrested at a New York airport, trying to leave the country with one-way international tickets. 

Charged with conspiracy, falsifying records, and lying to federal investigators. 

So it begins.

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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35 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

...lol speak of the devil...

Two associates of Rudy Giuliani just arrested at a New York airport, trying to leave the country with one-way international tickets. 

Charged with conspiracy, falsifying records, and lying to federal investigators. 

So it begins.

 

BuT HuNtEr BiDeN! bUt CliNtOn!

With this and the news that a lot of Trump cronies were traveling to Ukraine for their private enrichment makes it pretty ironic they tried to spin the Democrats having shady dealings in Ukraine. 

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Not to mention the SDNY will go after Trump after his term is over if he doesn't get re-elected. Plus if congress starts jailing those fuckers defying a subpoena, they may turn on Trump in order to save their own hide and provide more material for the impeachment articles, adding to the pressure Republicans in the Senate will face when it's time for the trial.

It's deliciously ironic actually, how the memo suggesting a sitting president cannot be indicted will end up damning the Senate Republicans (at least in the eyes of those still in Reality) more than if Trump had just been indicted by Mueller.

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With this and the news that a lot of Trump cronies were traveling to Ukraine for their private enrichment makes it pretty ironic they tried to spin the Democrats having shady dealings in Ukraine. 

Projection, hypocrisy and playing victim is what Republicans do best.

EDIT: The Trumpians are actually chanting "LOCK HIM UP" when Biden's mentioned at a Trump rally. Not surprising but you'd think they'd at least pretend to have a reason like with Hillary.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Projection, hypocrisy and playing victim is what Republicans do best.

EDIT: The Trumpians are actually chanting "LOCK HIM UP" when Biden's mentioned at a Trump rally. Not surprising but you'd think they'd at least pretend to have a reason like with Hillary.

I've seen people who genuinely believe that everything we know that is negative about Trump or the GOP has been completely fabricated. I don't mean just Ukraine and Russia stuff, but even things going way back well before 2016. You literally cannot discuss anything with them because any source you provide is dismissed as fake. They are happy to go down with the ship.

edit: Almost forgot that Yovanovitch testifies tomorrow, so a decent chance we'll learn some new stuff

Edited by Johann

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How quickly is Trump going to dump Giuliani? And how much whiplash will there be if America's Fallen Mayor gets indicted?

Will Trump have an "I feel badly for him" *dangles pardon* moment for Giuliani? Or will he not resort to that this time if it comes to it?

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I don't doubt that there'll be a "I feel bad for him" moment, but considering that Manafort and Cohen didn't get pardoned, I don't think Giuliani will get one. For now, at least. Who knows what Trump'll do when impeachment proceedings start happening.

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23 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

So who's going to fight the next ISIS for us? Trump made it perfectly clear that any poor fool who does our dirty work for us can expect a knife in the back to please a Turkish dictator. This doesn't really give people a lot of motivation to go fight terrorists for us

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Edited by Icelerate

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20 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

And the Kurds fought ISIS with funding from the US. Not sure what you're trying to imply here, but fact of the matter is that the US is allied to both Turkey and several Kurdish factions, and one of them has been a shitty ally for decades now.

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31 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Yeah, they did.

It's still a betrayal of the Kurds, who were also our allies and are being attacked by them.

The reason people are upset is A) Turkey is the aggressor and B) Turkey is way more powerful.

The fast explanation of the situation is:

Both of them are our allies, but Turkey wants to be the US's only ally so that the US will be forced to help them in the future. They are also suffering economic troubles and the president wants something to distract them.

Edited by dragonlordsd

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20 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

And the Kurds fought ISIS with funding from the US. Not sure what you're trying to imply here, but fact of the matter is that the US is allied to both Turkey and several Kurdish factions, and one of them has been a shitty ally for decades now.

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG? 

16 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Yeah, they did.

It's still a betrayal of the Kurds, who were also our allies and are being attacked by them.

 The reason people are upset is A) Turkey is the aggressor and B) Turkey is way more powerful.

Well the US did arm the Kurds with a lot of weaponry so it's not like they are totally defenseless. I think it is totally understandable that Trump doesn't want to risk a military confrontation with Turkey. 

Turkey being way more powerful doesn't necessarily mean the SDF can't defend itself. The Houthis have been able to defend against the Saudis and the Taliban are doing just fine despite massive airstrikes. 

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14 hours ago, Johann said:

I've seen people who genuinely believe that everything we know that is negative about Trump or the GOP has been completely fabricated. I don't mean just Ukraine and Russia stuff, but even things going way back well before 2016. You literally cannot discuss anything with them because any source you provide is dismissed as fake. They are happy to go down with the ship.

This is from Bloomberg's interviews with a 44-year-old Trump supporter:

Quote

“This makes me more, way more energized, as if I wasn’t energized enough,” he said. “I love Donald Trump unapologetically. I love the fact that he fights back, that he sticks up for the people, he doesn’t take sh*t, and if someone throws him sh*t he throws it right back.”

Quote

“Is there anything he could do to make him lose my vote? Not a thing,” Chaney said. “He could sprout horns — I’m voting for him, twice.

 

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52 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Yes though I would hesitate to deem Turkey a particularly trustworthy partner. There was a lot of talk about them letting western Jihad travelers moving through Turkey towards Syria relatively uninterrupted since they'd go on to kill Kurd's and Assad's soldiers. 

It is good that Turkey did hold military operations against IS(something Europe hardly seemed to do) but that doesn't mean their invasion and annexation of Kurdish lands is justified. Apparently Erdogan wants to settle these Kurdish lands with Arab refugee's which falls under some definition of ethnic cleansing. 

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3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG? 

Well the US did arm the Kurds with a lot of weaponry so it's not like they are totally defenseless. I think it is totally understandable that Trump doesn't want to risk a military confrontation with Turkey. 

Turkey being way more powerful doesn't necessarily mean the SDF can't defend itself. The Houthis have been able to defend against the Saudis and the Taliban are doing just fine despite massive airstrikes. 

What I want is an American intervention and mediation between two allies to force some kind of negotiation and a cessation of hostilities. Abandoning our allies, throwing responsibility into the air, and leaving a mess for others to clean up is unbecoming of the United States.

We put our weight behind Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm. Vietnam did not turn out well, but at least we moved a lot of refugees over to the United States and cleaned up some of our mess. I want us to do the same with the Middle East. Our occupation of Iraq was half hearted at best and we should have poured money into the country to at least rebuild their infrastructure. Leaving Iraq was absolutely stupid and it caused ISIS to rise in the power vacuum.

The least we can do is to send a token force over to shield the Kurds so Turkey cannot attack without putting our men in danger.

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25 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG?

Are you willfully ignorant of the last 100-120 years of history between Turks and Kurds?

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Trump has commercial real estate in Istanbul, and thats all you really need to know to understand his motivation for what hes doing with the Turks and the Kurds right now.

This is what a purely transactional foreign policy looks like.

No loyalties. No values.  Every partnership and alliance is worth only how it can be used for immediate personal gain.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

No loyalties. No values.  Every partnership and alliance is worth only how it can be used for immediate personal gain.

Which Netanyahu prior to the Kurds, had recently learned, even if he is clinging on to power and the hot drop isn't as sharply devastating.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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Thats also btw why we have The Emoluments Clause.

And why its in The Constitution that the president is supposed to divest himself of private business interests that could create a conflict-of-interest with his public duty to craft foreign policy + faithfully execute the law of the land--because even back than people knew this is the kind of naked corruption that you get when you don't respect that barrier.

And if Congress was worth a damn that in-and-of-itself would have been grounds for Articles of Impeachment. Violating that constitutional mandate every single day since he took office, and openly using public office for private gain.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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