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We can acknowledge Bush’s flaws without equalizing him to Trump. The depths of illicit misuse of office + attacks on democratic values and institutions coming out of this White House are without equal in prior administrations, and cannot be normalized by equating them.

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10 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

We can acknowledge Bush’s flaws without equalizing him to Trump. The depths of illicit misuse of office + attacks on democratic values and institutions coming out of this White House are without equal in prior administrations, and cannot be normalized by equating them.

Not just the White House. Any activist, journalist, etc that understands the constitution and the founding fathers' disdain for an out of control executive branch should put the spotlight on people like Nunes, McConnell, Barr, Gohmert and Jim Jordan for enabling the notion of "Accept God Emperor Trump or we'll have a Civil War" and encourage that these fuckers get voted out.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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19 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Anyone watch any of the impeachment hearing stuff?  The republitards only defense seems to be bashing the witnesses and talking of lunatic conspiracies.  The whole party is garbage.

Been catching a little bit of the hearings after work. See nothing that changes the presumed state-of-play going in. (i.e. Trump gets impeached in The House and acquitted by The Senate on party line vote)
 
I will say that some of those recent election results in Bucks County, PA and the Virginia house races should have Trumpers very, very nervous about what a vote to acquit on party lines is going to mean for their future prospects of holding the Senate.
 
But I will also admit that in at least one key respect, the Democrats are misplaying their hand here.
 
If they wanted these impeachment hearings to be big, explosive attention-grabbers; they needed to fight to enforce subpoenas and haul the big names in.
 
...the Rudy Guilianis...
...the Mick Mulvaneys...
...the John Boltons...
 
Americans worship celebrity. They pay attention when famous names speak.
 
They were never going to pay attention to ambassadors and state department staffers
_____

By all accounts, the highlight of what they've line up so far is supposed to be Ambassador Sondland's testimony today.

Keep an eye on that 
 

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On 11/19/2019 at 9:05 AM, Excellen Browning said:

You sure as shit weren't capable of stopping a civil war from happening.

There is not much we can do if we are pulling out. We cannot project power and security if we are not physically there.

On 11/19/2019 at 2:32 PM, eclipse said:

his reign left shit like the Patriot Act lying around.

That can be repealed or legislated away, although it does not look like it is on anyone's priority list right now.

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A 3 month extension of the Patriot Act appears to be included in a recent spending bill and in the house it was pretty much passed on party line votes with only a few Democrats like AOC and Ilhan Omar opposing it.

Including that in the bill makes absolutely no sense and the Democrats that voted for it deserve all the shit they get in reference to that. Why give such ammunition to the Republicans?

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New meme Template: 

Devin Nunes's face when Ambassador Sondland testified there was a quid-pro-quo to hold up aid to Ukraine in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens. And that Donald Trump, Mike Pence, Mick Mulvaney, Rick Perry, and Rudy Giuliani all knew about it.  

Image result for devin nunes face expression"

3h3ara.jpg


...I trust the internet will use this responsibly....

3h3bxz.jpg

Edited by Shoblongoo

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

If Sondland is being described as the Nixon equivalent to John Dean, what does that make Fiona Hill who is straight up shitting on Devin Nunes and not beating around the bush on the subject of Burisma referring to the Bidens. I can only imagine how many right-wingers are calling for this woman's head.

Jimmy Kimmel did a bit yesterday where he went out and asked Trump supporters what they thought of Trump doing [insert White House scandal here].

But there was a trick. Instead of describing the events of Trump's current scandals, he described the events of Watergate.

Trump supporters didn't pick up on this. And defended the official misconduct + abuses of office that occurred during Watergate as unimpeachable, when they thought it was Trump that was doing it and not Nixon.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-nixon-kimmel_n_5dd52667e4b010f3f1d062ef
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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51 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Devin Nunes's face when Ambassador Sondland testified there was a quid-pro-quo to hold up aid to Ukraine in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into the Bidens. And that Donald Trump, Mike Pence, Mick Mulvaney, Rick Perry, and Rudy Giuliani all knew about it.  

Watching it in motion is really incredible.

BmB1UCy.gif

I haven't been able to watch or even listen to these testimonies much, and have had to settle for NPR recaps on the ride home. I was (not) surprised to hear a a Republican trying to gaslight the interviewer in a segment this morning while driving into work.

Anyway. from what I'm hearing Fiona Hill is bringing the heat today, and something about Holmes pointing out some contradictions in Sondland's testimonies? Sounded like Sondland was trying to cover his own ass and he's in as deep as we'd all have guessed from the start.

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44 minutes ago, Johann said:

Anyway. from what I'm hearing Fiona Hill is bringing the heat today, and something about Holmes pointing out some contradictions in Sondland's testimonies? Sounded like Sondland was trying to cover his own ass and he's in as deep as we'd all have guessed from the start.

Lets not forget who exactly Sondland is in all this.

He was a corporate guy who made his money in the hotel industry, who had never done any government or diplomatic work of the kind that would qualify a man for an ambassadorship.

Then he  paid bribe money 'donated'  $1 million dollars to Trump's inauguration fund.

Then Trump made him our ambassador to all of Europe. (a man less charitable than myself might call that buying and selling of public office---but hey--details) 
___________

So at the one hand, there's the issue with the drug-deal they were cooking up to extort a foreign government into intervening in our election again on behalf of the Trump campaign by going after Joe Biden.  

...but even beyond that....

There's the underlying issue of how the people involved just shouldn't have even been there to begin with. And everything around this White House is just corruption layered on top of corruption layered on top of more corruption.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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That face screams "stick a fork in me, I'm done!" from a mile away.

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New stuff today seems--not as important, but still juicy 

Nunes and Jordan getting roasted by the witnesses for advancing false narratives during questioning is a thing to see  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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4 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Then Trump made him our ambassador to all of Europe. (a man less charitable than myself might call that buying and selling of public office---but hey--details) 

Allow me.

Trump's taking of money in exchange for political appointments is blatant bribery. Sondland had no business being there but for Trump deciding to appoint him after the man gave him money.

Then again, Sondland's far from the only person who should absolutely not be in any position in US, much less world politics. I don't think I need to point them out, they've been quite capable at showing themselves up up to now.

As an aside (and relevant much further down the road), I remember seeing someone suggest that the Senate could have a simple majority vote to make their impeachment vote private ballot, which could open them up to hide some of them making the active choice to remove Trump. Now, I don't believe it for a second, but is that possible?

Edited by Dayni

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Haven't ambassadorships served as a plume of political patronage for decades? Not to excuse Agent Orange for doing so.

 

I haven't been watching the impeachment hearings, it's dreary news that I can't quite feel good with. I like the news, but this is the kind I don't care so much for.

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1 hour ago, Dayni said:

As an aside (and relevant much further down the road), I remember seeing someone suggest that the Senate could have a simple majority vote to make their impeachment vote private ballot, which could open them up to hide some of them making the active choice to remove Trump. Now, I don't believe it for a second, but is that possible?

Here's the piece discussing that matter:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/12/path-to-removing-donald-trump-from-office-229911

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

New stuff today seems--not as important, but still juicy 

Nunes and Jordan getting roasted by the witnesses for advancing false narratives during questioning is a thing to see  

This was fucking great.  Jim Jordan in particular is so damn repulsive, he just yells and accuses and has no respect.  Every witness should tell the damn pedophile to fuck off.  Republitards will probably be all for it, look at how strong Jim is, look at how tough!  Get a real fucking argument conservatives and maybe those who aren't brainwashed fools will take what you say seriously.  

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I think there was a poll a while back that said that having public hearings would not change public opinion, since opinion is largely divided by party lines, so do these hearings actually do anything meaningful? Like, how bad does the evidence have to be for moderate Republicans to break with Trump? Since Republicans have clamored for public hearings, I assume they think what Trump has done and the evidence they have seen is not bad enough for moderate Republicans and independent voters to turn against him.

Edited by XRay

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19 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think there was a poll a while back that said that having public hearings would not change public opinion, since opinion is largely divided by party lines, so do these hearings actually do anything meaningful? Like, how bad does the evidence have to be for moderate Republicans to break with Trump? Since Republicans have clamored for public hearings, I assume they think what Trump has done and the evidence they have seen is not bad enough for moderate Republicans and independent voters to turn against him.

I think it will change the opinion for people who are neutral who sometimes vote R and sometimes D, those that aren't really aligned by any party.  As for your other question, how bad.  That is a good one which doesn't have an easy answer.  If Trump actually shot someone on 5th avenue, an unarmed child lets say, and it was recorded on video and there was concrete DNA evidence....would that be enough?  I think maybe cause it would cause most people to turn against him and so the party would also and force him to resign.  Essentially it has to be something extreme enough that it causes not only all/most moderates but most of the Republican voters to turn against him.  Then the Senators gain nothing by defending Trump, instead they will likely lose their seats and hurt the rep of the party even among lifelong Republicans, so they would either impeach him or force him to resign behind closed doors. 

This was pretty damn convincing though, and I think he presents it in a very convincing way and in a way that is easy for most everyone to understand.  

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36 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think there was a poll a while back that said that having public hearings would not change public opinion, since opinion is largely divided by party lines, so do these hearings actually do anything meaningful? Like, how bad does the evidence have to be for moderate Republicans to break with Trump? Since Republicans have clamored for public hearings, I assume they think what Trump has done and the evidence they have seen is not bad enough for moderate Republicans and independent voters to turn against him.

The way the Democrats hyper-focused on just the Ukraine scandal for impeachment see it, they need to have these public hearings for the American people to see for themselves what is happening. It's hard to tell if public opinion will be swayed as they hope but the polling that has come out so far (which probably doesn't include yesterday and today's testimony) actually sees a drop in those favoring Impeachment.

The way I see it that it's good to have the transparency and the testimony for those of us watching to consume and see what's coming out of it but the testimony from these folks that people don't really know just doesn't seem like the big-bang effect the Democrats are hoping to achieve because even if people are watching these hearings, many of them won't make up their minds until they see what comes out of their echo chamber. For example, the morons that flock to John Solomon's BS will stand by him just because he's Pro-Trump and has been spewing crap Trumpists want to hear because the notion of a deep-state out to get Trump and any Pro-Trump mind is now ingrained into these people's identity. Even if Trump is impeached and by some miracle convicted by the Senate, they'll still believe it's the work of the deep-state and you just gotta keep pushing forward and beat them whenever they prop up their next clown.

Let's hope this week's testimony sways public opinion enough to bring hell to the Senate for acquitting Trump if they do.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Like, how bad does the evidence have to be for moderate Republicans to break with Trump?

Do you think maybe it is possible that people who are moderate are still willing to vote for him because that is how much they disagree with the policies and ideas being espoused by the current Dem party. So regardless of how bad his crimes are, that isn't enough to get them on board with and give the green light to the current Dems who want to take the country in a direction they don't like. Is it that hard to imagine that it isn't a vote for him, but against dem's ideas. I'd also like to point out literally it is day in and day out hate him for this, hate him for that, hate him cause of reason 1, hate him for reason 2, hate him for reason 3, hate him for reason 4, hate him today, hate him tomorrow, hate him next week, hate him next month, hate him next year, let's talk about him forever, let's not stop mentioning how bad he is, let's remind people how bad he is, and so forth. I swear. All of you that have been commenting for the last past few pages have me imaging you guys foaming out the mouth when you talk about this dude. It is very unhealthy. Y'all have some weird relationship with him. 

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

That is a good one which doesn't have an easy answer.  If Trump actually shot someone on 5th avenue, an unarmed child lets say, and it was recorded on video and there was concrete DNA evidence....would that be enough?  I think maybe cause it would cause most people to turn against him and so the party would also and force him to resign.  Essentially it has to be something extreme enough that it causes not only all/most moderates but most of the Republican voters to turn against him. 

It wouldn't change a thing. Like I said above, a vote for him doesn't necessarily equate to agreeing with or liking the guy. You don't vote for Mr. Trump. Just cause he face is plastered all over the news doesn't mean that he is forever the representative of the party forever. Once he leaves, a new face will be what represents the party. Neither party is "for" the people. But one is the lesser of two evils. What logic and reasoning is used to reach that conclusion is dependent on the person you are addressing. So have fun combing thru answers and trying to put people in a box/category for simplifying purposes. This forum isn't very inviting to moderates let alone republicans. It is more of an echoing chamber. You can't really understand what others think unless you go find them 

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18 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

Do you think maybe it is possible that people who are moderate are still willing to vote for him because that is how much they disagree with the policies and ideas being espoused by the current Dem party. So regardless of how bad his crimes are, that isn't enough to get them on board with and give the green light to the current Dems who want to take the country in a direction they don't like. Is it that hard to imagine that it isn't a vote for him, but against dem's ideas. I'd also like to point out literally it is day in and day out hate him for this, hate him for that, hate him cause of reason 1, hate him for reason 2, hate him for reason 3, hate him for reason 4, hate him today, hate him tomorrow, hate him next week, hate him next month, hate him next year, let's talk about him forever, let's not stop mentioning how bad he is, let's remind people how bad he is, and so forth. I swear. All of you that have been commenting for the last past few pages have me imaging you guys foaming out the mouth when you talk about this dude. It is very unhealthy. Y'all have some weird relationship with him.

. . .and what the fuck is that first sentence?

I mean, are the policies that the Democratic party so much worse than the reason why the impeachment hearing is going forward?  In which case, explain how the hell you came to that conclusion, because this implies that the current policies are better.  Which I can't reconcile in my mind.

And why do we mention Trump with so much adoration?  BECAUSE HE'S THE CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.  Guess who we're blaming for the shitshow that is US politics?

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32 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

Do you think maybe it is possible that people who are moderate are still willing to vote for him because that is how much they disagree with the policies and ideas being espoused by the current Dem party.  

They can get Trump impeached and have Pence be president, then. 

This would have been an okay point to make during or shortly after the election, but at this point there's no good reason not to impeach.

Edited by Excellen Browning

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1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

Do you think maybe it is possible that people who are moderate are still willing to vote for him because that is how much they disagree with the policies and ideas being espoused by the current Dem party.

Polling suggests otherwise, specially when it comes to the ideas by the 2 top contenders that aren't Biden. Polling also suggests that even a Republican majority of voters disagree with certain Trump policies. Here's one such example.

1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

So regardless of how bad his crimes are, that isn't enough to get them on board with and give the green light to the current Dems who want to take the country in a direction they don't like. Is it that hard to imagine that it isn't a vote for him, but against dem's ideas

In addition to ideas brought up by Sanders and Warren polling well, there's also Shoblongoo's earlier post about how people were surveyed about criminal things that Trump has done and made it apparent that they only consider it unimpeachable if it is Trump. It's a cult of personality and the cult wants us to accept a really really low bar

1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

 I'd also like to point out literally it is day in and day out hate him for this, hate him for that, hate him cause of reason 1, hate him for reason 2, hate him for reason 3, hate him for reason 4, hate him today, hate him tomorrow, hate him next week, hate him next month, hate him next year, let's talk about him forever, let's not stop mentioning how bad he is, let's remind people how bad he is, and so forth. I swear. All of you that have been commenting for the last past few pages have me imaging you guys foaming out the mouth when you talk about this dude. It is very unhealthy. Y'all have some weird relationship with him. 

Because day in and day out that orange turd tweets or says lies and bullshit that deserves to be called out and quite frankly, should be suppressed and behind all that are just awful policies, a revolving door of corrupt staff being replaced with worse people and the cherry on top being that the man is a goddamn criminal while having the constant reminder that the people defending him are the same people that day in and day out attacked Obama and spew hypocritical garbage that in a sane reality, would be disqualifying of their positions. We love our country and wish to see it move forward, each day the man is in office spewing conspiracy theories and perpetuating a polarized country that will see nothing done thanks to the obstruction of the Republicans.

Again, the man is a goddamn criminal. Why do we have a criminal president? (rhetorical question, the answer is Republicans and Russia).

1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

This forum isn't very inviting to moderates let alone republicans. It is more of an echoing chamber. You can't really understand what others think unless you go find them 

That would require said moderates and Republicans to stop defending the Republican politicians that claim they're the party of "family values", "law and order", "respects the constitution", "party of fiscal responsibility" and just accept it's all bullshit when the Republicans have given us a man directly opposite to all of that. Oh and you know, stop defending a criminal.

The fact is that anyone can jump into the conversation but there's simply not much to be had if you're just here to defend Trump or the current Republican politicians because they are just that bad. There's also been cases where people come in and use shitty sources like Breitbart to defend Trump. Simply put, to defend Trump is to be expose to the mountain of shit from him that's out in the open unless you're in the right-wing echo chamber.

When it boils down to the worst of one side being Antifa and Political Correctness while the other side has people killing out of bigotry, calls for us to ignore such violence, demands that you embrace God Emperor Trump or we'll have a Civil War, and their politicians cheat their way into power, you'd think it should be pretty fucking clear that one side needs to be booted out and work on their campaign platform to appeal to more voters instead of cheat their way into power.

Under Trump and current Republicans there is simply no progress, slow or swift. There is only regression, increasing polarization and shame. Conservative journalists have dubbed what is supposed to be their own party the "Stupid Party", even when Trump is gone we'll still have them to deal with.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

Do you think maybe it is possible that people who are moderate are still willing to vote for him because that is how much they disagree with the policies and ideas being espoused by the current Dem party. So regardless of how bad his crimes are, that isn't enough to get them on board with and give the green light to the current Dems who want to take the country in a direction they don't like. Is it that hard to imagine that it isn't a vote for him, but against dem's ideas.

The only ideas I do not like coming out of the Democratic Party right now is their stance on guns, but even Republicans are not offering anything better either. I want all types of guns and weaponry to be legal, but I do not see any Republicans making a huge deal to extend the Second Amendment to include things outside of firearms. I also want guns to be regulated like cars for safety and accountability reasons, so people have to register their ownership and all that, but Republicans are obviously not a huge fan of that.

Other than guns, I cannot think of anything that Democrats are proposing right now is worse than Republicans.

Controlling national debt and government spending? Republicans are just as bad as Democrats raising the debt ceiling. Healthcare? If you do the math, while taxes are higher, you are also not paying an arm and leg for health insurance that fucking sucks compared to nationalized healthcare of other countries. Foreign policy? Trump has Putin's dick down his throat and Pooh's honeyed fist up his ass.

1 hour ago, Tediz64 said:

I'd also like to point out literally it is day in and day out hate him for this, hate him for that, hate him cause of reason 1, hate him for reason 2, hate him for reason 3, hate him for reason 4, hate him today, hate him tomorrow, hate him next week, hate him next month, hate him next year, let's talk about him forever, let's not stop mentioning how bad he is, let's remind people how bad he is, and so forth. I swear. All of you that have been commenting for the last past few pages have me imaging you guys foaming out the mouth when you talk about this dude. It is very unhealthy. Y'all have some weird relationship with him. 

I praised him for ordering a missile strike in Syria to take out chemical weapons. I gave him credit for trying to thaw relations with North Korea; the results are honestly lacking, but he tried and I appreciate that. I rejoiced when he announced a trade war against China. Those are the things I like about him.

Maybe you are okay with Trump lying habitually, spreading fake news, using the office for personal gain, bribing people, slandering people, insulting allies, slapping tariffs on allies, abandoning allies, whoring for Putin, ruining American reputation, promoting climate change denial, being okay with white supremacists, fear mongering against immigrants, wasting MY tax money on a stupid wall, treating Puerto Rico like a foreign territory, playing golf more than Obama, etc. The list can go on and on and on.

If I can count on one hand for all the things I like about a person, but I can make a huge list of things I dislike, I am going to bash on that person.

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

. . .and what the fuck is that first sentence?

I mean, are the policies that the Democratic party so much worse than the reason why the impeachment hearing is going forward?  In which case, explain how the hell you came to that conclusion, because this implies that the current policies are better.  Which I can't reconcile in my mind.

And why do we mention Trump with so much adoration?  BECAUSE HE'S THE CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.  Guess who we're blaming for the shitshow that is US politics?

I don't know?

I just walk up to people and ask/state "hey, I'm a student conducting a survey. I don't want your name but if you could please answer a few questions it'd help me with my project. Try to answer these questions while role-playing as a scholar and keep it academic as possible".

Then I get the feedback and relay it here. I think the idea that "those are so bad then this must mean the inverse, which is equal  to these must be better ideas" logic isn't right here. Maybe they think both suck really bad but instead of weighing which one sucks more it is a matter of, which one is unacceptable and then they roll with it. I mean depending on who you are and what your priorities are, some stuff might be a deal breaker right off the bat. I recall we discussed once before, that some people only really care about one single issue and make compromises on others as long as that one is dealt with how they want. 

Like I can try to better articulate my words so that you comprehend what I'm saying, but it's kinda hard to do when people read it and then respond emotionally. I'm trying to approach this topic like as if I'm discussing it like a scientist and doing what I can to explain this phenomenon. 

1 hour ago, Excellen Browning said:

They can get Trump impeached and have Pence be president, then. 

This would have been an okay point to make during or shortly after the election, but at this point there's no good reason not to impeach.

I don't think my response was intended to "defend" why not to go forward with impeachment. I was simply answering "what would it take to turn moderates against him. How bad does it have to be". So I have no idea how you are responding to me. I'm sorry I don't get it. 

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Polling suggests otherwise, specially when it comes to the ideas by the 2 top contenders that aren't Biden. Polling also suggests that even a Republican majority of voters disagree with certain Trump policies. Here's one such example.

Because day in and day out that orange turd tweets or says lies and bullshit that deserves to be called out and quite frankly, should be suppressed and behind all that are just awful policies, a revolving door of corrupt staff being replaced with worse people and the cherry on top being that the man is a goddamn criminal while having the constant reminder that the people defending him are the same people that day in and day out attacked Obama and spew hypocritical garbage that in a sane reality, would be disqualifying of their positions. We love our country and wish to see it move forward, each day the man is in office spewing conspiracy theories and perpetuating a polarized country that will see nothing done thanks to the obstruction of the Republicans.

Again, the man is a goddamn criminal. Why do we have a criminal president? (rhetorical question, the answer is Republicans and Russia).

That would require said moderates and Republicans to stop defending the Republican politicians that claim they're the party of "family values", "law and order", "respects the constitution", "party of fiscal responsibility" and just accept it's all bullshit when the Republicans have given us a man directly opposite to all of that. Oh and you know, stop defending a criminal.

The fact is that anyone can jump into the conversation but there's simply not much to be had if you're just here to defend Trump or the current Republican politicians because they are just that bad. There's also been cases where people come in and use shitty sources like Breitbart to defend Trump. Simply put, to defend Trump is to be expose to the mountain of shit from him that's out in the open unless you're in the right-wing echo chamber.

When it boils down to the worst of one side being Antifa and Political Correctness while the other side has people killing out of bigotry, calls for us to ignore such violence, demands that you embrace God Emperor Trump or we'll have a Civil War, and their politicians cheat their way into power, you'd think it should be pretty fucking clear that one side needs to be booted out and work on their campaign platform to appeal to more voters instead of cheat their way into power.

Under Trump and current Republicans there is simply no progress, slow or swift. There is only regression, increasing polarization and shame. Conservative journalists have dubbed what is supposed to be their own party the "Stupid Party", even when Trump is gone we'll still have them to deal with.

I ask this earnestly. Do you trust polls? I don't. My freshmen year in psychology, my teacher told us at the beginning of class that if any of us conducted a "survey" style experiment for our project that we'd get an automatic F. She said surveys are the most subjective and offer the least accurate results possible when posing questions and trying to answer them using the scientific method. She said you could easily fish for the results you want by asking a question a certain way and furthermore, some people don't answer honestly when they feel they are being watched. I don't know how polls are conducted but I sincerely doubt their integrity and don't give much credibility to them. 

Then don't listen to all his crap? Is that an option? Why are you so invested in politics that you follow his daily actions or follow him weekly? Don't you have better things to do? Keep in mind that for this paragraph here I'm asking these questions to better understand where this passion comes from and why can't it redirected into something more positive. Like I dislike him too. But I don't allow him to run my life. I still move forward thinking that the time will come when it is my chance to make a change.

Allow me to use a metaphor here or something akin to an analogy. Do you follow certain football players outside the regular game season? Do you constantly pay attention to their personal life? Cause as far as I'm concerned, I only care when it's game time and I do what I can to keep up with the matches and see what their results are. I had a teacher once tell me that he remembers a time when politics changed for ever. He said that before, you never use to hear anything or see anything untill one day in our history they started treating it like a sport. They even had collectibles and trading cards! I don't know what time period this was but that changed it forever. I mean, I got that the current president was a bad dude right from like the first 2 or 3 months but I guess maybe I'm just more patient and just waiting for when the time comes that I'm supposed to do something about it. I mean politicians like staying relevant and in circulation since it is what helps them get elected and there are plenty running for offices that require attention on a 2 year interval. What better way to spice things up and keep people entertained than to put on a show and flame the media with epic titles to keep you in the loop. But I think for some of you here, it is stressing you out and eating at you. Like some of you are making it personal and that isn't good for your health. All of us already have daily little stressors from work, social relationship, home responsibilities, and so forth so why add more to your plate? I guess that is my two cents on this. 

So onto your next paragraph.

I'm a moderate that votes conservatively most of the time and didn't defend him or his actions or the "values" they claim to represent. But even I still feel wary stepping foot into this thread. I dislike all politicians. I mention this a few pages ago but I'm happy I have a brother and a sister in arms who are currently running for office. Tulsi Gabbard and Peter Buttigieg got my vote if they make it any further. I don't know why, but I feel more comfortable trusting someone who has served like myself than some random person who makes a career out of rubbing elbows with people. It takes a certain character and a certain level of personality to make it past boot camp and AIT. I'm not naive enough to believe everyone who joins the military is a good person, I know there are some bad people there too. But by a long shot, they'd beat anybody who doesn't know a thing about hard work, blood, sweat and more that get shedded living the soldier life. Like I could try to explain it better but that would require I type a whole bunch more and I'm pretty sure my text wall is already getting pretty long.

But back to the point, I said this place isn't very welcoming and it mainly is cause, if I'm not on your side, then by default most assume I must be on the other side. And most others only assume there is one other side only. I think it was mentioned before, but this country sucks for having a two party system. There isn't a big enough and strong enough platform for others to go to that takes middle ground. So by default most want to make me their enemy. They don't want to talk and try and meet me plus the others somewhere in the middle. I dislike the republican platform and some of what it stands for, but I also have things I dislike about Dems too, but I notice when people like me or others come to try to provide constructive criticism to help balance you out and make your platform more stable so it could fit us on it too, we get pushed into your enemy camp and are told that is where we belong. Long story short, it's like I'm not allowed to be your ally unless I cave in to all your demands. So I guess I'll join the other team since they are nicer to me. I mean, I'm not hurt by it, but like how else am I supposed to respond when eclipse was like "what the fuck". I already knew going forward I had to back track and make her unangry and stop cussing before I could even begin to get her to see I'm not the enemy, and I come in peace. Like I just feel Dems are way more hostile. Repubs will take any ally they can get. But I like some Dems. They tend to like anime, fire emblem, Pokemon, and so forth. I want those peeps as my friends. But I gotta be lying and hiding my stuff since if they find out, they'll hate me.

Sorry everyone my response became less articulate as I typed it. I had to break to do something and when I came back i was tired. This took forever to type up. 

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