Jump to content
Navv

General US Politics

Poll  

278 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      89
    • No
      115
    • Maybe
      74
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      49
    • No
      114
    • Indifferent
      44


Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

 Bush 1 was decided by Bush v Gore not because of the Electoral College.

Fixed that for you. 

On 11/5/2019 at 5:54 PM, eclipse said:

These are multi-state issues (how businesses/governments conduct themselves across state borders), so I think the federal government would have to step in for the homeless/AirBnB issues should they truly get out of hand.  The rail was mentioned because we got federal funding for it.  I think the TMT did, too.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps The Senate as originally structured is still necessary because the States themselves require national representation; not merely general voting populations. 

If so then the problem is not that the Senate exists as structured. But thats its powers do not match its job-description.

And by that I mean if the Senate's purpose as an institution is to represent the States and not the will of the general electorate. Then the Senate should be a lawmaking body of limited jurisdiction, which votes only on matters pertaining to conflicts-of-interests between the states.

While general lawmaking power should reside exclusively in the People's House. 

And if the House passes legislation supported by a majority of the general electorate that does not implicate a direct conflict-of-interest between the States, the Senate should have no power to vote it down because voting majorities in the most scarcely populated states oppose it. 

Perhaps that is a more sensible reform.

Perhaps it is what the Senate does rather than how Senators are elected that should be reexamined.

I don't know...I'm just spit-balling ideas here...

You raise some good points though and have definitely given me some things to think about. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Fixed that for you.

You should read up on the decision. If you have and think it's good law, lol.

If you need me to spell out the punchline, Bush won because without the recount, the Florida went to him

Edited by Excellen Browning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what point you think you're trying to make. But electoral votes rather than popular votes deciding presidential elections is the only reason the Florida recount was even being litigated in the first place.

Since in a national election decided by popular vote, the disputed numbers in Florida wouldn't have mattered (Gore won the popular vote by over 500,000 votes) 

Bush would not have become president in 2000 but-for the electoral college and the fact that the Florida results were litigated before the Supreme Court is immaterial to that point.  

If there was no electoral college and we used the popular vote in 2000 Al Gore would have been president. 

Bush won because of the electoral college.

Edited by Shoblongoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh my and what did are darling illegitimate president Mr. George W Bush do?  Worse recession since the Great depression, and plunged us into a meaningless war that took thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives.  Allowed Bin Laden and his cronies to stick around and wreck havoc much much longer than otherwise.  

Fuck the Electoral college.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Oh my and what did are darling illegitimate president Mr. George W Bush do?  Worse recession since the Great depression, and plunged us into a meaningless war that took thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives.  Allowed Bin Laden and his cronies to stick around and wreck havoc much much longer than otherwise.  

Fuck the Electoral college.

I still rather have Bush though over Trump. Despite ideological differences, I do not mind working out compromises with him and I do not doubt his loyalty. Trump is straight up repulsive and he is a national security hazard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, XRay said:

I still rather have Bush though over Trump. Despite ideological differences, I do not mind working out compromises with him and I do not doubt his loyalty. Trump is straight up repulsive and he is a national security hazard.

Agreed.  Bush did what he thought would be good for the country, and seems like he is a really decent human being.  Rumsfeld and Cheney seem to have manipulated him into doing a lot of stuff as well.  

Trump on the otherhand is the first president in my lifetime that is essentially doing everything he can to profit himself and doesn't care at all about the country or its people.  It isn't about the classic conservative vs progressive idealogies as to what would be good for the country, it is all about what is good for him and feeding his massive ego.  The 2020 election is the most important in many decades, the orange turd has corroded America to the breaking point already another 4 years and it will be beyond repair.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Agreed.  Bush did what he thought would be good for the country, and seems like he is a really decent human being.  Rumsfeld and Cheney seem to have manipulated him into doing a lot of stuff as well.  

Trump on the otherhand is the first president in my lifetime that is essentially doing everything he can to profit himself and doesn't care at all about the country or its people.  It isn't about the classic conservative vs progressive idealogies as to what would be good for the country, it is all about what is good for him and feeding his massive ego.  The 2020 election is the most important in many decades, the orange turd has corroded America to the breaking point already another 4 years and it will be beyond repair.  

Also agreed. Bush made some bad decisions, but he wasn't a bad person.

He was a simple man who was humble enough to know he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and who in his humility made every effort to surround himself with people who knew more than he did, and trust in their counsel when faced with decisions where he thought they might be more knowledgeable than he was.

The worst thing you can say about him is that he trusted the wrong people.

But there are no redeeming qualities about Donald Trump.

If Frankenstein stitched together a monster made entirely out of human personality flaws and moral failings, it would  be a Trump. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/7/2019 at 4:52 AM, Shoblongoo said:

Fixed that for you. 

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps The Senate as originally structured is still necessary because the States themselves require national representation; not merely general voting populations. 

If so then the problem is not that the Senate exists as structured. But thats its powers do not match its job-description.

And by that I mean if the Senate's purpose as an institution is to represent the States and not the will of the general electorate. Then the Senate should be a lawmaking body of limited jurisdiction, which votes only on matters pertaining to conflicts-of-interests between the states.

While general lawmaking power should reside exclusively in the People's House. 

And if the House passes legislation supported by a majority of the general electorate that does not implicate a direct conflict-of-interest between the States, the Senate should have no power to vote it down because voting majorities in the most scarcely populated states oppose it. 

Perhaps that is a more sensible reform.

Perhaps it is what the Senate does rather than how Senators are elected that should be reexamined.

I don't know...I'm just spit-balling ideas here...

You raise some good points though and have definitely given me some things to think about. 

Huh, that might work.  Or it might not.  If there's one thing I have confidence in, it's my complete and utter lack of knowledge of the delicacies of our current political system!

On 11/7/2019 at 5:03 PM, Lewyn said:

Oh my and what did are darling illegitimate president Mr. George W Bush do?  Worse recession since the Great depression, and plunged us into a meaningless war that took thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives.  Allowed Bin Laden and his cronies to stick around and wreck havoc much much longer than otherwise.  

Fuck the Electoral college.

I have two words for you: Patriot Act.

9 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

But there are no redeeming qualities about Donald Trump.

He spawned a subreddit that's as amusing as it is infuriating - Trump criticizes Trump.  Context is in the comments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, eclipse said:

Huh, that might work.  Or it might not.  If there's one thing I have confidence in, it's my complete and utter lack of knowledge of the delicacies of our current political system!

Anything might work, anything might not. On paper, yes it is easier to deduce some ideas are worse than others, but not all of them.

Institutions, regardless of their framework, require humans willing to enforce the framework in its intended way. But even then good intentions can have unexpected consequences that turn out being bad.

@Shoblongoo Idea sounds okay on paper. And it sounds like something of a downgrading of the Senate, which might not be the worst idea if moving closer to unicameralism makes legislation easier to pass. I am left asking then though of the treaty ratification, and judge and cabinet approval powers of the Senate - how do these affect the States if the Senate is only a body sort out inter-State interests? Do those approval powers pass to the House?

And unicameralism wouldn't remedy all problems of American politics. There would still be the executive-legislative divide not found in some other countries, the removal of which would further ease legislative passing. And yet, the former gold standard of essentially unicameral executive-legislative governments, the Once-Great-and-Almighty United-For-Now Kingdom of Britain, has been painfully stuck in Brexit for the past three years. To speak not of lesser unicameral governments in countries of lesser renown.

And, if the Senate were reduced to an inter-States conflict solver, would the Republican attempt to repeal Obamacare a few years ago have been thwarted? We can't know, because who knows if the pressure on the House being therefore greater and its importance more significant in this altered system, would have lead to certain Representatives acting differently, or the politicians in the House would have been altogether different because the Senate was no longer so highly regarded. However, with thing as they were, the House did vote to repeal the ACA, and the Senate alone stopped it. A strong bicameralism means McConnell can DoA anything the House puts out, were the situation reversed with a GOP House and a Senate of Dems, the 'pubs could be stopped. The checks of bicameralism and executive-legislative divide are banes when your party is in ascendance, a safeguard when they're in the decline. 

 

So best solution to anything? IDK.😅 But I'm left with the classic overused James Madison quote- "If men [and women!] were angels, no government would be necessary". But because men aren't angels, what government is necessary?

 

 

Although we all have to admit, reforming the Senate would require a Constitutional amendment richer in detail than any prior written. This isn't giving/protecting a right, it's reformulating Article 1 in heavily specific detail. I very much doubt that'd happen.

And as semi-related aside, now that Virginia is entirely blue, they might become the 38th State to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, allowing it to become officially part of the Constitution. However, this would require that it be legally recognized that this decades-belated approval be valid, considering all the other votes on the matter happened back in the 70s, and Congress set a deadline for ratification by like no later than the 1980s. Congresses can't bind their future selves to anything, so the opinion goes, but until Virginia tries to ratify the ERA, who knows how things would end up?

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/5/2019 at 7:21 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

///

Decided to delete

Edited by Tediz64
Deleting post from mobile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2019 at 1:27 PM, Shoblongoo said:

Also agreed. Bush made some bad decisions, but he wasn't a bad person.

He was a simple man who was humble enough to know he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and who in his humility made every effort to surround himself with people who knew more than he did, and trust in their counsel when faced with decisions where he thought they might be more knowledgeable than he was.

The worst thing you can say about him is that he trusted the wrong people.

But there are no redeeming qualities about Donald Trump.

If Frankenstein stitched together a monster made entirely out of human personality flaws and moral failings, it would  be a Trump. 

Yes, you can say Trump is perfect in his imperfections.  Even the worst of people seem to have some good to them, but Trump is like a super villain in a childrens cartoon.  Except usually those are actually smart, Trump is a damn moron.  The country falling to an evil genius, okay...I can respect that even if it is regrettable.  Falling to a no brain evil idiot?  Yeah that just makes all of us look pathetic.  

Trump also is a great example of better to be Rich and guilty than poor and innocent.  The justice system is a joke, he will be able to delay many lawsuits for years, decades.  

Maybe next time Trump is golfing and putting our tax dollars right into his pocket, a big bird will drop a doo doo mid flight, it will go into his eye cause he happens to look up at the same time, it will cause a severe infection and he will die.  

On 11/8/2019 at 11:22 PM, eclipse said:

 

I have two words for you: Patriot Act.

 

I agree the Patriot Act was a good thing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Yes, you can say Trump is perfect in his imperfections.  Even the worst of people seem to have some good to them, but Trump is like a super villain in a childrens cartoon.  Except usually those are actually smart, Trump is a damn moron.  The country falling to an evil genius, okay...I can respect that even if it is regrettable.  Falling to a no brain evil idiot?  Yeah that just makes all of us look pathetic.  

That's a big thing when it comes to Trump and something that firmly sets him apart from other populist. I might never agree and think others foolish for thinking it but I can at least understand why someone would admire Putin, I can see why someone thinks Le Pen has what it takes to be a leader, I can see things that would make people respect Wilders and I can easily imagine why someone would fall for Farage's charm. 

But what's the excuse for supporting Trump? What has he ever said or done that could convince someone he wasn't an openly corrupt businessman and a complete dullard to boot? There are reason to fall for other populists but I cannot think of a single thing that could convince people that supporting Trump is a good idea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But what's the excuse for supporting Trump? What has he ever said or done that could convince someone he wasn't an openly corrupt businessman and a complete dullard to boot? There are reason to fall for other populists but I cannot think of a single thing that could convince people that supporting Trump is a good idea. 

The only thing I can think of is some shitty logic governed by the notion that blocking and undoing legislation is equal to a win. Otherwise there's just the anti-immigration crowd salivating and getting scammed (by people other than Trump too) with the promise of a wall.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2019 at 11:54 AM, Lewyn said:

I agree the Patriot Act was a good thing.

. . .are you being sarcastic, or is this how you really feel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Huh, I assumed the beginning and end of their plan was to hire Tulsi Gabbard. This seems more elegant though, and focus testing always favored the angry blondes anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I will give credit where it is due. Fox is one of the worst news station out there, but at least they do something right on occasion no matter what their motives are, just as a broken clock gets the time right twice a day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2019 at 4:21 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

That's a big thing when it comes to Trump and something that firmly sets him apart from other populist. I might never agree and think others foolish for thinking it but I can at least understand why someone would admire Putin, I can see why someone thinks Le Pen has what it takes to be a leader, I can see things that would make people respect Wilders and I can easily imagine why someone would fall for Farage's charm. 

But what's the excuse for supporting Trump? What has he ever said or done that could convince someone he wasn't an openly corrupt businessman and a complete dullard to boot? There are reason to fall for other populists but I cannot think of a single thing that could convince people that supporting Trump is a good idea. 

 

On 11/12/2019 at 6:32 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

The only thing I can think of is some shitty logic governed by the notion that blocking and undoing legislation is equal to a win. Otherwise there's just the anti-immigration crowd salivating and getting scammed (by people other than Trump too) with the promise of a wall.

I think he's sold quite a few stupid people that he is the ultimate businessman, the ultimate dealmaker (the guy who has filed for bankruptcy three times).  Also that he is self made (Yeah 100 million from his daddy as well as his real estate contacts, totally all Donald).  That he is tough (Mr. Draft dodger, whose feelings are always so hurt whenever anyone says anything negative about him and who is Putin's bitch).  

The other point he is represents the ultimate in white male entitlement, so the white power idiots love him.  Cop a feel whenever you want from whatever chick you want.  Tell non whites to go back to their country or claim they weren't born here.  Call them stupid and criminals, encourage violence on them.  

So one group is so braindead that they been successfully sold on the story of Trump as the ultimate success story.  A rags to riches miracle, who makes amazing deals and is tough as nails.  That he sounds like an uneducated fool works to his advantage with these folk, they think it makes him seem more 'real' and confirms to them that he comes from poverty or whatever.  The other group is the sludge of society.  

Edited by Lewyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

The other point he is represents the ultimate in white male entitlement, so the white power idiots love him.  Cop a feel whenever you want from whatever chick you want.  Tell non whites to go back to their country or claim they weren't born here.  Call them stupid and criminals, encourage violence on them.  

If they experience being groped by gay men, have Native Americans yell at them to go back to Europe, and have everyone call them dumb blonde neanderthals who should go completely extinct, they would probably learn to feel a little more empathy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2019 at 4:18 PM, eclipse said:

. . .are you being sarcastic, or is this how you really feel?

Was not being sarcastic, just didn't have any further comment on it.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

If they experience being groped by gay men, have Native Americans yell at them to go back to Europe, and have everyone call them dumb blonde neanderthals who should go completely extinct, they would probably learn to feel a little more empathy.

Native Americans never say that, they are too nice.  Though they are the only people where saying such a statement makes sense, and it would be damn justified too if they said it to whites considering how they've been exterminated and had pretty much everything taken away from them. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I somewhat despise the idea when people say that Trump is worse than Bush.

Trump is more belligerent and a poor moral character, yes, but no one decision Trump has done has had the same effect as the blunders (if you are not attributing straight up malice/opportunism to them) that were the Iraq War and the decisions that lead to the 2008 financial crisis.

For the latter, you could maybe say that we are overdue a market crash, but that has not happened yet.

Bush was kinda the reason that modern Americans started to turn against "the establishment" in recent times.

My fear is that some people have short memories and have attempted to rehabilitate Bush as a "decent Republican," or something. As if getting rid of Trump will cure the rot in the Republican party that already existed.

 

Let's put it this way: you can speak politely and with civility, and still advocate for dropping bombs on foreign schoolchildren. Politicians have gotten a pass for a long time for being supposedly 'civil' in demeanour while advocating and putting into action horrible things.

The one thing that you could say is that Trump manages to fail on both accounts, though as I mentioned I would argue that perhaps not as much as I feel Bush did. Either way, take Trump out and the problem is still going to remain with the Republican (and to a lesser extent, the Democrat) party.

This wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've heard several democrats try to make amends with someone they vehemently disagreed with for years because it was politically convenient to do so.

Edited by Tryhard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bush was manipulated, what happened under the Bush administration is indeed terrible and shouldn't be overlooked indeed.  Loss of thousands upon thousands of lives for NOTHING, poor handling of the 9/11 incident, poor and delayed handling of Katrina incident that led to much more home destruction and much more injuries/lives lost, plunged into worst recession since the Great Depression.  Really that should have been the death of the Republican party right there, but a lot of stupid people out there.  

So now we get Trump.  Will people continue to be stupid after his reign of terror ends (hopefully next year or sooner) or will they continue to support the Republican party?  If we were a reasonably intelligent people the Republican party after this would have to make a major change in their philosophy and outlooks, but we probably aren't reasonably intelligent.

Oh yeah and people aren't talking about this enough, even Trump news reported on it.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/potus-to-pay-2-million-admits-misuse-of-trump-foundation-funds-in-settlement-with-ny-ag

BUT OBAMA, BUT CLINTONS!  Is all the defense those brain dead morons can come up with.  This should be repeated every frickin day by Democrats again and again and again.  Trump is a piece of trash as a human being for that alone, and that isn't political talk that is just fact.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2019 at 7:45 PM, Tryhard said:

Trump is more belligerent and a poor moral character, yes, but no one decision Trump has done has had the same effect as the blunders (if you are not attributing straight up malice/opportunism to them) that were the Iraq War and the decisions that lead to the 2008 financial crisis.

Trump has dragged American reputation through the mud and has largely allowed Russia and China to expand their influence unchecked. His so called trade war with China is pathetic. If he is half the man he claims to be, he would not hesitate to further weaponize tariffs against a tyrannical regime. He pulled out of the TTP like a stupid fucking retard, renamed NAFTA for his own ego, and slapped tariffs on our allies. That is far more damaging to the nation in the long run compared to going into Iraq; our trade relations are in tatters and our soft power has significantly decreased.

Dropping bombs on children is technically worse than putting children in holding camps, so I guess Trump is slightly better in that way. Katrina was bad and there was some incompetency, but I would argue Trump's handling of Puerto Rico was worse due to outright antagonism against an American territory and treating them like foreign strangers. Trump's haphazard pulling out of Syria is a thousand times worse than Bush/Obama pulling out of Iraq.

Edited by XRay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going into Iraq was much more damaging to American credibility than most Americans realize. A united EU armed force is being discussed in large part due to the Iraq war, and it's aftermath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Excellen Browning said:

Going into Iraq was much more damaging to American credibility than most Americans realize. A united EU armed force is being discussed in large part due to the Iraq war, and it's aftermath.

I would argue otherwise. Going into Iraq is no where as bad as picking fights against allies and abandoning allies. Trump screwing with NATO and fucking up our trade is far more dangerous as that directly affects our nation's well being and strategic standing. We are losing Turkey and we have alienated Latin America. Russia has expanded their influence at our expense. China is taking advantage of our loss of commitment to free trade with our allies.

Going into Iraq is a mistake, but that would have been salvageable if we continued occupying the country and actually put in effort and devote resources into rebuilding the nation. The only two fucking reasons we have not done so is because they are brown and Russia is no longer a mortal threat to our existence that it used to be. It is so bad that we are somehow having trouble trying to save Iraqi and Afghan translators who have risked their lives to help our military to move to the United States. This is fucking ridiculous. If they have bled for my country, they absolutely deserve American protection and should be given American citizenship if they so wish.

Demeaning and abandoning allies is nowhere as salvageable. Who the fuck is going to take a Republican president seriously anymore, especially with a significant portion of their base are now okay with blowing vodka bottles and spreading their legs for communist swines to plow them for soybeans?

Edited by XRay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...