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I'd have more sympathy towards those bitching about the more toxic aspects of Political Correctness and "woke culture" if not for the fact that these same people tend to ignore Trump as well as try to the minimize the danger of people stuck in the right-wing media bubble which has consistently produced mass shooters and violent attackers. Shitting on the toxic left is super easy and there's a huge audience for it on youtube but those that are siding with the right (Hunter Avallone, Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, etc) never want to look at the asinine shit they're producing in their echo chamber.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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9 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Shitting on the toxic left is super easy and there's a huge audience for it on youtube but those that are siding with the right (Hunter Avallone, Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, etc) never want to look at the asinine shit they're producing in their echo chamber.

*sigh* never thought I'll post here...

But I agree, I can't help but laugh when the right says the left does this and this and that and forgets its own problems. Like I agree bashing on toxicity but doing so shouldn't make you toxicity itself.

I used to watch Hunter Avallone and Ben Shapiro once, and PragerU but then realized they were full of crap and left them, the amount of brainlet followers they have is honestly surprising given their repetitive content.

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25 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I used to watch Hunter Avallone and Ben Shapiro once, and PragerU but then realized they were full of crap and left them

...Good for you...

You gotta look far-and-wide to get quality commentary these days, and take it where ever you can get it. Too many bullshitters. Too many hucksters and entertainers character-acting as fact experts and policy wonks. And too many suckers who can't tell the difference. 

And I do quite literally mean where ever you can get it

Because you can seriously get better policy analysis these days from an exceptionally well-written children's cartoon than from youtube, social media, and cable news:
 

 


Image may contain: one or more people, possible text that says 'Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history.'

Image may contain: possible text that says 'And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world.'

Image may contain: possible text that says 'What an amazing lie that was. The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation.'

Image may contain: possible text that says 'They don't see see our greatness. They hate us! And we deserve it! it!'
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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9 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I'd have more sympathy towards those bitching about the more toxic aspects of Political Correctness and "woke culture" if not for the fact that these same people tend to ignore Trump as well as try to the minimize the danger of people stuck in the right-wing media bubble which has consistently produced mass shooters and violent attackers. Shitting on the toxic left is super easy and there's a huge audience for it on youtube but those that are siding with the right (Hunter Avallone, Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, etc) never want to look at the asinine shit they're producing in their echo chamber.

It becomes even more amusing when you consider that this supposedly dangerous left doesn't have any real power. Few if any politician actually represents ''woke culture'' and even fewer of them get elected to positions of powers. The far left has a lot of bark but pretty much zero bite. 

But the far right does have a lot of power. In a lot of countries populist demagogues are increasingly creeping up into leadership positions and they already claimed the Presidency of the United States, the most powerful position in the world. 

Whatever real or imagined danger the left poses isn't a problem because they have no power. But the danger that the far right poses is very real because they are in real positions of power. 

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2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Too many bullshitters. Too many hucksters and entertainers character-acting as fact experts and policy wonks. And too many suckers who can't tell the difference. 

Lol, it's like their appeal is being triggered, which is half the stuff right-wingers use as an argument against the left. It's so hypocritical.
 

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But the far right does have a lot of power.

It does actually, and why call them far-right? They're still neo-nazis, just a kinder word tbh. Anyways, ironically, Poland has been dominated by a neo-nazi faction for the last few years and double ironically is that they are called "Pis" and it's pronounced "Pees".


Also if anyone here would like a centrist's view on stuff, KnowingBetter is a good option (they are more education-based than politics though)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8XjmAEDVZSCQjI150cb4QA

(Finally, are there any right-wingers in here? I fear this to become an echo chamber)

 

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5 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

It does actually, and why call them far-right? They're still neo-nazis, just a kinder word tbh. Anyways, ironically, Poland has been dominated by a neo-nazi faction for the last few years and double ironically is that they are called "Pis" and it's pronounced "Pees".

I generally don't like Nazi comparisons since they are pretty ineffective. The Nazi regime has become such an example of the ultimate evil that using them as a comparison usually comes off as more hysteric than insightful. 

I also think that demagogue is a much more apt and nuanced description. Trump, Erdogan and PIS aren't what they are because they looked at Hitler and considered him a great guy, nor do they have much of an ambition to go commit genocide(except Erdogan) which was a pretty key characteristic of the nazi regime. Hitler, Trump, Le Pen and Erdgoan are all demagogues and that is where their similarities come from. The characteristic they share with Hitler aren't Nazi ones but characteristics that are inherent to demagogues.That's why the resemblance is there. The Nazi's aren't really an ideology of themselves as much as they are populist demagogy taken to its most extreme form. 

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8 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

 

(Finally, are there any right-wingers in here? I fear this to become an echo chamber)

 

Ironically, I'm considered right by some. I'm a libertarian.

The problem with the Right is that many will take crappy stuff some trans people do to bash on ALL trans people, which makes it not surprising that many get driven to the left.  I'm a pretty independent thinker, but when one side tells you you're an abomination, it takes a strong character to not dismiss everything they say out of hand.

Wanting to see what one side thinks, and then seeing them rant about the trannies is somewhat disheartening.

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10 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I'd have more sympathy towards those bitching about the more toxic aspects of Political Correctness and "woke culture" if not for the fact that these same people tend to ignore Trump.

 

27 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 Few if any politician actually represents ''woke culture'' and even fewer of them get elected to positions of powers. 


This is all you need to know about "political correctness," and the right's complaints about it.

For almost the entirety of human social and political history, restrictions on public speech (i.e. 'censorship') has been associated with the political right. Its subject matter has been heresy, blasphemy, obscenity, pornography, sedition, and material deemed generally adverse to 'public morality.' In The West in particular they were primarily associated with The Church, and with the prudish sensibilities of religious conservatives. 

It has been a relatively recent advent of the modern era--only about the past 3 decades are so--that the subject matter of restrictions on public speech has shifted to disfavoring utterances deemed offensive to racial and sexual minorities. 

And the political right's newfound distaste for restrictions on public speech has arisen completely in tandem with that advent. (which is to say it is not their pretextual aversion to the concept of public speech restrictions that really bothers them; it is the subject matter of what is being restricted)
_____

When The Right says: "Political Correctness is bad."

W
hat it really means is: "I just want to express racist and sexist views without being called a racist or sexist." 
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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6 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

The problem with the Right is that many will take crappy stuff some trans people do to bash on ALL trans people, which makes it not surprising that many get driven to the left.

I mean that happens with everybody. Not to forgive the terrible trans, gay, lesbian, straight and other social movement people's terrible behaviours, I mean just look at how the feminists cucked Mexico city! But I know it doesn't represent the full picture, which is why I will say it right now. I'm kinda centrist I guess, agree on the right and agree on the left I dunno.

On that note, anyone know why the US in general hates centrism?

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33 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

(Finally, are there any right-wingers in here? I fear this to become an echo chamber)

I'd say anyone who goes into an area where their views are controversial or uncommon would think it to be an echo chamber. It's not uncommon for conservative thought to be congregated in certain areas of the internet.

If I started espousing social democratic views in The Donald subreddit, I wouldn't expect to be well-liked or to stick around long.

19 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Ironically, I'm considered right by some. I'm a libertarian.

The problem with the Right is that many will take crappy stuff some trans people do to bash on ALL trans people, which makes it not surprising that many get driven to the left.  I'm a pretty independent thinker, but when one side tells you you're an abomination, it takes a strong character to not dismiss everything they say out of hand.

Wanting to see what one side thinks, and then seeing them rant about the trannies is somewhat disheartening.

The part I don't understand: when someone says that they are now a left-winger or a right-winger because of other people.

Does that mean they have changed their opinion on abortion? On gay marriage? On immigration? On gun control? On healthcare? On government social welfare? On foreign policy and diplomacy? On religion?

I find it unlikely that a person would immediately switch their entire philosophy based on not liking other people that may be part of their political opinions. No matter what policies I support, there would always be people I dislike that would be under the same umbrella as me.

Now, a general wave of hateful and bigoted rejections of who you are as a person, that may just do it...

Edited by Tryhard

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14 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

On that note, anyone know why the US in general hates centrism?

I think ''centrism is for pussies'' mindset has a lot to do with it. Each side likely sees the centrists of their party as capitulating to the other. Politics in general has become a lot more fanatical and since the two sides already see their opposing side as the ultimate evil they are unlikely to look any kinder on those in their ranks that seek to compromise with them.

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13 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The part I don't understand: when someone says that they are now a left-winger or a right-winger because of other people.

Does that mean they have changed their opinion on abortion? On gay marriage? On immigration? On gun control? On healthcare? On government social welfare? On foreign policy and diplomacy? On religion?

Who you affiliate with and count among your political allies vs. who you stand against and count among your opposition is as much a part of political identity as your stance on the issues. 

At the ideological poles its a distinction-without-a-difference.

But when you start getting into the grey area of the more centrist ideologies--really--the only difference between a 'leftward  leaning Republican' vs. 'a rightward leaning Democrat' or w/e  is who's lunatic fringe you find less insufferable. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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1 hour ago, This boi uses Nino said:

(Finally, are there any right-wingers in here? I fear this to become an echo chamber)

Outsiders would probably see this as an echo chamber specially when people bring up right-wing talking points and get scrutinized for it because as I've mentioned before, right-wing talking points are idiotic and cause people to support things they don't necessarily agree with. Folks that identify themselves to be on the right or right-leaning that have posted in this thread also tend to just assume that those perceived as leftist here just blindly loved Obama.

Personally, I don't really see where I fall on the political spectrum or really care. Despite the the notion that a "central government shouldn't have too much power" resonates with me, When it comes to US politics, I'm typically more supportive of the left-leaning policies because...

1. Proponents of deregulation are typically doing it under the Southern Strategy umbrella which effectively means "trick the stupid racist whites into hurting themselves but be okay with it by hurting non-whites even more". As an example, just about any move Trump has done that involves the EPA. The Southern Strategy should be political suicide at this point in time as the GOP even apologized for using it a decade ago but they still do and the echo chamber on the right is now trying to say that it's not a real thing.

2. The politicians on the right are effectively being regressive in that they're doing shit that sane people don't care about like the anti-abortion push to overturn Roe v Wade and do-nothings when it comes to things like Climate Change and Income Inequality. If the voters of these politicians believe they're doing the right thing, then they should try not paying their bills for a while and see how the strategy of ignoring a problem works out. At the end of the day though, it primarily stems from our politicians being bought.

3. The right's arguments are dumb ("It's your fault that your wages are bad" - Ben Shapiro) as shit and as already mentioned, they ignore the asinine mass shooters they're creating as well as flirt with the Nazis that are White Nationalists. They also fail to realize that the unfettered Capitalism they're trying to enable is bad for them too, under today's politicians, I'd be surprised to see the Poison Squad succeed in its attempts at making the food that's sold healthier.

4. The left is proposing things that work in other countries. Folks on the right argue that "it works in those countries because they are homogeneous and mostly white".

5. The right's obsession with religion, specially Christianity.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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21 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

 

 

I think what most people don't consider is the other side of the issue. When trans people are forced to use the restroom that doesn't coincide with their gender, they are more at risk of facing assault, especially trans women. There's a lot of violence against trans women in the States and forcing them to use men's restroom will only make that issue worse.

I'm not too sure on this one. On one hand, some people can go too far when it comes to what is and isn't offensive. On the other hand, I don't think comedians should be above critique just cause they can make derogatory language sound funny. To top it all off, the comedians being 'attacked' aren't suffering any real consequences. Ricky Gervais and Kevin Hart in particular are still getting booked and making money despite being 'called out' and 'canceled.' Which, to me, really makes the arguments against political correctness and 'cancel culture' a non-issue.

The other side of the issue isn't heard which is why it isn't considered.  We hear all the time of women being raped/assaulted, so it is easy for people to play up that fear that if say MtF transgender people were allowed to use womens restrooms, there would be an epidemic of rape.  This is why fear mongering is so effective for the right, people are afraid of change and the 'new' and they are experts at manipulation.

Maybe unisex bathrooms are the solution.  I think another proposed solution was a specific bathroom for non cisgendered people.  

I personally think comedy is a safespace.  I mean no you can't go we should start lynching black people, or appear in blackface and all that.  However I think the PC stuff has gone way too far.  Seinfeld spoke on it a few years ago about his French gay king joke, and I think that was a great example.  

Alright left vs right.  

The left contains the scientists, the artists, the educated, humanitarians, environmentalists.  Essentially the heart and brains of humanity.

The right contains racists/misogynists, businessmen/women, religious.  So the greed and scum of society, and people who believe in fiction stories over scientific fact.

That this is even a battle at all is just sad. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

The right contains racists/misogynists, businessmen/women, religious.  So the greed and scum of society, and people who believe in fiction stories over scientific fact.

I've got to tell you that the majority of people that pass for "left" in the US are religious (because the majority of the people in the US are religious). Sure, if you're non-religious, then you're more likely to be on the left, and those that aren't are far less likely to be fundamentalists, but if that's a sticking point then I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

Not particularly religious, but that's always fairly overstated.

Edited by Tryhard

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2 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I've got to tell you that the majority of people that pass for "left" in the US are religious (because the majority of the people in the US are religious). Sure, if you're non-religious, then you're more likely to be on the left, and those that aren't are far less likely to be fundamentalists, but if that's a sticking point then I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

Yes sorry.  I guess I mean creationists, religious zealots.  The people who believe in religion over science.  The evangicals that worship Trump, etc.

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 8:08 PM, Rezzy said:

A small minority of transgender people give the rest a bad name by either competing in sports where they have an advantage over biological women or suing salons for refusing to wax their genitals, so people think all trans people are like that.  There is also the controversy with bathrooms and giving kids puberty blockers or hormones.  Plus many people will only ever know one person who is trans, and if they're a crazy wacko, that's the impression they get.

In other words, some transgender people are being asses.  The only thing I'm uncomfortable with is giving kids anything that messes with their hormones.  I think it's a little too dangerous to tinker with the human body during that time.  Let the body's natural hormones settle before trying to introduce drastic change.

21 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

That's such a gross mindset. I don't see how members of a community that banks on a bunch or different identities banding together can't muster up basic compassion or empathy.

There's been divisions within the LGBT community for a long time, and the crap the "T" part is getting more attention (finally).  It's why I refuse to call myself an ally.

7 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Alright left vs right.  

The left contains the scientists, the artists, the educated, humanitarians, environmentalists.  Essentially the heart and brains of humanity.

The right contains racists/misogynists, businessmen/women, religious.  So the greed and scum of society, and people who believe in fiction stories over scientific fact.

That this is even a battle at all is just sad.

I'm assuming you see yourself as someone on the left.  I hate to break it to you, but you're using tactics that I'd expect from someone on the far-right.

Division, control, and being overly judgmental are qualities that transcend left/right.  Don't become a right-winger with a different set of policies.

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10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

I'm assuming you see yourself as someone on the left.  I hate to break it to you, but you're using tactics that I'd expect from someone on the far-right.

Division, control, and being overly judgmental are qualities that transcend left/right.  Don't become a right-winger with a different set of policies.

Yes this type of tactic is what the right excels at, but we've seen how effective it is.  The people on the left try to be the bigger man/woman and argue with intellectual arguments, detail, without personal insults and where has it got them?  Look at the impeachment inquiry and compare Schiff to Jim Jordan.  How much has good reasoned well thought out arguments and facts vs lunatic yelling about nonsense shifted public opinion?

If the Democrats had a Trump as president, he would have been kicked out within a few months of office.  Republicans would tear him down repeatedly.  Just look at what they did with Obama.  If mudslinging and namecalling is so effective and can win seats and the election use it.  I think the end justifies the means in this case.  Trump being re elected is the end of America.

Edited by Lewyn

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Just now, Lewyn said:

Yes this type of tactic is what the right excels at, but we've seen how effective it is.  The people on the left try to be the bigger man/woman and argue with intellectual arguments, detail, without personal insults and where has it got them?  Look at the impeachment inquiry and compare Schiff to Jim Jordan.  How much has good reasoned well thought out arguments and facts vs lunatic yelling about nonsense shifted public opinion?

If the Democrats had a Trump as president, he would have been kicked out within a few months of office.  Republicans would tear him down repeatedly.  Just look at what they did with Obama.  If mudslinging and namecalling is so effective and can win seats and the election use it.  I think the end justifies the means in this case.  Trump being re elected is the end of America.

There's two huge issues with this:

1. You're talking down to their level, which is a victory for them (because you're now acting like their enemy).  It also means that those that aren't particularly attached to one side will view your side with distaste. . .and there are a lot of us.

2. You're on SF, and we have rules, several of which involve respecting others.

In other words, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  But if you insist on pulling this nonsense, don't do it here.  Like it or not, there's rules to be followed.

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Yeah we can tout the reason why we believe moving left is better than moving right without pretending that our side is immaculate, and there's no good people on the other.
 

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

There's two huge issues with this:

1. You're talking down to their level, which is a victory for them (because you're now acting like their enemy).  It also means that those that aren't particularly attached to one side will view your side with distaste. . .and there are a lot of us.

2. You're on SF, and we have rules, several of which involve respecting others.

In other words, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  But if you insist on pulling this nonsense, don't do it here.  Like it or not, there's rules to be followed.

Well this is more on how the actual democrats in politics should talk.  Politeness doesn't work with the masses apparently.  Hillary's well reasoned plans lost to Trump's 'Lock her up!" along with racist rhetoric. 

 Namecalling, fearmongering, and doing it repeatedly over and over making fictions facts.  If the masses are stupid enough to be swayed by this the democrats should use the same tactics against their opponents, while at the same time displaying their well thought out plans.  

There are good people on both sides, but what we see from the leadership of each party is completely different.

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1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Well this is more on how the actual democrats in politics should talk.  Politeness doesn't work with the masses apparently.  Hillary's well reasoned plans lost to Trump's 'Lock her up!" along with racist rhetoric.

Hillary didn't lose because she was being reasonable.  The situation is pretty complex, but here's some points I've gathered:

- Trump had Russia's disinformation campaign on his side
- Hillary didn't campaign as hard in certain states
- Hillary's a woman.  Say what you will, but America had just gotten through a non-white president, and there's a racist/sexist voting block.  If a white male had been on the Democrat side, I think they might've had a chance.
- Republicans were tired of NOT having their way for four years (see: government shutdowns), so they'd be voting whoever had R in their name
- Disagreement over her policies, for whatever reason

You're free to read up on other opinions on why Hillary lost, but I strongly suggest using a search engine that isn't Google for this.  Preferably in an incognito tab.

7 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

 Namecalling, fearmongering, and doing it repeatedly over and over making fictions facts.  If the masses are stupid enough to be swayed by this the democrats should use the same tactics against their opponents, while at the same time displaying their well thought out plans.  

There are good people on both sides, but what we see from the leadership of each party is completely different.

. . .what.  No.

Your opponent has no reason to believe you.  These tactics will only cause those who have an emotional connection to their side to dig their heels in deeper.  Like, take some time to self-reflect. . .or if you want, I can give you a whole religious fire and brimstone speech (which will garner the exact same type of emotional response from you).

If you really want to fight, you first have to understand WHY people follow the Republican base.  Then, figure out which ones can be reasoned with.  Those who use emotion over logic aren't going to listen to you, especially if you use this kind of tactic.  It would be nice if every single person agreed to generally make life better for other people, regardless of things like race or gender.  Realistically, the best that will happen is a small shift, enough for Trump NOT to be re-elected.

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Not t

34 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Well this is more on how the actual democrats in politics should talk.  Politeness doesn't work with the masses apparently.  Hillary's well reasoned plans lost to Trump's 'Lock her up!" along with racist rhetoric. 

 Namecalling, fearmongering, and doing it repeatedly over and over making fictions facts.  If the masses are stupid enough to be swayed by this the democrats should use the same tactics against their opponents, while at the same time displaying their well thought out plans.  

There are good people on both sides, but what we see from the leadership of each party is completely different.


How about "if the masses are stupid enough to be swayed by this, we should bring civics back to the public schools as core-curriculum and try to create a more educated voter base in the alternative to cynically pandering to the lowest common denominator" 

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On to more pressing matters, how low will the senate republicans go? Will they back a president starting foreverwar 3 when they can also impeach him? I'm not holding out hope.

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5 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

On to more pressing matters, how low will the senate republicans go? Will they back a president starting foreverwar 3 when they can also impeach him? I'm not holding out hope.

they were never going to do it before and they are never going to do it now. the best thing that nancy pelosi and the rest of the democrats can do is sit on sending the articles of impeachment to the senate indefinitely so they can repeat that Trump is impeached and not let him have his victory lap when the republican senate inevitably acquits him.

Edited by Tryhard

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