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On 1/9/2020 at 9:04 PM, Quiyonce said:

I think our main disagreement is how much of the community actually disenfranchises its more vulnerable members. In my experience, transphobia is held by a small minority but my experience is not universal.

I'm not trying to get you consider or ally yourself with anything more than I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. And you best believe that I am in the community calling out the bad behavior and I will continue to do so until it's eradicated.

However, completely stomping out bigotry, even in a social movement, is a nigh impossible task so saying that should happen before people get basic human rights isn't a convincing argument.

My introduction to this was of the treatment of bisexuals, then the other divisions.  It also doesn't help that the worst people I've dealt with are in the LGBT side (the worst being a gay guy who used "well I'm gay" to be an ass to me - and only me).  Couple that with the fact that I live in a relatively liberal area, where the average person generally don't ostracize someone for stuff like sexual orientation.  That's why I'm treating this group like I am - because in my mind, what's relevant is the human side, and the divisions tell me that they need to work on that first.

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8 hours ago, eclipse said:

My introduction to this was of the treatment of bisexuals, then the other divisions.  It also doesn't help that the worst people I've dealt with are in the LGBT side (the worst being a gay guy who used "well I'm gay" to be an ass to me - and only me).  Couple that with the fact that I live in a relatively liberal area, where the average person generally don't ostracize someone for stuff like sexual orientation.  That's why I'm treating this group like I am - because in my mind, what's relevant is the human side, and the divisions tell me that they need to work on that first.

Okay, that definitely helps my understanding. 

I've done a lot research into social movements for my undergrad so the divisions and issues, while still reprehensible, are unsurprising to me because it's a phenomena that always happens. There's always going to be those who are treated worse; so my logic isn't to pause the entire movement but to provide a platform and listen to the most vulnerable so progress is still being made and no one's getting left behind.

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Remember Yovanovitch, the ambassador that got fired for not being totally on board with Trump blackmailing Ukraine into investigating his personal enemies? Well apparently there are now phone record of Trump cronies stalking her every move in Ukraine. The way they talk about her location and security level suggested they might have been hatching a plot to do her harm. That's not a very good look. 

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1217215352754577409/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1217215352754577409&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231217215352754577409

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I was speaking to an attorney yesterday that represented the Trump Organization back in the 1990s, when he was going through his casino period and his bankruptcy in Atlantic City.

We joke alot about "how dumb do you have to be to bankrupt a CASINO???" 

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix

So apparently what happened is that Trump was going through a period where he was out of liquid assets, had multiple properties that were  not profitable + had more debt then cashflow, and needed fast cash and lots of it to get his failing business empire back above-water.

So the plan Trump came up with is that he was just going to get one (1) property that he could:

1) Convince everyone was a money-making machine and good collateral for multi-hundred million dollar bank loans.

2) Get the loans.

3) Use the loans to finance his other debts.

4) Attach all the loan debt he used to finance his other debts to this one (1) property

5) Run that property into the ground, bankrupt it, and discharge the debt in bankruptcy.  

...and the business venture he identified as the ideal property for this massive fraud scheme was--of course--a casino...

So Trump gets into the Casino business. Runs around to all the banks telling them hes got this multi-biillion dollar cash generating property now. Securing his loans, with equity interests in the casino backing the loan in the event of default.

Spends all the money.

Never pays back any of his creditors.  

And as he's doing this--he's not hiring staff for his casino. He's not maintaining the slot machines in working order. Hes not getting his necessary licenses and certifications from Atlantic City to keep the bars or the card-tables open.

He's just purposefully doing everything he can to make this business fail, while he loots the loans attached to it and buries it in personal debts.

With his intention all along being that the casino is going to go bankrupt and that's how he's going to defraud his creditors.   

(And this is the reason why American banks stopped lending to Donald Trump after the 1990s + he had to start going to the Russians. American banks were on notice after the Atlantic City debacle that this is what Trump does, and that you will never see your money again if you give him a loan) 
_____

Thats the kind of man you're dealing with in Donald Trump.

Thats the kind of mindset he brings to executing the powers of the President of the United States + getting through impeachment. 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix.

In other words, we may not be dealing with an idiot.  This. . .is bad news indeed.

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28 minutes ago, eclipse said:

In other words, we may not be dealing with an idiot.  This. . .is bad news indeed.

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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I'm still inclined to think that Trump is an impulsive idiot, but he's rich enough that his various...let's call them consiglieres, because he really does act like a mafioso a lot of the time...can craft these schemes and do the dirty work. We've seen it with Cohen, with his campaign, and even with Giuliani (though his competence is dubious, especially after he's had a few...) Trump has what I've seen George R. R. Martin call a "low cunning," but he's ultimately a Joffrey surrounded by Varyses and Littlefingers.

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6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

At least stupidity can be steered in the right direction, assuming a strong enough impetus.

But malice plus some intelligence?  Not happening.  It looks like we're on that end now.

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6 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Its shame, decency, and a belief that he can ever actually be touched by real consequences of bad behavior that he lacks.

Not intelligence. 

How old is he? 73.  He has never paid for his misdeeds other than paltry sums here and there, so why would he believe he can be touched by real consequences?  No wonder he has a god complex as well.  

He is going to live and die living a golden life of wealth, luxury and women.  Screwing over many people and committing countless crimes and never paying for it.  That is Donald Trump.  That is the man elected president in 2016, reinforcing his godhood.  That is the man that will likely win in 2020.  He's a cartoonish supervillain, but even most of them are more likable or have some heart.  Yet even with much of his bad behavior on full display, no one can make him pay.  Pay really.  Usually successful criminals are stealthy and there may be many that live and die and the public or no one knows they did anything wrong.  This is not that.  

4 hours ago, Fëanen said:

I'm still inclined to think that Trump is an impulsive idiot, but he's rich enough that his various...let's call them consiglieres, because he really does act like a mafioso a lot of the time...can craft these schemes and do the dirty work. We've seen it with Cohen, with his campaign, and even with Giuliani (though his competence is dubious, especially after he's had a few...) Trump has what I've seen George R. R. Martin call a "low cunning," but he's ultimately a Joffrey surrounded by Varyses and Littlefingers.

Joffrey that is a perfect comparison.  A 73 year Joffrey whose behavior has never been punished.  

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Wasn't it apparent that Trump would look to do whatever possible to get what he wants while shoving the responsibility for it unto others after Michael Cohen's testimony?

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12 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Wasn't it apparent that Trump would look to do whatever possible to get what he wants while shoving the responsibility for it unto others after Michael Cohen's testimony?

It was apparent long before that.  Just look at his businesses' legal history.  

I'd have to study history, but Trump is not only the worst president in my lifetime, but the worst American.  Worse than any American mass shooter, serial killer or whatever.  This douchebag was born into extreme privilige and has excessive wealth.  There is no need, no growing up in violent neighborhoods, no violent/sexual child abuse.  The guy is just fucks over whomever for his own benefit, to get even more.  More wealth, and feed his ego, and policies that have and will cause much suffering and lives.  This guy needs to be thrown into max security prison and get the shit beaten out of him on a daily basis.

There I go again, sorry.  However he deserves more than losing the presidency, and some fines.  

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

There I go again, sorry.  However he deserves more than losing the presidency, and some fines.  

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

  • Life sentence
  • Seizing of all his assets
  • Castration

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1 hour ago, Johann said:

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

  • Life sentence
  • Seizing of all his assets
  • Castration

I think that'd fall under the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment.

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

 

Jokes aside, while I do see in theory why Trump's fans like him, I don't get it in practice. Plenty of Republicans pride themselves on being fact-driven patriots who believe in what's right. So then why do they support an idiot with no facts, who feigns patriotism while being influenced by foreigners, and does literally everything wrong. I know how he gets a lot of his votes, since Republican voters never vote down party lines (my grandparents who disagreed with what most of Trump said and hated his guts still voted for him because he was Republican). And the worst part is that Trump has almost single-handedly engineered a decent chunk of folks who will just attack anything related to another party, without doing any research on it in the slightest.

A friend of mine shared an Instagram post by Trump. By most accounts, this is a stand-up dude, I love him to death, but he is the biggest Trump shill I know personally. It was another one of his "Democrats have devolved into a party of these things which I'm using language that both strawmans and misrepresents this issues, meanwhile I'm the best", and it took all I had in me not to call him and yell at him for believing this junk. They focus on tiny little things that one person in the entire Democratic party does, and then blow it WAY out of proportion. I won't act like the democrats are entirely innocent in this, they're not, but they only do it now because Trump has created the environment where that's just what naturally happens.

But the thing that really gets my blood boiling is when they complain about Dems not focusing on bipartisan issues the second that they propose a bill that even slightly veer away from their very narrow platform. Like impeachment, they were all like "Dems force partisan issues on us", like bitch, you're the fools who are making it partisan by not looking at any of the facts. One of these days someone has gotta come to their senses, somebody.

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On 1/15/2020 at 8:29 AM, Shoblongoo said:

But this attorney had some--very interesting behind-the-scenes insights into how that really all went down. It was less dumb, and more there really is no low this man won't sink to when he's in trouble and needs a fix

He is still dumb, he is just paying others to do the thinking for him.

I remember doing a short report on Trump's tax avoidance during that time period for my auditing class several years ago, and he used nearly a billion dollar in losses to offset nearly 20 years of taxes. That kind of shit basically involves smoking your accountants and tax lawyers skyhigh off of coke and weed to dial their creativity up to 12 and so they will have a very loose interpretation of the law.

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5 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

I think that'd fall under the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment.

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

 

Jokes aside, while I do see in theory why Trump's fans like him, I don't get it in practice. Plenty of Republicans pride themselves on being fact-driven patriots who believe in what's right. So then why do they support an idiot with no facts, who feigns patriotism while being influenced by foreigners, and does literally everything wrong. I know how he gets a lot of his votes, since Republican voters never vote down party lines (my grandparents who disagreed with what most of Trump said and hated his guts still voted for him because he was Republican). And the worst part is that Trump has almost single-handedly engineered a decent chunk of folks who will just attack anything related to another party, without doing any research on it in the slightest.

A friend of mine shared an Instagram post by Trump. By most accounts, this is a stand-up dude, I love him to death, but he is the biggest Trump shill I know personally. It was another one of his "Democrats have devolved into a party of these things which I'm using language that both strawmans and misrepresents this issues, meanwhile I'm the best", and it took all I had in me not to call him and yell at him for believing this junk. They focus on tiny little things that one person in the entire Democratic party does, and then blow it WAY out of proportion. I won't act like the democrats are entirely innocent in this, they're not, but they only do it now because Trump has created the environment where that's just what naturally happens.

But the thing that really gets my blood boiling is when they complain about Dems not focusing on bipartisan issues the second that they propose a bill that even slightly veer away from their very narrow platform. Like impeachment, they were all like "Dems force partisan issues on us", like bitch, you're the fools who are making it partisan by not looking at any of the facts. One of these days someone has gotta come to their senses, somebody.

 

Forgive me for making this long and oft repeated analogy and my strange english but I believe Trump is rather like the Nazis in that while they weren't extremely popular with a majority of the citizens of their country but in their fringe minority, they are really, really popular because takes his stupid policies and he runs with it, while stealing the credit from administrations that actually improved lives for the people(the economy Trump inherited from Obama fixed the Bush Administration's faults, much like how Chancellor Brunning of Germany fixed the effects of the Depression on Germany but the Nazis stole his credit). Hell, he is even supporting dictatorial powers like Saudi Arabia and Russia while attacking his allies in NATO for not contributing funds for conflicts USA starts. He relies to much on making policies that really should be bipartisan and not political in the first place (the environment, discrimination of LGBTQ+ based on religion) into partisan topics. It also helps him immensely that despite his horrible political and business acumen, he has vast riches to fund his campaigns. He has successfully brainwashed his voter-base into believing he gives a damn about them when he just cares about lining his pockets. He even has acted more aggressive in Iran as an election strategy. Democrats themselves are also guilty of this and they are just as bad as Republicans for not challenging them properly and for being obsessed with safe elections.

Believing that any political party would come to its senses is absurd unfortunately because of the inherent problems with First Past the Post and the current political climate favours more radical views than moderate views (UKIP forcing the Labour Party in UK to become more conservative for example).

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

Edited by Ishmael

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9 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

It's cruel to the American populous that Trump would get off that easy after all he's done.

It already is with his son, Trump Jr. as an example:

Quote

This series of events [surrounding the June 9 meeting] could implicate the federal election-law ban on contributions and donations by foreign nationals...Specifically, Goldstone passed along an offer purportedly from a Russian government official to provide “official documents and information” to the Trump campaign for the purposes of influencing the presidential election. 
[T]he Office determined that the government would not be likely to obtain and sustain a conviction for two other reasons: first, the Office did not obtain admissible evidence likely to meet the government’s burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these individuals acted “willfully,” i.e. with general knowledge of the illegality of their conduct...

That's a bit from the Mueller Report basically saying that they didn't pursue a conviction of conspiracy because to do so the prosecuting side has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the people involved (in this case Trump Jr) knew that what they're doing is illegal. In simple terms, Trump Jr. was too stupid/ignorant to know that his meeting to get dirt on Hillary on that infamous meeting was illegal so they let him off the hook. How well does the defense "I didn't know it was illegal" work for commoners?

5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

It's a fantastical circus show really. One side advocates for policies to benefit everyone in the country which tend to be popular while the other side focuses more on calling such policies "socialism", toxicity of political correctness and anti-fat shaming, and ignoring simple problems that needs addressing like having to pay $6k-10k for childbirth while the rich just laugh and "both sides" everything.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Honestly though it is kind of amusing seeing US politics as a foreigner.

To an extend but it quickly starts to become less funny when Trump starts blackmailing other countries, treating his allies like dirt or nearly starting a war to distract from his impeachment. 

But its also a case of glass houses. Populism isn't really unique to America. If anything Trump was influenced by the populist politicians plaguing Europe for decades. Though it definitely is unique how fast Americans allowed themselves to be conned after their very first exposure to populism. But many other countries are facing the same struggles as the US. Britain has been stuck in populist hell since 2015 and many countries like Hungary and Poland have already fallen while populism is a significant force in countries like France or the Netherlands. Many Western nations have their own rogue demagogue and many of those have a realistic chance of getting to power. 

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50 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

To an extend but it quickly starts to become less funny when Trump starts blackmailing other countries, treating his allies like dirt or nearly starting a war to distract from his impeachment. 

But its also a case of glass houses. Populism isn't really unique to America. If anything Trump was influenced by the populist politicians plaguing Europe for decades. Though it definitely is unique how fast Americans allowed themselves to be conned after their very first exposure to populism. But many other countries are facing the same struggles as the US. Britain has been stuck in populist hell since 2015 and many countries like Hungary and Poland have already fallen while populism is a significant force in countries like France or the Netherlands. Many Western nations have their own rogue demagogue and many of those have a realistic chance of getting to power. 

I'm not particularly surprised that the US got entranced with populism so quickly considering that unlike Europe, they hadn't really experienced a populist leader going bad or the full brunt of a war on their border from a foreign power either.

1 hour ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

It's a fantastical circus show really. One side advocates for policies to benefit everyone in the country which tend to be popular while the other side focuses more on calling such policies "socialism", toxicity of political correctness and anti-fat shaming, and ignoring simple problems that needs addressing like having to pay $6k-10k for childbirth while the rich just laugh and "both sides" everything.

I do agree that Democrats are a hell of a lot better than Trump but I feel annoyed at the fact that they don't really show methods of implementation of stuff like Public Healthcare or university funds. As someone who has family in the US and hopes to study there, these policies would affect more than just the current generation and showing methods of implementing them would be a great step to get public interest in these policies up. Tribalism has started every where (even here to an extent) and being seen as right has become more important to people than doing the right thing. Republicans are especially guilty of this with trying to demonise immigrants and first hating the gay community to then supporting it for brownie points.

It does suck that people aren't really challenging Trump and by proxy Republican bs because a lot of stuff Trump does and supports is quite scary. Did you know that that most right wingers (looking mostly at Sargon, PJW, and PragerU) praise Russia for "owning the libs" and "feminist SJWs" when in actuality, it is worse to be a woman in Russia than in Saudi Arabia?

Edited by Ishmael

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It does suck that people aren't really challenging Trump and by proxy Republican bs because a lot of stuff Trump does and supports is quite scary. Did you know that that most right wingers (looking mostly at Sargon, PJW, and PragerU) praise Russia for "owning the libs" and "feminist SJWs" when in actuality, it is worse to be a woman in Russia than in Saudi Arabia?

I am not sure about being a woman is worse in Russia than Saudi Arabia, but they both seem pretty comparable and horrible. At least in Russia, women stand a better chance of emigrating and leaving to go to a better country, but Saudi Arabia has only recently allowed women to travel abroad without male consent.

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28 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am not sure about being a woman is worse in Russia than Saudi Arabia, but they both seem pretty comparable and horrible. At least in Russia, women stand a better chance of emigrating and leaving to go to a better country, but Saudi Arabia has only recently allowed women to travel abroad without male consent.

The reason I criticise Russia more is because not only did it actually decriminalise domestic violence, it also is ranked number 1 for domestic violence and sexual harassment,  and it is reverting to old practices under the Orthodox Church. It also doesn't help that Russia also uses backwards Islamic law in respect to women (wife-beating and honour killings still persist in Russia). Hell, even immigration is hard for women and you require 3 male witnesses for a rape case.

I can't imagine any country willing to support Russia but here we are with only Sweden trying to do something against it.

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There probably might be a little to say about the fact that the country is run by an autocratic leader, with his oligarch friends. The one who blatantly rigged his own Russian election and swaps titles every so many years so he can remain in power indefinitely. The same people who admire him as a strong leader are probably the same to bemoan the loss of 'western civilisation' and in the same breath supposedly hold democracy to the highest degree.

A strongman leader to fall behind seems to be a common thing that conservatives desire, while saying that individualism is integral to them.

Edited by Tryhard

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12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The reason I criticise Russia more is because not only did it actually decriminalise domestic violence, it also is ranked number 1 for domestic violence and sexual harassment,  and it is reverting to old practices under the Orthodox Church. It also doesn't help that Russia also uses backwards Islamic law in respect to women (wife-beating and honour killings still persist in Russia). Hell, even immigration is hard for women and you require 3 male witnesses for a rape case.

I can't imagine any country willing to support Russia but here we are with only Sweden trying to do something against it.

I don't think America's gonna step in on this one.  Collusion/Cold War aside, it would mean involving ourselves in what's essentially a massive domestic clusterfuck.

Ideally, we would, but realistically, I can't see it ending well for either country.

6 hours ago, Tryhard said:

A strongman leader to fall behind seems to be a common thing that conservatives desire, while saying that individualism is integral to them.

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

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On 1/16/2020 at 7:42 PM, Johann said:

I genuinely think the only appropriate punishment includes all of the following

  • Life sentence
  • Seizing of all his assets
  • Castration

I think all those are good, but thinking what would hurt Trump the most.  Humiliation, public humiliation.  There should be a parade, maybe a tour, where he wears one of those wood board signs.  On the front it would say "Worst president ever", on the back it would say "Traitor".   He would wear a dunce hat, and people would be allowed to throw rotten fruit at him.  Oh yeah with Illhan Omar leading the parade and forcing him to keep walking forward.  

Then sit him in a room with a gun and he'll do the rest.  Anyone see the Dead Zone?  

26 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

Sadaam is brown of course they would be frothing at the mouth.  White male strongman that fits their crazy prejudices and ideas.

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On 1/18/2020 at 12:29 AM, eclipse said:

Caveat: Strongman leader that agrees with their internal monologue.  If someone like Saddam took power in the US, those conservatives would be frothing at the mouth.

And in the US, being white. For example, White Nationalists love the shit that Candace Owens spouts when it comes to them but they'll typically end any compliments by saying she'll never be one of them or just calling her something derogatory towards blacks. It's probably the same with the evangelical Christians that love Trump, they'll pretend they're fighting for their Religion when it's really for the "Christian Identity".

On 1/18/2020 at 12:56 AM, Lewyn said:

Sadaam is brown of course they would be frothing at the mouth.  White male strongman that fits their crazy prejudices and ideas.

This.

EDIT: 

 

Quote

He should be very careful with his words!

And his base demands a Civil War if he's impeached. Fuck this clown.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

I think all those are good, but thinking what would hurt Trump the most.  Humiliation, public humiliation.  There should be a parade, maybe a tour, where he wears one of those wood board signs.  On the front it would say "Worst president ever", on the back it would say "Traitor".   He would wear a dunce hat, and people would be allowed to throw rotten fruit at him.  Oh yeah with Illhan Omar leading the parade and forcing him to keep walking forward.  

Then sit him in a room with a gun and he'll do the rest.  Anyone see the Dead Zone? 

I figure it's not about hurting him so much as preventing him from hurting anyone else, in any way, ever again

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