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313 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      100
    • No
      130
    • Maybe
      83
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      59
    • No
      133
    • Indifferent
      50


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27 minutes ago, eclipse said:

We can infer what may happen, given Trump's record of behavior.  But we can't say for certain what will happen during the elections.  The country is deeply divided, and making assumptions about others is the last thing that we need.

That depends on the assumptions made. If the DNC nominates Biden because they assume "People will just vote for him anyway, there's no way they'll want to keep Trump in power", I'd say that's a dangerous path.

Meanwhile, even a polarizing douchebag like Tucker Carlson will tell the truth now and then and tell you not to sleep on Bernie Sanders because the candidate that will motivate the vote is the one that will improve people's lives.

You're right that there's no way to tell with 100% certainty what will happen but it is downright foolish to not see the signs suggesting what is likely to happen enough to be practically set in stone (Trump refusing to leave the white house, being acquitted by the Senate) and what comes with greater uncertainty (Trump implementing good economic policy for common people).

On the video above, Tucker Carlson said the left's crazy just like they'll always do on Fox News but it was the left that kept saying that Trump's economic policies will just involve tax cuts to benefit the rich and make regular folks pick up the tab by attempting to cut social security. That claim couldn't be more true, the tax cuts resulted in higher taxes for some folks and McConnell pushed for cuts to Medicaid and Social security. Meanwhile the right has been consistently lying to benefit the rich over the past 40 years and has ignored warnings of the discontent from their voters and rise in violence from them

The bottom line is that we have enough information in our history to make better decisions but we keep buying into the same garbage that's been spewed time and again due to how short our political memory can be, the video that Shoblogoo posted illustrating how the anti-immigrant rhetoric is ignored until it personally targets the individual should be shown to every Trump voter. "Republicans don't believe in a Representative Democracy" should be fact at this point given their recent history, not opinion.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

That depends on the assumptions made. If the DNC nominates Biden because they assume "People will just vote for him anyway, there's no way they'll want to keep Trump in power", I'd say that's a dangerous path.

The optimist in me thinks that the DNC learned its lesson after Hillary's defeat.  TRULY let the people decide, and it might work in their favor.

5 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

You're right that there's no way to tell with 100% certainty what will happen but it is downright foolish to not see the signs suggesting what is likely to happen enough to be practically set in stone (Trump refusing to leave the white house, being acquitted by the Senate) and what comes with greater uncertainty (Trump implementing good economic policy for common people).

Trump being acquitted - highly likely, but there isn't much either of us can do about it, short of voting those guys out.
Trump refusing to leave the White House - Assumes that he's voted out.  In the meantime, I predict things will go per usual (new guy sworn in and all), while Trump's camp does everything possible to invalidate the election (see 2000).  Unless the Senate interferes here. . .but how would they stop the results of the election, legally?

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

The optimist in me thinks that the DNC learned its lesson after Hillary's defeat.  TRULY let the people decide, and it might work in their favor.

I hope you're right. From the politicians themselves (like Nancy Pelosi), I haven't really seen such signs.

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Trump refusing to leave the White House - Assumes that he's voted out.  In the meantime, I predict things will go per usual (new guy sworn in and all), while Trump's camp does everything possible to invalidate the election (see 2000).  Unless the Senate interferes here. . .but how would they stop the results of the election, legally?

Honestly,  it's tough to tell as there's a lot of nuance to what the Senate and White House can do that both sides may be forgetting at this point in time, but don't put it past folks like Mitch McConnell to try to influence something that can alter the results and Nancy Pelosi to go along with it because she doesn't like the candidate or something (she's corrupt too, despite the good she's been doing). Recall what I said before about the 24 states where the Electoral College doesn't have to abide by the vote of the people:

On 1/7/2020 at 8:19 PM, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Indeed. Occasional reminder that there are 24 states in which the Electors in said Electoral College can actually vote for the OTHER candidate even though their state was won by the opposition. The popular vote gap could be as wide as 6 million and the Electoral College could still give Trump the win without even taking into account what I've just said about the unfaithful electors.

"But the same is true for the Democratic candidate, the Electoral College could hand the votes to the Democrat in states where Trump won."

Electors tend to be rich people or related to current and former politicians. If they're to pull that kind of shit, they'd most likely side with Trump as he's making the rich richer.

Of those 24, there are 4 swing states among them: Iowa, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Pennsylvania.

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I'm not one to get involved with politics because frankly, I hear so much about it that it's made me sick of it. However reading this thread has made me a bit concerned.

Please be careful not to alienate the other side too much. You run a high risk of running away people you might have otherwise convinced. Also, you end up just giving them more ammunition to fire back by saying "See? Everyone who thinks like this hates you and everything you believe in!" You're more than entitled to your beliefs, but digging your heels in too hard discourages discussion, and from that discourages answers and compromise that might actually end up being effective for both sides. Of course you can argue that others do the same thing, but them doing it doesn't make you doing it any better. In fact them doing it might even help you.

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The other side is a coalition of fundamentalist Christians(who are working towards nuclear war in the middle East, because they believe the Bible predicts it), racists and other assorted groups who think other groups need to be "removed"(ie. enslaved or murdered to the last), libertarian extremists, and other malcontent.

Considering the way the impeachment has gone, the way the Trump presidency went in general, and Obama 1 and 2 before it, I feel pretty confident in saying that the republicans can only be collaborated with in very limited ways, and even then it's distasteful. I'll pass on working together with a bunch of fucking nazis.

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The current politicians on the Republican side are for the most part, worthless when it comes to being leaders in it to govern and tackle the issues their society faces. They're just in it to get payed by the rich to undo legislation, pander to evangelical Christians by pushing abortion bans many of their voters don't even agree with and perpetuate the Southern Strategy to keep their job where they essentially do nothing but vote Yes on tax cuts and de-regulation when paid to push it and no on anything that benefits the common people even if it's bipartisan in nature (see the voting results for HR1 which includes making election day a holiday ).

The voters are a different case. Sure, you have Republican voters you can find common ground in when you talk to them but at the end of the day if they keep voting for the politicians that follow the same ideals that the party has been pushing for the past 40 years, specifically tax cuts with the supposed caveat that it will "trickle down", "pay for itself", etc, they're just getting scammed and allowing assholes more interested in destroying education to keep such voters complicit.

Then you also have the "dark side" of the Republican voters... Nazis/Racists. The Nazis basically see the Republican party as the "White people party" and while every politician can pretend that they condemn such folks, those folks are still part of their voting block as well as audience for their use of the Southern Strategy. Andrew Gillum once said of Ron DeSantis during a debate: “I’m not calling Mr. DeSantis a racist. I’m simply saying the racists believe he’s a racist.” and it is the truth, if they see you as racist as them, they'll want to vote to keep you in power while any case insubordination to a racist president or majority leader gets them riled up that they'll label you a RINO (Republican In Name Only) and advocate to have you removed because you're not racist enough. Hell, I recall a book writer that went out and interviewed many Republican voters finding that they rejected healthcare because of the bill signed by a black man.

It may seem condescending and I'm sure some would think "Who the fuck are you to know what's better for them?" but the fact is that getting in a President, Reps and Senators that will push to improve our healthcare system and invest more in education, NECESSARY infrastructure (ie not the wall) and other problems the common folks are facing instead of war and military is simply the easiest and best way to help everyone, including the racists.

Reaching out to Republican voters sounds nice and all, but the right-wing media just arms them with Republican talking points that instead of inviting good and honest discussion, it instead just ends up being stuff that will derail a conversation (see "How are we gonna pay for Medicare for All" when even opposition research has shown it would save money) or make them indirectly support something they don't necessarily agree with (see "Marijuana is a gateway drug" being the prime reason we have the highest incarceration rate).

I've family in New York that intends to vote for Trump this year. I've tried to talk sense to them (despite knowing that it doesn't matter because they're not in a swing state), it's too much effort that would need to be repeated a lot but it all just goes down the drain when the next day they'll just keep posting videos from Fox News on their facebook feed and saying "TRUMP 2020!". Concern for "alienating" Trump voters is a waste, getting non-voters to vote should be a focus.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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6 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

The other side is a coalition of fundamentalist Christians(who are working towards nuclear war in the middle East, because they believe the Bible predicts it), racists and other assorted groups who think other groups need to be "removed"(ie. enslaved or murdered to the last), libertarian extremists, and other malcontent.

Considering the way the impeachment has gone, the way the Trump presidency went in general, and Obama 1 and 2 before it, I feel pretty confident in saying that the republicans can only be collaborated with in very limited ways, and even then it's distasteful. I'll pass on working together with a bunch of fucking nazis.

 

14 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I'm not one to get involved with politics because frankly, I hear so much about it that it's made me sick of it. However reading this thread has made me a bit concerned.

Please be careful not to alienate the other side too much. You run a high risk of running away people you might have otherwise convinced. Also, you end up just giving them more ammunition to fire back by saying "See? Everyone who thinks like this hates you and everything you believe in!" You're more than entitled to your beliefs, but digging your heels in too hard discourages discussion, and from that discourages answers and compromise that might actually end up being effective for both sides. Of course you can argue that others do the same thing, but them doing it doesn't make you doing it any better. In fact them doing it might even help you.

Yeah not a particularly big fan of the “you have to be nice to Nazis or else more people will become Nazis” take. If you offer better options, the persuadables will come. If you’re dealing with people who are offended more by the things said about facists then by what facists actually do when they’re in power—well then those aren’t the  people we’re trying to reach. Those are the people we’re trying to beat.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

 If you’re dealing with people who are offended more by the things said about facists then by what facists actually do when they’re in power—well then those aren’t the  people we’re trying to reach. Those are the people we’re trying to beat.

It's safe to say that if you're dealing with people who are offended more by the things said about fascists, then they are sympathetic to, or may very well be, fascists.

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4 hours ago, Karimlan said:

It's safe to say that if you're dealing with people who are offended more by the things said about fascists, then they are sympathetic to, or may very well be, fascists.

Or they're **HIPSTERS** who think it's cool to be offended.  Regardless, such people are not the ones that can be reasoned with.  They'll listen to emotion over logic.  And when it comes to emotion, the Republicans win that one.

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I generally attack Republican politicians for having outdated and horrible socially conservative views.

I'll question any individual voter with the same draconian views, but while there are a large amount of Republican voters with views I find wrong, outside of the base that is simply "too far gone", they may be reachable. My goal is to show them that the Republican party is about the furthest from anti-establishment as you can get.

The frustrating part is when you start to go through reasons why you and a Republican voter may want more in common than you think, and they vote the way they do because of solely one thing, i.e abortion or guns (because they think the Democrats are going to send the round up crews or something, I guess)

Edited by Tryhard

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The arguments against abortion are more towards the emotional side.  Stuff like this isn't solely about a policy difference, it's a war of feelings.  I'm personally against abortion, but I'm for legalizing it, because I feel that other women shouldn't be bound to my morals.  That, and on the off chance I need one for medical reasons, I want as little red tape as possible.

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You also have to take into consideration that a random person espousing their views and an elected representative are very different things, especially when the latter often tries to enforce it through legislation.

The Republican politicians that were for banning gay marriage were never just choosing it for themselves, after all.

My grandfather was a racist, xenophobe, homophobe, and once remarked that 'Hitler would have sorted out those Jews' to us. He was also powerless in life and only served as an example to myself in what not to be.

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Thing about espoused views is that those that hold them tend to vote for those that agree with them.  So for the "CHRISTIAN VALUES" base, they're going to go with things that a "good Christian" would do - kill those that don't agree with them, restrict personal freedom, make sure the poor stay poor, and entrench their misguided views of their religion in the laws of the land.

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This goes much much further than simple differing political ideologies.  I am an independent, and in my lifetime have voted Republican, third party (most often), and Democrat.  This isn't about the 'issues' this is about democracy being threatened (something alt rights say all the time, except this time its for real).  Fake president Trump (he should be stripped of ever being president in history), is turning our democracy where the people have the power to a dictatorship where he alone has the power.  The Republican party instead of trying to talk him out of it or being appalled fully support being his puppets.  Just look at their joke of a defense in the impeachment trial.  The Democrats sound like intelligent professionals laying out evidence and logical arguments, the Republicans are like 5 year olds screaming a bunch of nonsense.  I personally will never support a Republican candidate in anything regardless again, cause they are corrupt and shameless almost all of them.  That is clear from what has been seen so far in the impeachment trial but also how they have supported Trump til now.

Fine.  However Fox FAKE news promotes this, and appallingly Trump still has an approval rating in the 40s.  So yeah a lot of hate is going towards his supporters and deservedly so (though should not act on it and it isn't the best way to convince them...that is if anything can).  

This isn't about a Republican president, this is about our Hitler, Nero, Stalin, etc.  I wouldn't care if Trump's political beliefs matched mine, cause this is about something much more important.  

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I can understand the naive, not-into-politics (very understandable) person's want of everyone to just get along. It's genuine, well-intentioned kindness.

It's just that politics aren't always a sports match where both sides are people of equal goodness in practice (barring any and all players who are/later come under criminal investigation). And thus, the naivete becomes problematic.

There are instances I (in my own naivete perhaps) think there may be a sincere clash of two not entirely worthless/wrong virtues. But, the modern American political situation is on the whole not that, it has a good and a bad/evil. If you had any thoughts of shedding a tear for McConnell when he got emotional on TV for failing to repeal Obamacare, I'm sorry, but your most wonderful human capacities to sympathize were sorely misplaced.

 

Working across the aisle can't happen until the wrong side of nominative history has had the life scared out of them and in shock they turn Democrat for a few moments until they reconstitute what the Right is. The only way to scare them like that, is to ride an election to full Democratic control of Congress and the Presidency. Which in a way invalidates the need to work across the aisle afterwards, but it could be a little helpful later if the Republicans are sufficiently scourged of their reactionary ways.  

And yes, for that, the masses of Republican voters need be converted. And as swords and auto-da-fes are antithetical to Democratic values, conversion must be done in peaceful ways respecting their humanity, but nonetheless criticizing individuals' instances of wrongful belief (especially those who engage in active advocacy) and positively encouraging them to move towards ones more beneficial for the world.

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@Lewyn I was a Republican when being a Republican meant supporting men like Bush Sr. and John McCain. 

Ronald Reagan was once asked why he left the Democratic Party and became a Republican. To which he famously responded: "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The Party left me."

That about sums up my feelings on contemporary Republican politics. Once there was something there that I identified with and was worth defending; but its gone now. Its not the same party anymore. 

6 hours ago, Karimlan said:

It's safe to say that if you're dealing with people who are offended more by the things said about fascists, then they are sympathetic to, or may very well be, fascists.

Matt Bors is my favorite political cartoonist in the business atm.

And takes like this are the reason why:

Related image

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Hey friends, I hope you've been watching the impeachment proceedings and think that the senate should force the white house to release subpoena'd documents that it's (illegally) kept from the congress investigation till now. I know I do.

If you haven't yet, PLEASE CALL YOUR SENATORS AND TELL THEM THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THE DOCUMENTS, AND THAT THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL HAS TO INCLUDE WITNESSES AND DOCUMENTS.

The senate's phone number is (202) 224-3121, they can put you through to your senators' staff. You don't even need to know who your senator is, if you tell them what state you're from, they'll put you through to the right senator.

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, Shoblongoo said:

@Lewyn I was a Republican when being a Republican meant supporting men like Bush Sr. and John McCain. 

Ronald Reagan was once asked why he left the Democratic Party and became a Republican. To which he famously responded: "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The Party left me."

That about sums up my feelings on contemporary Republican politics. Once there was something there that I identified with and was worth defending; but its gone now. Its not the same party anymore. 

Matt Bors is my favorite political cartoonist in the business atm.

And takes like this are the reason why:

Related image

Yeah the Republican party of today, really since the tea party movement, is unrecognizable compared to the one in the 80s and 90s.  They've somehow managed to keep support, so Fox is doing a great job I guess.  Also certain core points of the party like being Pro-life will mean that a good portion would never leave.

Cartoon is hilarious.  Realistically the hate has gone beyond the people in office, is has gone to supporters.  After all, if you do view Trump as scum on the level of Hitler and other historical tyrants then that hate often goes to people who would support such a person.  On the other side Fox has villainized the whole Democrat party as socialists set to destroy democracy and freedom making its viewers feel that supporters of such a party are anti American.

Really the best thing for the country would be the destruction of both parties (Democrats don't deserve it but bear with me) and power being distributed among many parties.  So when someone runs for something it isn't oh its a Republican I'll vote for them!  Or....it's a traitorous Democrat I will never vote for them regardless of policy!

3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Hey friends, I hope you've been watching the impeachment proceedings and think that the senate should force the white house to release subpoena'd documents that it's (illegally) kept from the congress investigation till now. I know I do.

If you haven't yet, PLEASE CALL YOUR SENATORS AND TELL THEM THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THE DOCUMENTS, AND THAT THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL HAS TO INCLUDE WITNESSES AND DOCUMENTS.

The senate's phone number is (202) 224-3121, they can put you through to your senators' staff. You don't even need to know who your senator is, if you tell them what state you're from, they'll put you through to the right senator.

All the democrat Senators will push for documents and witnesses, it is people who have Republican Senator reps that need to call and push them to vote for it as well.

Trump's defense which started today is a joke, something a grade schooler may come up with.  Every point is easily disputed and disproven.  It is really sad if this is the best they can come up with.  We all know Trump is guilty but if the defense could come up with a reasonable well worded argument that it isn't a bad enough crime for Impeachment or whatever, that is something Republican senators can easily cling on to.  If it is just what we've heard thusfar, GOP senators are going to look really bad voting on no witnesses, or even for acquittal.

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4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Trump's defense which started today is a joke, something a grade schooler may come up with.  Every point is easily disputed and disproven.  It is really sad if this is the best they can come up with.  We all know Trump is guilty but if the defense could come up with a reasonable well worded argument that it isn't a bad enough crime for Impeachment or whatever, that is something Republican senators can easily cling on to.  If it is just what we've heard thusfar, GOP senators are going to look really bad voting on no witnesses, or even for acquittal.

I think his voting base would be for acquittal, so no, the senators will only look bad to those that don't like Trump.

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A supermajority of over 70% of Americans want to see witnesses and documents. I'm going to guess it's because this is the first time a lot of them are really looking into it, and think it looks really bad.

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9 hours ago, Lewyn said:

 All the democrat Senators will push for documents and witnesses, it is people who have Republican Senator reps that need to call and push them to vote for it as well.

There's a decent chance a few democrats may abstain, or vote against if they think their constituents won't back it. So call regardless.

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15 hours ago, eclipse said:

I think his voting base would be for acquittal, so no, the senators will only look bad to those that don't like Trump.

Well is base would be for acquittal even if there was video footage, witnesses, and DNA evidence showing him killing infants and laughing while doing it.  However I am not talking about them.  I am talking about moderate Republicans, old school Republicans many of which can't stand Trump but hate Democrats. Also independents. 

Finally the Republican Senators in swing states in which a sham trial will look really bad.  Republican Senators lose seats makes it harder to pass the stuff they want, if they even lose the majority then Trump is gone weather he is re elected or not.  So it is in their interest to at least make it have the appearance of a legit trial while acquitting Trump anyways.

10 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

There's a decent chance a few democrats may abstain, or vote against if they think their constituents won't back it. So call regardless.

True, I will call too.  

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Opening statements are wrapped up now, and I have to say that the arguments the defence bring are all laughably bad, if not outright lies. Someone put several minutes of Jay Sekulow speaking to jakkety sax and I thought that was very fitting. 

And of course, the Bolton leaks. Holy shitsnacks, the firsthand witness has finally appeared.

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Republicans seem confident they have the votes to block witnesses, and go straight to the vote-to-acquit from opening arguments 

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The President's team, are they related to Ralph Wiggum?  What pathetic arguments, and a lot of jumping around, not a single good one.  Is one of these guys from Harvard or something?  Did his dad make a big donation?  Or maybe this is just Trump's direction and well he doesn't have much going on between the ears.

Well if they have the votes to block witnesses, and they do indeed do that.  Information is going to keep coming out, and the Democrats should impeach Trump again and again.  It isn't going away no matter how much those spineless cowards want it to.  

Oh yeah and Trump is trying to prevent Bolton book from being published, he is saying information is classified.  Bolton should just give him the middle finger and hold a press conference.

 

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