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293 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      93
    • No
      121
    • Maybe
      79
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      51
    • No
      122
    • Indifferent
      49


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3 hours ago, eclipse said:

"Disruption" doesn't necessarily mean "take votes away".  I think it's similar to Trump's campaign, where Bloomberg gets the media focused on him instead of Sanders.  I don't know if he wants to win, but I think he wants Bernie to lose.

Also, while Obama did a lot of good things, I think stuff like the covert drone strikes should stay dead.

I have not thought about it that way before, but I guess it sort of makes sense? He does not have a lot of time to do it though and it is not like Bernie is completely off the news either.

I am not expecting perfection from a candidate. With how much Trump lowered the bar, as long as the candidate wants what is best for America and is not a complete idiot, they would have my backing. I would not even mind Mitt Romney at this point, and I will even take Rubio and Kasich.

3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Bloomberg's history with New Yorkers isn't even great and quite frankly, him spending on the election is just him throwing money away for achieving absolutely nothing unless the DNC is actually stupid enough to give him the nomination

Yeah. Spending his way into the playing field does not exactly put up a great image.

3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

It does and the Southern Strategy has always been that way: it speaks directly to the woes of the white voters and points them to a possible solution,

I think that is something Democrats and the left can learn from. We need to speak to voters more directly and appeal to their values.

Just putting something like "Do you believe in the government's separation of powers?" or "Uncle Sam wants YOU to save America from corruption!" or something along those lines will help remind voters of what Republicans have blatantly ignored for the past few years. It does not have to be anything fancy, but it needs to address the voter and connect them the idea that Democrats right now are the ones trying to uphold American values and our Constitution.

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I saw Chris Matthews' comparing Sanders performance in Nevada to the Nazi invasion of France for some reason. Just nice. And this, of course.

 
It's becoming more certain in my mind that there is going to be sizable portion of Democrat politicians or media figures that talk a lot about hating Trump but would prefer him getting four more years to Sanders winning the general. For people like Bloomberg this makes sense because they stand to lose more if Sanders wins over Trump (because he and others aren't the victims at the end of Trump's policies, after all)
 
Edited by Tryhard

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  • Sanders might not be able to grab the swing states. Not to mention attempting to bring America to 100% renewable energy in 10 years is impossible.
  • Biden hasn't put together a strong campaign.
  • Warren has lost the leftist vote to Sanders.
  • Klobuchar and Buttigieg are too white and unappealing to rally the African-American and Latino votes.
  • Bloomberg just lost his debate credibility and is trying to buy a nomination.
  • And for some reason, Gabbard and Steyer are still in it?

 

:facepalm: We're doomed. Thats how I feel. I'd still toss my ballot to Sanders and encourage others to do the same. But the global far right wave will last another four years in this country. So much for the "blue wave" two years prior, it was a ripple, destined to ebb.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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Being the incumbent is usually a huge advantage regardless of the strength of the opposition. I cant say what will happen but I raise my eyebrow at people who say Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Biden or Bloomberg (???) could do any better vs Trump.

 

Edited by Tryhard

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7 hours ago, Tryhard said:

I saw Chris Matthews' comparing Sanders performance in Nevada to the Nazi invasion of France for some reason. Just nice. And this, of course.

 
It's becoming more certain in my mind that there is going to be sizable portion of Democrat politicians or media figures that talk a lot about hating Trump but would prefer him getting four more years to Sanders winning the general. For people like Bloomberg this makes sense because they stand to lose more if Sanders wins over Trump (because he and others aren't the victims at the end of Trump's policies, after all)
 

Chris Matthews said Bernie would have communist death squads executing people like him in Time Square like, a week and a half ago.

The guy is absolutely losing his marbles. Even my parents, who almost exclusively watch MSNBC for news, are fucking scared of how insane he comes off when he talks about Sanders.

Also, in case anyone doesn't remember, he said Hillary Clinton and John Kasich was his dream ticket in 2016. Not as in, like, Hillary vs. Kasich for the White House. He meant that he wanted to see those two run together. He's always passed himself off as the "sensible moderate", and he's probably starting to see how a large portion of the democratic base is rejecting the stances moderates take.

Edited by Slumber

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15 hours ago, Tryhard said:

It's becoming more certain in my mind that there is going to be sizable portion of Democrat politicians or media figures that talk a lot about hating Trump but would prefer him getting four more years to Sanders winning the general. For people like Bloomberg this makes sense because they stand to lose more if Sanders wins over Trump (because he and others aren't the victims at the end of Trump's policies, after all)

Bernie's changes are scary, because they're a giant shift away from what has become the norm in America (no matter how screwed up that norm is).  Big changes in a short amount of time are scary, and in some cases, ill-advised.  Much as I want Bernie's policies to go through, I predict that there will be a huge resurgence in Republican Senate/House seats, meaning that the amount of change he will be able to do will be heavily limited.

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The idea of Sanders having creepy communist death squads is almost silly. 

With Trump you're allowed to say he might eventually end up with creepy facist death squads because he went as close as he legally could to saying he wanted the Whistleblower shot and tends to call everyone who opposes him a traitor. 

But what exactly has Sanders done to make some loonie argue he wants death squads?

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5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But what exactly has Sanders done to make some loonie argue he wants death squads?

Propose policy that the rich don't like and having won the popular vote in the states that have participated in the primaries so far. Really, they're just trying so hard to not say the quiet parts out loud and end up saying asinine shit like this instead.

"I don't care what the people want, I'll take having Trump over Bernie in power because I'm rich and I don't want my taxes to go up" is probably what he would like to say and it would be less ridiculous than what he's said so far.

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

Bernie's changes are scary, because they're a giant shift away from what has become the norm in America (no matter how screwed up that norm is).  Big changes in a short amount of time are scary, and in some cases, ill-advised.  Much as I want Bernie's policies to go through, I predict that there will be a huge resurgence in Republican Senate/House seats, meaning that the amount of change he will be able to do will be heavily limited.

I love how the fear-mongering of changes from Sanders' policies evokes more emotion than the fact that the Republican party would be disproportionately hurt by the removal of lies and misinformation on social media.

Ignorance must really be quite bliss indeed.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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Disgusted by how many Democrat commentators/analysts are just ripping on Bernie and doing the same kind of fear mongering that Fox and co love to do.  The 60 minutes with Anderson Cooper tonight was appalling.  They were way nicer to Trump when he was on. 

However maybe that 'outsider/anti establishment' thing will get him even more supporters.  

Yang was who I supported, but since he dropped out, I am all in with Bernie.  Firstly he is the only one that can beat Trump, and it is for a simple reason that doesn't have to do with his policies.  He is an inspiration speaker, charismatic, and he delivers short easy to grasp messages.  Medicare for all, college debt cancellation, free public college, etc.  Most people don't pay attention to politics, so simple 'slogans' are incredibly effective.  Secondly regardless of how difficult it may be for him to pass these policies and all the countless details and thing to account for, I think the most important thing is to have a person who wants what is best for the people and who is a human being of high moral value.  Bernie has been fighting for the people his whole life, all the way back in college Chicago, fighting against segregation of schools and racism in real estate, to environment battling.  He's got a heart of gold and is what we need after the no heart narcissistic scum that is sitting in the white house presently.  

As for why Bernie bros (or supporters, many of them females BTW) may not vote if Bernie doesn't win the candidacy.  Can you really blame them?  With what happened with the DNC 2016, and how they are treating him thusfar, all trust is lost.  Many are disgusted with the Democrat party and they have plenty of reason to be.

 

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8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But what exactly has Sanders done to make some loonie argue he wants death squads?

It's playing on the fears of the uneducated, and those that fear change.

3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

I love how the fear-mongering of changes from Sanders' policies evokes more emotion than the fact that the Republican party would be disproportionately hurt by the removal of lies and misinformation on social media.

Ignorance must really be quite bliss indeed.

It's drastic change.  It's easier to stick with something that's comfortable than something that's different, even if "comfortable" isn't a good thing.

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

As for why Bernie bros (or supporters, many of them females BTW) may not vote if Bernie doesn't win the candidacy.  Can you really blame them?  With what happened with the DNC 2016, and how they are treating him thusfar, all trust is lost.  Many are disgusted with the Democrat party and they have plenty of reason to be.

I'd think their dislike of Trump would outweigh whatever bitterness they had for the DNC.  But alas.

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Hopefully we all keep in mind that winning the presidency does not result in rapid systematic change, and we're gonna get neither the death squads or the amazing socialist revolution.

Our government really, really doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

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9 hours ago, Crysta said:

Hopefully we all keep in mind that winning the presidency does not result in rapid systematic change, and we're gonna get neither the death squads or the amazing socialist revolution.

Our government really, really doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

I'm far more afraid of the Republicans taking over the Senate/House.

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9 hours ago, Crysta said:

Hopefully we all keep in mind that winning the presidency does not result in rapid systematic change, and we're gonna get neither the death squads or the amazing socialist revolution.

Our government really, really doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

Depends on the type of change. In terms of foreign relations, the White House has enormous influence. Our hard and soft power diminished significantly under Trump.

The biggest blow to our hard power in my opinion is backing out of the TPP and the disruption to trade with allies which blunts our economic influence, and disruption to NATO which decreases our coordination and effectiveness when responding to threats like Russia and China.

Trump also significantly destroyed much of the soft power the last few presidents built up. We lost influence by backing out of the Paris Agreement, which I think even North Korea signed and did not back out. The way Trump acts towards allies also generated a huge amount of personal ill will, and it is bad that it went on the news that foreign leaders actively made fun of Trump behind his back and Trump caught wind of it and sulked and flew back to mommy crying like a total wuss. While no children died (I think), Trump has no excuse in how he is treating refugees and separating families at the border.

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15 hours ago, eclipse said:

 

I'd think their dislike of Trump would outweigh whatever bitterness they had for the DNC.  But alas.

Bernie supporters are not like supporters of many of the other Dem candidates.  They aren't necessarily Democrats, so they aren't looking at what is best for the 'party', they just love Bernie.  Just like Trump supporters love him rather than the Republican party necessarily.  Hey if Biden or whoever actually wins the majority legit or whatever, I don't think they will not vote.  However if Sanders has a big lead but it goes to brokered convention and then someone else gets the nomination that is a different story.  

Trump re election along with House and Senate under Republican party control would be horrifying and this is a large part of Dem party fear of Bernie.   I think they are being paranoid though, and just hurting their party's chances overall.  

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2 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Bernie supporters are not like supporters of many of the other Dem candidates.  They aren't necessarily Democrats, so they aren't looking at what is best for the 'party', they just love Bernie.  

The common thread of Sanders and Trump is that base voters for decades have felt like the mainstream body politics of their respective parties have failed to represent them on-the-issues. And party bosses have have met their grievances with pissy lectures on how the kind of talk they want to hear from their leaders is "unelectable."   

And the base voters are finally telling the party bosses to go fuck themselves + treating their doom-and-gloom over the prospect of THAT candidate winning the party's nomination as a boon, rather than as a demerit. 

...the notable difference of course being that the R's were looking for a candidate who would break party convention that its 'unelectable' to treat Latin American immigration as a hostile takeover of white America...

...and the D's are looking for a candidate who breaks party convention that its 'unelectable' to run on European Socialism, universal healthcare, and free college...

...but hey details...   

On 2/23/2020 at 1:37 PM, eclipse said:

Bernie's changes are scary, because they're a giant shift away from what has become the norm in America (no matter how screwed up that norm is).  Big changes in a short amount of time are scary, and in some cases, ill-advised.  Much as I want Bernie's policies to go through, I predict that there will be a huge resurgence in Republican Senate/House seats, meaning that the amount of change he will be able to do will be heavily limited.

[Biden in 2019]: "Bernie isn't electable in a general election. I'm the most electable general election candidate in the field. I'm the most electable because I'm the Democrat who can win those white blue-collar workers that voted for Trump. Bernie can only appeal to the party base."

[Biden in 2020]: "Well we're gonna comeback in South Carolina because voters of color are the real base of the democratic party, and thats where we expect to hit our real appeal. Yeah--Bernie did great in Iowa and New Hampshire--but thats only because those states are mono-white and he really does great with those white blue-color voters. That doesn't mean anything."

--------

Take heart in knowing there's absolutely zero evidence that the Bidens and the Klobuchars and the like were more electable alternatives to Sanders. And if anything, the reverse seems to be true.

 

   

Edited by Shoblongoo

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I know one Trump supporter saying he like Bernie more than the other Dems. He's just a little worried the government will take away his car and force car companies to stop selling non-electric ones. The difference between a voter who does and does not understand the stakes of presidential elections? The one who's illogically afraid of consequences shows up to vote. So I'm definitely worried about the general if only because the narrative that both candidates are really just the same at the end of the day pervades every election no matter how ridiculous the statement gets. And it's that narrative that keeps people home, especially when it's incumbent vs. challenger.

 

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1 hour ago, Shoblongoo said:

 

The common thread of Sanders and Trump is that base voters for decades have felt like the mainstream body politics of their respective parties have failed to represent them on-the-issues. And party bosses have have met their grievances with pissy lectures on how the kind of talk they want to hear from their leaders is "unelectable."   

And the base voters are finally telling the party bosses to go fuck themselves + treating their doom-and-gloom over the prospect of THAT candidate winning the party's nomination as a boon, rather than as a demerit. 

...the notable difference of course being that the R's were looking for a candidate who would break party convention that its 'unelectable' to treat Latin American immigration as a hostile takeover of white America...

...and the D's are looking for a candidate who breaks party convention that its 'unelectable' to run on European Socialism, universal healthcare, and free college...

...but hey details...   

[Biden in 2019]: "Bernie isn't electable in a general election. I'm the most electable general election candidate in the field. I'm the most electable because I'm the Democrat who can win those white blue-collar workers that voted for Trump. Bernie can only appeal to the party base."

[Biden in 2020]: "Well we're gonna comeback in South Carolina because voters of color are the real base of the democratic party, and thats where we expect to hit our real appeal. Yeah--Bernie did great in Iowa and New Hampshire--but thats only because those states are mono-white and he really does great with those white blue-color voters. That doesn't mean anything."

--------

Take heart in knowing there's absolutely zero evidence that the Bidens and the Klobuchars and the like were more electable alternatives to Sanders. And if anything, the reverse seems to be true.

Well said, and let's not forget the classic: "Only a Centrist can beat Trump". The Democratic leadership hasn't learned the harsh lesson it needs to and their current use of the word unity appears to be a euphemism for "Submit to the status quo".

There needs to be more emphasis on policy and how it affects the people of the country and less of the "left vs right" garbage. Destroy the Oligarchy first and foremost.

15 hours ago, Crysta said:

Hopefully we all keep in mind that winning the presidency does not result in rapid systematic change, and we're gonna get neither the death squads or the amazing socialist revolution.

Our government really, really doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

Indeed. The Republicans will likely play the same way they did with Obama. As I've said many times in this thread, what needs to happen is to make it evident to the people of the country that the true "do-nothing" party are the Republicans. But that's why the person pushing change is a necessity to put into the presidency because at the very least, compromises WILL have to come from the Republican party if they wish to maintain their political careers. Getting money out of politics is an essential change that must come sooner rather than later and we're not going to see it from folks taking donations from the Billionaires and with Sanders it will be quite the uphill battle but at least it's better than what we can expect from the moderates/centrists: Cleaning up after Republicans.

Remember, "Nothing would fundamentally change" if Joe Biden's elected. His campaign deserves to sink.

4 hours ago, Lewyn said:

 However if Sanders has a big lead but it goes to brokered convention and then someone else gets the nomination that is a different story.  

That's looking like the most likely outcome with each passing day, specially after the most recent debate.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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Joe Biden just generally sucks at running for president and I don't think you need to try very hard to sink him lol

You don't need a centrist, you just need a politician who can connect and/or scare voters. Trump did both and eked out a win in spite of having next to no political finesse (in fact, not having any polish turned out to be appealing).

As for down ballot candidates and the House/Senate, yeah, we're gonna rough time. That wouldn't have changed with Biden being there instead, though.

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Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

34 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Well said, and let's not forget the classic: "Only a Centrist can beat Trump". The Democratic leadership hasn't learned the harsh lesson it needs to and their current use of the word unity appears to be a euphemism for "Submit to the status quo".

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

It is not that I disagree with most policies further left, but I am a little skeptical of their ability to get things done. If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently. I want free education and I am fine with nationalized healthcare, but I do not think it is the right approach to rush it without considering how to actually implement and preserve those policies. We still need moderate Republicans to help secure each step of the way. Obamacare may be gutted, but the framework and the foundation is still there, and a decent fraction of Republicans were hesitant to repealing it, and we need those Republicans.

34 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Joe Biden just generally sucks at running for president and I don't think you need to try very hard to sink him lol

You don't need a centrist, you just need a politician who can connect and/or scare voters. Trump did both and eked out a win in spite of having next to no political finesse (in fact, not having any polish turned out to be appealing).

For me, the appeal of Biden is that he seems calm and seems to have the most relevant experience since he was Vice President.

His campaign is not great, but it is not terrible either. As long as he can maintain and expand a bit more on what Obama achieves, I am happy with that.

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2 hours ago, XRay said:

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

The evidence points to most of the Democratic candidates not moving at all. People like to think we in the US currently function as a Centrist country but are we really? Obama was viewed as conservative by folks in Europe and our right-wing party is a place literal Nazis feel welcomed in and are able to win. What policies are actually so far left that we end up becoming Left instead of just going to the center or getting close. Is moving further to the right like we are with Trump any better when that's just resulting in hypocritical lawmakers and "pay 2 legislate" garbage these motherfucking politicians should be locked up for instead? What if AOC is correct when she says the current Democratic is indeed "Center-Right".

Based on what I've seen so far, going with a "moderate" candidate is playing for the short term and setting up Republicans to win in the next cycle because the moderate candidate will just spend most of their time cleaning up and getting nothing done.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

 If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently.

Here's an idea: Fuck the current Republican politicians. They're pieces of shit still claiming to be the party of Lincoln while cowering before a wannabe dictator now that they're finally reaping what they've sowed with their use of the Southern Strategy. They're the party that makes Nazis feel welcome, the party that wants to elect their voters instead of having people vote, the party where "consensual rape" has been conceived. The sooner this country realizes that the current politicians in the Republican party are owed nothing but scorn and more blame for the problems in the country over the last 40 years than the Democrats, the sooner we can start getting politicians focusing on actual issues instead of pandering to racists and abortion obsessed evangelicals.

Obama tried to work with Republicans and they outright refused because the man is black and had no interest in legislation with him around. Biden thinking that he can work with them is a delusion in the context of getting anything necessary done in the country and part of Trump's appeal was that he seemed different than the other Republican nominees because he promised not to cut social security as well as some non-wall related campaign promises that were actually good but as well know, they got conned. Oh and "shaking up DC", that was part of his appeal too.

 

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

That's looking like the most likely outcome with each passing day, specially after the most recent debate.

Fortunately, the way things are going, even if Bernie doesn't get more than 50%, the contribution of Super Delegates won't be enough to close the gap between Bernie and #2. Bernie's huge win in Nevada only serves to add to his momentum, and he's surging in South Carolina, which is Biden's last hope to gain any momentum before Super Tuesday. Warren meanwhile is polling just kinda okay everywhere, and Buttigieg's biggest hopes were in states that already voted.

This all changes when people start dropping out, though. Bernie benefits the most right now from the cluttered field, much like Trump did in 2016.

Anyway, dropped off my ballot today. I haven't checked how Bernie's doing in Minnesota, so it'll be interesting to see how close it is between him and Klobuchar.

Edited by Slumber

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17 hours ago, XRay said:

Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

You're right, it's March 3rd. Turned in my ballot last weekend (voting by mail).

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17 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

People like to think we in the US currently function as a Centrist country but are we really?

Nope.  We're right of center.

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20 hours ago, XRay said:

Did my voting thing today. Just a friendly reminder that California's ballot is due in early March (I forgot the actual date, I think it is March 3rd or something), so do your research and submit your votes soon!

Moderates make up a pretty significant chunk of the Democratic Party, so there is a reason why the leadership is less willing to move more left than necessary. As a moderate, I am mostly fine with the Democratic leadership so far, and I prefer them to stay that way.

It is not that I disagree with most policies further left, but I am a little skeptical of their ability to get things done. If Obama has difficulty working with Republicans, I am not sure candidates further left can get things done any more efficiently. I want free education and I am fine with nationalized healthcare, but I do not think it is the right approach to rush it without considering how to actually implement and preserve those policies. We still need moderate Republicans to help secure each step of the way. Obamacare may be gutted, but the framework and the foundation is still there, and a decent fraction of Republicans were hesitant to repealing it, and we need those Republicans.

For me, the appeal of Biden is that he seems calm and seems to have the most relevant experience since he was Vice President.

His campaign is not great, but it is not terrible either. As long as he can maintain and expand a bit more on what Obama achieves, I am happy with that.

...its pretty terrible...

Like--the nicest thing I have to say about the Biden campaign right now is ...well they didn't shit-the-bed quite as hard as Mike Bloomberg...

Biden's a good guy and would probably make a decent president, but he sucks at campaigning. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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19 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Here's an idea: Fuck the current Republican politicians. They're pieces of shit still claiming to be the party of Lincoln while cowering before a wannabe dictator now that they're finally reaping what they've sowed with their use of the Southern Strategy. They're the party that makes Nazis feel welcome, the party that wants to elect their voters instead of having people vote, the party where "consensual rape" has been conceived. The sooner this country realizes that the current politicians in the Republican party are owed nothing but scorn and more blame for the problems in the country over the last 40 years than the Democrats, the sooner we can start getting politicians focusing on actual issues instead of pandering to racists and abortion obsessed evangelicals.

Maybe after another 20 years or so when Texas turns blue, but we cannot just ignore Republicans right now. We simply do not have enough of a majority to completely go without Republicans. Even if we solve gerrymandering and all that voting suppression crap, about half the country is Republican or lean that way.

6 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

...its pretty terrible...

Like--the nicest thing I have to say about the Biden campaign right now is ...well they didn't shit-the-bed quite as hard as Mike Bloomberg...

It is lackluster and very boring, I agree, but I do not think that is an automatic bad thing.

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