General US Politics

[XRay]

I am fine with people acting in self defense. While I do not agree with destroying police property, it is a reasonable response and it is at least justifiable on some level.

What is not justifiable is causing collateral damage to people who are not related to law enforcement. Sure, big corporate retailers like Target will probably be fine and can take the hit, but many small businesses cannot take that level of financial devastation. Looters and rioters who target innocent businesses for destruction are ruining other people's livelihoods and jeopardizing jobs.

Imagine lawyers, bakers, hair stylists, car mechanics, etc. owning their own small business. Maybe they even support the protestors by offering free legal consultation, cookies, hair cuts, oil change, or whatever, and then they come back the next morning to find their business destroyed by looters and rioters over night. That is devastating. Assuming the business is managed extremely prudently financially (many are not, and are practically living paycheck to paycheck) and got a reasonable amount of emergency funds to pay off any remaining expenses, the owners themselves are still people with bills to pay. Mortgage, car loan, personal debt, utility bills, etc. all still needs to be paid off and they do not disappear just cause the business disappeared.

[Shrimpica]

When a society cares more about it's material belongings than the lives of it's people, then that society deserves riots.

I don't agree with rioting myself, but i 100% understand them.

And let's not forget it's the police who attacked the protesters first in most placed. The riots only happened after brutal police response. In places where police was peaceful protests were also peaceful.

There're areas where police shots people like this https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gtsaam/please_make_this_go_viral_i_am_begging_you_police/

And other areas were cops are being humans, like https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/gttn56/cops_in_flint_laid_down_all_their_gear_and_start/

Guess which leads to riots and which leads to co-existence.

TL;DR: treat people with respect if you don't want riots

[Lord Raven]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

What is not justifiable is causing collateral damage to people who are not related to law enforcement. Sure, big corporate retailers like Target will probably be fine and can take the hit, but many small businesses cannot take that level of financial devastation. Looters and rioters who target innocent businesses for destruction are ruining other people's livelihoods and jeopardizing jobs.

Collateral damage is going to happen. It's unfortunate but everyone's paying attention.

There's always going to be bad actors in every movement. It's unavoidable with protest of this scale. Especially when the police shot first. At some point they will say "maybe you should blame the police for sitting on each other's dicks for 50 years after the last time," because ultimately that's what this is.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Imagine lawyers, bakers, hair stylists, car mechanics, etc. owning their own small business. Maybe they even support the protestors by offering free legal consultation, cookies, hair cuts, oil change, or whatever, and then they come back the next morning to find their business destroyed by looters and rioters over night. That is devastating. Assuming the business is managed extremely prudently financially (many are not, and are practically living paycheck to paycheck) and got a reasonable amount of emergency funds to pay off any remaining expenses, the owners themselves are still people with bills to pay. Mortgage, car loan, personal debt, utility bills, etc. all still needs to be paid off and they do not disappear just cause the business disappeared.

The stats will come out as to what's getting destroyed and how much damage is being done. There's some excess wanton destruction that's going to happen, but... At some point, if this feels abstract to people, nothing will happen and nobody will mobilize. 

Lawyers can work from home and many of the other businesses are already fucked up because of the lack of proper aid given to places. Everyone just got 1200 dollars and was told to go fuck themselves, and the reopening orders will disproportionately affect black people anyway... A lot of the legislation for reopening affects the working class hard.

I really honestly don't think there's a lot left to lose in many of these cities. It's called a bad look because people only want to draw attention away from the message, anyway, but we will see. The amount of black people who've been through all this and worse through the last 50-100 years, and the amount the government has gone out of its way to halt any prosperity within their communities, including by killing MLK.. yeah, this was a long time coming, and focusing solely on what's destroyed doesn't do it justice. At some point, nobody wants to hear it.

The smaller riots like Baltimore completely disappeared into the aether. Hopefully this will be so widespread that it won't.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

When a society cares more about it's material belongings than the lives of it's people, then that society deserves riots.

This is not about material belongings being more important than people's lives. Rioters and looters are destroying innocent people's livelihoods. I value the livelihoods of innocent people far more than I value the life of rioters and looters who are just criminals at this point. Just because a criminal A does something horrible does not mean victim C has the right to take out their anger on innocent person B. People pour their life savings and an arm and leg into their businesses.

I have no sympathy for these rioters and looters who targets innocents, and I would not blame any shop owner from shooting these criminals in self defense if push comes to shove.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

I don't agree with rioting myself, but i 100% understand them.

If they were just targeting police property, I would not have much to say against them. I do not agree with destroying police property because not all police are bad, but at least targeting police property for destruction makes sense.

Targeting innocent people's property does not make sense and that just makes those rioters and looters asshole criminals.

1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

I don't agree with rioting myself, but i 100% understand them.

I am fine with most of the protestors and some rioters since they are not taking out their anger indiscriminately. However, I really do not like the bad apples who are just taking advantage of the situation and doing whatever the fuck they want. I want these rioters and looters to be charged with the harshest punishment to the full extent of the law. I want their livelihoods to be taken away just as they have taken away the livelihoods of others.

1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Lawyers can work from home and many of the other businesses are already fucked up because of the lack of proper aid given to places. Everyone just got 1200 dollars and was told to go fuck themselves, and the reopening orders will disproportionately affect black people anyway... A lot of the legislation for reopening affects the working class hard.

I really honestly don't think there's a lot left to lose in many of these cities. It's called a bad look because people only want to draw attention away from the message, anyway, but we will see. The amount of black people who've been through all this and worse through the last 50-100 years, and the amount the government has gone out of its way to halt any prosperity within their communities, including by killing MLK.. yeah, this was a long time coming, and focusing solely on what's destroyed doesn't do it justice. At some point, nobody wants to hear it.

Not every business can telework from home. Just because businesses are left closed does not mean there is little to no value in them. Commercial property is expensive. Just the fixtures and equipment in a restaurant alone can cost upwards of tens of thousands of dollars. Merchandise can also cost thousands of dollars.

What black people has gone through in this country is horrible and inexcusable, but that does not mean it is okay to retaliate against innocent people and fuck them over. Business owners are not a monolithic group of rich people. Many are scraping by with thin margins.

The black community suffering from police brutality needs to be heard. However, the fact that innocent businesses are also getting destroyed also needs to be heard. Business owners and their employees are people too.

[Shrimpica]

16 minutes ago, XRay said:

I value the livelihoods of innocent people far more than I value the life of rioters and looters who are just criminals at this point.

What about innocent lives who've already been lost? It's normal to feel anger over those. Especially after all these years.

This video explains it very well.

why should they care about the livelihoods of others, if they are getting murdered randomly?

16 minutes ago, XRay said:

innocent people

Those who don't speak up against injustice are silent Devils.

How many times did these ''innocent'' people just shut up infront of discrimnated lives just to preserve the status quo?

How many of these ''innocent'' people did vote for a person that said explicitly multipe times that he is ready to fuck over minorities?

Why should the discriminated people care then?

There comes a moment where innocent isn't really innocent anymore, and that moment has since long passed.

And as we saw from some good examples, in places where police doesn't go full brutal police mode the protests have been peaceful.

 

Again, i don't agree with these riots, but their anger is understandable. And there are people abusing the chance.

However those riots should not be given a higher importance than lives lost. It's the police who started this, and is still pulling bs.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Shrimperor

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

If they were just targeting police property, I would not have much to say against them. I do not agree with destroying police property because not all police are bad, but at least targeting police property for destruction makes sense.

Guess where the money to pay for those damaged police stations comes from?  Yeah.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Those who don't speak up against injustice are silent Devils.

You first.  As in, put your name and family at risk to expose some injustice or other.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

What about innocent lives who've already been lost? It's normal to feel anger over those. Especially after all these years.

It is okay to be angry over those lives lost. What is not okay is taking it out against people who are not part of the police.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Those who don't speak up against injustice are silent Devils.

And how do you know that those shop owners did not already speak out against the police and injustice? Is spreading the word not enough? Is voting Democrat not enough? Is trying to keep their community members employed through the pandemic not enough? Does every shop owner have to be in front of their store and yell "police brutality is bad" every single hour of the day to avoid having their store targeted? Those shops are not in a rural town in the middle of nowhere. Those shops are in the downtowns of decently sized cities where the people who work and live there are more likely than not to be Democrats and liberals who are on the side of George Floyd, and are equally disgusted by the actions of the police.

I know it is highly unlikely, but what if those rioters and looters turned their attention towards people's homes or even your home? Does a black person being murdered make it okay for rioters trash and burn down your house? Do you think it is reasonable that you have to sit outside your house and hold up a "screw the police" sign to avoid having your home destroyed?

Protesters and rioters having a scuffle with the police I am okay with. I am not okay with rioters targeting police property, but I am not going to judge them too harshly for it either cause the police did throw the punch first. Rioters and looters who goes after innocent businesses though? That is unacceptable and that does not deserve our sympathy, and we should not try to justify their actions.

Is it okay for Nazis, the Soviet Union, and America to achieve prosperity by exterminating, enslaving, or maltreat minorities and/or indigenous people because they have suffered from previous national humiliation, harsh Tsarist regime, or unfair economic/political treatment? Of course it should not be okay. Then why should we try to justify the actions of rioters and looters who go after innocent businesses?

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Those who don't speak up against injustice are silent Devils.

Yeah, it is coming from my tax dollars too, but if the rioters and looters must go after something, I rather they just limit it to the police instead of going after businesses. The local police departments can be bailed out financially with tax dollars. Local small businesses though do not have that luxury.

[Lord Raven]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Not every business can telework from home. Just because businesses are left closed does not mean there is little to no value in them. Commercial property is expensive. Just the fixtures and equipment in a restaurant alone can cost upwards of tens of thousands of dollars. Merchandise can also cost thousands of dollars.

What black people has gone through in this country is horrible and inexcusable, but that does not mean it is okay to retaliate against innocent people and fuck them over. Business owners are not a monolithic group of rich people. Many are scraping by with thin margins.

If they didn't have insurance, they are screwed. Many do have insurance. My dad's business burnt down 12 years ago and we got 1 million dollars to help rebuild our business. The business was as local as it gets. At some point, these complaints ring shallow.

As it stands, there's almost no deaths (6 deaths and around 3-4 seem accidental) either.

I can quote a white moderate quote at this point, because people were pissy about the kneeling.

Quote

The black community suffering from police brutality needs to be heard. However, the fact that innocent businesses are also getting destroyed also needs to be heard. Business owners and their employees are people too.

The police started it. They're not supposed to be above the law.

 

I've also had 5 years to digest my thoughts and ignore all the "stop the looting of local businesses!" There's a lot of bad actors. The primary protests are responding to the police, and there's always going to be bad actors. It seems like this is the "a couple bad apples" argument, except that we as a nation keep applying that to police to justify their actions.

This isn't a protest against you or local businesses, really.

[Shrimpica]

30 minutes ago, XRay said:

And how do you know that those shop owners did not already speak out against the police and injustice? Is spreading the word not enough? Is voting Democrat not enough? Is trying to keep their community members employed through the pandemic not enough? Does every shop owner have to be in front of their store and yell "police brutality is bad" every single hour of the day to avoid having their store targeted? Those shops are not in a rural town in the middle of nowhere. Those shops are in the downtowns of decently sized cities where the people who work and live there are more likely than not to be Democrats and liberals who are on the side of George Floyd, and are equally disgusted by the actions of the police.

I may know that. You may know that.

Tell that to the one who has been getting discriminated all these years and whenever he tried to peacefully stand up he gets yelled at, sneered at, shot at and murdered.

As i said, i am against the riots, but i understand them. Their anger. There are also those who abuse the situation. And all of them should be punished. But the police should be punished first. 

still, trying to imagine some one i know in the situation and being randomly shot at...

Yikes. I know i wouldn't respond happily to people telling me to shut up and live my life like it was normal. And to be more angry at some material belongings over the lifes lost..

When i was talking with my dad over the phone earlier today, he said the same thing, how destroying stuff is senseless and useless. And i agree with that.

But there's sometimes a certain point is reached where you can't control the anger anymore.

 

And we shouldn't divert from all the police brutality happening by talkig about riots. Police brutality that is the reason for all of this happening in the first place.

43 minutes ago, XRay said:

Is it okay for Nazis, the Soviet Union, and America to achieve prosperity by exterminating, enslaving, or maltreat minorities and/or indigenous people because they have suffered from previous national humiliation, harsh Tsarist regime, or unfair economic/political treatment? Of course it should not be okay. Then why should we try to justify the actions of rioters and looters who go after innocent businesses?

And this is the point i brought up earlier.

Material belongings shouldn't be equated with human lives.

The scales are waaaay different.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Friendly reminder that peaceful protests do exist all over the country, you just haven't been seeing any footage or news coverage of such events because there's nothing fantastic to say about it besides concern trolling about people not taking COVID seriously. The evidence is also piling up that violence typically occurs when police show up, is perpetrated primarily by out of towners hoping to frame the movement as being violent, or is actively prevented by responsible protesters shielding buildings and police officers with nothing but their arms stretched wide.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Lord Raven]

Just now, Glennstavos said:

Friendly reminder that peaceful protests do exist all over the country, you just haven't been seeing any footage or news coverage of such events because there's nothing fantastic to say about it besides concern trolling about people not taking COVID seriously. The evidence is also piling up that violence typically occurs when police show up, is perpetrated primarily by out of towners hoping to frame the movement as being violent, or is actively prevented by responsible protesters shielding buildings and police officers with nothing but their arms stretched wide.

100%. Even the peaceful parts of the "riotous" protests are not showing.

A lot of the "riots" are people fighting back against the police.

[Shrimpica]

18 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Friendly reminder that peaceful protests do exist all over the country, you just haven't been seeing any footage or news coverage of such events because there's nothing fantastic to say about it besides concern trolling about people not taking COVID seriously. The evidence is also piling up that violence typically occurs when police show up, is perpetrated primarily by out of towners hoping to frame the movement as being violent, or is actively prevented by responsible protesters shielding buildings and police officers with nothing but their arms stretched wide.

And to add to that, in places where the police has been respectful and co-operating, everything is ok.

like 

Spoiler

or

https://v.redd.it/o31o7jsji1251

or

https://v.redd.it/9tqi48q2l4251

 

We shouldn't hold civilians to higher standards than the police. It should be the other way around.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Shrimperor

[Excellen Browning]

The fact that white people are out in great numbers gives me some hope that we've finally crossed the line and are starting to move away from racism as a society.

[Lewyn]

There is a lot of disturbing violent footage from both sides if you look out there, I won't post it here of course.  Mummy Guliani and Trump have used it to play politics again, Democrat governors can't handle their state!   

Here is a message to Fox and the right wing, stop mislabeling things, deflecting.  Have a real conversation about treatment of blacks and minorities in the justice system, by police.  Just saying bullshit like BLUE LIVES MATTER, no that isn't what Black lives matter movement was about.  

People are sick of putting up with it.  I'm sorry and I will say something controversial here, white people will never understand (accept Jews if they are considered white) the discrimination that colored people face.  Not just dramatic things like what we see here, but more subtle things that happen on a regular basis.  It is good that many are trying to understand and sympathize though.  However there are many that won't even try.  So a black person got choked to death, police have killed white people too!  WTF are they rioting for, peaceful protests are how you get things done.  Forgetting how Black lives matter, I can't breathe, Kneeling, protests were ignored and villainized in right wing media.  

Even when there was a black president, with the various incidents the Martin killing, black lives matter, etc.  He just barely mentioned maybe there needs to be a conversation so we can understand what is going on.  He was ridiculed and lambasted as anti cop and other BS.  Yeah slavery ended.  We had the civil rights movement.  There is still a long way to go.  

Lets have a conversation nationally, at the highest levels, let's examine this issue.  Even if some don't think there is anything wrong let's look into it.  Nothing is more infuriating that mislabeling something or just dismissing it.  

[Excellen Browning]

15 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Lets have a conversation nationally, at the highest levels, let's examine this issue.  Even if some don't think there is anything wrong let's look into it.  Nothing is more infuriating that mislabeling something or just dismissing it.  

I'm sorry, but this is just hollow drivel. The "conversation" spiel has been brought up time and again over the last several decades, and every time it ended in nothing. The issue is obvious, the solution less so, but for decades now very few have even attempted to solve it, and those that did were unsuccessful. Police brutality needs to stop and the systemic racism needs to end. 

All of this should have happened with the emancipation movement in the sixties, yet we're here in 2020 with the same structural problems, a resurgent and increasingly violent racist right, and a racist piece of shit for a president.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Excellen Browning

[Tryhard]

I think Don might be giving Antifa a bit more credit than they deserve, honestly.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Tryhard

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

And this is the point i brought up earlier.

Material belongings shouldn't be equated with human lives.

The scales are waaaay different.

This is not just material belongings. These are livelihoods. How would you feel if rioters burn down your home and looters make off with all your belongings? They are just a physical objects after all. Material belongings should not be equated with human lives, but saying people's work, sweat, and blood as just material belongings is rather insulting. People worked their ass off starting a business and take large financial risks.

The scales being different still does not mean it is okay, acceptable, nor tolerable.

[Lewyn]

43 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

I'm sorry, but this is just hollow drivel. The "conversation" spiel has been brought up time and again over the last several decades, and every time it ended in nothing. The issue is obvious, the solution less so, but for decades now very few have even attempted to solve it, and those that did were unsuccessful. Police brutality needs to stop and the systemic racism needs to end. 

All of this should have happened with the emancipation movement in the sixties, yet we're here in 2020 with the same structural problems, a resurgent and increasingly violent racist right, and a racist piece of shit for a president.

Any attempt to solve it will be unsuccessful unless most people at least recognize there is a real issue/problem.  You say it is obvious, but a large chunk of the country will say differently.  So first is finding a way to persuade and inform these ignorant or bigoted people, then if most people are convinced there is an issue much greater chance that government and such can act and do something.  

Looting has spread to many suburbs, wealthy ones too.  

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Here's what actually matters and what everyone should agree on. Please, if you live in the US, especially in the city, please be careful and stay safe. Riots are even happening where I live and I live in a really rural area. Please, everyone stay safe.

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

1 minute ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Here's what actually matters and what everyone should agree on. Please, if you live in the US, especially in the city, please be careful and stay safe. Riots are even happening where I live and I live in a really rural area. Please, everyone stay safe.

I second this. I try to stay out of politics online, but I agree with everyone staying safe. I'm a good deal away from the city and it's getting dicey out here too. Everyone keep well.

[Lord Raven]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

This is not just material belongings. These are livelihoods. How would you feel if rioters burn down your home and looters make off with all your belongings? They are just a physical objects after all. Material belongings should not be equated with human lives, but saying people's work, sweat, and blood as just material belongings is rather insulting. People worked their ass off starting a business and take large financial risks.

The scales being different still does not mean it is okay, acceptable, nor tolerable.

Most businesses have insurance.

You're also missing the forest for hte trees. Any sort of protest that the police escalate would have bad faith actors doing this. There's people who think they're making a point, but for the most part many of them have been unrelated.

Police precincts, targets, etc. They can pick themselves up. Target itself didn't give a shit and paid its employees for the job they lost.

It's not cut and dry and the vast majority of the violence is either police to civilians or civilians as a counter to police. You're letting perfection get in the way of the genuine progress that people have made; way way way more people are waking up more and more and more, seeing the police attack from the streets. It's all known shit to us, but it's still avoided to many people.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

Most businesses have insurance.

You're also missing the forest for hte trees. Any sort of protest that the police escalate would have bad faith actors doing this. There's people who think they're making a point, but for the most part many of them have been unrelated.

Police precincts, targets, etc. They can pick themselves up. Target itself didn't give a shit and paid its employees for the job they lost.

It's not cut and dry and the vast majority of the violence is either police to civilians or civilians as a counter to police. You're letting perfection get in the way of the genuine progress that people have made; way way way more people are waking up more and more and more, seeing the police attack from the streets. It's all known shit to us, but it's still avoided to many people.

Insurance helps, but it does not cover everything. I know most protests are peaceful, I am not concerned about them.

What I am concerned about are rioters and looters. I do not give a damn if those rioters and looters are civilians or police. If they are causing property damage and ruining someone's livelihoods, they should be charged under the full extent of the law. With a pandemic going on and police brutality being exposed, my sympathy is wearing thin and I see no reason to give any justification or sympathy to these criminals who are taking advantage of the situation.

If someone needs to put a bullet in the head of a rioter or looter in self defense, then by all means they should do that and not let those criminals take away their livelihoods. Whether the looter is a protestor or police makes no difference to me. A looter is a looter and they are all scum to me.

[Lewyn]

The coward in chief was hiding in a white house bunker.  Thought he was a tough guy?  Well a leader would make a speech by now about uniting the country, say something.  However that requires a heart, not being a sociopath with no morals. 

[Lord Raven]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

What I am concerned about are rioters and looters. I do not give a damn if those rioters and looters are civilians or police. If they are causing property damage and ruining someone's livelihoods, they should be charged under the full extent of the law. With a pandemic going on and police brutality being exposed, my sympathy is wearing thin and I see no reason to give any justification or sympathy to these criminals who are taking advantage of the situation.

If someone needs to put a bullet in the head of a rioter or looter in self defense, then by all means they should do that and not let those criminals take away their livelihoods. Whether the looter is a protestor or police makes no difference to me. A looter is a looter and they are all scum to me.

They tagged along to co-opt it. More and more is coming out showing that the looters are co-opting the movement to do their own shit. Seattle's Mayor called them all out.

24 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

The coward in chief was hiding in a white house bunker.  Thought he was a tough guy?  Well a leader would make a speech by now about uniting the country, say something.  However that requires a heart, not being a sociopath with no morals. 

Everyone would rather he not.

[eclipse]

I like how Trump thinks this is all Antifa's fault, without touching on the rumors that there's some bad actors among the alt-right.