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311 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you vote a third party?

    • Yes
      99
    • No
      129
    • Maybe
      83
  2. 2. Are you content with the results of the election?

    • Yes
      57
    • No
      133
    • Indifferent
      50


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4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Do you guys think widespread COVID19 denial deserves a platform?

I know exactly what I want out of this, but it's not enforceable, nor do I think my opinion on the matter is fit for a public forum.

As for racism, I want to attack the root of it, not bury it and hope that it goes away.

EDIT:

1 minute ago, Armchair General said:

How can one ignore a global pandemic that had already killed thousands of people?

Mental gymnastics.  Lots of it.  My state has protestors who want to open back up.

Edited by eclipse

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13 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work

Preliminary research on reddit has shown this as well. I'm going with the research here, and the fact that Germany has literally done it for 75 years without a measurable Nazi movement.

Richard Spencer is literally the kind of person to deplatform on social media. Arguing with someone who is entrenched is a waste, because the people surrounding will often be entrenched already. But these places don't do their damage because they debate with Richard Spencer, these places do their damage because they apply fascist tactics and only allow the vulnerable in.

To preserve the vulnerable and allow them to learn on their own -- you, as a society, remove an easily accessible platform rather than try to argue with the opposition in public. Because the opposition will never allow you to be in an open environment full of impressionable people without being on their own terms.

If you give them a platform, you can let them act like victims without them actually being victims. If you deplatform them, their victimhood isn't widespread.

If so, we are relying on social media corporations in order to regulate.

Frankly, I don't want to rely on them. There have been many instances of anti-Israel, communist, marxist accounts getting banned by Twitter and Facebook. Youtube just defunds political content in general.

Just because they state, 'we need to deal with "the other extreme" '.

These companies are not the lefts friends and will never be reliable.

Edited by Tryhard

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I know exactly what I want out of this, but it's not enforceable, nor do I think my opinion on the matter is fit for a public forum.

As for racism, I want to attack the root of it, not bury it and hope that it goes away.

Then say it. You're not contributing by saying any of this. Seriously, how are you a mod? You're not even following the spirit of the sticky by not stating your opinion, all you do is preach to avoid addressing arguments, especially since I'm calling out this forum for being complicit in not giving a shit about the islamophobia from four years ago nor did they give a shit when Life Admiral repeatedly advocated genocide. Did you ban him for tax evasion or something?

4 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

If so, we are relying on social media corporations in order to regulate.

Frankly, I don't want to rely on them. There have been many instances of anti-Israel, communist, marxist accounts getting banned by Twitter and Facebook.

Just because they state, 'we need to deal with "the other extreme" '.

These companies are not the lefts friends and will never be reliable.

Deplatforming works. You're just saying "I don't want this" in the face of proof, at this point.

I'm not a leftist, and I don't make friends with companies. I pressure companies to do the right thing.

Edited by Lord Raven

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Mental gymnastics.  Lots of it.  My state has protestors who want to open back up.

I don't really blame them. Hardly anyone is hiring in my neck of the woods and shopping in general is a bit of an inconvenience

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Just now, Lord Raven said:

Then say it. You're not contributing by saying any of this. Seriously, how are you a mod? You're not even following the spirit of the sticky by not stating your opinion.

Why do you think I brought up religion?  I think both are going to have to be addressed at the same time, because IMO it's a very sick intermingling of the two that's the cause of a lot of our current issues.

If anything I want the racists to be loud, and stick their real names next to their sentiments.  That way, I know who to avoid.

1 minute ago, Armchair General said:

I don't really blame them. Hardly anyone is hiring in my neck of the woods and shopping in general is a bit of an inconvenience

Here's the thing about Hawaii - we're surrounded by the sea.  We only have so much space to deal with, and if we wind up with a situation like NYC, we'd have to triage simply because we don't have the room to deal with it all (never mind what we're going to do with the corpses).  That, along with the general culture, is why our population was generally in favor of keeping things locked down.  Inconvenient?  Yes.  Making sure we don't accidentally kill our elders?  More important.

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20 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Well, you can't just separate Christianity from America. I mean, the country was founded by them, laws were based off it (anti-abortian laws and gambling regulations in Oklahoma if you want an example) and it's essentially one of the dominant (if not divisive) religions in the country

This is christian nationalist narrative and complete horseshit.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

If anything I want the racists to be loud, and stick their real names next to their sentiments.  That way, I know who to avoid.

That's why I said the government shouldn't prosecute, so they have every ability to be out and proud. Or they can just keep to themselves and learn through osmosis.

People don't learn by even seeing a debate. They learn through experience and exposure to other races. Exposure to white nationalists is what we want companies to limit.

I also thought you were referring to COVID stuff. Which I'm not sure anyone answered.

Edited by Lord Raven

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2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

That's why I said the government shouldn't prosecute, so they have every ability to be out and proud. Or they can just keep to themselves and learn through osmosis.

People don't learn by even seeing a debate. They learn through experience and exposure to other races. Exposure to white nationalists is what we want companies to limit.

I also thought you were referring to COVID stuff. Which I'm not sure anyone answered.

That means I trust corporations to do that. . .which I don't.  I'd rather disruptive behavior be punished. . .and coincidentally, those calling for restrictions on someone based on race JUST so happen to be really disruptive.  A coincidence, really.

As for COVID. . .I have my thoughts, and I'm keeping them to myself.  I know what I want and why, but it's also very easy to misinterpret.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Why do you think I brought up religion?  I think both are going to have to be addressed at the same time, because IMO it's a very sick intermingling of the two that's the cause of a lot of our current issues.

If anything I want the racists to be loud, and stick their real names next to their sentiments.  That way, I know who to avoid.

Here's the thing about Hawaii - we're surrounded by the sea.  We only have so much space to deal with, and if we wind up with a situation like NYC, we'd have to triage simply because we don't have the room to deal with it all (never mind what we're going to do with the corpses).  That, along with the general culture, is why our population was generally in favor of keeping things locked down.  Inconvenient?  Yes.  Making sure we don't accidentally kill our elders?  More important.

No offense, but I live in South Cali and while we can't be evicted over this, we still need an income and those stimulus checks aren't enough

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Just now, Armchair General said:

No offense, but I live in South Cali and while we can't be evicted over this, we still need an income and those stimulus checks aren't enough

. . .you're going to argue with someone over Hawaii over the cost of living?

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4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

That means I trust corporations to do that. . .which I don't.  I'd rather disruptive behavior be punished. . .and coincidentally, those calling for restrictions on someone based on race JUST so happen to be really disruptive.  A coincidence, really.

As for COVID. . .I have my thoughts, and I'm keeping them to myself.  I know what I want and why, but it's also very easy to misinterpret.

It's fucking annoying that you criticize everyone's viewpoint without posting your own. You can't take the heat or directly address a question.

And you keep arguing crap that's pretty orthogonal to my point, as do the rest of you.

I trust you to moderate this forum less than you trust Twitter to moderate racism, because you refuse to communicate properly and in a straightforward manner. You're poorly keeping within the spirit of the subforum you're trying to moderate.

You'd rather disruptive behavior be punished? The hell does that mean? I'm not re-reading everything you've ever posted because you never give a straight answer, all you do is criticize criticize criticize and you guys didn't even ban someone for advocating a fucking genocide.

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3 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

Well do you still have an income then?

Just because I was smart and went into government doesn't mean that everyone else in my state is fine.

Because they are not.

EDIT:

Just now, Lord Raven said:

It's fucking annoying that you criticize everyone's viewpoint without posting your own. You can't take the heat or directly address a question.

And you keep arguing crap that's pretty orthogonal to my point, as do the rest of you.

I trust you to moderate this forum less than you trust Twitter to moderate racism, because you refuse to communicate properly and in a straightforward manner. You're poorly keeping within the spirit of the subforum you're trying to moderate.

You'd rather disruptive behavior be punished? The hell does that mean? I'm not re-reading everything you've ever posted because you never give a straight answer, all you do is criticize criticize criticize and you guys didn't even ban someone for advocating a fucking genocide.

Then let this be a lesson to you: the minute someone starts pointing out the flaws in your logic, stop and ask why.  Both at yourself and the other person.  I'd rather people learn and grow.

Edited by eclipse

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21 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Deplatforming works. You're just saying "I don't want this" in the face of proof, at this point.

I'm not a leftist, and I don't make friends with companies. I pressure companies to do the right thing.

I say this because I'm not sure Alex Jones has any trouble peddling his nonsense still. I suppose the biggest thing is that apolitical people are generally less likely to get sucked into that hole.

Really? You said at one point you were pretty much a socialist. Even more left than me. What happened?

Companies also like to ban people for being "too far-left". They do the wrong thing more than the right thing. It's not going to be reliable. Notice what they said at the end of that article you linked.

“Alex Jones is not the only person being deplatformed or who has been deranked,” Caplan said. “We need to puncture this myth that it’s only affecting far-right people. Trans rights activists, Black Lives Matter organizers, LGBTQI people have been demonetized or deranked. The reason we’re talking about far-right people is that they have coverage on Fox News and representatives in Congress holding hearings. They already have political power.”

Fuck attempting to pressure them.

Edited by Tryhard

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50 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

 

You're just sidestepping the argument to condescend. Hence, that's not a way you should talk to me, especially when this forum hired a transphobe as a mod.

I don't think any of the mods are transphobic.

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6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Really? You said at one point you were pretty much a socialist. Even more left than me. What happened?

Yeah, over four years ago. I can change, I'm a capitalist who believes in social safety nets and equity for all, as well as being highly pro-Union and allowing people to have a massive and representative say in their workplace (think Warren's 40% plan). In either case, I don't really give a shit about labels or the identity politics of politics. I refuse to call myself a leftist, right leaning, liberal, conservative, anything. Specifically so I don't get pigeonholed.

I'm also fully in favor of evidence based policy, which being a socialist is antithetical to.

6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Companies also like to ban people for being "too far-left". They do the wrong thing more than the right thing. It's not going to be reliable. Notice what they said at the end of that article you linked.

“Alex Jones is not the only person being deplatformed or who has been deranked,” Caplan said. “We need to puncture this myth that it’s only affecting far-right people. Trans rights activists, Black Lives Matter organizers, LGBTQI people have been demonetized or deranked. The reason we’re talking about far-right people is that they have coverage on Fox News and representatives in Congress holding hearings. They already have political power.”

And they took responsibility. What's the issue? I'm telling a private company what they should do, well in line with my argument that we need to place pressured on private institutions and citizens.

Deplatforming still works, and advertisers pulling out and Alex Jones being banned has limited his viewership.

6 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I don't think any of the mods are transphobic.

One is, or was. I've been talking about him. He knows who he is.

Quote

Then let this be a lesson to you: the minute someone starts pointing out the flaws in your logic, stop and ask why.  Both at yourself and the other person.  I'd rather people learn and grow.

Easy for someone to say who's never had a stance. Let this be a lesson to you; if your logic is crappy, I'll counter it passionately, and press you to have a stance and address other arguments repeatedly since you're clearly ignoring and sidestepping an argument to preach condescending crap like this.

Edited by Lord Raven

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2 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Easy for someone to say who's never had a stance. Let this be a lesson to you; if your logic is crappy, I'll counter it passionately, and press you to have a stance and address other arguments repeatedly since you're clearly ignoring and sidestepping an argument to preach condescending crap like this.

I assume the other person I'm arguing with will stop and ask, rather than run his mouth.

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Just now, eclipse said:

I assume the other person I'm arguing with will stop and ask, rather than run his mouth.

I did ask. Here's the response I got.

32 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I know exactly what I want out of this, but it's not enforceable, nor do I think my opinion on the matter is fit for a public forum.

As for racism, I want to attack the root of it, not bury it and hope that it goes away.

This didn't address a single argument I brought up, this didn't answer a single question I asked. I even asked you what you think I'm arguing, and you said nothing.

Don't give me that crap.

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Just now, Lord Raven said:

I did ask. Here's the response I got.

This didn't address a single argument I brought up, this didn't answer a single question I asked. I even asked you what you think I'm arguing, and you said nothing.

Don't give me that crap.

That was specifically for the COVID situation.  Believe it or not, knowing when your opinion is fit for public discourse is a Good Thing, and should be encouraged.  See, if the racists you so hate would do the same, the companies wouldn't have to do it for them.

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Just now, eclipse said:

That was specifically for the COVID situation.  Believe it or not, knowing when your opinion is fit for public discourse is a Good Thing, and should be encouraged.  See, if the racists you so hate would do the same, the companies wouldn't have to do it for them.

You didn't state your viewpoint when I asked, but you're telling me I should stop and ask instead of running my mouth.

Now, I'm a huge proponent of taking what you dish. You keep criticizing my viewpoint without stating any of your own. I defend my viewpoint and you attack my character (I assume this is why I'm not suspended, because you know you're attacking my character and being dismissive instead of addressing arguments). But the fact that you're unable to word your viewpoint for public consumption is not an indictment on me, because it's very clear I've stopped and asked.

I don't appreciate the swipes and I don't appreciate the fact that the staff isn't acknowledging the fact that they allowed a literal genocide advocate on the forum for four years. Or literal segregationists.

Having that said, have you seen the country you're living in? Racists not shutting the fuck up is the issue and being vindicated within their own echo chambers is making it far worse.

The fact that I brought up proof and continue to be mocked by you is insanity. I think both of us, INCLUDING YOU eclipse, need to step away and reflect. There's no fucking reason I should be the only one reflecting here when you're unwilling to entertain deplatforming, and you're projecting when you say I'm running my mouth. You just reply and say whatever you want and make it sound like an argument when it's not, it's just discussion stifling.

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Just now, Lord Raven said:

You didn't state your viewpoint when I asked, but you're telling me I should stop and ask instead of running my mouth.

Now, I'm a huge proponent of taking what you dish. You keep criticizing my viewpoint without stating any of your own. I defend my viewpoint and you attack my character (I assume this is why I'm not suspended, because you know you're attacking my character and being dismissive instead of addressing arguments). But the fact that you're unable to word your viewpoint for public consumption is not an indictment on me, because it's very clear I've stopped and asked.

I don't appreciate the swipes and I don't appreciate the fact that the staff isn't acknowledging the fact that they allowed a literal genocide advocate on the forum for four years. Or literal segregationists.

Having that said, have you seen the country you're living in? Racists not shutting the fuck up is the issue and being vindicated within their own echo chambers is making it far worse.

The fact that I brought up proof and continue to be mocked by you is insanity. I think both of us, INCLUDING YOU eclipse, need to step away and reflect. There's no fucking reason I should be the only one reflecting here when you're unwilling to entertain deplatforming, and you're projecting when you say I'm running my mouth. You just reply and say whatever you want and make it sound like an argument when it's not, it's just discussion stifling.

The fact that you take it as mockery is insanity.  Because it wasn't meant to be.  It was pointing out the flaw in the deplatforming logic, which IMO is one that you still haven't addressed.  Instead, you're the one making it about race, and why it's A Good Thing, without addressing how it can be used against your views (maybe not now, but twenty years down the line).  It's dangerous to like something just because it happens to fit your agenda, and I think that's the point that you're pushing.

Meanwhile, I think fighting racism doesn't mean that merely shutting them up will help.  It's treating a symptom, not the cause.  I'm more interested in getting rid of it entirely, which means that you'll have to give people room to fuck up, then grow - and telling them that they aren't allowed to speak their mind isn't how to change minds for the better.  I think you'd be rightfully pissed if I silenced people just because I disagreed with them.

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36 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The fact that you take it as mockery is insanity.  Because it wasn't meant to be.  It was pointing out the flaw in the deplatforming logic, which IMO is one that you still haven't addressed.  Instead, you're the one making it about race, and why it's A Good Thing, without addressing how it can be used against your views (maybe not now, but twenty years down the line).  It's dangerous to like something just because it happens to fit your agenda, and I think that's the point that you're pushing.

I talked about this.

I talked about how it's different.

I talked about all of this and talked about it within a moral framework.

Being anti-racism isn't an agenda. Stop calling it an agenda. Are you in favor of Facebook deplatforming large voices who deny COVID? If so, why? If not, then why are you against deplatforming racists then, since racism is just as big an issue as COVID and is heavily intertwined with it?

Bigotry is a public safety issue. It's not an opinion. Black people are getting lynched, transpeople are getting hated and sexually assault, and racism/transphobia is played upon for bad parties to seize power.

36 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Meanwhile, I think fighting racism doesn't mean that merely shutting them up will help.  It's treating a symptom, not the cause.  I'm more interested in getting rid of it entirely, which means that you'll have to give people room to fuck up, then grow - and telling them that they aren't allowed to speak their mind isn't how to change minds for the better.

No, it's a factor and a thing that is proven to work. It's not the only thing.

Deplatforming racists is not deplatforming someone who says racist shit. It's preventing public figures and companies who make racist comments from having an elevated platform so we don't have president Trump. It's a public safety issue, not a fucking opinion.

But let's be honest, you guys didn't ban Life when he advocated genocide, and you all knew how much of an obstinate asshole he was and how little room he had to grow. I'm not advocating to punch racists, I'm not advocating to ban someone from Facebook for innocuous racism, I'm saying to hold public figures accountable by deplatforming them.

36 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I think you'd be rightfully pissed if I silenced people just because I disagreed with them.

You already try to by telling me to get older, not addressing arguments, not directly answering questions, not allowing discussion to happen and trying to distract. You can do better, but you're dealing with someone who is willing to get deep into the pit and not some average user. You should be aware of this by now. I don't appreciate a comment like this 

58 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I assume the other person I'm arguing with will stop and ask, rather than run his mouth.

Labeling my opinion and actually addressing arguments as running my mouth. If you don't view this as mocking someone or as a bad faith comment, then you shouldn't reply to me. I'm not going to hold back when I've seen hundreds of subreddits and Twitter do a better job addressing the protests than Serenes forest.

Seriously, a guy didn't get perma banned for advocating genocide and for being openly transphobic 4-5 years back, you just let him come back and call out political correctness like PC is relevant to tolerance.

I'm also being stuck with a tolerance of intolerance fallacy by a lot of people in this thread, and I assume none of you care to read that argument either.

 

EDIT: and ultimately, it's their business what they do or don't wanna give a platform. They're a private company. They silenced previous protests and viewpoints, Facebook continues to do it themselves, so I continuously call Zuckerberg a pedophile on Facebook until they disallow me. To call them an ally is a stretch, but to call anti-racism a basic moral obligation is not.

Deplatforming is free speech, as is platforming. I really don't get what you're arguing. I'm going to argue it's immoral if they do deplatform a Muslim person solely for being Muslim, and I will argue against intolerance. Social media companies need to atone for the tolerance of hate speech that has allowed racism to spread, and I've linked an article that shows that it's working!

Try hard mentioned movements that were deplatformed..... That managed to come back with a vengeance to pressure these companies with protests. It's part of our moral obligation as citizens too, not just companies. You guys are exceedingly simplifying my argument instead of speaking in good faith.

Edited by Lord Raven

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Guess which religion is funding all the -isms you so hate?  That's what I mean by getting to the root of the problem.

As for deplatforming the big guys, that's still a sticky issue.  I'm all for kicking Alex Jones since he was telling his followers to harass grieving parents (which IMO falls under inciting violence).  I'm also for keeping Trump's tweets around and corrected, because he's a goddamn embarrassment, and we need to learn from it.  What I'm not for is silencing individuals solely for their views - let them be a pain in the ass first, then kick them for ToS violations.  Furthermore, it doesn't take into account stuff like leadership changes - so if one president is a homophobic ass and another isn't, deplatforming the ass means that the new one may not be able to turn the brand around.

As for various mod decisions, you're speaking with no context.  I have more of it, and know why things panned out the way they did, plus a bunch of other shit that I'm not going to make public.  There are some things that happened in back that would make your hair stand on end.

Lastly, when I tell you that you'll understand when you're older, I mean it.  Think of how much your views have changed over time.  Think of how much more they'll change as you live your life.

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