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Basically, to the majority of the western world america isn't deciding between a lefty and a right prez, but between moderate right and extreme right prez.

The American spectrum is so skewed to the right, it's not even funny.

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6 minutes ago, ping said:

Fun Fact: In Germany, mandatory health and accident insurance were introduced by Otto von Bismarck (not a socialist, in case anyone is wondering).

Wasn't that kinda a "I'll beat those lefties to the punch to steal the inoffensive-to-conservatism aspect of their platform from them"? And IIRC, it was a conservative Prime Minister of Britain who chose to greatly expand the electorate in the mid-late 1800s, on the grounds the masses would vote conservative more often than not.

And from what I read once, the Netherlands established it's current universal healthcare system under a conservative government, with it being more private-oriented as a result or something.

(I did not catch your red-lettered edit.)

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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22 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

So, what's this talk about Biden turning America into a socialist country? Because my stepdad had an conversation with me about it, saying that under him; companies will take their jobs to China, Mexican immigration rates (and the problems that comes with it) will increase, ICE will be disbanded...

I'm tuning him out because I don't really watch the news and I'm finding this to be a little bit hard to believe. But it's an recurring topic with him and he's too dense to notice that I'm sitting there, not giving much of an fuck.

Republicans are pretty darn socialist on the military and police, if not outright full on hardcore communist for those industries. Although to be fair, the vast majority of people on Earth support nationalizing most of the security industry.

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1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Wasn't that kinda a "I'll beat those lefties to the punch to steal the inoffensive-to-conservatism aspect of their platform from them"? And IIRC, it was a conservative Prime Minister of Britain who chose to greatly expand the electorate in the mid-late 1800s, on the grounds the masses would vote conservative more often than not.

Yep, precisely - I've edited that in already right after hitting "Submit". It's still a nice little story about how concepts that are absolute pariah for the GOP today have been "inoffensive to conservatism" then, as you put it.

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Tell your stepdad to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh/Fox News/Facebook

its all literally full tilt propaganda. Right wing media is a joke.

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5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Tell your stepdad to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh/Fox News/Facebook

its all literally full tilt propaganda. Right wing media is a joke.

I would, but he's essentially an idiot, at times. I would rather wait to see what wouldn't happen if Biden gets elected before I rub it in.

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26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And from what I read once, the Netherlands established it's current universal healthcare system under a conservative government, with it being more private-oriented as a result or something.

The current dutch health insurance system is a failure and I wouldn't recommend it. It's a weird hybrid public-private partnership thing in which not-for-profit private companies offer insurance, and healthcare providers like doctor's practices and hospitals operate as private companies and negotiatie prices and contracts with the insurance providers. There's a bunch of problems with this however. The first is that the insurers aren't operating as not-for-profits, but as normal companies. The price of insurance has only gone up these last ~15 years, while healthcare costs overall have gone down. Secondly, the insurers act a bit like a cartel. There's a handful of insurers and lots of smaller healthcare providers. There's supposed to be government oversight but that's been lax. Insurers set the price, providers are forced to try to make things work. This has lead to several hospitals going bankrupt over the last decade or so, and longer waiting lists, especially in mental healthcare, where you could be waiting for the better part of a year for treatment, depending on where you live.

EDIT: the first nationalized social healthcare the Netherlands got was set up by the German occupier in 1941, just as a fun little tidbit.

26 minutes ago, XRay said:

Republicans are pretty darn socialist on the military and police, if not outright full on hardcore communist for those industries. Although to be fair, the vast majority of people on Earth support nationalizing most of the security industry.

being for a state monopoly on violence has exactly zero to do with being socialist or not.

Edited by Excellen Browning

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10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Tell your stepdad to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh/Fox News/Facebook

its all literally full tilt propaganda. Right wing media is a joke.

Speaking of jokes, it’s sad, but also kind of funny watching Trump’s meltdown get flagged by Twitter and see his supporters go apeshit thinking Twitter is revoking Trump’s first amendment. I really look forward to such stupidity being stamped out, or at least, hopefully less visible.

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Um... they just elected a bunch of qanon congressmen. That shit isn’t being stamped out soon or being less visible.

I really, really wish 2016 went differently.

Edited by Crysta

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3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Um... they just elected a bunch of qanon congressmen. That shit isn’t being stamped out soon or being less visible.

I really, really wish 2016 went differently.

The whole Q thing becomes a lot less relevant when it's about Trump exposing a bunch of supposedly liberal deep state pedophiles when Trump isn't around anymore.

Then again there was rumours before the election that Trump would go and start a TrumpTV channel if he lost.

Edited by Tryhard

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2 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The whole Q thing becomes a lot less relevant when it's about Trump exposing a bunch of supposedly liberal deep state pedophiles when Trump isn't around anymore.

Well, there have been reports of Q stuff popping up in Europe. It's still pretty fringe there, but basically every country in Europe loves making fun of Trump. That leads me, personally, to believe that it's gonna stay around in the US a fair bit. 

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4 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The whole Q thing becomes a lot less relevant when it's about Trump exposing a bunch of supposedly liberal deep state pedophiles when Trump isn't around anymore.

Then again there was rumours before the election that Trump would go and start a TrumpTV channel if he lost.

They’ve been continually lied to and continually wrong and it’s more popular than ever. Trump specifically isn’t necessary: they just need a Trump. The Right now sees them as a viable voting bloc and will angle into it to maintain power.

We’re underestimating the propensity for self-delusion here.

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10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

They’ve been continually lied to and continually wrong and it’s more popular than ever. Trump specifically isn’t necessary: they just need a Trump. The Right now sees them as a viable voting bloc and will angle into it to maintain power.

We’re underestimating the propensity for self-delusion here.

I mean yeah, that's correct. But if that's the case there's literally nothing you can do if people willingly believe propaganda even when it's absurd.

Kinda makes me wonder if those types will unite with your traditional Republican groups going forward. Somehow I don't think the Trumper types would really be up for a Ted Cruz or something like that.

Edited by Tryhard

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20 minutes ago, Spara said:

Well, there have been reports of Q stuff popping up in Europe. It's still pretty fringe there, but basically every country in Europe loves making fun of Trump. That leads me, personally, to believe that it's gonna stay around in the US a fair bit. 

It may be fringe but its also out in the open. Lots of Dutch pm's had crowds following chanting they were child eaters or other gibberish. Our prime minister tended to go to work on his bike and he's not able to do that anymore due to the increased amount of lunatics. But while Qanon seems to be a big part its mostly a movement of corona deniers. 

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Cruz was a tea party candidate. He’s 100% ready for that train and they’re ready for him. He can and will be eager to play the part if it’s politically viable.

Just like he was for Trump even after he insulted his wife and implied his dad murdered JFK.

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1 hour ago, Armchair General said:

So, what's this talk about Biden turning America into a socialist country? Because my stepdad had an conversation with me about it, saying that under him; companies will take their jobs to China, Mexican immigration rates (and the problems that comes with it) will increase, ICE will be disbanded...

I'm tuning him out because I don't really watch the news and I'm finding this to be a little bit hard to believe. But it's an recurring topic with him and he's too dense to notice that I'm sitting there, not giving much of an fuck.

Does your stepdad listen to what is considered "right-wing media" like Fox News, Breitbart, Daily Wire, OANN? If so, the answer is simple...

The right just spits out the term Socialism/Socialist so frequently that in their circles the term has lost is meaning and may as well be a placeholder for "I'm a fucking sheep and so if the conservatives I listen to hate this, then I hate it too and it's socialism".

If anything, the threat of companies moving jobs to China and increased Mexican immigration rates for cheaper labor is actually more in line with Capitalism and the free market because the whole point of Capitalism is to have the country's trade and industry controlled by private owners for profit. What do you you think these private owners hope to achieve by moving jobs to other countries with the intention of cheaper labor? Socialism would be the workers owning the means of production and even under Bernie Sanders, you wouldn't see such happening with companies like Amazon lol.

This call is a perfect example of your average conservative and their understanding of Socialism and the left of the US

  

43 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

The whole Q thing becomes a lot less relevant when it's about Trump exposing a bunch of supposedly liberal deep state pedophiles when Trump isn't around anymore.

Then again there was rumours before the election that Trump would go and start a TrumpTV channel if he lost.

Which wouldn't need to be done anyway because most right-wing media is currently that and will continue to be since it makes money from the pissed off white base of the Republicans.

Amusingly, there was a report suggesting that Fox News was terrified of the idea simply because they think it'll beat them in ratings and cause their own to plummet.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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Not gonna lie, I don't think going on about the nuances of socialism will be as effective as telling Armchair that if his stepdad doesn't get off the drip soon he'll probably be ranting about Adrenochrome and Soros-funded antifa supersoldiers.

That rabbit hole has literally torn families apart.

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I'll say I've been calling this for a long time.  I've thought this ever since this piece of trash was elected.  You just have to look at his history, and it was clear that unless the rest of the GOP held him in check, he is going to seize as much power as possible and destroy our democracy.  He is still trying to through the courts get tons of votes tossed, when voting is already ended essentially disenfranchising thousands of voters.  Who the fuck does that?  Fuhrer Trump that's who.  It looks like the courts are dismissing his BS lawsuits for the most part.  However America is a fucking embarrassment that it is this close.  We need the fucking fairness doctrine back to stop the brainwashing.  It leads to people like Trump actually getting elected. It leads to zealot true believers arming themselves and going to counting places trying to stop the vote.  What is this some third world banana republic? 

Pennsylvania looks like it will be finished today, and if it goes to Biden as it looks like it will.  It's over.  Then I hope that fat idiot in the oval office concedes, the longer this goes the more he inflames tensions and spreads conspiracies that his maggots take to heart.  I am also fucking disgusted by Republican voters.  Child molester, serial killer, dictator wannabe that destroys democracy it doesn't fucking matter.  I'm pinning a ton of blame on them, in addition to right wing media and his enablers.  Trump is one man.  Hitler was one man.  Mussolini was one man. Stalin was one man.  ONE MAN can't do shit by himself.  We talk about these monstrous individuals from history, and how evil they are and ignore the political parties/elected officials that enabled and boosted these people.  We ignore the many people that supported each of these terrors.  

I am not.  I'll remember, social media will remember.  I won't forgive.  2016 it was fucking obvious, Trump used the Republican Party as a Trojan Horse.  However 2020 people who voted for him, I remember you.  You are just as responsible for all the suffering, death, division and erosion of democracy that Trump has caused.  Hopefully his reign of terror ends with defeat this election. 

Sorry had to get that off my chest.  

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13 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Not gonna lie, I don't think going on about the nuances of socialism will be as effective as telling Armchair that if his stepdad doesn't get off the drip soon he'll probably be ranting about Adrenochrome and Soros-funded antifa supersoldiers.

That rabbit hole has literally torn families apart.

Unfortunately that may be even less effective. 68 Million voted for Trump over Biden despite the lies and blunders by Trump that can easily be proven. 68 Million people may be aware that Trump is perfectly willing to just let people die and despite seeing friends and family die from it, they still believe that Biden is worse is that Trump is the way to go.

The fact that Trump GAINED votes overall compared to the 2016 election popular vote count is a sign that when trying to speak to a Trump supporter, you may not be speaking to someone willing to change their mind in response to a convincing argument, you may be speaking to someone with the mentality that they're in a war and that they must desperately defend and empower Trump to win for their survival, like a cornered animal. They know his rhetoric, they know how nasty he is and can be and even White Supremacists will call him a Zionist like the the others in DC and say he's a grifter but they will still vote for him because they want to win the war against the Left.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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When you try to engage with your folks on politics, you can feel the rift opening up between you with each word out of your mouth. But damn it at least try. These people are capable of reason. If they use facts, counter with your own facts. If they use appeals to emotion, counter with your own. It's so important to show these people we all live in the same reality no matter what our respective bubbles say.

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3 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

Appealing to reason doesn't work as well as you might think. This election is good proof of it

Pretty much. There is generalization going on here as it is wrong to say that there ALL folks who voted Trump are incapable of listening to reason. It just sucks that the Democrats are the alternative to the Republicans when the Democrats are so fucking weak.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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You will find that across the board people voted in favor of left-leaning policies but elected Republicans who will actively work against implementing these exact same policies.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't try. I'm arguing that you're using the wrong arguments.

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