General US Politics

[Crysta]

What “political consequences” do you expect to manifest when a significant portion of the population still voted for him? After he was already impeached?

Legal consequences are the only thing we’re likely to get because the law rarely cares about how popular you are. And he’s spent his whole life stealing money.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Honestly, as a Georgia voter, I'm exhausted more than anything right now. And very concerned what the next two days will bring.

18 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I'd be down for this, in light of this new scandal. What better "repudiation of Trump" could you ask for, then a second impeachment? And who on the right would defend the lame duck president enough to prevent a vote for removal? Trump's friendship is now officially worthless. Sure Congress could theoretically do "something better with their time" once they resume session this week, but unless they secure that Senate tie, I can't think of anything they would attempt that can pass.

To the bolded part, seconding @Crysta. I had hoped Trump losing would mean Republicans drifting away from him, but few have. No Republican with their eyes on 2024 want to alienate him or his (still big, still supportive, still deluded) base. Trump could die tomorrow, and Trumpism would still remain a fervent force.

In general, though, I can't see a second unsuccessful impeachment doing the Democrats any good. Especially not with literally weeks left in Trump's term, the pandemic raging, and on the heels of their failure to secure bigger Covid checks. Right now it's "wear a mask, preach civility, and tread water until Inauguration Day".

16 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

It'd perhaps prevent another bunch of extremely shitty pardons 

Honestly, the power of the pardon ought to be reined in somewhat. Give Congress the power to stop it, say with a two-thirds supermajority in both houses. That kind of power, unchecked, really doesn't belong in one person's hands.

But it could be worse, Trump could be rushing federal executions, right? ...Wait, he's doing that too.

19 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Full audio of Trump trying to get the Georgia Secretary of state to basically hand over the state to him in the election.

Brad Raffensperger has gained my respect through all of this, as one of the few Republicans whose moral compass doesn't point toward Trump, but to ideals and truth. Of course, I'm worried he'll be primaried out in 2022. Blue lining: such an outcome might give Democrats a better shot at the office.

On 12/31/2020 at 6:20 PM, eclipse said:

think conservatives with a conscience need to break from the Republican party, and make another party.  Yes, it'll split the vote, but is that worse than supporting outright hate?

A first-past-the-post, no-runoff electoral system is inherently unfriendly to more than two national parties. This would only work if Democrats bow out completely in states like Montana and Oklahoma, and Trump!Republicans in states like Massachusetts and Delaware. Right now, both parties need to cultivate a relatively big tent - ideally, bigger than the other guys'.

[Crysta]

 

9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Brad Raffensperger has gained my respect through all of this, as one of the few Republicans whose moral compass doesn't point toward Trump, but to ideals and truth. Of course, I'm worried he'll be primaried out in 2022. Blue lining: such an outcome might give Democrats a better shot at the office.

Please don't lionize the guy who spent the week threatening people who hand out water bottles to people waiting in long lines with felonies.

Just because he's one of the few willing to punch back when he's attacked doesn't make him good.

[eclipse]

42 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly, as a Georgia voter, I'm exhausted more than anything right now. And very concerned what the next two days will bring.

Hang in there, man.  I'm rooting for you!

32 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Just because he's one of the few willing to punch back when he's attacked doesn't make him good.

Celebrate what he does right.  And IMO fighting against his party is something that's worth applauding.  Yes, that's how far they've fallen.

---

Now, who wants to weigh in on this?

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by eclipse
That thing needed a spoiler tag!

[Crysta]

39 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Celebrate what he does right.  And IMO fighting against his party is something that's worth applauding.  Yes, that's how far they've fallen.

He's fighting his party out of self-preservation and little else. Certainly not out of deep love for the constitution or our republic. 

So no, I don't think I will. I'm glad it opens up more avenues to pursue legal actions against Trump... on top of the mountain of other potentially illegal things he has done, but he's not our ally and this is really the bare minimum.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Crysta

[eclipse]

19 minutes ago, Crysta said:

He's fighting his party out of self-preservation and little else. Certainly not out of deep love for the constitution or our republic. 

So no, I don't think I will. I'm glad it opens up more avenues to pursue legal actions against Trump... on top of the mountain of other potentially illegal things he has done, but he's not our ally and this is really the bare minimum.

I don't care if he's fighting because his breakfast cereal said to do so.  The fact that he has enough vertebrae to stand up to this isn't something that we SHOULD be praising in an ideal world.  But the world is hardly ideal right now.  So I'm going to take what I can get.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

I don't care if he's fighting because his breakfast cereal said to do so.  The fact that he has enough vertebrae to stand up to this isn't something that we SHOULD be praising in an ideal world.  But the world is hardly ideal right now.  So I'm going to take what I can get.

And this is how most of the enablers in Trump's orbit will probably have their reputations rehabilitated by 2022 at the latest, when they're showered with praise for throwing Trump into the fire because it no longer endangers their career prospects.

It doesn't help. Like, at all.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

And this is how most of the enablers in Trump's orbit will probably have their reputations rehabilitated by 2022 at the latest, when they're showered with praise for throwing Trump into the fire because it no longer endangers their career prospects.

It doesn't help. Like, at all.

Start small.  First we get rid of the source of the infection.  Then we go from there.  I don't think we're going to get everything in one fell swoop short of things that I think would be to the overall detriment of the country.

[Crysta]

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Start small.  First we get rid of the source of the infection.  Then we go from there.  I don't think we're going to get everything in one fell swoop short of things that I think would be to the overall detriment of the country.

Don't start microscopically small when you don't need to. No one is telling you to ignore this guy's own obvious cynical ploys to subvert democracy in his own damn state, so you can give him slack he doesn't deserve, in favor of frying Trump.

You can get rid of both.

Trump is definitely not the source of this infection.

[eclipse]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Don't start microscopically small when you don't need to. No one is telling you to ignore this guy's own obvious cynical ploys to subvert democracy in his own damn state, so you can give him slack he doesn't deserve, in favor of frying Trump.

You can get rid of both.

Trump is definitely not the source of this infection.

The popular vote says otherwise.  There's too many people that are all too willing to side with the current Republican party for whatever idiotic reason.  Right now, Trump is very much front and center on the election fraud thing, so he needs to go first and foremost.  Raffle-boy put himself in the spotlight, so scrutiny should naturally follow, once the biggest forest fire is put out.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

The popular vote says otherwise.  There's too many people that are all too willing to side with the current Republican party for whatever idiotic reason.  Right now, Trump is very much front and center on the election fraud thing, so he needs to go first and foremost.  Raffle-boy put himself in the spotlight, so scrutiny should naturally follow, once the biggest forest fire is put out.

He is gone in two weeks.

This guy will still be here.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

He is gone in two weeks.

This guy will still be here.

Assuming all goes well, Trump will be out of office, but not out of the public eye.  The other guy is going to draw ire from those who felt that Trump should've won, which in turn should bring up some dirt.

[Crysta]

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Assuming all goes well, Trump will be out of office, but not out of the public eye.  The other guy is going to draw ire from those who felt that Trump should've won, which in turn should bring up some dirt.

I just brought up the dirt. You don't need to go mining for it: it's not like he's bothered to make a great effort to hide it.

Trump just took advantage of the rot that was already there, and has been there for a long time. He could drop dead tomorrow and the Republican party would still remain corrupt af, and it's because of politicians like 'the other guy'.

I really don't think not complimenting him is too tough an ask.

 

[eclipse]

Just now, Crysta said:

I just brought up the dirt. You don't need to go mining for it: it's not like he's bothered to make a great effort to hide it.

Trump just took advantage of the rot that was already there, and has been there for a long time. He could drop dead tomorrow and the Republican party would still remain corrupt af, and it's because of politicians like 'the other guy'.

I really don't think not complimenting him is too tough an ask.

Lovely.  But given your general political stance, I don't think it's particularly helpful.  There's a time and place for "both sides".  This isn't it.

I'm going to call out what he does right, and finally finding his morality is that.  And when the time is right, I'll call out the wrong, too.  I don't expect anyone who's affiliates with the Republican party at this point to be spotless.  That's too unrealistic IMO.

[Crysta]

How is that "both sides"? He was literally on the same side as Trump before the guy started going after him.

It's not one or two muddy spots: he is marginally cleaner looking than Trump and he'll be far, far more difficult to excise because he's not cartoonishly stupid or incompetent.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Please don't lionize the guy who spent the week threatening people who hand out water bottles to people waiting in long lines with felonies.

Just because he's one of the few willing to punch back when he's attacked doesn't make him good.

That much, I will admit, sounds scummy - especially if it were enforced overly broadly. Merely handing out water bottles to waiting voters shouldn't be a crime. If it were only enforced against those who were inappropriately attempting to sway voters, though, I think that'd be a reasonable standard. Not saying this has happened, just that it's a conceivable scenario.

Still, even beyond pushing back against Trump's false claims, I'm happy with how wide voting options there are here (early, Saturday, absentee-mail, absentee-ballot-box, and in-person). And the last election here was a procedural improvement from the June primary. That said, I'll keep an eye on the other stuff he does. The article about the attempted purge in Muscogee and Ben Hill Counties, I'm not a fan of his rhetoric, or of the attempt in general. He's bad in normal Republican respects, not weird Trumpian post-truth ways.

Also, if his number-one interest was keeping his job, he shoulda rigged this thing from the start. What's twelve thousand votes between friends, after all?

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Hang in there, man.  I'm rooting for you!

Thanks. Hope it won't take a week to learn the results this time, but...

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Now, who wants to weigh in on this?

Would love to see his office do this, but there's no realistic chance. It's political suicide to go after the president of your own party in such a manner. And the fact that the Secretary of State is too close to the incident at hand. Maybe the Attorney General could do something - but, again, politics.

[Crysta]

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

He's bad in normal Republican respects, not weird Trumpian post-truth ways.

Yes.

The problem is that Republicans are accepted as the anti-democratic party and that's just how it is. This is acceptable because it isn't the loud, vulgar Trumpian corruption but the quiet, softer corruption.

I legitimately think this mentality is a bigger long term threat than Trump, and it certainly helped paved the way for him.

[Lewyn]

So Trump called out Pence in his speech today.  Saying Pence is a great guy and I like him a lot, if he doesn't come through I won't like him quite as much.  So essentially pressuring Pence and whatever future political aspirations he has.  

2 weeks til Trump is gone but that isn't true.  It is 2 weeks til he is out of office, but he'll still be the biggest voice in the GOP and be able to hold much of it under his thumb.  You see if he really was insignificant in 2 weeks, other Republicans and even Pence could tell him to go fuck himself.  They wouldn't have to bow down and support his crazy conspiracy theories. 

Get a load of Marjorie Green, that is the crappy mentally deranged loons that we'll get more of with Trump's control of the party.  Sorry but as much as I have qualms with Mitt Romney and the 'establishment' Republicans, they are nowhere near as dangerous and undemocratic as Trump and the Tea Party.  It isn't even close.  

 

[Crysta]

All the "establishment" Republicans are abetting him. There's a few who have stopped just short of signing off on this latest stunt, when he's two weeks away from being out.

I'm fine with imperfect allies. The "establishment" Republicans are not them. You don't need to welcome them with open arms because they're marginally better than Trump. The rot is much more institutional than him, and they have little interest in changing what has been working in their favor for decades now.

EDIT: This seriously reminds me of how popular Avenatti was with the left because he routinely shit on Trump until it turned out he was scamming his client and was just as much of a thin-skinned, lawsuit-threatening-because-you-hurt-my-fee-fees idiot as he was

Edited January 5, 2021 by Crysta

[Shoblongoo]

15 hours ago, eclipse said:

Now, who wants to weigh in on this?

(1)   Its conceptually very similar to what he did in the Ukraine call that he was impeached for.  (smh again @ Susan "I think hes learned his lesson" Collins)

(2)   The only thing he learned from impeachment was that Republicans would let him get away with it

(3)    Its going to be a lot harder to play it off as "I was just joking" or "I was taken out of context by a disgruntled employee" with the full audio and transcript released to the public.

(4)   If he's charged after he leaves office its going to be a real judicial trial this time--not a dog-and-pony show in the Senate. Mitch McConnell isn't getting him off the hook this time.

[eclipse]

14 hours ago, Crysta said:

How is that "both sides"? He was literally on the same side as Trump before the guy started going after him.

It's not one or two muddy spots: he is marginally cleaner looking than Trump and he'll be far, far more difficult to excise because he's not cartoonishly stupid or incompetent.

Because he miraculously has his head out of his ass at the moment.  If someone's after your enemy, don't ambush them in the middle of that operation.  That's. . .kinda basic combat rules.  And we ARE a FE forum first and foremost!  When he tries to cash in the inevitable aftermath, then you bring it up.

46 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

(1)   Its conceptually very similar to what he did in the Ukraine call that he was impeached for.  (smh again @ Susan "I think hes learned his lesson" Collins)

(2)   The only thing he learned from impeachment was that Republicans would let him get away with it

(3)    Its going to be a lot harder to play it off as "I was just joking" or "I was taken out of context by a disgruntled employee" with the full audio and transcript released to the public.

(4)   If he's charged after he leaves office its going to be a real judicial trial this time--not a dog-and-pony show in the Senate. Mitch McConnell isn't getting him off the hook this time.

If I read that right, wouldn't that be state-level as opposed to federal?  Or did I mess something up?

[Shoblongoo]

59 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If I read that right, wouldn't that be state-level as opposed to federal?  Or did I mess something up?

It could be either honestly--that phone call was very likely a criminal violation of both state and federal law.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Shoblongoo

[eclipse]

Just now, Shoblongoo said:

It could be either honestly--that phone call was very likely a criminal violation of both state and federal law.

 

The law cited in the letter looks like it's referring to Georgia state law.  That's why I'm inclined to think that it will be under Georgia law, something which Trump can't magically wave away.

[Excellen Browning]

Legaleagle in his latest video says it could violate both GA and federal law, but also that for prosecution they'd need to prove intent for all of the possible offenses. And proving intent is a crapshoot.

[Lewyn]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/us/politics/pennsylvania-gop-refuses-to-seat-democratic-lawmaker-in-state-legislature.html

Fucking Trump is to blame for this shit.  This is why I said this wing of the GOP has to be vaporized out of existence.

Also this is why I said Dems have no backbone.  Those asshats who signed on to the Texas attempt to overthrow election, Pelosi should refuse to seat them.