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Shutting down the moment your argument/beliefs are challenged really isn't a unique thing.

When someone does that I am completely okay with just letting them retreat and leaving them be if they don't want any part in the conversation any more. Unfortunately that is rarely the case: they usually persist.

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8 minutes ago, Clear World said:

I don't think any one conversation will ever make them see the light, particular online, but I do believe that when a person attempts to consider the other side and is met with open contempt, and being outright called out for it, it does cause them to dig deeper into it and maybe even retreat further behind it. For all we know, Dragoncat could've been someone rather young.

Sadly, I kind of just wanted to have a conversation with the person. But you're probably right, this is not the place or time for such a conversation. Dragoncat did admit they would leave if pushed too hard.

 

1. DragonCat posted her age.  Hardly young, by this forum's standards.
2. It's extremely poor judgment to post something like that after the events of yesterday, where emotions were through the roof.
3. It's also bad judgement to jump blindly into a topic like this without doing research first.  I don't go on right-wing forums because their beliefs are counter to mine, and I doubt I'm going to get anything productive from posting there.  Probably just a headache.

You are free to send her a PM, and chat that way.

EDIT: You (and anyone else interested in an honest discussion) are also free to PM me, as well.  Can't guarantee that I'll respond immediately, though~!

Edited by eclipse

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6 minutes ago, Clear World said:

For all we know, Dragoncat could've been someone rather young.

She is 29 years old. She mentioned that in this thread earlier and I've already known that she's 29. That's not young, and based on my own experiences of being old is usually past the age of when your opinions change unless something catastrophic happens in your life.

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Holy shit. We can see that type of stuff here... assuming they wrote it.

Nevermind. I am being stupid on this forum. Now this makes sense you keep referring to her as a she. I kept wondering that, but was always just way too afraid to ask.

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For what it is worth, CEOs and business leaders are thinking about pressuring Republican lawmakers to act to remove Trump. However, I do not think there is enough time for them to really pressure Republicans to do anything since Trump only has about two weeks left. Elections are also over, and withholding money now is not really going to do anything in the short term. Long term wise, right wing businesses for sure as hell are not going to seriously abandon these Republican politicians who supported Trump.

The storming of the Capitol by terrorists may be shocking to most people, but it is not actually affecting the market in any real way at least right now. I think if they managed to blow something up and/or had elected officials actually killed, then that would seriously rile up the market like 9/11 did, but even back then, the market quickly rebounded after a few days like nothing ever happened. I think for businesses to disavow Republicans, Republicans actually have to do something economically damaging, rather than politically damaging.

Edited by XRay

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I admit when I saw "both sides" come up in her post, I immediately decided "I'm not touching this" because those two words have solicited some harsh takes from me for several years. It's like hearing a slur. Both sides-ism is a blight on political discourse, and news media especially, because it's people attempting to assert an objectively neutral position on a subject by calling the side who isn't trying to take away rights and livelihoods as bad as the side that explicitly does. Using the Both Sides framework on this week of all weeks is about as blatantly insensitive as using the BLM protests of the past summer to rant about Disney Movies. Not to put too fine a point about which two 29 year old women we're talking about.

I think civil discourse on politics is possible, I just never presume it to be when speaking over the internet with other usernames. I'll chat politics with friends and family when I've got an idea of what kind of life they led that may inform their perspective. But strangers are a crapshoot. There's no way we could ever talk about precisely the same thing. Even if we agree, it's only like we're agreeing past each other, not with each other. The best we can do is propagate our own bubble of dialogues we all seem to find acceptable. Real life strangers are even worse. spoilered because this went long

Spoiler

I have the unfortunate honor of looking like the mugshot for every hate crime you've read about in the last ten years. I was once approached by a fellow white college student with decidedly conservative takes on our class' subject matter. He approached me, probably because he assumed a fellow white would appreciate his objections to our 'affirmative action female professor' or the kid who has a pretty clear speech impediment on top of maybe some mental or social impediment I never cared to investigate. In real life, I love talking to people, and am virtually never offended by casual racism or sexism since that was the environment I grew up in. Instead of telling this jackass to go away, I figured what the hell, let's get an idea of what a conservative my age thinks like in 2018. I asked him about his life. He's an army vet who joined the armed services for the same reason literally every other veteran I've talked to ever did - to get away from their parents/hometown, rather than grabbing a dead end job. He spouted his opinions about guns and liberal education, never noticing that at no point did I agree with him in any verbal or non verbal way. When I decided to let it slip that I'm not a conservative, his entire demeanor shifted. Immediately assuming that the things he said had offended me, and telling me that he won't apologize. We had a very antagonistic discussion about gun control. He kept repeating that if I just fired a gun, I "wouldn't be so afraid of them". I told him I have in fact fired several guns with my dad, and still don't think they're fun or see a reason to own one. He informed me, in public, while still on campus, that he was packing, and I decided I'd like very much to get away from him.

Anyway, I do think we need to assess the tact we use when talking to each other in Serious Discussion, but I also feel like "Serious Discussion" kind of speaks for itself. And many forums that I have frequented have sub forums with pretty similar rules, and also typically called "serious discussion". So you should know what to expect. Dragoncat did know what to expect, given that she bookended her post with "hope I don't regret this".

Edited by Glennstavos

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30 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Anyway, I do think we need to assess the tact we use when talking to each other in Serious Discussion, but I also feel like "Serious Discussion" kind of speaks for itself. And many forums that I have frequented have sub forums with pretty similar rules, and also typically called "serious discussion". So you should know what to expect. Dragoncat did know what to expect, given that she bookended her post with "hope I don't regret this".

I addressed this above in more detail, so I'm not going to repeat that.  At this point, trying to equate both sides isn't mentally honest.  And what kind of discussion can be had if one side is advertising that they're not going to be honest in the first place?

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The arguments I'm not really interested in seriously entertaining are:

1) This would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. We've had multiple presidential elections -- IN RECENT MEMORY -- wherein our candidate won the popular vote but lost the electoral vote and nothing remotely close to this happened. Hillary wasn't routinely ginning up her base about how the Republican party stole the election and we should go "take back" the country. It's absurd. 

2) These are some fringe edgelords and not nearly 30% of the Republican-voting electorate. That they're akin to shady loner terrorists in caves and not much more likely to be the middle-aged landscaper down your street who fell down the Fox News/OANN/Newsmax rabbit hole.

If they're made I will rebuke them in the most succinct and low effort way I can manage.

 

Edited by Crysta

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Those kinds of arguments are disingenuous at best, and downright pathetic at worst. The most recent incarnation, where people on the other side claim that Antifa actors instigated the most heinous acts, is to me, no less sickening. How can people who are part of the movement, a movement that is WAY TOO AWARE of symbols/insignia pertaining to all things Nazi (case in point: the LARPer who had the Mjolnir and Valknut tattoos) take up the same symbols of a regime they so detest? Hell, they call out bands who overtly (see Phil Anselmo of Pantera fame being bashed for yelling "White Power" and doing the Sieg Heil salute) or somewhat covertly (tattoos or band imagery containing iron crosses, sunwheels, the twin Sig runes, etc) portray these things, and folks on the right take a look at that logic and say "Gaetz has a point?"

Edited by Karimlan

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15 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

I will gracefully back out of this. My final word is that I am saddened by this country. I will back out before I put my foot in my mouth with the final word:

There are Republicans who are not these people we speak of. Source: My mother. She is a lovely lady. And most of the state of Wyoming. If I don't get to say that Biden supporters may have possibly pulled this, then you guys don't get to say that all Republicans are the same as these idiots.

I just want to say something to you real quick. This friend you're talking about is presumably Ana and she pretty much said talking to me makes her want to kill herself. In fact she's had a history of telling me that if she weren't a coward she'd kill herself just to get out of being banned from anywhere. The fact that she's a Trump supporter -- that we (and I) had to endure all of the little dog whistles she repeated, lots of which reminds us of growing up, too -- was the cherry on top of an already ugly person. If you think she was banned for being a Trump Supporter, then you really aren't being objective. 

I can provide chat logs of my interactions with her. But Trump is an abusive fucking narcissist and you're reading propaganda if you believe Biden supporters would do the same. I have no fucking idea why you voted for Biden if you think BLM are rioters.

EDIT:  I mean if a guy said that he wanted to ban all autistic people from the US because they're terrorists, that person became president, and another person you're talking to not only voted for that cunt but vehemently defends him and his ideology, you'd be just as fucking pissed at Trump supporters as I am. The fact that I've spent five years being told that "they're not all like that, they're just the crazies, please understand them they don't mean it" while I watched our president gas protesters who are fighting for *everyone's right to not be assault by the police for not being rich and white* and these people stood by them told me all I needed to know.

The literal fact that he withheld aid to investigate a political opponent didn't ring the fascist bells for many of these dumbasses (he got impeached but not removed for this horseshit). The fact is that I gotta be told to understand the mentality that would lead to a Trump vote and that it was never fucking mutual is gaslighting.

Why doesn't one of these Trumpers go to my face and ask me what stupid shit would lead me to vote for Biden? At least we are and were curious, it's pretty obvious that they know why and they just don't care.

I know you wanted to back out of this but I have had to spend like 6 years dealing with her, her uncle, and her bullshit; even if it's someone you hate and don't care for, nobody with a soul wouldn't be affected by someone saying "you make me want to kill myself." Especially when the thread she said it in is about shit you fully fucking care about (BLM).

Edited by Lord Raven

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In light of the talks of Trump possibly issuing pardons over the issue, or even attempting a self-pardon, there's now an attempt to add a Constitutional Amendment that would limit the power of the Presidential Pardon:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-joint-resolution/4/text/ih?overview=closed&format=txt

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I probably don't have a popular view on the pardon but I think it should have oversight by a committee in congress (legally). Obama had a lot of very good and beneficial pardons and commutes for federal drug offenses. Trump overusing it shouldn't be that much of a deterrent imo; a power that grants freedom is heavily preferable to one that takes it away, and I don't actually believe there should be much a limit to that power beyond the public perception (and no state crimes).

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19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

In light of the talks of Trump possibly issuing pardons over the issue, or even attempting a self-pardon, there's now an attempt to add a Constitutional Amendment that would limit the power of the Presidential Pardon:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-joint-resolution/4/text/ih?overview=closed&format=txt

Sadly that amendment would not be implemented on time.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

I probably don't have a popular view on the pardon but I think it should have oversight by a committee in congress (legally). Obama had a lot of very good and beneficial pardons and commutes for federal drug offenses. Trump overusing it shouldn't be that much of a deterrent imo; a power that grants freedom is heavily preferable to one that takes it away, and I don't actually believe there should be much a limit to that power beyond the public perception (and no state crimes).

Maybe, but that isn't the kind of thing you want to keep unchecked, since it opens itself for abuse. As stated by Constitutional Convention delegate George Mason:

"The president ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. It may happen, at some future day, that he will establish a monarchy, and destroy the republic. If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection? The case of treason ought, at least, to be excepted. This is a weighty objection with me.”

It's clear even back then some saw its potential of misuse.

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Lord Raven, I am back here just to comment that it was Ana. While I do not condone her threatening suicide, she is still my friend, as she has been from before I joined SF. I hope you can agree that if someone was your friend, you would be more sympathetic to them. She was banned, from my understanding, for not backing out of heated arguments. But I would be lying if I said nobody egged her on and nobody stirred the pot.

Some of this is coming from the area I live in as well. Wyoming is a red state. My family, my neighbors. Trump supporters. So when you guys say some of these things about Trump supporters, you are indirectly saying these things about my family and neighbors. Step back a bit and try to see where I'm coming from. It does not matter if Crysta says "I don't care about your mom". She does not have to care about my mom or what my mom thinks, but imagine if you were on the recieving end.

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

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12 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

Oh people probably can be red. Just not to the extend that they passionately cheer on an openly corrupt demagogue. 

Republicans might be uniquely bad but Trump is a step beyond that, a step many find beyond the pale. One can support Republicans for faith, guns, babies and ''fiscally responsible reasons'' but those that particularly support Trump with all his corruption and hostility to democracy have a lot of explaining to do. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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29 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Lord Raven, I am back here just to comment that it was Ana. While I do not condone her threatening suicide, she is still my friend, as she has been from before I joined SF. I hope you can agree that if someone was your friend, you would be more sympathetic to them. She was banned, from my understanding, for not backing out of heated arguments. But I would be lying if I said nobody egged her on and nobody stirred the pot.

Some of this is coming from the area I live in as well. Wyoming is a red state. My family, my neighbors. Trump supporters. So when you guys say some of these things about Trump supporters, you are indirectly saying these things about my family and neighbors. Step back a bit and try to see where I'm coming from. It does not matter if Crysta says "I don't care about your mom". She does not have to care about my mom or what my mom thinks, but imagine if you were on the recieving end.

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

I willingly say things about people on that side because I know people on it. I have relatives knee deep in this crap, and I am sick of it. Most of them are really loving, wonderful people. But what they were led to believe is so disgusting I can't associate with them, anymore. Consider doing the same, for your sake, instead of continuing the mental gymnastics.

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Dragoncat, you know I've been generous towards you about this topic, and I don't say this out of spite or malice, but the people in red have shown they are more than willing to tolerant this corruption, racism, and fascist rhetoric. Even if you say, the red don't support Trump directly, the majority of those voters are more than willing to elect senates and representatives that will fall in lock-step with him if they see it will benefit their own self-interest. Unless the terrible person comes out and outright state they are this horrible person, these red voters will always find ways to justify, ignore, denied or downplay these issues, the 'both sides' argument being one of the methods.

You can try to justify that they aren't that bad because they're not the one who activity want these bad stuff that are happening. They may not be as bad, but they are a large problem. These people are often the exact same people who don't want to do anything until we're at a crisis point, and even then, they may still object on doing anything. Either through willful ignorance or the ability to live in a bubble in which they don't have to worry about the many faults in our society, that a lot of our current issues were allowed to persist for decades and grow to this terrible stat.

I mean for godsake, even after multiple reports from the government saying White Terrorist poses the greatest risk for US democracy within the past decade, we still have the police department treating them like they are perfectly fine people after ignoring all the red flags that they were planning to swarm the US capitol. I'm amazed how little the two bombs planted in the capitol is not getting bigger attraction in the news feed.

Edited by Clear World

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57 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Some of this is coming from the area I live in as well. Wyoming is a red state. My family, my neighbors. Trump supporters. So when you guys say some of these things about Trump supporters, you are indirectly saying these things about my family and neighbors. Step back a bit and try to see where I'm coming from. It does not matter if Crysta says "I don't care about your mom". She does not have to care about my mom or what my mom thinks, but imagine if you were on the recieving end.

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

Frankly, what’s allowed here doesn’t really matter. This is just what a bunch of people on the internet think, not meaning it’s automatically true. The world really isn’t that black and white.

12 minutes ago, Clear World said:

I'm amazed how little the two bombs planted in the capitol is not getting bigger attraction in the news feed.

Wait what? Where is the news for this? I haven’t heard anything!

Not that I don’t believe you. I could believe that in a heartbeat. I just wanna read/listen up on it.

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3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Wait what? Where is the news for this? I haven’t heard anything!

Not that I don’t believe you. I could believe that in a heartbeat. I just wanna read/listen up on it.

Here's an article about them, and also of the bunch of Molotov Cocktails also found:

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/washington-dc-pipe-bombs-and-cooler-of-molotov-cocktails/65-d3fe68e9-0b79-4882-95ed-070da6abf2ee

There's also talk of some of the rioters planning to take the senators hostage, since one was seen with zip shackles:

92713972fd98441eaa41aaeaca92d12c_md.jpg

https://www.tmz.com/2021/01/08/capitol-rioters-zip-ties-plan-take-hostages-dc/

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Here's an article about them, and also of the bunch of Molotov Cocktails also found:

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/washington-dc-pipe-bombs-and-cooler-of-molotov-cocktails/65-d3fe68e9-0b79-4882-95ed-070da6abf2ee

There's also talk of some of the rioters planning to take the senators hostage, since one was seen with zip shackles:

92713972fd98441eaa41aaeaca92d12c_md.jpg

https://www.tmz.com/2021/01/08/capitol-rioters-zip-ties-plan-take-hostages-dc/

Thank you for giving me stuff to argue you with! I don’t know why that isn’t getting more coverage though...

Edited by Sooks

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1 hour ago, Dragoncat said:

Lord Raven, I am back here just to comment that it was Ana. While I do not condone her threatening suicide, she is still my friend, as she has been from before I joined SF. I hope you can agree that if someone was your friend, you would be more sympathetic to them. She was banned, from my understanding, for not backing out of heated arguments. But I would be lying if I said nobody egged her on and nobody stirred the pot.

Some of this is coming from the area I live in as well. Wyoming is a red state. My family, my neighbors. Trump supporters. So when you guys say some of these things about Trump supporters, you are indirectly saying these things about my family and neighbors. Step back a bit and try to see where I'm coming from. It does not matter if Crysta says "I don't care about your mom". She does not have to care about my mom or what my mom thinks, but imagine if you were on the recieving end.

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

My dad is a Trump supporter and I have had--many, many heated conversations with him about it in recent months.

...I'll say this about it...

Being a Trump Supporter doesn't automatically mean you support every fascist thing he's done and said. 

But being a Trump Supporter means none of those things were dealbreakers for you.

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Well, I find this utterly disgusting. Republican media and politicians are throwing their own supporters under the bus in an attempt to prevent people from realising their own responsibility for the insurrection. It's the same thing they do whenever someone goes off and kills a bunch of people - place all the blame on the "lone wolf" shooter and deny that there's a systemic problem.

Every Republican who made statements in support of Trump's attempts to overturn the election is complicit in this, and should be immediately removed from office and put on trial. Every media outlet who platformed opinions in support of Trump should also be tried for criminal liability (looking at you, Tucker...)

A lot of people are publicly trying to make this a Trump problem. It is not. It's an issue with the culture of the Republican party and the propaganda-style media environment that they've fought to allow. Biden should therefore prioritise restoration of the Fairness Doctrine or something similar, to discourage media from reporting false information and hopefully bring the USA back to inhabiting a shared reality.

(Look, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I really needed to get that off my chest.)

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Briefly listened to Hannity yesterday just to see how right wing media was covering the riots.
 
After everything they’ve spent the past year saying about BLM, the talking points are now:
 
1) It’s important to remember the reason why people are angry and not fixate on the violence.

2) Most of the protesters werent violent. And the ones that were shouldn’t be seen as representative of the protest or the people who showed up to be heard.

3) There’s always going to be troublemakers and professional agitators who show up just to cause violence at these kinds of things.  They probably weren’t even really affiliated with the protest.

4) Of course we don’t condone violence. BUT. It feels like we’ve been having a one-way conversation and nothings happening. Law-enforcement isn’t listening to us. Lawmakers aren’t listening to us. The courts aren’t listening to us. It’s understandable that people are going to be this angry and feel like this is what they need to do because there’s no other way.
 
5) Of course we don’t condone violence. BUT. Lawmakers need to understand that this is what happens when people are angry and feel like their serious issues are being ignored. This should be a call to action.
 
6) Of course we don’t condone violence. BUT. Isn’t it great now that more people are paying attention to our issue and talking about what should be done about it? Do you think that would’ve happened if everybody just assembled peacefully?
_______
 
Sooooooooo--Literally everything we were trying to tell them and they were pretending like was incomprehensible to them during BLM

None of that flies when people in the streets are protesting against cops having broad, unchecked authority to beat and kill anyone they detain and call it Lawful use of Force.
 
But it OK when they're mad they lost an election.

Ladies and Gentleman:  White Privilege
Edited by Shoblongoo

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2 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Lord Raven, I am back here just to comment that it was Ana. While I do not condone her threatening suicide, she is still my friend, as she has been from before I joined SF. I hope you can agree that if someone was your friend, you would be more sympathetic to them. She was banned, from my understanding, for not backing out of heated arguments. But I would be lying if I said nobody egged her on and nobody stirred the pot.

Some of this is coming from the area I live in as well. Wyoming is a red state. My family, my neighbors. Trump supporters. So when you guys say some of these things about Trump supporters, you are indirectly saying these things about my family and neighbors. Step back a bit and try to see where I'm coming from. It does not matter if Crysta says "I don't care about your mom". She does not have to care about my mom or what my mom thinks, but imagine if you were on the recieving end.

It just feels like there is no gray area allowed here. You are either red or blue. You're not allowed to be purple. And heck, if you're red...well, good luck.

If you feel like reading it, the thread that got anacybele banned is still around. I'd recommend to everyone to just drop the subject though. 

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