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54 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

EDIT: bring on president harris

It's like these guys don't think very far ahead when they make statements like these.  I'm SURE their constituents would love Harris as president!  If they had issues with Obama's skin color, i can't wait to hear them meltdown when they realize that in addition to not being white, she's also female!

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I've heard some things about that representative, she's a fucking crazy person.

Also, she can introduce an impeachment resolution but ... pretty sure articles of impeachment will just go through because one person (or even a handful) want to impeach the president. Besides, introducing articles of impeachment against the president of the opposite party on his first day, when said president hasn't actually done anything in the interim to warrant it, will just drive away anyone still considered "moderate" or the independents. Would be a pretty fucking stupid move on her part, but she doesn't look smart.

Vote these fucking insane people out, or if there's evidence they're complicit with the storming of the Capitol a week ago, expel them now.

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The wheels of justice are turning!

It may not be as fast as I'd like them to, but it's a start!  I fully expect to see this updated with more names and complaints.  And on the off-chance that someone whines about this, I'm pretty sure all the linked documents are public.

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

The wheels of justice are turning!

It may not be as fast as I'd like them to, but it's a start!  I fully expect to see this updated with more names and complaints.  And on the off-chance that someone whines about this, I'm pretty sure all the linked documents are public.

That is neat! These criminals and terrorists need to be publicly identified. Hopefully public humiliation on top of the criminal charges would be enough to discourage further treason against the United States.

I am still annoyed that they are not labelled more consistently as terrorists by the mainstream media. Freaking pipe bombs were found around the Capitol.

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Hey I cannot wait until Brazil finally gets to do their own version of the Capitol invasion instead this time the army and the police are fully behind the insane fascist in power!

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17 hours ago, XRay said:

That is neat! These criminals and terrorists need to be publicly identified. Hopefully public humiliation on top of the criminal charges would be enough to discourage further treason against the United States.

This is of course assuming that those people share your values. Terrorists are viewed as revolutionaries and freedom fighters in their own ranks. If you aren't careful you can serve to embolden more to their cause. 

These people feel as if democracy has failed them. But not even just that, they believe that their vote is not counted or heard. The truth of the matter is irrelevant to them as their belief in whether it's true or not is all that they care about, they'll reject facts and evidence as propaganda outright if it doesn't fit their preconceptions of the situation, and if enough people believe this and feel that democratic methods cannot be used to implement their political will. They will resort to other methods. Riots, violence etc. 

People in the US like to think that these movements are more fringe than they are but there are increasingly large cracks forming betwern various groups and the us vs them mentality is causing more and more people to vote in candidates that further the political divide. 

 

I really can't see this ending well if things continue along their present trends. Seems like the US is on course for a Civil War again if it hits the point where about half the country believes the current government is illegitimate and that their views are not represented. Very similar to what happened the last time. I don't think we have an issue as regionally divisive like slavery was at the time right now. But I do see an increasingly strong divide between rural and urban areas. 

I strongly feel that if trends continue as they are for another 10 or 20 years the US might hit a point of no return where a Civil War is inevitable. I don't think anyone wants that, but I feel the short term interests of many people in Washington including President Trump are taking heavy precedence over long term stability concerns that will continue to grow until they are too big to ignore any longer. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

This is of course assuming that those people share your values. Terrorists are viewed as revolutionaries and freedom fighters in their own ranks. If you aren't careful you can serve to embolden more to their cause.

I don't negotiate with terrorists.  Because they don't negotiate in good faith.

1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

These people feel as if democracy has failed them. But not even just that, they believe that their vote is not counted or heard. The truth of the matter is irrelevant to them as their belief in whether it's true or not is all that they care about, they'll reject facts and evidence as propaganda outright if it doesn't fit their preconceptions of the situation, and if enough people believe this and feel that democratic methods cannot be used to implement their political will. They will resort to other methods. Riots, violence etc.

That's lovely, what is your point?

1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

People in the US like to think that these movements are more fringe than they are but there are increasingly large cracks forming betwern various groups and the us vs them mentality is causing more and more people to vote in candidates that further the political divide.

You might have a point if the guy taking office in a week was named "Bernie Sanders".  Except it's "Joe Biden", who is far closer to what I'd expect out of an American president.  The only ones spitting into the divide are those that don't understand that "my way or the high way" is a really bad take on everything.

1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

I really can't see this ending well if things continue along their present trends. Seems like the US is on course for a Civil War again if it hits the point where about half the country believes the current government is illegitimate and that their views are not represented. Very similar to what happened the last time. I don't think we have an issue as regionally divisive like slavery was at the time right now. But I do see an increasingly strong divide between rural and urban areas.

And yet you don't go into WHY that half thinks the election was illegitimate, etc.  Which is an extremely important point if you're going to parrot points like this.

1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

I strongly feel that if trends continue as they are for another 10 or 20 years the US might hit a point of no return where a Civil War is inevitable. I don't think anyone wants that, but I feel the short term interests of many people in Washington including President Trump are taking heavy precedence over long term stability concerns that will continue to grow until they are too big to ignore any longer.

Please tell me what side the Joint Chiefs of Staff are on.

I will reserve the rest of what I want to say based on your reply.

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52 minutes ago, eclipse said:

don't negotiate with terrorists.  Because they don't negotiate in good faith.

Agreed but that leaves violence as the only option to deal with terrorists. 

 

54 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The only ones spitting into the divide are those that don't understand that "my way or the high way" is a really bad take on everything.

Also agreed but this is very much the state of popular political discourse at the moment. 

 

55 minutes ago, eclipse said:

And yet you don't go into WHY that half thinks the election was illegitimate, etc.

Well I think it's because they are getting riled up on social media and Trump's and other extreme partisan Republicans attempts to gain political power by playing into people's fears. But the why isn't very important. Whether the beliefs are legitimate or not they are real to the people that hold them and that makes the situation very dangerous. I get the suscint impression that a lot of people in government really just don't understand what makes these people tick and their responses to them only serve to make the situation worse. Like the fact checking blurbs on Facebook, people who have decided to believe in conspiracies have already decided not to believe anything that proves their conspiracies wrong. There are more effective ways of placating them and dispelling the conspiracies that don't pour more fuel on the fire so to speak. 

 

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Please tell me what side the Joint Chiefs of Staff are on.

Currently most certainly not on Trumps side. The question is what happens as time goes on? The supreme court was never supposed to be partisan yet it's consistently stacked by each administration. As partisanship escalates it will slowly creep into all aspects of government if not stopped. 

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Just now, scigeek101 said:

Agreed but that leaves violence as the only option to deal with terrorists.

Guess what?  They decided that violence was the only way to deal with everyone else.  Sucks?  Yes.  But when you have a side that absolutely will not negotiate, it doesn't leave much of a choice - to them, it's comply or die.

1 minute ago, scigeek101 said:

Also agreed but this is very much the state of popular political discourse at the moment.

Anyone with five functioning brain cells and the ability to listen to recent events will know this.  So again, what's your point?

2 minutes ago, scigeek101 said:

Well I think it's because they are getting riled up on social media and Trump's and other extreme partisan Republicans attempts to gain political power by playing into people's fears. But the why isn't very important. Whether the beliefs are legitimate or not they are real to the people that hold them and that makes the situation very dangerous. I get the suscint impression that a lot of people in government really just don't understand what makes these people tick and their responses to them only serve to make the situation worse. Like the fact checking blurbs on Facebook, people who have decided to believe in conspiracies have already decided not to believe anything that proves their conspiracies wrong. There are more effective ways of placating them and dispelling the conspiracies that don't pour more fuel on the fire so to speak.

Fine.  I'll be nice.  But you're dancing around the issue, and that's part of the problem.

Trump wouldn't be quite as big of an issue if he wasn't spouting lies left, right, and center.  The people who've latched onto him have overwritten reality with the false narrative he's pushing.  Meanwhile, we have a block of politicians who are also advancing those same lies, never mind other mass media powers (including some unscrupulous churches).

Unless you acknowledge that you're dealing with a group that believes a very different reality and refuses to come back, you're blowing smoke.  That is the entire crux of the problem, which is why the usual forms of negotiation won't work.

5 minutes ago, scigeek101 said:

Currently most certainly not on Trumps side. The question is what happens as time goes on? The supreme court was never supposed to be partisan yet it's consistently stacked by each administration. As partisanship escalates it will slowly creep into all aspects of government if not stopped. 

And the point of THIS is?  I have no idea what'll happen in the future, either.  But I'm thankful that the SC basically told Trump to pound sand over the vote thing.

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4 hours ago, scigeek101 said:

This is of course assuming that those people share your values. Terrorists are viewed as revolutionaries and freedom fighters in their own ranks. If you aren't careful you can serve to embolden more to their cause. 

These people feel as if democracy has failed them. But not even just that, they believe that their vote is not counted or heard. The truth of the matter is irrelevant to them as their belief in whether it's true or not is all that they care about, they'll reject facts and evidence as propaganda outright if it doesn't fit their preconceptions of the situation, and if enough people believe this and feel that democratic methods cannot be used to implement their political will. They will resort to other methods. Riots, violence etc. 

People in the US like to think that these movements are more fringe than they are but there are increasingly large cracks forming betwern various groups and the us vs them mentality is causing more and more people to vote in candidates that further the political divide. 

I really can't see this ending well if things continue along their present trends. Seems like the US is on course for a Civil War again if it hits the point where about half the country believes the current government is illegitimate and that their views are not represented. Very similar to what happened the last time. I don't think we have an issue as regionally divisive like slavery was at the time right now. But I do see an increasingly strong divide between rural and urban areas. 

I strongly feel that if trends continue as they are for another 10 or 20 years the US might hit a point of no return where a Civil War is inevitable. I don't think anyone wants that, but I feel the short term interests of many people in Washington including President Trump are taking heavy precedence over long term stability concerns that will continue to grow until they are too big to ignore any longer. 

I'm reading this and I'm wondering what your starting point is. These people are ultimately powerless to stop the election. They were growing but a lot of their communication platforms have gone limp and they might just figure out that they've been getting fucked.

We'll see what happens. But while these things disperse and don't disappear, from there it's basically whack-a-mole.

I mean, ultimately I pray these people split off and make their own party rather than act with their delusions of grandeur. Darwin will take them if they die of COVID without proper hospital infrastructure. And hey, maybe the survivors will figure it out.

Edited by Lord Raven

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2 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

I'm reading this and I'm wondering what your starting point is. These people are ultimately powerless to stop the election. They were growing but a lot of their communication platforms have gone limp and they might just figure out that they've been getting fucked.

We'll see what happens. But while these things disperse and don't disappear, from there it's basically whack-a-mole.

I mean, ultimately I pray these people split off and make their own party rather than act with their delusions of grandeur. Darwin will take them if they die of COVID without proper hospital infrastructure. And hey, maybe the survivors will figure it out.

If feel like it's been the amalgamation of several groups and trends that have been around for decades at least. The current religious conservative movement in the US can mind of be traced back to the Satanic Panic of the 1980's and I feel like it's escalated since then. Though perhaps some of it can be traced back to religious fallout after RvW mobilizing voters who would otherwise not be voting in bloc as we see today. Single issue voters are the glue holding them together. 

 

It'll be whack a mole for a bit but I highly suspect Trump plans to spin off his own social media and news service after this.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's not real terrorism unless they tell people about the bombs before hand.

Using that logic, 9/11 wasn't a terrorist attack, and I don't believe that it was anything other than a terrorist attack. .

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16 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Using that logic, 9/11 wasn't a terrorist attack, and I don't believe that it was anything other than a terrorist attack. .

You could argue that, though Al-Queda were an existing entity that had made their opposition to Western involvement in what they viewed as their part of the world clear and had already openly threatened to kill Americans. Though not specifically on that date and place. The point is they it was a use of violent intimidation to achieve goals. And intimidation is critical, it's right there in the name terrorism.  Terrorism doesn't simply mean bad people doing bad things. It is a specific way of fighting for something and it can indeed be noble. More noble than launching an outright armed conflict I dare say (which this riot more resembles).

And just in case anyone gets the wrong idea here, I in absolutely no way condone the 9/11 attacks or basically any targeted slaughter of civilians.

Edited by Jotari

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

You could argue that, though Al-Queda were an existing entity that had made their opposition to Western involvement in what they viewed as their part of the world clear and had already openly threatened to kill Americans. Though not specifically on that date and place. The point is they it was a use of violent intimidation to achieve goals. And intimidation is critical, it's right there in the name terrorism.  Terrorism doesn't simply mean bad people doing bad things. It is a specific way of fighting for something and it can indeed be noble. More noble than launching an outright armed conflict I dare say (which this riot more resembles).

The Capitol Hill insurrectionists were trying to violently intimidate Congress to stop the count of electoral votes by breaking into the building. In that way, wouldn't it fit the definition of terrorism? And Trump's tweet about marching on Capitol Hill was a warning of sorts, too.

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Doesn't feel like things are going limp anywhere on this front. If one platform goes offline, they simply gravitate towards another.

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1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Doesn't feel like things are going limp anywhere on this front. If one platform goes offline, they simply gravitate towards another.

Huh? They can't hold a "chat room" over telegram. 

Oh, is it because the FBI has been tracking the cell numbers of every phone that was turned on within the capitol building? Yeah, you know how in a lot of spy/action thrillers a character uses a "burn phone" or angrily takes away the cell phone of a less badass character? That kind of tracking appears to be real.

Edited by Glennstavos

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The Jan. 6th riots have a Wikipedia page now. The article is titled as the 2021 Storming of the United States Capitol. Oh, and happy 20th b-day to Wikipedia. Thanks for the free info over the years, we appreciate it! (not that Wiki moderators will see that, but I digress)

In other news, security is amping up to the max in the Capitol before the inauguration. My coworker told me about something he heard relating to people online organizing another attack on Inauguration Day, so hopefully nothing bad goes down.

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Just read this article, and I agree with it that it is safe to say that Trump is arguably as bad as, if not worse than, Buchanan.

Buchanan fucked up pretty badly, setting up the Civil War, but he did not actually want it to happen and he is not the sole reason it happened.

Trump on the other hand basically incited treasonous terrorists to storm the Capitol in an attempt to overturn the will of the American people. Trump is the cannon, and his terrorists the cannonball, that assaulted Fort Sumter. Partisanship and division runs deep in our a country right now, but it is thankfully not deep enough reignite another Civil War, or at least I hope so. In terms of deaths for just soldiers, the United States suffered about 360,000 deaths from the Civil War and about 400,000 during WWII. Trump is responsible for the deaths of nearly 400,000 Americans and climbing due to COVID without even starting a major war. And that is just some of the domestic issues. In terms of foreign policy, he is a disaster too, greatly undermining America's alliances, soft power, and reputation while allowing China and Russia to fill power vacuum that America has left.

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9 hours ago, XRay said:

Just read this article, and I agree with it that it is safe to say that Trump is arguably as bad as, if not worse than, Buchanan.

Buchanan fucked up pretty badly, setting up the Civil War, but he did not actually want it to happen and he is not the sole reason it happened.

Trump on the other hand basically incited treasonous terrorists to storm the Capitol in an attempt to overturn the will of the American people. Trump is the cannon, and his terrorists the cannonball, that assaulted Fort Sumter. Partisanship and division runs deep in our a country right now, but it is thankfully not deep enough reignite another Civil War, or at least I hope so. In terms of deaths for just soldiers, the United States suffered about 360,000 deaths from the Civil War and about 400,000 during WWII. Trump is responsible for the deaths of nearly 400,000 Americans and climbing due to COVID without even starting a major war. And that is just some of the domestic issues. In terms of foreign policy, he is a disaster too, greatly undermining America's alliances, soft power, and reputation while allowing China and Russia to fill power vacuum that America has left.

Its too soon to definitively rank Trump but he's probably destined to forever bungle in the bottom three spots. 

I think Trump is going to strongly rehabilitate some presidents who were previously considered to be terrible. I don't think Buchanan is among them but Nixon, Hoover and Harding should all start looking better by comparison. 

Nixon is widely remembered as the crook president, but I think Trump will take over as the archetypal crooked president. And while Nixon was unpleasant and corrupt he was at least a talented politician and effective president. People might start focusing more on Nixon's accomplishments now they saw a president who was not only far more corrupt than Nixon but also has a dearth of real accomplishments. 

Hoover is blamed for an incredibly poor response to the financial crisis that made it much worse. But at least there was a response and Hoover did try to help. If you compare that by the Corona crisis where there basically was no response by the Trump administration and where he didn't want to help Hoover starts looking far better. You can pity Hoover for being the wrong man at the wrong time, but Trump did everything to be the wrong man and create the wrong time. 

Harding is ranked as one of the worst presidents for being extremely corrupt. Trump is extremely corrupt as well, probably to a far larger degree. With Harding the corruption seems to have mostly come from his cronies who were the ones who profited and who might have used Harding as a puppet. With Trump the extreme corruption came from himself and was there not to enrich his cronies but himself. 

Trump comes across as a combination of the worst traits of Nixon, Harding and Hoover without carrying even a single one of their virtues or mitigating circumstances. Future history books will likely use him as the textbook example of a horrible president. Its just a shame that Trump likely won't live long enough for this reputation to be cemented. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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