Is it too early to expect a Character Tier List?

[Psyruby]

I can not give you a character tier list, but I have complied all the relevant data on classes to the point that I have a tier list. HOWEVER, I did not account for skills, so you have to use your own intuition to rank the classes with skills(General obviously becomes a lot better with Defensive Formation).

The rankings are formed from Caps, Total Range(Movement+Weapon Range), Weapon Rank(basically all the benefits you get from your weapon options), Pair Up Bonuses, and Weaknesses. These were all ranked and weighted by importance to find the total Rank.

So without further ado, here is my tier list based off statistical analysis.

http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o659/psyruby42/Class%20Tier%20List_zpspfvme0yj.png~original

EDIT: If you have any questions about how I came to this conclusion, or you want to know why "X" class is in "X" tier, feel free to ask.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Psyruby

[astrophys]

Why should we care about low-turn count for a tier list rather than ease of winning?

Granted, those might often overlap, but low-turn counts (if truly going for low-turn counts) would involve various risky maneuvers to shave off further turns that aren't necessarily the most reliable or best ways to go about clearing the map.

[Minischew]

I can not give you a character tier list, but I have complied all the relevant data on classes to the point that I have a tier list. HOWEVER, I did not account for skills, so you have to use your own intuition to rank the classes with skills(General obviously becomes a lot better with Defensive Formation).

The rankings are formed from Caps, Total Range(Movement+Weapon Range), Weapon Rank(basically all the benefits you get from your weapon options), Pair Up Bonuses, and Weaknesses. These were all ranked and weighted by importance to find the total Rank.

So without further ado, here is my tier list based off statistical analysis.

http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o659/psyruby42/Class%20Tier%20List_zpspfvme0yj.png~original

I personally don't find skills that important in rating classes (due to reclassing options and skill purchases), so this tier list proves very useful to me. If you don't mind me asking:

How much weight did each category have? I know this is simplifying matters, but let's say a class had awesome caps and horrid total range (which I imagine is the case for General). Then would caps be considered of the utmost importance and make the class a good one?

Also, this list seems to consist of mostly the promoted classes, so why is Lancer thrown in there? Is it simply to highlight that Lancer is the worst class?

It also depends on which path you're playing

For example, Invisible Kingdom 6-8 is "practically" Avatar Emblem

Aside from that, the other routes give you sufficient characters that you don't really have that much trouble...though to be honest, the chapters before the decision is basically Avatar Emblem of sorts (except Chapter 4)

Prologue/Chap 1: Avatar Only

2-4 can be done without the Avatar if you really want.

Chap 5 is almost certainly unwinnable without the Avatar.

Chap 6 in Hoshido/Nohr is kind of the opposite, you have to go to lengths to try to have the Avatar kill everyone

Effie as I mentioned is unquestionably overpowered (in general anyway...high stats all round, sure she's slow but that's not really that important)

Oh dear. I really don't want to do Avatar Emblem, since I like using a variety of characters.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Minischew

[Psyruby]

I personally don't find skills that important in rating classes (due to reclassing options and skill purchases), so this tier list proves very useful to me. If you don't mind me asking:

Did you give each of the categories the same weight? I know this is simplifying matters, but let's say a class had awesome caps and horrid total range (which I imagine is the case for General). Then would this balance out to make the class a decent one, or would you consider the caps more and still consider the class a good one?

Also, this list seems to consist of mostly the promoted classes, so why is Lancer thrown in there? Is it simply to highlight that Lancer is a horrible class?

1) No they don't have the same weight. The weights given were Stat Caps = 6x, Weapon Bonus = 2x, Range = 2x, Pair Up Bonus = 1x, Weakness = 1x.

2) Lancer is a capture-able unit with no promotion, skills, and a B rank in lances. It has average stats, but you can get an idea of how useful a captured grunt is.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Psyruby

[Featherwick]

1) No they don't have the same weight. The weights given were Stat Caps = 6x, Weapon Bonus = 2x, Range = 2x, Pair Up Bonus = 1x, Weakness = 1x.

2) Lancer is a capture-able unit with no promotion, skills, and a B rank in lances. It has average stats, but you can get an idea of how useful a captured grunt is.

Speaking of lancers, how are the capture units? Most of them seem to have pretty good growths, and good stats (since they are who you are fighting after all). Are they good at all?

[Psyruby]

Speaking of lancers, how are the capture units? Most of them seem to have pretty good growths, and good stats (since they are who you are fighting after all). Are they good at all?

I cannot speak for that. This was all done through statistical analysis, as I don't have the Japanese game myself. I was using the data that Vincent put on the site to compile that. However, I think the captured lancers are just meant to be a fun thing you can do. It'd be pretty funny if you beat normal/hard/Lunatic with nothing but grunts.

[Ayra]

At least for no or limited grinding in the main campaign, stat caps are mostly irrelevant. I just looked at my finished Hard Hoshido file, and here's what I had capped:

Kagerou: Strength (Level 20/16 Great Ninja)

Sophie: Strength (Level 20/18 Paladin)

Aqua: Skill (Level 32 Songstress)

And that's it. I didn't have any other stat capped on any of my units on my completed file (Including a level 20/20 Kamui).

[CocoaGalaxy]

You mostly need to hit 20/20 to hit your caps anyway, there are some exceptions, but most (aside from things like Kagerou's strength, some luck caps) cap around 20/15 or so, and even the faster ones cap at 20/10.

Plus the fact that you can get screwed on the lower difficulties, and without grinding, I don't think exp is all that abundant, though you can probably still hit 20/10, 20/15 without too much trouble.

It also depends on how many paralogues you do

Edited July 25, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[astrophys]

I think Arya is right here…

I don't have the game, but I've been doing calculations based on promotions and growth rates

For example, a hypothetical +MAG/-DEF Dark Knight, married to Matoi, spending a hypothetical 19 level ups as a a Nohr Prince, 1 as a Falcon Warrior (picking up Swallow Strike), and 18 as a Dark Knight would give the following:

Starting stats:

19 HP, 7 Str, 7 Mag, 7 Skl, 6 Spd, 5 Lck, 5 Def, 2 Res

Average Nohr Prince gains over 19 levels (1->20)

11.4 HP, 11.4 Str, 11.4 Mag, 9.5 Skl, 11.4 Spd, 9.5 Lck, 6.65 Def, 5.7 Res

Average Falcon Warrior gains from 1 level (20/1 -> 20/2)

0.45 Hp, 0.55 Str, 0.60 Mag, 0.50 Skl, 0.65 Spd, 0.60 Lck, 0.25 Def, 0.45 Res

Average Dark Knight gains from 18 levels (20/2-> 20/20)

10.8 Hp, 11.7 Str, 10.8 Mag, 8.1 Skl, 9.9 Spd, 8.1 Lck, 7.2 Def, 5.4 Res

Change in base stats from Nohr Prince to Dark Knight:

+2 Hp, +1 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +1 Lck, +3 Def, +4 Res

Predicted Average Totals:

43.65 HP, 31.65 Str, 32.8 Mag, 27.1 Skl, 27.95 Spd, 24.2 Lck, 22.1 Def, 17.55 Res

Max Stat Caps:

55 HP, 32 Str, 35 Mag, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 30 Lck, 31 Def, 31 Res

Difference (average amount needed to hit caps):

11.35 HP, 0.35 Str, 2.2 Mag, 0.9 Skl, 1.05 Spd, 5.8 Lck, 8.9 Def, 13.45 Res

So its quite conceivable that with the combination of stat boosters found during the campaign or getting slightly blessed in certain stats you could max out some of them. Perhaps you might even be more likely to devote the stat boosters to such a character than normal in this example because its using one's lord….

You could possibly max HP if you gave two Angelic Robes… and then got two points of HP blessing

Str could quite likely get maxed regardless; 0.35 isn't that much of a bless that's needed, although in probability you'd need a booster to it the cap.

Mag could get close with a Spirit Dust.

Skl and Spd are in the territory where their boosters or a point or two of blessing would max them out.

Lck would need a Goddess Icon, most likely, and even then you'd need another 1.8 points…

And as for Def and Res… there's no way that those are getting maxed out… you could use Dracoshields and Talismans to close the gap, but you're still talking about a large gap…. this is what happens when one's flaw is DEF and RES has a naturally low growth (its penalty from -DEF is offset from +MAG) and you grow in class with +5% RES growth.

[Bovinian]

Elise is reminiscent of Micaiah in that her stats are very polarizing - as a 20/20 Strategist she will on average have capped Mag/Spd/Luck and is also likely to have capped Res, at the expense of having very bad HP and Defense (Skill isn't too good either). I think she wins the award for most stats likely to be capped naturally, very slightly beating out even Mozume in this regard (who can cap Str/Skl/Spd if she promotes to Great Merchant, and possibly Luck). Mozume will be much more well-rounded though, since unlike Elise, she won't actually have any bad stats aside from her Mag

Edit: Actually Anna is also likely to have capped Mag/Spd/Luck/Res as an Adventurer by 20/20, but no one has her yet

Edited July 25, 2015 by Bovinian

[HTakara82]

Elise is reminiscent of Micaiah in that her stats are very polarizing - as a 20/20 Strategist she will on average have capped Mag/Spd/Luck and is also likely to have capped Res, at the expense of having very bad HP and Defense (Skill isn't too good either). I think she wins the award for most stats likely to be capped naturally, very slightly beating out even Mozume in this regard (who can cap Str/Skl/Spd if she promotes to Great Merchant, and possibly Luck). Mozume will be much more well-rounded though, since unlike Elise, she won't actually have any bad stats aside from her Mag

Edit: Actually Anna is also likely to have capped Mag/Spd/Luck/Res as an Adventurer by 20/20, but no one has her yet

I was about to say, what about Anna?! lol.

[Ownagepuffs]

Why should we care about low-turn count for a tier list rather than ease of winning?

Granted, those might often overlap, but low-turn counts (if truly going for low-turn counts) would involve various risky maneuvers to shave off further turns that aren't necessarily the most reliable or best ways to go about clearing the map.

Low turn counts with reliability is known as efficiency. That's what they meant. "Just caring about winning" breaks down distinctions between units, because then things like boss abuse, Valni spam, taking 100 turns, and arena abuse are fair game.

[GoXDS]

I can not give you a character tier list, but I have complied all the relevant data on classes to the point that I have a tier list. HOWEVER, I did not account for skills, so you have to use your own intuition to rank the classes with skills(General obviously becomes a lot better with Defensive Formation).

The rankings are formed from Caps, Total Range(Movement+Weapon Range), Weapon Rank(basically all the benefits you get from your weapon options), Pair Up Bonuses, and Weaknesses. These were all ranked and weighted by importance to find the total Rank.

So without further ado, here is my tier list based off statistical analysis.

http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o659/psyruby42/Class%20Tier%20List_zpspfvme0yj.png~original

EDIT: If you have any questions about how I came to this conclusion, or you want to know why "X" class is in "X" tier, feel free to ask.

why do you have Dread Fighter at -2? having weapon triangle options is always good, great stat caps, Aggressor, completely wrecks Magic users, pretty good Growth rates, and very solid Base stats when someone reclasses into it. +2 Str/Spd from Support is good, too since those are key stats

it's also a solid reclass option for Azura should you decide to use her not for Dancing. if reclassed early, she'll naturally, on average, cap in Str, Skill, Speed, Res, HP is also made a bit more tolerable (25% -> 40%). Def is still utter crap but 15% base growth doomed that stat from the start. plus, since Dancer has E Rank Lance (I think?), doesn't matter and since Singer Base stats suck, she'll gain a lot

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Espinosa]

Why take growths into account at all when even the Nohr path has infinite stat boosters? Talking about postgame, that is. For an efficient ingame, you won't reclass your sole dancer into a Dread Fighter obviously.

[GoXDS]

Why take growths into account at all when even the Nohr path has infinite stat boosters? Talking about postgame, that is. For an efficient ingame, you won't reclass your sole dancer into a Dread Fighter obviously.

Azura was just 1 example. plus I said if you chose not to use her as Singer. mileage varies between how much people value Sing/Dance/Vigor. like you can argue that in most cases, Dancing just means you get to reuse one of your attackers anyways so why not just use another attacker (very good one bar physical bulk)? not saying that's the only usage for dance ofc

I'm just naming pros for Dread Fighter and don't really see any glaring weaknesses when looking at caps. at least no weaknesses warranting a -2 rating

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

why do you have Dread Fighter at -2? having weapon triangle options is always good, great stat caps, Aggressor, completely wrecks Magic users, pretty good Growth rates, and very solid Base stats when someone reclasses into it. +2 Str/Spd from Support is good, too since those are key stats

it's also a solid reclass option for Azura should you decide to use her not for Dancing. if reclassed early, she'll naturally, on average, cap in Str, Skill, Speed, Res, HP is also made a bit more tolerable (25% -> 40%). Def is still utter crap but 15% base growth doomed that stat from the start. plus, since Dancer has E Rank Lance (I think?), doesn't matter and since Singer Base stats suck, she'll gain a lot

1) Growths aren't taken into account for the list.

2) Skills aren't accounted for cause any class can have any skill given the right character unit.

3) Having the weapon triangle is nice, but a lot of classes have access to equally good or better options. S rank weapons are terrifyingly powerful(enough so that they can overthrow the weapon triangle itself in some situations), Great Knight and Weapon Master also can carry all the weapons, and having magic and physical options also has its own advantages for the units that have tomes/staves with physical weapons.

4) Dread Fighter's stats have a strange emphasis on Resistance, which honestly isn't very important. Sure you can have a dedicated mage killer, but Mages weren't terribly hard to beat in the first place for this game.

5) Dread Fighter has average HP, Str, Spd, okay Magic, and below average Skill, Luck, and Defense. It's kinda mediocre outside Resistance.

6) Dread Fighters pair up bonuses are... alright.... but they aren't great. A lot of units give speed and their attacking stat. So it isn't particularly special and once again the emphasis on Resistance isn't really wanted.

7) As most grounded units, it's range isn't that great. It's alright.

EDIT: Here is the retooled tier list. Changes are taking into account if a class can use the magic physical weapons(levin swords and stuff), fixing how range works, I can now get tier lists for characters(not children yet).

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/psyruby42/media/Adjusted%20Fates%20Tier%20List_zpsvdxoduv2.png.html

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[Meh]

Why take growths into account at all when even the Nohr path has infinite stat boosters? Talking about postgame, that is. For an efficient ingame, you won't reclass your sole dancer into a Dread Fighter obviously.

wait, there's infinite stat boosters? First time hearing this. source/proof?

[GoXDS]

1) Growths aren't taken into account for the list.

2) Skills aren't accounted for cause any class can have any skill given the right character unit.

3) Having the weapon triangle is nice, but a lot of classes have access to equally good or better options. S rank weapons are terrifyingly powerful(enough so that they can overthrow the weapon triangle itself in some situations), Great Knight and Weapon Master also can carry all the weapons, and having magic and physical options also has its own advantages for the units that have tomes/staves with physical weapons.

4) Dread Fighter's stats have a strange emphasis on Resistance, which honestly isn't very important. Sure you can have a dedicated mage killer, but Mages weren't terribly hard to beat in the first place for this game.

5) Dread Fighter has average HP, Str, Spd, okay Magic, and below average Skill, Luck, and Defense. It's kinda mediocre outside Resistance.

6) Dread Fighters pair up bonuses are... alright.... but they aren't great. A lot of units give speed and their attacking stat. So it isn't particularly special and once again the emphasis on Resistance isn't really wanted.

7) As most grounded units, it's range isn't that great. It's alright.

EDIT: Here is the retooled tier list. Changes are taking into account if a class can use the magic physical weapons(levin swords and stuff), fixing how range works, I can now get tier lists for characters(not children yet).

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/psyruby42/media/Adjusted%20Fates%20Tier%20List_zpsvdxoduv2.png.html

eh, I'm just nitpicking at this rate so you can ignore me if you want since this is your tier list and you can factor things in how you want.

3) better options than Sword/Axe/Hidden? sure, Hidden might be weak compared to Lance but I'm not sure about Bows over Axes and Tomes vs Swords but I guess you're considering cap stats for all, even for those with abysmal growth rates and would never normally use both Mag/Str. S Rank weapons have huge penalties, too so personally I wouldn't value S Ranking too highly. I'd still say having 3 options is still better than average at the very least since most are 2 while S Ranking usually means only 1 option. also, mixed Mag/Str isn't too great because characters usually aren't neutral in the modifiers for Mag/Str (usually negative in one or the other), plus Tomes are one of the weaker weapon types. Hidden weapons at least work off a (usually) stronger stat with debuffs

4) if I average all the maximum stats then: 58/31/28/30.5/31/30/29.5/28.5 so average/below average HP/Def, above average/average Str/Spd, average Mag (though Mag is skewed by so many non-magic classes), below average Skill, bottom tier Luck, and top tier Res. however, Skill and Luck are usually the least important stats. you only need some and extra is superfluous. that Res still has to count for something but I guess one could say that spread is mediocre *shrug*

5) Pair Ups are okay, yea. while there are some that give Attack/Speed, most only give attack or neither

in short, if 3) should be above average, and imo 4) and 5) is at least average, Dread Fighter should at least be 0.

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

eh, I'm just nitpicking at this rate so you can ignore me if you want since this is your tier list and you can factor things in how you want.

3) better options than Sword/Axe/Hidden? sure, Hidden might be weak compared to Lance but I'm not sure about Bows over Axes and Tomes vs Swords but I guess you're considering cap stats for all, even for those with abysmal growth rates and would never normally use both Mag/Str. S Rank weapons have huge penalties, too so personally I wouldn't value S Ranking too highly. I'd still say having 3 options is still better than average at the very least since most are 2 while S Ranking usually means only 1 option

4) if I average all the maximum stats then: 58/31/28/30.5/31/30/29.5/28.5 so average/below average HP/Def, above average/average Str/Spd, average Mag (though Mag is skewed by so many non-magic classes), below average Skill, bottom tier Luck, and top tier Res. however, Skill and Luck are usually the least important stats. you only need some and extra is superfluous. that Res still has to count for something but I guess one could say that spread is mediocre *shrug*

5) Pair Ups are okay, yea. while there are some that give Attack/Speed, most only give attack or neither

in short, if 3) should be above average, and imo 4) and 5) is at least average, Dread Fighter should at least be 0.

S ranks do not come with a bad drawback, the close range weapons have STR halved for the next battle. The 3rd battle they are back to normal.

The sword is basically 10.5 Mt, 95 Acc, 20 Avoid. Also, you can just switch between the Levin sword and the S rank if you want to completely negate the drawback(a tempting offer since Trueblades have good enough magic). The Lance is basically 10.5 Mt, 85 Acc, 20 Crit Evade, +1 Def and Res, and the Axe is 12 Mt, 75 Acc, and 15 Crit. Those weapons far outweigh other weapon options on average. Hell even the S rank Bow and Kunai are amazing, and Excalibur is crazy on a witch. You don't really care about the draw back when you can just OHKO an enemy at full health for the ranged S ranks

.

Keep in mind -1 isn't unusable(in fact in campaign they are very easily useable), you are just outclassed usually when at max stats. Dread Fighter has a hard time fulfilling the niche of a mage killer when things like Ninjas, Mountain Priest, Falcon Warrior can be mage killers and provide support in many different ways.

EDIT: I just remembered, if you can tell me how you value your attack stat(Str/Mag), Skill, Speed, Luck, HP, Def, and Res. I can put in those values, and create your custom Tier list. If you tell me how you value weapon options, Range, Stat Caps, Pair Ups, and Weaknesses, I can also adjust that. I made my excel sheet be very customizable for just this case.

For reference: my weight right now is 2 Attacking Stat(Str/Mag) = 2 Spd = 3 Def = 5 Skill/Luck = 6 Res. My weight for the summation of abilities is 1x Stat Caps = 3x Range/Weapon Options = 6x Pair Up/Weakness(as in the Stat caps are the most important when read).

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[Jedi]

What is this tier list even based off of?

LTC is usually the basis we go off of for FE tier lists.

[Psyruby]

What is this tier list even based off of?

LTC is usually the basis we go off of for FE tier lists.

Right now it is just number crunching. This tier list has been weighed so that offense is favored over defense, but that's cause that is how it actually works in the game. Basically it is a huge spread sheet of crunching several different factors including stat caps, weapon options, movement, pair up, and weakness, all weighed at different values(cause it would be silly to weigh weakness the same as stat caps). Keep in mind that this tier list doesn't account for skills, so you might as well put the general at 5 with the Berserker. I'm trying to come up with a method to include skills very carefully while creating a character tier list.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

S ranks do not come with a bad drawback, the close range weapons have STR halved for the next battle. The 3rd battle they are back to normal.

The sword is basically 10.5 Mt, 95 Acc, 20 Avoid. Also, you can just switch between the Levin sword and the S rank if you want to completely negate the drawback(a tempting offer since Trueblades have good enough magic). The Lance is basically 10.5 Mt, 85 Acc, 20 Crit Evade, +1 Def and Res, and the Axe is 12 Mt, 75 Acc, and 15 Crit. Those weapons far outweigh other weapon options on average. Hell even the S rank Bow and Kunai are amazing, and Excalibur is crazy on a witch. You don't really care about the draw back when you can just OHKO an enemy at full health for the ranged S ranks

.

Keep in mind -1 isn't unusable(in fact in campaign they are very easily useable), you are just outclassed usually when at max stats. Dread Fighter has a hard time fulfilling the niche of a mage killer when things like Ninjas, Mountain Priest, Falcon Warrior can be mage killers and provide support in many different ways.

EDIT: I just remembered, if you can tell me how you value your attack stat(Str/Mag), Skill, Speed, Luck, HP, Def, and Res. I can put in those values, and create your custom Tier list. If you tell me how you value weapon options, Range, Stat Caps, Pair Ups, and Weaknesses, I can also adjust that. I made my excel sheet be very customizable for just this case.

For reference: my weight right now is 2 Attacking Stat(Str/Mag) = 2 Spd = 3 Def = 5 Skill/Luck = 6 Res. My weight for the summation of abilities is 1x Stat Caps = 3x Range/Weapon Options = 6x Pair Up/Weakness(as in the Stat caps are the most important when read).

Brave Sword is still better because enemy phase. for example, S Rank = 18 Mt + Trueblade 30 Str = 48 Atk. A Rank = 6 Mt + 30 Str = 36x2 (plus 2 chances for skill trigger). if this then goes into enemy phase, it's now S Rank = 18 + 15 = 33 to A Rank 6+30 = 36. is stat drop penalty only triggered once? if not, if they stack, that's even worse. if they don't stack, you're weakened next Player phase because Levin sword is 11+28 = 39, 9 pts (or more because character modifiers) drop from S Rank and ofc still far below Brave during player phase. plus, it's not like you can switch to Levin sword going into enemy phase after you attacked. and meanwhile, you're pretty weak during said enemy phase, switch or not. well, looking at Atk values only is somewhat misleading so if we use average Def/Res, S Rank then switch to Levin = (48+39)-(29.5+28.5) = 29 for 2 battles so 14.5 on average. Brave = 2*(36-29.5) = 13 but 2 chances of Skill triggers which shouldn't be ignored.

as for classes, easiest to compare is Elite Ninja. Dread Fighter has more def and Str though slower. 5 Str higher vs 4 speed lower (but still average speed). plus Axes. if we're to compare the weapons, S Rank Shuriken is still weaker than Brave Sword (which Ninja can't use) and also weaker than Silver Sword. the penalty is also greater than Brave sword and the +5 Attack speed doesn't do too much when Elite Ninja are the fastest anyways. Mighty Kunai acts like Brave but also has the halving Str problem while having lower Mt than Brave sword. so if Dread Fighter can do same debuff suport with Shurikens while doing more dmg and also likely to kill with Brave swords anyways, why is Elite Ninja 1 while Dread Fighter -1? Support +1 move, even though you're rating Pair Ups as least important?

Mountain Priest is still locked into Lances only but likely more on Heal duty. Falcon has flight (but still lance only) so harder to directly compare. so Dread Fighter has competition for the niche, sure, but imo a good contender for the role.

seems you're pretty harsh on Res, ranking it below even Luck/Skill. imo, that's too harsh. if this is story mode, then caps shouldn't be taken for granted since overall it requires lots of grinding and also unnecessary since the game is beatable without it. if it's PvP, if you're going to value Str/Mag mix/swapping, you have to value Res more.

question for your weights, how are you assigning values? especially the non-stat cap ones. and I don't mean relatively, but absolutely like S rank +3 pts vs A Rank +2. how do you place them after getting an aggregate score?

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

Brave Sword is still better because enemy phase. for example, S Rank = 18 Mt + Trueblade 30 Str = 48 Atk. A Rank = 6 Mt + 30 Str = 36x2 (plus 2 chances for skill trigger). if this then goes into enemy phase, it's now S Rank = 18 + 15 = 33 to A Rank 6+30 = 36. is stat drop penalty only triggered once? if not, if they stack, that's even worse. if they don't stack, you're weakened next Player phase because Levin sword is 11+28 = 39, 9 pts (or more because character modifiers) drop from S Rank and ofc still far below Brave during player phase. plus, it's not like you can switch to Levin sword going into enemy phase after you attacked. and meanwhile, you're pretty weak during said enemy phase, switch or not. well, looking at Atk values only is somewhat misleading so if we use average Def/Res, S Rank then switch to Levin = (48+39)-(29.5+28.5) = 29 for 2 battles so 14.5 on average. Brave = 2*(36-29.5) = 13 but 2 chances of Skill triggers which shouldn't be ignored.

as for classes, easiest to compare is Elite Ninja. Dread Fighter has more def and Str though slower. 5 Str higher vs 4 speed lower (but still average speed). plus Axes. if we're to compare the weapons, S Rank Shuriken is still weaker than Brave Sword (which Ninja can't use) and also weaker than Silver Sword. the penalty is also greater than Brave sword and the +5 Attack speed doesn't do too much when Elite Ninja are the fastest anyways. Mighty Kunai acts like Brave but also has the halving Str problem while having lower Mt than Brave sword. so if Dread Fighter can do same debuff suport with Shurikens while doing more dmg and also likely to kill with Brave swords anyways, why is Elite Ninja 1 while Dread Fighter -1? Support +1 move, even though you're rating Pair Ups as least important?

Mountain Priest is still locked into Lances only but likely more on Heal duty. Falcon has flight (but still lance only) so harder to directly compare. so Dread Fighter has competition for the niche, sure, but imo a good contender for the role.

seems you're pretty harsh on Res, ranking it below even Luck/Skill. imo, that's too harsh. if this is story mode, then caps shouldn't be taken for granted since overall it requires lots of grinding and also unnecessary since the game is beatable without it. if it's PvP, if you're going to value Str/Mag mix/swapping, you have to value Res more.

question for your weights, how are you assigning values? especially the non-stat cap ones. and I don't mean relatively, but absolutely like S rank +3 pts vs A Rank +2. how do you place them after getting an aggregate score?

1) Str is only halved for the next battle, and the condition doesn't activate again. Also we need to take into account Sword Faire, Weapon Bonus, and Defense of opponent(which I will say is 30, which is pretty fair).

1st Round of Combat

S rank Katana

18+30+5+3-30=26

Brave Sword

(6+30+5+3-30)x2=28

2nd Round of Combat

S rank Katana

18+15+5+3-30=11

Brave Sword

6+30+5+3-30=14.

Total Damage

S rank Katana = 37.

Brave Sword = 42.

Now we have to take in account their secondary stats. Brave swords have -4 Def/Res, Katanas have -1 Def/Res and +1 Speed. Also, The S rank Katana has 20(!) more avoid and hitrate(95 to 75). So yes, you lose 5 damage in this exchange for using the S rank, but you have 3 more Def and Res, 1 more speed, and 20 more avoid and hitrate. That's quite a large difference and the real kicker is that the S rank Katana can go back to full power even on the enemy phase, the Brave Sword can't. The S rank is better overall by quite a bit to the point that you might as well have the S rank katana equipped as your main weapon for enemies. The brave sword should only be used as a finisher, and even then, it won't do that much more as a finisher if the enemy has sufficiently high defense.

Also, this tier list was made for PvP, not story. In story, Res is more valuable cause you will be going against mages, but it still is about the same as luck and skill, you aren't always going to use Res, in fact, the majority of time you won't use Res. You'll have at least 2 fights with physical units for every fight that Res matters. Also in story, dread fighters will work out just fine, like the majority of classes, even lower ranked stuff is perfectly useable in story. (Hell, I plan on using Sorcerer in PvP, and it's -2 by my own weighed ranking). The other thing to keep in mind is that 1 Str/Mag has to equal 1 Def AND Res. Why? Cause if you increase your Str/Mag by 1(unless you are a mixed unit, but I actually accounted for that when making the tier list), then you know you do one more damage, if you increase your defense or res by 1, then you don't know if you reduced damage by 1, only if you increase both by 1 do you know if you take one less damage for sure.

For quality based scores, I had to assign values myself, then run it through the ranking system. The only quality scores were weakness and weapon options. As we speak, I'm thinking of a way to make weapon options customizable too.

EDIT: To answer the question of the Ninja, the S rank making you double does matter a lot, it makes you double everyone from 37- instead of 32-, that's a big difference and the debuffs on the S rank actually protect the ninja on his turn more than it hurts him in a strict 1v1 situation. Also the movement is a small factor.

We obviously value weapon variety differently. I do think having multiple options is good, but you have to consume a lot of inventory just to have all the options available. Whereas a specialization can actually allow you to get the variety you need, but still have inventory leftover for other items.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

1) Str is only halved for the next battle, and the condition doesn't activate again. Also we need to take into account Sword Faire, Weapon Bonus, and Defense of opponent(which I will say is 30, which is pretty fair).

1st Round of Combat

S rank Katana

18+30+5+3-30=26

Brave Sword

(6+30+5+3-30)x2=28

2nd Round of Combat

S rank Katana

18+15+5+3-30=11

Brave Sword

6+30+5+3-30=14.

Total Damage

S rank Katana = 37.

Brave Sword = 42.

Now we have to take in account their secondary stats. Brave swords have -4 Def/Res, Katanas have -1 Def/Res and +1 Speed. Also, The S rank Katana has 20(!) more avoid. So yes, you lose 5 damage in this exchange for using the S rank, but you have 3 more Def and Res, 1 more speed, and 20 more avoid. That's quite a large difference and the real kicker is that the S rank Katana can go back to full power even on the enemy phase, the Brave Sword can't. The S rank is better overall by quite a bit to the point that you might as well have the S rank katana equipped as your main weapon for enemies. The brave sword should only be used as a finisher, and even then, it won't do that much more as a finisher if the enemy has sufficiently high defense.

Also, this tier list was made for PvP, not story. In story, Res is more valuable cause you will be going against mages, but it still is about the same as luck and skill, you aren't always going to use Res, in fact, the majority of time you won't use Res. You'll have at least 2 fights with physical units for every fight that Res matters. Also in story, dread fighters will work out just fine, like the majority of classes, even lower ranked stuff is perfectly useable in story. (Hell, I plan on using Sorcerer in PvP, and it's -2 by my own weighed ranking). The other thing to keep in mind is that 1 Str/Mag has to equal 1 Def AND Res. Why? Cause if you increase your Str/Mag by 1, then you know you do one more damage, if you increase your defense or res by 1, then you don't know if you reduced damage by 1, only if you increase both by 1 do you know if you take one less damage for sure.

For quality based scores, I had to assign values myself, then run it through the ranking system. The only quality scores were weakness and weapon options. As we speak, I'm thinking of a way to make weapon options customizable too.

EDIT: To answer the question of the Ninja, the S rank making you double does matter a lot, it makes you double everyone from 37- instead of 32-, that's a big difference and the debuffs on the S rank actually protect the ninja on his turn more than it hurts him in a strict 1v1 situation. Also the movement is a small factor.

if the S Rank penalty doesn't refresh or stack then there's no real need to ever go Levin sword then. which means S Rank sword is better dmg output as long as we run into 2 Enemy phase battles (not factor extra chances for Skill triggers) then though only by a small factor. by 3 enemy encounters, you're running the risk of death if you weren't already. but that Avoid is good, yes.

I agree Res should be worth less than Def simply because it's much less needed but imo 6 is too hard. but this is opinion so we'll leave it at that. I also understand and agree with Str/Mag > Def+Res.

for quality, I just wanted to know specifics, especially how much more are you valuing that S Rank and how much you're putting into 3 weapons.

for Ninja, 31 is already average before modifiers. it also means, however, that the enemy (namely Trueblades with +Speed modifiers and children like +8 Speed Kanna) can double as well on top of the fact that Ninja have low def lowered further by his Shuriken. the Debuff will also only affect 1 enemy so any other enemies in range will simply see a Ninja with 21 Def (you mention strictly 1v1 situation but that's not too common). S rank Swords are probably worth more than S Rank Hidden weapon imo for this reason, especially since Ninjas aren't using their Hidden weapons to be doing dmg with that cap 27 Str and 11 Mt S rank. with that in mind, a suggestion for your tier list could be to give slightly different weights to different weapons but that can get complicated since that depends on personal preferences/tactics/situations/team composition/enemy composition

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

if the S Rank penalty doesn't refresh or stack then there's no real need to ever go Levin sword then. which means S Rank sword is better dmg output as long as we run into 2 Enemy phase battles then though only by a small factor. by 3 enemy encounters, you're running the risk of death if you weren't already. but that Avoid is good, yes.

I agree Res should be worth less than Def simply because it's much less needed but imo 6 is too hard. but this is opinion so we'll leave it at that. I also understand and agree with Str/Mag > Def+Res.

for quality, I just wanted to know specifics, especially how much more are you valuing that S Rank and how much you're putting into 3 weapons.

for Ninja, 31 is already average before modifiers. it also means, however, that the enemy (namely Trueblades with +Speed modifiers and children like +8 Speed Kanna) can double as well on top of the fact that Ninja have low def lowered further by his Shuriken. the Debuff will also only affect 1 enemy so any other enemies in range will simply see a Ninja with 21 Def (you mention strictly 1v1 situation but that's not too common). S rank Swords are probably worth more than S Rank Hidden weapon imo for this reason, especially since Ninjas aren't using their Hidden weapons to be doing dmg with that cap 27 Str and 11 Mt S rank. with that in mind, a suggestion for your tier list could be to give slightly different weights to different weapons but that can get complicated since that depends on personal preferences/tactics/situations/team composition/enemy composition

The 1v1 situation is probably pretty likely in PvP seeing as it is 5v5. There is a reason to go Levin Sword, cause it has 1-2 range which has a good advantage, sometimes something has crap Res and godly defense(Great Knight and Wyvern Lord), and if you use the S rank on the enemies turn, you can use the Levin Sword on your turn without much of a downside and have higher damage output.

The S ranks are worth 4 points, and having 1 A rank and 2 B ranks is also worth 4 points, however the special bonuses for being S rank(like the +10 Avoid and +10 Crit) gave the S ranks(except Maid) an extra point(I had to put this modifer somewhere and weapons made the most sense seeing as it is an advantage for having an S rank).

EDIT: I guess I should explain that it isn't based on specific weapons, but the rank itself giving points.

Also, it's not really fair comparing a base ninja to a child Kanna or unit trueblade. Cause if the Ninja has a speed modifer than both of those situations are all for naught and the Elite Ninja will get his double anyway. Also, The Ninjas low Str/Mag is kinda deceiving in a 1v1 situation. If the Ninja gets the first strike, he lowers his opponent's offensive and defensive stats by 6, doubles, has a pretty high Might weapon to double with, gets Kunai Faire, and has 1-2 Range which means in most situations he can attack on his turn without getting hit. That S rank Hidden Weapon has higher damage ratio compared to the opponent than the S rank sword(which requires you to be close to even have the chance to attack).

EDIT: You also have to account for the fact that he'll probably only carry the S rank weapon in the equipped slot if he gets to attack first, then we can get into shenanigans of other units attacking him.

EDIT2: if you want Res to be worth more then just have a total 15 points that is divided between Defense and Res. Right now Defense has 10 points and Res has 5 points.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby