Is it too early to expect a Character Tier List?

[GoXDS]

The 1v1 situation is probably pretty likely in PvP seeing as it is 5v5. There is a reason to go Levin Sword, cause it has 1-2 range which has a good advantage, sometimes something has crap Res and godly defense(Great Knight and Wyvern Lord), and if you use the S rank on the enemies turn, you can use the Levin Sword on your turn without much of a downside and have higher damage output.

The S ranks are worth 4 points, and having 1 A rank and 2 B ranks is also worth 4 points, however the special bonuses for being S rank(like the +10 Avoid and +10 Crit) gave the S ranks(except Maid) an extra point(I had to put this modifer somewhere and weapons made the most sense seeing as it is an advantage for having an S rank).

EDIT: I guess I should explain that it isn't based on specific weapons, but the rank itself giving points.

Also, it's not really fair comparing a base ninja to a child Kanna or unit trueblade. Cause if the Ninja has a speed modifer than both of those situations are all for naught and the Elite Ninja will get his double anyway. Also, The Ninjas low Str/Mag is kinda deceiving in a 1v1 situation. If the Ninja gets the first strike, he lowers his opponent's offensive and defensive stats by 6, doubles, has a pretty high Might weapon to double with, gets Kunai Faire, and has 1-2 Range which means in most situations he can attack on his turn without getting hit. That S rank Hidden Weapon has higher damage ratio compared to the opponent than the S rank sword(which requires you to be close to even have the chance to attack).

EDIT: You also have to account for the fact that he'll probably only carry the S rank weapon in the equipped slot if he gets to attack first, then we can get into shenanigans of other units attacking him.

EDIT2: if you want Res to be worth more then just have a total 15 points that is divided between Defense and Res. Right now Defense has 10 points and Res has 5 points.

oh, PvP is only 5v5? yea, that changes things. though Streetpass battles are another case. what I meant by not needing to switch was for regular case (average defenses). since switching Levin means you'll enter Enemy phase with Levin as well (which is another case to consider). using Levin against high defense goes doubly for Brave swords as well anways.

the weapon types weighting was just a suggestion (albiet probably impractical)

I think it's fair to consider child units though I guess Gen 2 vs Gen 1 isn't. even so, most children won't have their modifiers pumped into Speed (though this probably also means this is less of an issue for the Ninja then). but take +Spd White Blood Kamui (Dark Blood has even higher Speed). with Ultimate Yato, that's 38 Speed. the ninja needs at least +2 Speed modifier. and Kamui should definitely be considered (though White Blood would either not be able to counter at range or not be able to double regardless. Dark Blood though should be able to double all Gen I with tomes with 40 speed though that's Magic...).

and (while I did consider it), debuffs are applied mid battle, not only applied after the battle?

EDIT: so that bonus pts for Shuriken's S Rank brought Elite Ninja to 1 even though lower Def? the Str and Speed roughly cancel out (slightly in favor of Dread Fighter because +5 -4)

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

oh, PvP is only 5v5? yea, that changes things. though Streetpass battles are another case. what I meant by not needing to switch was for regular case (average defenses). since switching Levin means you'll enter Enemy phase with Levin as well (which is another case to consider). using Levin against high defense goes doubly for Brave swords as well anways.

the weapon types weighting was just a suggestion (albiet probably impractical)

I think it's fair to consider child units though I guess Gen 2 vs Gen 1 isn't. even so, most children won't have their modifiers pumped into Speed (though this probably also means this is less of an issue for the Ninja then). but take +Spd White Blood Kamui (Dark Blood has even higher Speed). with Ultimate Yato, that's 38 Speed. the ninja needs at least +2 Speed modifier. and Kamui should definitely be considered (though White Blood would either not be able to counter at range or not be able to double regardless. Dark Blood though should be able to double all Gen I with tomes with 40 speed).

and (while I did consider it), debuffs are applied mid battle, not only applied after the battle?

Also, Levin Sword vs. Brave Sword isn't that cut and dry. Levin Sword can attack from 2 away, has higher Mt, and uses Magic. Being able to attack from 1-2 away means you can attack a blindspot if there is one, which basically makes the Levin sword a 2 for 1 combat wise like the Brave Sword(actually exactly like the Brave Sword). Also the Brave Sword is much worse against high defense, and the levin sword is much better(if they have bad/average Res that is).

I rigged by data so it accounts for all possible situations where using a magic stat is preferable to a strength stat, so that the total "attacking" stat is the value used instead of just Str or Mag. In most cases it's just Str or Mag, but for those who have a difference of 4 or less between their Str/Mag, the boost to offense was noticeable(basically a .5 boost or more in Str/Mag).

It's fair to consider Gen 2, but you can't really say it's fair to compare without considering what the ninja could also do. The problem with using Kamui as a standard is that I could say I use Elite Ninja Kamui with Ultimate Yato attached. Then I get all the same boosts. Like it's hard to say a class is less worthwhile cause a UNIT can do this or that. Cause then you can turn it on its head and say the class that had the advantage in the first place could do that same thing by being the same unit.

Hidden Weapon debuffs stay around for one whole turn. Which actually means one player phase and one enemy phase, but the debuffs activate at end of battle. If the ninja attacks first, then he attacked at range, did damage, then the opponent is debuffed on his phase.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

It's fair to consider Gen 2, but you can't really say it's fair to compare without considering what the ninja could also do. The problem with using Kamui as a standard is that I could say I use Elite Ninja Kamui with Ultimate Yato attached. Then I get all the same boosts. Like it's hard to say a class is less worthwhile cause a UNIT can do this or that. Cause then you can turn it on its head and say the class that had the advantage in the first place could do that same thing by being the same unit.

I brought up Kamui simply because he WILL be on every team. but these are all what ifs and can just be countered by what ifs so we'll leave it at this.

[Psyruby]

I plan on banning Ultimate Yato anyway. xD I've heard the PvP allows customizable rules which makes me excited cause I don't think requiring Kamui on every team just cause he has these stupidly OP weapons is such a fun idea.

[GoXDS]

most people will still probably use him because so easy to get skills on him plus total modifiers are +4 (and max in 1 skill of +4 versus +3 compared to other Gen 1 at +0~+1 and Children at ~+9. plus it's the Avatar =P

Edited August 4, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

most people will still probably use him because so easy to get skills on him plus total modifiers are +4 (and max in 1 skill of +4 versus +3 compared to other Gen 1 at +0~+1 and Children at ~+9. plus it's the Avatar =P

Oh people can use him and abuse those aspects about him, but no, they are not getting a weapon that gives +4 to all the important stats and has crazy high Mt and Acc with no downside. I don't even care that he is dragon. No. Bad Avatar.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Psyruby

[gayserbeam]

Oh people can use him and abuse those aspects about him, but no, they are not getting a weapon that gives +4 to all the important stats and has crazy high Mt and Acc with no downside. I don't even care that he is dragon. No. Bad Avatar.

Yes, but everyone has one, there is only one, and you get it in normal gameplay. There is no advantage or imbalance to using it, as everyone can and probably will.

Even if you get a second Einherjar Kamui, you still only have one Yato.

[NinjaMonkey]

Talking about postgame, that is.

What postgame? There isn't one.

[Psyruby]

Yes, but everyone has one, there is only one, and you get it in normal gameplay. There is no advantage or imbalance to using it, as everyone can and probably will.

Even if you get a second Einherjar Kamui, you still only have one Yato.

This is sort of how you distinguish if something is healthy for a meta, not whether it is balanced because each player has access to it. If everyone is going to use Kamui because he is clearly the best unit in the game so much that you need specific builds to beat him wih a reasonable amount of effort, then Kamui(or more properly Ultimate Yato) is overcentralizing the metagame.

[gayserbeam]

This is sort of how you distinguish if something is healthy for a meta, not whether it is balanced because each player has access to it. If everyone is going to use Kamui because he is clearly the best unit in the game so much that you need specific builds to beat him wih a reasonable amount of effort, then Kamui(or more properly Ultimate Yato) is overcentralizing the metagame.

That mentality applies in something like Pokémon, where you have seven hundred choices of Pokémon to raise, and none or mandatory to find or capture or use. Kamui is a unit you must use and have and raise, and the Yato is an item you must have and acquire. So everyone has and can use their Kamui.

No specific strategy is required to use the Yato, so it allows for a diversity of classes and doesn't centralize the metagame around a certain setup for Kamui.

It also doesn't centralize the metagame around a certain counter-strategy, either, since there is no single specific counter strategy for Yato that would force you to completely work your team around fighting it or discourage the use of certain units. A single unit with +4 in a few stats can definately be managed. Especially since every single player can give the Yato to their Kamui and equalize the playing field.

If someone decides they don't want to use Kamui on their team, when Kamui is an incredible unit they were forced to raise anyways, then that is their decision and intentional self-handicap.

If Yato is banned, everyone will have a team of units with diverse abilities, one of the units being Kamui. If Yato is allowed, everyone will have a team of units with diverse abilities, one of the units being Kamui with a +4 stat boost. That stat boost is enough to influence people to stick an item they already have into the inventory of a unit they already use, but not enough to completely focus the metagame around a single strategy.

Edited August 5, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Psyruby]

That mentality applies in something like Pokémon, where you have seven hundred choices of Pokémon to raise, and none or mandatory to find or capture or use. Kamui is a unit you must use and have and raise, and the Yato is an item you must have and acquire. So everyone has and can use their Kamui.

No specific strategy is required to use the Yato, so it allows for a diversity of classes and doesn't centralize the metagame around a certain setup for Kamui.

It also doesn't centralize the metagame around a certain counter-strategy, either, since there is no single specific counter strategy for Yato that would force you to completely work your team around fighting it or discourage the use of certain units. A strategy other than, perhaps, simply bringing your own Kamui with Yato to battle.

If someone decides they don't want to use Kamui on their team, when Kamui is an incredible unit they were forced to raise anyways, then that is their decision and intentional self-handicap.

It does not matter the availability of said item and character. It does over-centralize the meta game, you must use Kamui with Ultimate Yato to have a fair chance against the opposing team with said unit. That's taking a choice away from the player. Just by eliminating Ultimate Yato from the equation options become available that weren't possible before, because no one in their right mind wouldn't use Kamui with Ultimate Yato.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Psyruby

[CocoaGalaxy]

I wouldn't really wanna say this here, but if you would make decisions based on that, then things like, Raijin Katana, Fuujin Bow, Siegfried, Brunhilde, Amiibo weapons, etc, the list goes on, would also be "banned" which would start to get more and more silly.

Shenangans.

Character Tiers would probably be more important earlygame, though even then, it's debatable. One of the "better" things is how the game is more balanced, though.....not as much as you would like it to be, maybe the developers were having some different idea or they just felt that it would be better this way.

PVP wise, I dunno so much....

One minor thing I'd like to point out is that Kamui is a Dragon, which may or may not "balance" the issue. Blah

Edited August 5, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Psyruby]

I wouldn't really wanna say this here, but if you would make decisions based on that, then things like, Raijin Katana, Fuujin Bow, Siegfried, Brunhilde, Amiibo weapons, etc, the list goes on, would also be "banned" which would start to get more and more silly.

Shenangans.

Character Tiers would probably be more important earlygame, though even then, it's debatable. One of the "better" things is how the game is more balanced, though.....not as much as you would like it to be, maybe the developers were having some different idea or they just felt that it would be better this way.

PVP wise, I dunno so much....

One minor thing I'd like to point out is that Kamui is a Dragon, which may or may not "balance" the issue. Blah

Okay, so this is sort of weird to say, but the other named weapons are about the same power as an S rank weapon. Ultimate Yato is more than twice as good as an S rank weapon. It goes so far beyond the other named weapons. And I actually liked named weapons, they are "S" rank weapons to encourage you to use the first generation characters to balance the fact that they are weaker stat wise than the second generation(ignoring Ophelia's tome, but it actually isn't that strong compared to the other named ones). It's an exciting bit of balance even if unintentional.

Also, yes I did consider the fact that Kamui is a dragon, but it's like painting a target on a unit's back if you only have one wyrmslayer/Dragon God Spell.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Psyruby

[gayserbeam]

It does not matter the availability of said item and character. It does over-centralize the meta game, you must use Kamui with Ultimate Yato to have a fair chance against the opposing team with said unit. That's taking a choice away from the player. Just by eliminating Ultimate Yato from the equation options become available that weren't possible before, because no one in their right mind wouldn't use Kamui with Ultimate Yato.

Yes, just like nobody would use a team full of just Falcoknights, or remove Dragon Fang, or go into battle without skills. When everyone can and probably is using Kamui, and Kamui can be nearly any class and doesn't even have to equip Yato to get the boost, then it is an obvious choice that doesn't severly limit the choices and freedoms of the player. And the boost is not nearly severe enough that the minority players who decide they don't want to use Kamui have no chance at winning.

[Psyruby]

Yes, just like nobody would use a team full of just Falcoknights, or remove Dragon Fang, or go into battle without skills. When everyone can and probably is using Kamui, and Kamui can be nearly any class and doesn't even have to equip Yato to get the boost, then it is an obvious choice that doesn't severly limit the choices and freedoms of the player. And the boost is not nearly severe enough that the minority players who decide they don't want to use Kamui have no chance at winning.

That eliminates a lot of things in a 5v5. A character is already chosen for you, an inventory is already chosen for you, you are going to have to wield swords, because there is absolutely no reason not to have swords. The Yato even not considering the boost is far better than even the S rank sword. You are just hurting yourself by not making that choice. Also, the person who decides to not use Kamui will have to come up with specific strategies to deal with the character everyone else will use that is better than every other unit. Otherwise, if you don't have a way to quickly deal with him, you will be losing a unit every turn just from Kamui alone.

[GoXDS]

a semi-minor point but banning Ultimate Yato also removes the favoritism towards IK (and thus not biased against players that don't want to buy a $20 DLC). granted, the difference between Ultimate Yato vs Nohr/Hoshido Yato isn't too great, it exists. yes, most people that are seriously considering PvP will use IK route. but hence semi-minor point.

[Ownagepuffs]

What is this tier list even based off of?

LTC is usually the basis we go off of for FE tier lists.

Not strictly LTC, otherwise you get some crazy shit like Canas being a top 3 unit in FE7 and Shanna becomes the best unit in FE6.

Faster pace, yes, but not LTC.

[Psyruby]

Not strictly LTC, otherwise you get some crazy shit like Canas being a top 3 unit in FE7 and Shanna becomes the best unit in FE6.

Faster pace, yes, but not LTC.

Yeah, the only reason the Berserker is probably the best unit by my tier list is cause he is LTC but his massive HP helps stabilize the character. A good example of a unit being hurt by their non offensive stats is the witch. The witch is still a good unit, but she has no skill, luck, defense, and even mediocre HP and resistance. She sacrificed everything for her Magic and Speed.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Psyruby

[CocoaGalaxy]

Well...

Forged weapons seem to be "superior in every aspect" anyway, it's just too good. Raijin Katana/Siegfried still have their points for being 1-2 Ranged I guess..

Edited August 7, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Psyruby]

Well...

Forged weapons seem to be "superior in every aspect" anyway, it's just too good. Raijin Katana/Siegfried still have their points for being 1-2 Ranged I guess..

I'm not sure how forged weapons and PvP will interact. If they are allowed, then Iron, Silver, and Reverse Weapons(maybe Magic Weapon or double attack +3 Weapons if you are into that kind of thing) will be all that is needed. If you can ban them, well.... I'm slightly ban happy, but it's just cause I don't want "OHKO the game" to happen, and it allows for more unique options in my opinion.

All you need is +20 to become OHKO the game, and forged weapons + Aggressor + any faire or prescient victory is getting awful close to that threshold. And Forged Weapons cause the biggest problem among those.

[CocoaGalaxy]

There's also the whole thing about statues raising the stat caps.

To be honest I'm more concerned about ingame rather than endgame, but it sounds rather ridiculous to me.

Honestly I dunno, it could become a RPS strategy, a prisoner's dilemma-ish kind of strategy, or the plain everyone uses the same strategy.

Or a stalemate possibly. Or just the simple "who goes first wins"

Edited August 7, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Psyruby]

There's also the whole thing about statues raising the stat caps.

To be honest I'm more concerned about ingame rather than endgame, but it sounds rather ridiculous to me.

Honestly I dunno, it could because a RPS strategy, a prisoner's dilemma-ish kind of strategy, or the plain everyone uses the same strategy.

Or a stalemate possibly. Or just the simple "who goes first wins"

I feel as if the development team has someway to eliminate the statues from multiplayer. They figured out how to reduce all character stats to 20/20, it would seem weird to slip on reducing the statue buffs to nothing too.