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FE Fates =2nd FE Zelda 2

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Okay, while FE Gaiden holds the spot as the first Zelda 2 for FE, I'm willing to bet FE Fates could be called the second one.

First, by Zelda 2, I still mean good game, but that it will always be considered a black sheep when compared to its predecessor unless you share my opinion about FE Gaiden due to unusual design choices and fixing problems that weren't broken in the first place. See weapon durability and the weapon triangle, hot springs, and FE Amie

It's no secret to say FE Awakening revived the series, and just like in Zelda 2, the decision for the sequel was to change the formula completely. We now have paid route splits, a completely revamped weapon triangle, and new weapon mechanics overall.

Also of note, a large majority of mechanics seem to be taken from FE Gaiden the first FE Zelda 2 and improved upon see My Castle and weapon system. In conclusion, FE Fates is FE's second Zelda 2.

Edited by MCProductions

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I'm a little confused. Fates is the black sheep compared to its predecessor? You mean Awakening? Awakening was heavily criticized and several of its negatives were made worse (gimmicky characters, fanservice, children/marriage, lackluster story) for Fates. Awakening was hardly the gold standard for what Fire Emblem is all about.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Awakening was really only criticized in the existing fanbase. I haven't played Fates yet so I'm just going off from gameplay mechanics I've read about, but Awakening sold very well and I find it interesting that in a series that's played pretty much the same since Mystery and Genealogy that IS would change the gameplay this much RIGHT after their first major success with the series in quite a while. I wouldn't personally say Awakening is what FE's all about,that's what FE7's for, but a follow up to a game that literally saved this series changing this much reminded me a lot of Zelda 2.

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I'm not sure what you mean by Awakening only being criticized by the current fanbase. Its story was so heavily panned that IS went out of their way to promote their new writer (not that it helped, unfortunately).

The point that contradicts your post is that all the things that made Awakening popular (shipping, goofy characters, avatar focused, fanservice) are also in Fates. Fates isn't a different path than Awakening; it's everything Awakening was cranked up to eleven. So what is different? Mostly the gameplay mechanics which are a net-improvement. Opinions may vary on the new weapon triangle or removal of durability but pair-up was definitely made more strategic and less broken.

I think a better comparison is Final Fantasy, OP. Awakening being the "Final Fantasy VII" of the series.

I can't imagine Awakening having the lasting popularity of FF7.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Having finished Hoshido and Nohr as well as over half the third path, from a pure gameplay perspective I'd say this is the best Fire Emblem game ever. Yes, the weapon durability is gone and the weapon triangle is different: different does not necessarily mean bad. In this case, it works pretty darn well and I found myself constantly using a huge variety of weapons for the majority of my characters. No, weapon usage is not a factor any more, but weapon selection is more strategic each turn than ever due to the big drawbacks on all advanced weapons.

There's also an host of good changes, such as the exp system being the best in the series by far, pair up/supports working in a much better way...

It's different, but unlike Zelda 2 I'd say its changes for the best.

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Yeah there's a slew of improvements. I'd say Awakening and Fates have both expanded FE gameplay more than any other FE games in the past 15 years, despite issues in other areas.

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You know, I honestly only ever hear FE Awakening bashed in any way here, and by youtube commenters I've also seen on here. I think I've only watched one review of Awakening that complained about the plot. Heck, two reviews I watched liked the plot.

I personally enjoy Zelda 2 myself, so I wasn't insulting the game when I made the thread. I made this thread since I found it weird they would change the formula so soon, tho I feel the changes sound cool, and Zelda 2 was the closest to it I could think of.

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I can't imagine Awakening having the lasting popularity of FF7.

Fire Emblem will likely never be as popular as Final Fantasy, but if you want to compare a previous game franchise being largely niche for a long time and then finally breaking out, that comparison is far more apt than say, Zelda. (because Zelda was never niche. Zelda was always very much mainstream. Take it from someone who's seen it since the beginning.) Also, that happens to be your opinion, considering how you cannot seem to see this matter in any objective fashion whatsoever. FE13 is immensely popular for a Fire Emblem game. MCProductions is correct in saying that the majority of negativity about that game is largely contained here on this forum. On other parts of social media, the game is looked at in a rather positive light. Metacritic gives the game a 92. IGN gives it a 9.6

So much for "universally panned."

You know, I honestly only ever hear FE Awakening bashed in any way here, and by youtube commenters I've also seen on here. I think I've only watched one review of Awakening that complained about the plot. Heck, two reviews I watched liked the plot.

I personally enjoy Zelda 2 myself, so I wasn't insulting the game when I made the thread. I made this thread since I found it weird they would change the formula so soon, tho I feel the changes sound cool, and Zelda 2 was the closest to it I could think of.

Thing is, Fates doesnt seem to be really changing too much in the core gameplay from Awakening. Like, we still have PairUp, supports, etc. The only thing noticeable right off the bat is weapon durability. And the balance they applied to that manages to work. My Castle, the split routes, yeah those are hella different and will likely throw people not following the game, for a loop. But im not sure if its Zelda 2 caliber changes. That shit...was HELLA different lmao! All the sudden, Link is all jumping on command and side scrolling action and wheres the puzzles? Yeah. I think a Zelda comparison that would work is OoT to Majora's Mask. Using the same engine, but so vastly different in detail. (time system, saves, etc)

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Fair enough about my comparison screw up. MM is a better comparison than zelda 2, it just came to my mind first since I've been playing my nes and snes alot lately due to getting a repro cart of FE3 and Zelda 1's original cartridge at around the same time, so yeah I screwed up on the comparison.

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Of the fundamental changes to FE gameplay since Thracia, the biggest was Awakening adding the Pair Up / Dual Support system and the second biggest was Fates revising it to Attack Stance / Guard Stance.

Even though it's just a revision, it's still bigger than anything from the seven FE games before these two. It changes the way battles work to something fundamentally unlike anything ever before, even in Awakening.

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Fire Emblem will likely never be as popular as Final Fantasy, but if you want to compare a previous game franchise being largely niche for a long time and then finally breaking out, that comparison is far more apt than say, Zelda. (because Zelda was never niche. Zelda was always very much mainstream. Take it from someone who's seen it since the beginning.) Also, that happens to be your opinion, considering how you cannot seem to see this matter in any objective fashion whatsoever. FE13 is immensely popular for a Fire Emblem game. MCProductions is correct in saying that the majority of negativity about that game is largely contained here on this forum. On other parts of social media, the game is looked at in a rather positive light. Metacritic gives the game a 92. IGN gives it a 9.6

So much for "universally panned."

I didn't say "universally panned", I said that the story was heavily panned, so much that that even the developers acknowledged it. Awakening is popular because it panders to a larger demographic than previous titles. What I doubt is Awakening having lasting popularity like FF7 because, while popular, it doesn't have a cast, story or game mechanics that will make it stand out. Awakening marks the start of a new direction for the series (ie Waifu Emblem) but it doesn't have the merits to be considered iconic or a classic. Although getting into Smash might having a longer lasting effect than the game itself.

But that's like, just my opinion, man. Feel free to disagree.

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Zelda 2 was the black sheep because it was an entirely different genre from Zelda and the next five games after it.

Moreover, it only stands out because the series returned to the Zelda 1 style after Zelda 2. Ocarina of Time was similarly a departure from the conventions of its predecessors (mostly because of the perspective and presentation) but it cannot be considered a "black sheep" because its style and gameplay returned in later installments of the Zelda series.

Since no Fire Emblem game has significantly changed view perspective or genre to the extent of Zelda 2, there is simply no Zelda 2 in the Fire Emblem series. The two series simply aren't comparable, mostly because Fire Emblem is a series that has consistently adhered to its established conventions and has re-used its assets and game engines on almost every platform at least once.

Even if Fates was different enough from its predecessors, there have been no games since, so we can't assume it will be unique. Zelda has gone 28 years without another side-scrolling action RPG, but Fire Emblem could potentially continue using the comparatively insignificant changes to the formula that were started in Fates.

Edited by gayserbeam

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I take your Zelda Example and I raise you a Metroid one.

Gaiden = Metroid 2. Both are experimental games from the late 80s, early nineties that took certain aspects of the prior installment and mixed with a sizeable amount of changes to a... mixed response from audiences.

Mystery of the Emblem= Super Metroid: An improvement on the concepts of the first installment that stays close to the events yetevolves as necessary.

Awakening=Metroid Other M: Both are games that are controversial within their respective fanbases, both put greater focus on aspects that were lesser in other installments, both were designed to expand their fanbases via new audiences yet both feature throwbacks to the classic formula to attempt to please the old fans too. Opinions on these games are heavily mixed in the fanbase

Fates=Federation Force: Base Breaking Games with some old fans upset at the full lack of return to the older style. Both have spawned numerous petitions and debates in favor or against aspects of the game to the release of the game itself. Difference is, many people don't outright hate Fates while it seems some Metroid fans do.

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Awakening=Metroid Other M

Fates=Federation Force

don't you dare compare quality FE games to that filth

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I take your Zelda Example and I raise you a Metroid one.

Gaiden = Metroid 2. Both are experimental games from the late 80s, early nineties that took certain aspects of the prior installment and mixed with a sizeable amount of changes to a... mixed response from audiences.

Mystery of the Emblem= Super Metroid: An improvement on the concepts of the first installment that stays close to the events yetevolves as necessary.

Awakening=Metroid Other M: Both are games that are controversial within their respective fanbases, both put greater focus on aspects that were lesser in other installments, both were designed to expand their fanbases via new audiences yet both feature throwbacks to the classic formula to attempt to please the old fans too. Opinions on these games are heavily mixed in the fanbase

Fates=Federation Force: Base Breaking Games with some old fans upset at the full lack of return to the older style. Both have spawned numerous petitions and debates in favor or against aspects of the game to the release of the game itself. Difference is, many people don't outright hate Fates while it seems some Metroid fans do.

I...don't know if those last 2 are fairly accurate.

Awakening was still a Strategy RPG. Other M was basically an action game compared to the more Zelda-like adventure the series had in other games.

Awakening is generally perceived as a fantastic game. The only time you'll ever really see some people complaining is just the minority on game boards. Conversely, Other M is hated almost everywhere.

And Fates seems to have far more acclaim than Federation Force. Again, Fates still plays like a typical FE game with a few differences. Federation Force isn't even close to a typical Metroid game.

Oh, and I'm saying this as someone who actually likes Other M. One of my favorite Wii games as a matter of fact.

Edited by Sentinel07

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Yeah I'll give you that FE and Metroid have similar beginnings in how they do something different for the second game and then go back to basics for the third, but even that seems rather off since Metroid II is one of the Metroid games that sticks closest to its original formula while out of all the FE games, FE2 is one of just two that dramatically deviates from the formula, and more so than FE4. In contrast, Metroid has its sidescroller formula, its very different first-person formula, the game-that-shall-not-be-named that doesn't fit into either of them, and then Federation Force which is associated with the mechanical structure of the first-person games but changes up so many things that have been constant even among all the other games. Even aside from the quality concerns, their relation to the rest of the series is something FE just doesn't have any parallels to.

Edited by Othin

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I do think Majora's Mask is probably the better comparison, as already mentioned. Awakening is the FE's Ocarina of Time: it was the most critically acclaimed game of the series and hit the highest sales figures in a series whose previous best-selling game (Zelda 1, or FE3/7... not sure which it is worldwide) was by that point a distant memory. Both games had some complaints from hardcore fans of the series but were loved by most and brought many new players into the series' fanbase. So by that token, Fates is logically the Majora's Mask: a game for the same system as the previous, with a bold premise (the time cycling of MM, the choice/split routes of Fates) and many mechanical changes despite using the same core engine. Fortunately, Fates isn't being released in the dying days of the N64, so hopefully it'll be a bit more successful. :)

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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To clarify for DHE, FE7 had the best sales internationally till Awakening, but FE3 has the highest sales in just Japan till Awakening then Fates beat Awakening in Japan only sales.

I definitely picked the wrong Zelda for the comparison tho. Majora's Mask is definitely the better comparison now that I think about it.

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