Phoenix Mode

[tacticianwhite]

...well, to be honest... at first, even someone like me (read: someone who played Casual in Awakening) at first found the idea of Phoenix Mode a bit silly, like it'd make the games too easy.

But nowadays, I don't really care. I mean, I'm still probably going to go Casual again for Fates (for Nohr, at least), but I can't see myself touching Phoenix Mode.

I mean, I'm not going to yell at anyone who WILL use it or anything. If they want to use it, fine.

[Othin]

duh, silly, that's why classic is a mode!!! :))) and with the addition of phoenix mode, people who are having trouble can do it!!! nobody is excluded:)

Ahh, my habit of not quoting what I'm responding to bites me in the ass again.

I personally don't see anything bad about Phoenix mode as long as it is not dependent to clear certain chapters. The moment that game design makes it nigh impossible or based on RNG luck as the determining factor, the developers have monumentally fucked up. The key point is that no map should ever be made with Phoenix mode in mind, otherwise it shits all over Fire Emblem's history.

On that note, I remember getting Blazing Sword after seeing the FE7 commercial back in 2003, I was 9 years old. I remember looking at the back of the box, seeing Hector in the middle of his attack and thinking, "Wow!, Hector's a sorcerer, cool!." and then by Victory or Death, barely having less than 10 characters up to par, everything else was dead or underleveled. Eliwood was total shit because I never leveled him before his autopromotion. Needless to say, I was a colossal idiot, now if Phoenix mode was present back then, I would have been more interested in playing the game, at that point it got too hard and then I lost the game along with my SP. I only managed to beat the game because my friend let me borrow his after I got him into the series.

Tldr, Phoenix mode is a wonderful addition for young newcomers into the series, looking back now, all the games from 7 and onwards are relatively beatable without much frustration on Hard, but as a young kid with no experience with rpgs, I can see how difficult it was to get into fire emblem. Honestly, the mage, pegasus, cleric and cavalier all at once fascinated my young mind and was partially why I stuck with the series at such a young age.

[Chrosion]

Not something I'll be using personally but, hey, why not? I voted good since this'll expand the fanbase, people will be able to start out using Phoenix and advance to Casual or even Classic. It also allows younger players to get into the series.

[Soapbar]

I could see it as a reward for finishing the game on Lunatic+ or something, but not as something to "get people used to the game" or to "expand the fan base" because anything that allows you to basically run through the game without thinking and throw yourself at problems without thinking isn't easing you into anything, it's basically just allowing you to dick around infinitely/support grind. Anybody who is new to series and starts with Phoenix Mode will still most likely get destroyed when they move to Casual/Classic.

And Casual Mode still lets you enjoy the game without losing your characters, so really, I don't see how it's expanding the fan base when Casual mode did that and still kept the series true to it's own genre. Fire Emblem is a SRPG and marketed as such; I see no reason why anybody looking for a STRATEGY title would be interested in a mode where there is no strategy at all.

Then again I'm from that (apperently now) awkward section of gaming where I think games should work you for your rewards, so whatevs

[MCProductions]

I'm just going to defend Phoenix mode with a confession of mine.

Mass Effect 3 practically had a movie mode. ME3 was my first entry in the series, so I played it on that mode. I later played the others, and still loved the games as much even tho the movie mode wasn't there. I imagine Phoenix mode will do the same thing for some people that ME3's movie mode did for me.

[cloudropis]

I really fail to see how this game could be good for "younger players".

[MCProductions]

^Them censors bro.

Seriously, Nintendo of America will NEVER publish a title rated above T for Teen, and I like it that way.

Edited July 28, 2015 by MCProductions

[PuffPuff]

I'm going to vote bad.

I can stand behind casual as a less punishing version of classic. New players less adept at strategy or perhaps just people who want a less focused experience can enjoy casual and learn how the game is played. There is no learning in phoenix mode and you aren't encouraged to put in the effort to engage in the genre. It reaches the point where you aren't playing the game. There aren't even any special rewards for playing higher difficulties.

So what is the point if not gameplay? Here's where my argument becomes controversial. Some people will praise the feature as widening the audience but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. When you take away the gameplay what you are left with is the story and side features. Story is a fine subject to discuss (granted, we haven't had a good story in a long time) so I'll leave that aside. The side features, that have become an increasingly large part of the draw since Awakening is where I put my foot down. Fan service, shipping, gimmicky characters and player worship are okay in moderation but Fates doesn't know the meaning of the word. They're going for mass appeal (further facilitated by Phoenix mode) and this is something that affects everybody. When an alarming number of fans are playing the game primarily for these side features, the priorities of the developers changes to accommodate them. People can say "Fire Emblem is all about shipping and fanservice!" and their opinion will be just as valid as someone who says it's about strategy.

Mind you, the gameplay in Fates is still solid but I'm still embarrassed to recommend the game because of its other "features".

Even though this is one of the reasons why that this series lives on. The series would be boring if male/females weren't handsome and cute.

Nohr has no grinding allowed without buying dlc. I'd say it was added so people wouldn't have to restart the entire game because they didn't level or use the right units.

...or if they got badly screwed.

Isn't Fates likely to be rated M though given the CERO 15 rating, and some of the... recent discoveries.

Seriously, Nintendo of America will NEVER publish a title rated above T for Teen, and I like it that way.

-----

I'll try the mode to turn this into Final Fantasy. :)

...And to get a better understanding of the new mechanics. Even so, I still won't carelessly charge like a fool. I still will strategize. Understanding these mechanics along with who dies and who lives on (Paths you take) come first before even attempting the harder difficulties.

It will suck if NOA edits anything.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Princess_Florina

[Soapbar]

And to get a better understanding of the new mechanics. Even so, I still won't carelessly charge like a fool. I still will strategize. Understanding these mechanics along with who dies and who lives on (Paths you take) come first before even attempting the harder difficulties.

And you'll be in the very small minority. The rest of the players who start with Phoenix mode will quickly realize that death carries no weight in that mode and take up 40k Imperial Guard Tactics

[PuffPuff]

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/14/fire-emblem-if-developers-on-why-they-added-the-easier-phoenix-mode/

Developer Sato's word

This mode was proven to bring a bigger audience and to make it playable for everybody. The series nearly died because people were getting scared of perma death and that the games were not for everybody. But...if playing Phoenix...I'd use it for only a couple chapters to understand the mechancs before I start another new game on Classic Normal. As for Lunatic...probably won't touch it for years.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Princess_Florina

[Soapbar]

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/14/fire-emblem-if-developers-on-why-they-added-the-easier-phoenix-mode/

This mode was proven to bring a bigger audience and to make it playable for everybody.

That article proves jack shit. It only explains why it was put in the game, it did not provide any statistics saying that Phoenix Mode is drawing new players.

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/14/fire-emblem-if-developers-on-why-they-added-the-easier-phoenix-mode/

Developer Sato's word

The series nearly died because people were getting scared of perma death and that the games were not for everybody.

The series nearly died for numerous reasons other than that and I'm not going into the fact that Awakening's sales requirement was met by every other game in the series bar 3 titles. Even if this was the sole reason though, Casual Mode already removed most peoples fears so Phoenix mode is horribly redundant at best.

Also, "The games were not for everybody" No game is "for everybody". A game that is "for everybody" is a game that focuses on nothing.

But...if playing Phoenix...I'd use it for only a couple chapters to understand the mechancs before I start another new game on Classic Normal. As for Lunatic...probably won't touch it for years.

You'll do that, but you're a veteran, you're not the target audience of this mode. This mode is meant to draw in newer players who haven't played an SRPG in their life, and judging from the strategy it encourages, have no interest in Strategy RPG's in the first place

[Great Geargia Gateway]

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/14/fire-emblem-if-developers-on-why-they-added-the-easier-phoenix-mode/

This mode was proven to bring a bigger audience and to make it playable for everybody. The series nearly died because people were getting scared of perma death and that the games were not for everybody. But...if playing Phoenix...I'd use it for only a couple chapters to understand the mechancs before I start another new game on Classic Normal. As for Lunatic...probably won't touch it for years.

But in reality, it's because they didn't advertise it enough and people weren't willing to put the effort in to play FE. Awakening only sold so high because the 1st thing I said and good timing. Of course every game won't be for every1. Dark Souls is hard and the only way to become good is to put the time and effort. The series was never going to die to begin with.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Soapbar]

I'd also like to add that I'm not bothered by Phoenix because it affects my Gameplay Experience; it obviously doesn't. I'm bothered by it because from my first impressions it seems completely redundant and ineffective at what it's supposed to do, as well as going against the very genre that FE is in by being absolutely mindless

[Shadow Knight]

Meh, I don't really see the point of it exactly with casual mode. But it's optional and it does have the potential to draw more ppl into the fanbase so why not. As long as it stays in the corner while I brave the new waters on hard classic and eventually lunatic then what the hell. We're all fire emblem fans in the end

[Spud]

I had an account here several years ago, but fell into lurking and now couldn't even tell you what email/screenname I would have used in high school. But I decided it was worth reregging to put my two cents in here, and try to explain why I have a problem with phoenix mode, because no one on the positive side has addressed my problems with it.

1) Unlike what several other posters have said, I do not think that phoenix will expand the audience for fire emblem. Literally 0 change. Let's try to think about who exactly it would attract?

The biggest one I've seen here is the claim that it would attract a younger audience. I question how you come to that conclusion. I was in 7th grade when FE7 came out and I fell in love with it, and several others on here have had stories of being introduced to FE in the 12-14 year old range. Given some of the material in these games, do you really want kids any younger playing it? Regarding the argument that it was put in to supplant for a lack of grinding, that's not even a normal feature; off the top of my head the only recent FEs to have the ability to grind are FE8 and FE13. I'm going back to what I said earlier, as a middle schooler I could beat FE7 and there certainly wasn't an easy way to grind there. It certainly wasn't optimal and people died along the way, but I did it.

There is a point that one could very easily make in that several people simply don't want to worry about permadeath, especially if they are new or not particularly good at the genre. While that isn't my mindset, I totally understand that and agree that there should be a mode dedicated to it......... Except that mode already exists. It is called casual, and was introduced a few games ago.

And about the "permadeath killing the series" stuff that is getting said, I'm sorry but that is crap. What almost killed the series in the States was a severe lack of advertising/marketing combined with SEVERAL poor decisions regarding the releases of FE10 and 11; I can get into more detail if you'd like but it feels like it's derailing here.

So basically my first problem is that I don't see how it expands the audience at all. The only people it should attract is the same group that was already addressed with the addition of casual mode. This leads to my second point.

2) Since phoenix mode doesn't attract new players, we must ask what does it do? Why does it exist? At the point where you are reviving every unit every turn, it's not even a strategy game. Here's the deal breaker for me. The only purpose phoenix mode serves is to distance Fire Emblem from being a "strategy game." It is there to completely remove the whole purpose of the game. I can still start up a game of older FEs or the Advance Wars series and have a blast with it. Hacks based on FE7 are still happening (and there were a few very good ones), FE7x is still in development and is due for another beta anytime now last I heard. There is a reason that they've lasted so well. It is because IS knew exactly what they were making, and the gameplay was the focus. I'll bold this for emphasis, because it is my main point here: Phoenix mode actively and purposefully removes strategic gameplay completely. This makes me extremely concerned that Fire Emblem as a whole will put less and less importance into what made the series great. That is my problem with phoenix mode. Not what it does now, but what it means going forward.

[Water Mage]

No offense, but your first argument fell flat the moment you based it with your own experiences, you can't claim that's the way it was for everyone, and for some people even causal is scary, as you lose the unit for rest of the battle.

And mind you, phoenix mode is not something that you give instant victory, you still have to put an effort.

[Spud]

So which part of my first point did you have a problem with? Where I said that several people including myself were introduced to FE at 12-14? Because I don't see how lumping myself into that group would make anything fall flat.

Or do you take issue with where I said I beat FE7 as a kid? Because that isn't core to my point at all. My point was that grinding has not been the norm with FE, and simply connecting it back by mentioning FE7. Again, nothing falls flat if you take out where I said that, I can simply use a different example just as easily.

And mind you, phoenix mode is not something that you give instant victory, you still have to put an effort.

Do you though? Again, let's think about this. Let's say you're up against a hard boss. In classic or casual, you need to play your cards carefully. Maybe you try to manipulate him into using a one-range weapon so you can plink him from range for a turn, maybe you take advantage of game mechanics like canto/rescuing/whatever to let yourself get a few easy hits. Maybe you decide you don't have a ready answer for him and break out the effective weaponry that people tend to hoard. In casual, you might have a little bit of leeway with the ability to sacrifice someone to damage him, as long that the character that died wasn't essential to finishing the job, but the core need for strategy is still intact. In phoenix mode though? Why bother thinking? Just zerg-rush him until you win, it'll happen eventually.

But that's a very specific scenario. Let's say you are outnumbered in a fairly small area, chokepoints and such. Both classic and casual would require you to take some care with how you build your defenses, because if your chokepoint is breached suddenly you are down units and in a bad spot tactically. In phoenix mode though? Why bother thinking? Just place your units around haphazardly, the chances that the enemy AI is able to take advantage (especially in normal mode) before your literally unlimited resources win the day is pretty much nil.

Okay, that's two scenarios. Let's say you are simply playing a bog-standard chapter, enemies are scattered around somewhat loosely. Both classic and casual require you to still use the most basic of tactics to simply make sure you can train the units you want to train, and don't screw yourself later in the game or just later in the level. In phoenix mode though? Why bother thinking? Just advance recklessly, anyone that dies will just pop back up and you're fine!

Should I keep going or should I go back to what I said? Phoenix mode actively and purposefully removes strategic gameplay completely.

EDIT: vv that is fantastic to hear. I'm staying as spoiler free as I can, so I'm glad to hear that. I hope I'm just making a big deal out of nothin'

Edited July 28, 2015 by Spud

[Othin]

This makes me extremely concerned that Fire Emblem as a whole will put less and less importance into what made the series great.

Fates has the most complex and strategically-focused gameplay of any Fire Emblem game. I've been playing the series for over 10 years and even after getting most of the way through my third and fourth playthroughs of Fates, I still have trouble keeping track of all the basic options I have.

That's why these simpler difficulty options exist. So that someone who doesn't have that kind of experience and is overwhelmed by the complexity the series now has more than ever can tick down the difficulty level one more step and cruise through to at least see the rest of the story.

[MCProductions]

Spud, Fates has timed maps that equal game over upon running out of time. Blitz everything with Phoenix could very well not work here, especially with the most complex weapons system to date that literally penalizes the player for using anything stronger than an Iron weapon. Combined with how well designed and brutal Nohr's maps supposedly are,heard them referred to as the second coming of Thracia 776, Phoenix may be more necessary for new players than you think. Strategy is certainly still there, but yes there is more in casual and classic. Heck, Capture and Rescue are back, as skills, in Fates, so lack of strategy is not a concern.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Why would a newcomer go play Conquest when it's the harder option. Newcomers would go "So Nohr's path is for older Fe players huh? Then I'll play Hoshido's first."

[Water Mage]

So which part of my first point did you have a problem with? Where I said that several people including myself were introduced to FE at 12-14? Because I don't see how lumping myself into that group would make anything fall flat.

Or do you take issue with where I said I beat FE7 as a kid? Because that isn't core to my point at all. My point was that grinding has not been the norm with FE, and simply connecting it back by mentioning FE7. Again, nothing falls flat if you take out where I said that, I can simply use a different example just as easily.

My issue wasn't your age, what I meant was that by basing your argument on your own experiences and the experience of singular group is not enough for your argument, after all can you claim that what you and your friends went throught with the game was the same experience others went throught?

And there is grinding in FE7, what do you think the Arena is for?

But in Nohr there is no Arena, and no world map, so grinding is almost impossible,

And there are also at least some situations in Nohr that I know of, that Phoenix Mode won't help much, but since you don't want to be spoiled, I'll put in the spoiler tag,

There is a defense map where zerg-rushing is a very bad idea and there is another map where the main lord is stuck alone with the boss

I kept the spoilers to a minimum, and did not use characters names or chapter numbers.

[cloudropis]

If the player really can't progress much because grinding is impossible there are several things he can do: change tactics, characters, learning the mechanics better, even load a previous save if stuff really went south.

I hate this new mindset that not achieving a win state at the first try and having to *gasp* put effort and shuffle stuff around to succeed is a failure of game design.

[Auro Astum]

^Them censors bro.

Seriously, Nintendo of America will NEVER publish a title rated above T for Teen, and I like it that way.

Geist and Bayonetta 2 are two games that are rated M and published by Nintendo.

On Phoenix Mode: I'm fine with it existing, just like I was fine with casual mode existing. I don't plan on using it, though if it brings more people into the series (especially considering what i'm assuming is a vocal minority have basically disowned the series) more power to them. It does seem somewhat redundant with casual mode still being in, but I haven't played the game so maybe conquest is that hard for newbies. I don't know.

[Reflex]

I wish people that argue on censorship, rating, and generally what they're arguing against casualization actually research what they're talking about.

Honestly asking, do people arguing actually play games besides Fire Emblem, because the answer against Phoenix Mode seems no.

[Soapbar]

I wish people that argue on censorship, rating, and generally what they're arguing against casualization actually research what they're talking about.

Honestly asking, do people arguing actually play games besides Fire Emblem, because the answer against Phoenix Mode seems no.

>claims that people arguing against Phoenix Mode are doing no research

>proceeds to make no actual points at all, contribute nothing to discussion or even point out what exactly we should be researching and what we're missing

To answer your question, yes, I could give you an entire portfolio of my gaming experience if I wanted too but I'm not very into derailing this thread and it would be mostly irrelevant anyways

Spud, Fates has timed maps that equal game over upon running out of time. Blitz everything with Phoenix could very well not work here, especially with the most complex weapons system to date that literally penalizes the player for using anything stronger than an Iron weapon. Combined with how well designed and brutal Nohr's maps supposedly are,heard them referred to as the second coming of Thracia 776, Phoenix may be more necessary for new players than you think. Strategy is certainly still there, but yes there is more in casual and classic. Heck, Capture and Rescue are back, as skills, in Fates, so lack of strategy is not a concern.

My issue wasn't your age, what I meant was that by basing your argument on your own experiences and the experience of singular group is not enough for your argument, after all can you claim that what you and your friends went throught with the game was the same experience others went throught?

And there is grinding in FE7, what do you think the Arena is for?

But in Nohr there is no Arena, and no world map, so grinding is almost impossible,

And there are also at least some situations in Nohr that I know of, that Phoenix Mode won't help much, but since you don't want to be spoiled, I'll put in the spoiler tag,

There is a defense map where zerg-rushing is a very bad idea and there is another map where the main lord is stuck alone with the boss

I kept the spoilers to a minimum, and did not use characters names or chapter numbers.

The problem is that this assumes that the majority of new players who are just coming into the series are going to start with Nohr, but it would not be uneducated to say that most of them will start with Hoshido, as that is marketed specifically as newbie friendly. Don't get me wrong, some will certainly be a bit more adventurous/uneducated and start with Nohr but it's a decent guess that they'll be the minority

Coincidentally, most of Hoshido consists of Rout and Defeat Boss.