Grey morality in Fates and where/how to insert/enhance it. (possible spoilers)

[warchiefwilliams]

Despite my efforts to avoid spoilers in the run-up to this game's localization in the west, I have seen a few of them. While most of them I try to instantly forget about, there is one that unfortunately stuck with me, and that is the apparent purity of Hoshido.

Nothing tends to upset me more in a story than a faction being presented as the holiest, purist and "bestest" faction out of two, and the other one being characterized as those who feast on baby seals and are the masters of other dastardly things. Sadly, this is exactly how Hoshido and Nohr seem to be characterized respectively. Hoshido is a happy place to live with bountiful harvests and lovely weather, and Nohr is Mordor complete with lava plains and leaders who even on good days (not giving away spoilers since I don't know how to use a spoiler tag) would massacre their own people for laughs. At least Ylisse had a few skeletons in the closet and even though the characters didn't dwell on it too much, I as the player, did, knowing that rulers like Emmeryn and Chrom were the exception rather than the rule of Ylissian rulers which allowed me to sympathize more with the Plegians who were rightly pissed off about their past.

Anyways, bit**ing about a problem without presenting any solutions is just bit**ing, so here is an idea. If the localization team were to add/tweak any "skeletons in the closet" or other plot material in the game to make the conflict a bit "greyer" what should it be? I have a few ideas, but I would like to hear what you all have to say.

A simple idea that it seems a lot of people have had would be to make Hoshido appear to be mimicking Japan circa 1645 when the Tokugawa Shogunate effectively closed Japan off to foreigners and executed anyone who thought otherwise (that's a bit of a generalization, but you get the idea). You could have Nohrian traders desperately trying to trade with Hoshido to bring food back to starving Nohr, only to disappear. Diplomats sent to find out what happened their merchants only to share the same fate. There we go. An actual casus belli to invade Hoshido other than "we feel like it to fulfill some evil being's will and because apparently our people don't like getting massacred."

Any ideas? Feel free to use spoilers if you feel it would help.

[Fyras4]

I can't really say much, though...

Had the problem being entirely human...the whole let's take over because we can, would make better sense to me. No outside force pushing the plot...had the story being more elaborate that could have been the whole reason from going to war with Hoshido...although if we think about it, perhaps the royal family and the other feudal lords are not as close as we are let to believe...and the whole angle you present of their 'no foreigners' policy would make it just as an excuse by Nohr to take over...although, why can't they just be greedy and be done with it!?

Why would they need a reason? Why is it always about revenge or outside forces going about their day to ruin everyone else's? (Would wonder how this would affect the characters though...)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Fyras4

[Alazen]

At least Ylisse had a few skeletons in the closet and even though the characters didn't dwell on it too much, I as the player, did, knowing that rulers like Emmeryn and Chrom were the exception rather than the rule of Ylissian rulers which allowed me to sympathize more with the Plegians who were rightly pissed off about their past.

Of course, it should be noted that Plegia's national deity is a genocidal human hating dragon. And that none of the recruitable Plegians ever bring up Chrom's Father's Crusade as a point against Ylisse in supports. Not even Gangrel.

Anyway, there's plenty of ways to approach this issue. Make the East an analogue of Sengoku Japan in that it was split between warring states until King Sumeragi came to the town. Make Hoshido have a belligerent ruler (see Quan). Have Hoshidan nobles throw its agricultural weight around. Point out how Hoshido's prosperity has led to corruption despite its outward beauty. Have Hoshido match Nohr when it comes to massacres and/or war crimes.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Alazen

[FrostyFireMage]

there are plenty of immoral Hoshidan bosses

[Alazen]

And they all match Ganz with Macbeth? While also being active members of Hoshido's military?

Edited July 30, 2015 by Alazen

[Yari]

And they all match Ganz with Macbeth?

I don't think they come close to those two at all. What a pity...

[Taka-kun]

Of course, it should be noted that Plegia's national deity is a genocidal human hating dragon. And that none of the recruitable Plegians ever bring up Chrom's Father's Crusade as a point against Ylisse in supports. Not even Gangrel.

The one thing I liked about in Awakening (despite its mess of a story), is Robin's character. Some view his actions as laziness from the writers, though I prefer to think that he IS that immoral, with no qualms at all about killing enemies. Ricken and Henry and Gaius and Libra had various degrees of discussing the horrors of war, yet Robin's straightforward about eliminating the enemies to gain advantage when the risk is not too high (like in M!Robin and Severa's support). Not once does he consider the idea of mercy, which is somewhat reflected in the players' actions of killing all for maximum exp, and M!Robin is called out on in his support with Walhart after all.

Contrast this with Kamui who is a straight-up goody two-shoes and if to believed about Nohr's story

manages to fight several battles WITHOUT killing, wtf?

To make the story with more grey morality, I would probably start with Kamui. Sure, make him/her an idealist in the beginning, but then slowly whittle that away from them.

[Pepper]

The one thing I liked about in Awakening (despite its mess of a story), is Robin's character. Some view his actions as laziness from the writers, though I prefer to think that he IS that immoral, with no qualms at all about killing enemies. Ricken and Henry and Gaius and Libra had various degrees of discussing the horrors of war, yet Robin's straightforward about eliminating the enemies to gain advantage when the risk is not too high (like in M!Robin and Severa's support). Not once does he consider the idea of mercy, which is somewhat reflected in the players' actions of killing all for maximum exp, and M!Robin is called out on in his support with Walhart after all.

Contrast this with Kamui who is a straight-up goody two-shoes and if to believed about Nohr's story

manages to fight several battles WITHOUT killing, wtf?

To make the story with more grey morality, I would probably start with Kamui. Sure, make him/her an idealist in the beginning, but then slowly whittle that away from them.

I wished in IK we had a balanced Kamui one where he knew shit had to be done but wasn't broken like he was in Nohr and I really wish the rumours of Ryoma in IK actually happened cause him personally hounding you in anger about not choosing a side and personally tracking you down for most of the path.

[Thane]

Well, a good place to start would be NOT having Sakura say "this country only has good people in it" and actually mean it. It was a quote we knew about before the game's Japanese release, and I thought it would be a sign of her naivety, but apparently not.

I do think the game does an adequate job of showing us that there are plenty of good Nohrians though. However, Garon, Iago and Ganz have zero personality and appear to be evil for the sake of being evil, and that makes it very hard to think "nah you know what? I'm gonna side with the evil empire."

[Emperor Hardin]

there are plenty of immoral Hoshidan bosses

I hard the opposite, I can get the list.

[Pepper]

I hard the opposite, I can get the list.

I think there was the leader of Fuuma clan.

[Ryo]

I think there was the leader of Fuuma clan.

Fuuma is not Hoshido though.

[Pepper]

Fuuma is not Hoshido though.

I thought they were a part of it.

[NekoKnight]

Something about the sheer contrast between the conditions in Nohrdor and Hoshido makes me think they were once similar before "something" tipped the balance (heavily) in Hoshido's favor. If I were to rewrite the story, I would discuss the cause of this disparity and how Hoshidans are indifferent to the suffering of Nohrians. The Hoshidan rulers could even acknowledge that they could do more to help Nohr out but to do so would make them extremely unpopular.

Fuuma is not Hoshido though.

I thought they were a part of it.

The relationship between Hoshido, Nohr and the "dukedoms" is a little fuzzy but it's clear that Fuuma is geographically and culturally Hoshidan. I don't think it really makes Hoshido that much greyer though. It is just one clan that turned traitor on the Hoshidan throne. They are the exception to the "pure" Hoshido.

Edited July 30, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Pepper]

Something about the sheer contrast between the conditions in Nohrdor and Hoshido makes me think they were once similar before "something" tipped the balance (heavily) in Hoshido's favor. If I were to rewrite the story, I would discuss the cause of this disparity and how Hoshidans are indifferent to the suffering of Nohrians.

The relationship between Hoshido, Nohr and the "dukedoms" is a little fuzzy but it's clear that Fuuma is geographically and culturally Hoshidan. I don't think it really makes Hoshido that much greyer though. It is just one clan that turned traitor on the Hoshidan throne. They are the exception to the "pure" Hoshido.

I'm still kinda lost on the dukedoms and their relationships with the two kingdoms.

[Alazen]

Having a token traitor really doesn't do the trick. Genealogy of the Holy War did a far better job of showing infighting among the Lord's birth country (most of Grannvale's duchies being complict in Arvis and Manfroy's conspiracy)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Alazen

[NeonZ]

Like I said in another topic, they could just highlight how Hoshido is constantly attacking Nohr in the Nohr route, making it necessary to put them down for Nohr's people itself, rather than just invading to reveal Garon's true colors. As it stands, even while on the offensive, Hoshido is portrayed as completely innocent and even taking out lives of their soldiers is avoided, aside when certain villainous characters come in and order their executions. The characters treating them and talking about them as more aggressive enemies would be the easiest way to solve many issues with the Nohr route at least, even if Hoshido would still remain all "white" in their own route and IK.

Edited July 30, 2015 by NeonZ

[Taka-kun]

Having a token traitor really doesn't do the trick. Genealogy of the Holy War did a far better job of showing infighting among the Lord's birth country (most of Grannvale's duchies being complict in Arvis and Manfroy's conspiracy)

The Tellius series were also good at showing personal ambitions being the catalyst of most events, with the gods only taking center stage at the very end. Even Ashnard's actions, who was brutal and cruel beyond doubt, were praised by some in Daein for ridding the feudalistic system of nobles opressing the commoners. Even Walhart could have been such in Awakening. Even though we didn't see much of his "better" side, Walhart still had the undying loyalty of his men. I see no such character in Nohr, they are just straight up evil.

[B.Leu]

Well first, it would be nice if they actually intended to do use grey and grey moralitiy in their writing in the first place. :/

[RedMage]

The one thing I liked about in Awakening (despite its mess of a story), is Robin's character. Some view his actions as laziness from the writers, though I prefer to think that he IS that immoral, with no qualms at all about killing enemies. Ricken and Henry and Gaius and Libra had various degrees of discussing the horrors of war, yet Robin's straightforward about eliminating the enemies to gain advantage when the risk is not too high (like in M!Robin and Severa's support). Not once does he consider the idea of mercy, which is somewhat reflected in the players' actions of killing all for maximum exp, and M!Robin is called out on in his support with Walhart after all.

Contrast this with Kamui who is a straight-up goody two-shoes and if to believed about Nohr's story

manages to fight several battles WITHOUT killing, wtf?

To make the story with more grey morality, I would probably start with Kamui. Sure, make him/her an idealist in the beginning, but then slowly whittle that away from them.

Completely agreed with this.

How the heck do you win multiple battles without killing anyone? Does the soldiers just avoid swinging their weapons at ALL the enemies' vital points or what. If an enemy is trying to kill you, trying to avoid killing them in a fight is difficult as hell. Doesn't make sense.

I'm still kinda lost on the dukedoms and their relationships with the two kingdoms.

I think Fuuma is a neutral country/faction or something. Fates doesn't do a good job with explaining the countries and geography. All I know for sure is that Nohr and Hoshido are neighboring countries.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Yuina

[Awakener_]

I guess OP must hated every peacefully nations in our world, especially Sweden.

Jk

There is nothing wrong with with black-white morality, I hated shoehorned grey-grey morality more. Plus Hoshido isn't even all that perfect, given that there are racism against Nohrians where to the like of Azura that the nobles even attended to kill her for being one. Nohr having a shitty land compared to Hoshido's isn't something that they can control and Hoshido is the aggressor in their route .

[warchiefwilliams]

I guess OP must hated every peacefully nations in our world, especially Sweden.

Oi, even Sweden had its expansionist phase. They refer to it as the Stormaktstiden, or "Great Power" era, and it ran from the ascension of Gustavus Adolphus in 1611 and ended around 1721. Just because they sat both world wars out doesn't make them peace loving hippies.

I kid and no offense to any Swedes out there, your history is awesome. Moving on to something more productive.

There is nothing wrong with with black-white morality, I hated shoehorned grey-grey morality more. Plus Hoshido isn't even all that perfect, given that there are racism against Nohrians where to the like of Azura that the nobles even attended to kill her for being one. Nohr having a shitty land compared to Hoshido's isn't something that they can control and Hoshido is the aggressor in their route .

True, shoehorned grey-grey is just as bad as poorly done black-white, but just racism isn't enough to force a war. I could understand it if King Sumeragi and Queen Mikoto were also of the mindset of "f**k Nohr" and when their people howled for Nohrian blood they gladly joined them, but from what I have seen from Mikoto's (limited from what I have seen) characterization, she doesn't seem to be the type to start frothing at the mouth at the mention of Nohrians, and if she was that way, then why hadn't she skinned Azura (a Nohrian princess living under Hoshido's roof) alive and used her flayed hide as Hoshido's new battle standard? That was a bit of an extreme example, but the point still stands.

Regarding Nohr's shitty land, what did they do to get that poor of a nation? Is it just Plegia syndrome of "bad guys live in deserts" or did they anger some dark dragon god/thing who made their land into mordor? It certainly wasn't industrialization, because the moment a fire emblem nation is even somewhat in the industrial era is the moment the franchise morphs into proto-advanced wars. (Code-name Steam Emblem as a working title for said game)

[Awakener_]

Regarding Nohr's shitty land, what did they do to get that poor of a nation? Is it just Plegia syndrome of "bad guys live in deserts" or did they anger some dark dragon god/thing who made their land into mordor? It certainly wasn't industrialization, because the moment a fire emblem nation is even somewhat in the industrial era is the moment the franchise morphs into proto-advanced wars. (Code-name Steam Emblem as a working title for said game)

It service as a plot device for Nohr/Hoshido's conflict until Kamui replace it.

[Medeus]

I have to disagree about the whole racism thing making Hoshido "not so perfect." It is a negative trait, but when you think about it, does it really have that major of an effect on how the story (and by extension, the reader) perceives Hoshido? Aqua does get chased out, but it's not really given too much weight other then getting her on your side and it doesn't negate how Aqua feels towards Hoshido, there are no major villainous characters that exhibit that trait for us to place a face on, and it's barely touched upon if you don't read supports (and even then, I don't recall it showing up that much there either). The racism aspect is something that really doesn't get a lot of attention as it's not developed properly, so it's not as much of a blight on them for the reader as it should be.

It's as William says, if Mikoto, Sumeragi or some of the other major characters exhibited a horrible racist attitude towards Nohr, that would've done more to dirty them. The Jugdral series does that to an extent as the story describes that Thracia's suffering is a result of Quan's and the duchies imposed tariffs, and we see how much Thracia suffers because of it in the second game. We don't really get that with Fates, as it is portrayed in the story, it's just another element of the story that gets mostly glossed over and never fleshed out.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Medeus

[Awakener_]

I have to disagree about the whole racism thing making Hoshido "not so perfect." It is a negative trait, but when you think about it, does it really have that major of an effect on how the story (and by extension, the reader) perceives Hoshido? Aqua does get chased out, but it's not really given too much weight other then getting her on your side and it doesn't negate how Aqua feels towards Hoshido, there are no major villainous characters that exhibit that trait for us to place a face on, and it's barely touched upon if you don't read supports (and even then, I don't recall it showing up that much there either). The racism aspect is something that really doesn't get a lot of attention as it's not developed properly, so it's not as much of a blight on them for the reader as it should be.

It's as William says, if Mikoto, Sumeragi or some of the other major characters exhibited a horrible racist attitude towards Nohr, that would've done more to dirty them. The Jugdral series does that to an extent as the story describes that Thracia's suffering is a result of Quan's and the duchies imposed tariffs, and we see how much Thracia suffers because of it in the second game. We don't really get that with Fates, as it is portrayed in the story, it's just another element of the story that gets mostly glossed over and never fleshed out.

I am not saying that is all it take to make Hoshido bad, but overall no side is truly bad not even Nohr. In Nohr, Hoshido invaded Nohr when Xander retreated after Kamui stay with them and as well as wanting to get Kamui back. In Hoshido, after losing Kamui who the Nohrian royal siblings considered as the savior/light to their dark kingdom proceed to just to invade Hoshido as well as maybe wanting Kamui back. The Nohrians are just as righteous as any good Hoshidans, Nohr didn't even committed anything evil beside wanting Hoshido's land so they can feed their people. I just don't see any reasons to make Mikoto evil or some craps.