Taka-kun Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Jumping in here: So True!Garon kidnapped Kamui, not Fake!Garon? Headcanon for making Garon kidnapping Kamui like Travant kidnapped Altenna. I do recall that in Kirokan's Hoshido story summary that "he" (not sure if true or fake Garon) felt something when they kidnapped Kamui. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 We don't actually know for sure. But if he did I believe it could have something to do with what the Sage told him in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIO Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I've been thinking about what exactly If/Fates tried to do and what would need to be changed or pronounced in order to be less one-sided. I'll admit i've not exactly seen everything (translations are less frequent nowadays it seems...), so maybe what I'm thinking of is already in the game. Basically, both sides need a few more archetypes to better represent the moral spectrum; patriots and opportunists, clashing loyalties, and challenges of convictions. Hoshido needed more characters that were less accepting; openly questioning and challenging Kamui of their intentions for the war. The supports for Aqua mentioned how there were certain factions in Hoshido that were openly hostile to her in her youth, where were they when a supposed lost heir raised in Nohr showed up? since Hoshido was an open-map game, there should've been more side missions that involved building up loyalty and trust with the powers that be, having to choose which faction to curry favor and earn trust. I mean, the queen was just assassinated; you're telling me that the noble families and smaller lands stayed relatively together? No plays for power or attempts to sate old grudges? Another missed oppurtunity really. Nohr...needed to be less cartoonishly evil and Kamui needed to actually PLAN to overthrow Garon. it could have Ganz and Macbeth, but not forever; one of them should've been able to be swayed to Kamui's rebellion (there's another choice for the player, huh?), or put in a position of no longer being a factor without having a kill-steal from the family. There should've been more map-based secondary objectives that would curry favor with either the common folk or a influential power, something that turns the repelling of Hoshido into a benefit for your rebellion outside of what Garon wants. More than that however, Garon needed to BE something other than a glorified ball as you sought the special hoop in Hoshido. He needed to be a real wildcard force; aiding you in one battle and hindering you in another, and all the time keeping you paranoid and guessing if he knows what you're doing. Maybe having to do some unsavory things like ignoring a plea for help on your march to battle, or not completing every objective or you'll make him even more suspicions of you. I get Hoshido was supposed to be a 'classic' story of good vs. evil, but there should've been more intrigue and choices besides who lives or dies. And Nohr should've been the game they claimed it would be; about reforming a broken kingdom from within, with the matter of choice being when to give silk and when to use steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I've been thinking about what exactly If/Fates tried to do and what would need to be changed or pronounced in order to be less one-sided. I'll admit i've not exactly seen everything (translations are less frequent nowadays it seems...), so maybe what I'm thinking of is already in the game. Basically, both sides need a few more archetypes to better represent the moral spectrum; patriots and opportunists, clashing loyalties, and challenges of convictions. Hoshido needed more characters that were less accepting; openly questioning and challenging Kamui of their intentions for the war. The supports for Aqua mentioned how there were certain factions in Hoshido that were openly hostile to her in her youth, where were they when a supposed lost heir raised in Nohr showed up? since Hoshido was an open-map game, there should've been more side missions that involved building up loyalty and trust with the powers that be, having to choose which faction to curry favor and earn trust. I mean, the queen was just assassinated; you're telling me that the noble families and smaller lands stayed relatively together? No plays for power or attempts to sate old grudges? Another missed oppurtunity really. Nohr...needed to be less cartoonishly evil and Kamui needed to actually PLAN to overthrow Garon. it could have Ganz and Macbeth, but not forever; one of them should've been able to be swayed to Kamui's rebellion (there's another choice for the player, huh?), or put in a position of no longer being a factor without having a kill-steal from the family. There should've been more map-based secondary objectives that would curry favor with either the common folk or a influential power, something that turns the repelling of Hoshido into a benefit for your rebellion outside of what Garon wants. More than that however, Garon needed to BE something other than a glorified ball as you sought the special hoop in Hoshido. He needed to be a real wildcard force; aiding you in one battle and hindering you in another, and all the time keeping you paranoid and guessing if he knows what you're doing. Maybe having to do some unsavory things like ignoring a plea for help on your march to battle, or not completing every objective or you'll make him even more suspicions of you. I get Hoshido was supposed to be a 'classic' story of good vs. evil, but there should've been more intrigue and choices besides who lives or dies. And Nohr should've been the game they claimed it would be; about reforming a broken kingdom from within, with the matter of choice being when to give silk and when to use steel. While I like your ideas, if there is any FE game that can achieve that level of intrigue and war, it would be FE4 and many seems to agree that IS will never be able to write something like that again. To implement such ideas, they need to make the story more linear, including character interactions. But seeing how you can marry your siblings and sidetrack into secluded realms, IS needs to stay out of the linear aspect to avoid upsetting fans. Fates had heavy implications of Kamui/Aqua and just that upsets alot of people, even on SF. Something like Sigurd/Deidre would probably not fly, especially when Waifu Emblem is so popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 While I like your ideas, if there is any FE game that can achieve that level of intrigue and war, it would be FE4 and many seems to agree that IS will never be able to write something like that again. To implement such ideas, they need to make the story more linear, including character interactions. But seeing how you can marry your siblings and sidetrack into secluded realms, IS needs to stay out of the linear aspect to avoid upsetting fans. Fates had heavy implications of Kamui/Aqua and just that upsets alot of people, even on SF. Something like Sigurd/Deidre would probably not fly, especially when Waifu Emblem is so popular. You know, I don't get the craze about non-linear and sand-box style games; more choices generally means less depth. I'm all for a more linear game if there's clearly more polish put into it. Let me pose a question: outside of tumblrinas and Etika types, how prevalent is the waifu/shipping side of things? Would most people complain if that went away for a more streamlined and overall better story? I mostly see it thrown around jokingly outside of this forum; seems like a very vocal minority thing (...said the member of a very vocal minority). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't particularly care if they removed the "waifu"/pairing elements from the game. I do have my favorites whom I love pairing my player Avatar with (Cordelia in Awakening, planning to pair with Matoi in Fates), but frankly I really loved The Sacred Stones and that was a game with no such Avatar-pairing option whatsoever (indeed, Avatars didn't exist in that game) and even marriages were reserved to A rank support endings (and even then, not all of them). And I've been enjoying Genealogy of the Holy War. It has pairing elements, obviously, but once again, the Avatar system didn't exist yet. I actually do enjoy the Avatar/pairing system. I do like having an in-game "waifu", so to speak. But its no where near essential; Genealogy and The Sacred Stones (the two non-Awakening games I've played in FE) are awesome as they are and another game like these would probably be awesome two. I enjoy the "waifus" in Awakening and anticipate enjoying the "waifu" system in Fates, but honestly if the next game didn't have it available I wouldn't really care . I would have even been totally fine with it if Fates had removed the system (although I correctly guessed that it would return given its popularity from Awakening). EDIT: To make an addendum back on the topic of grey morality, I don't really care that much if they go with grey-grey morality, black-white morality, or something else. I don't play FE games for story anyways. Edited August 1, 2015 by astrophys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIO Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 You know, I don't get the craze about non-linear and sand-box style games; more choices generally means less depth. I'm all for a more linear game if there's clearly more polish put into it. Let me pose a question: outside of tumblrinas and Etika types, how prevalent is the waifu/shipping side of things? Would most people complain if that went away for a more streamlined and overall better story? I mostly see it thrown around jokingly outside of this forum; seems like a very vocal minority thing (...said the member of a very vocal minority). Not inherently. While it's true that more resources are required the greater your(informal) scope or ambition becomes, sometimes it's just a matter of presenting two logical conclusions to an action taken. For me as a small-time game-developer/artist, choices in a game represent realized potential; that a concept was tested and proven to have merit on multiple facets and that there was confidence to leave the choice int he player's hands. Admittingly, sometimes the choices presented are...underwhelming, or have a thin attachment to the existing narrative, but the fact remains that the potential was realized. I don't knock linear games, but again, as someone that tinkers into the inner workings of games, it fascinates me... I don't know, or really care, just how much of Fire Emblem's fandom is embroiled in these 'waifu wars', I'm only really in this to see what kind of world-building can come about thanks to the options of choice. The lead-up and marketing for If/Fates emphasized how your actions mattered, and while we(informal) could spend hours or weeks arguing what 'actions' we were ultimately given, That's not my interest here. For this topic I've chosen to dip into flights of fancy of what could be, and leave the matters of logistics or implementation out of the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 You know, I don't get the craze about non-linear and sand-box style games; more choices generally means less depth. I'm all for a more linear game if there's clearly more polish put into it. Let me pose a question: outside of tumblrinas and Etika types, how prevalent is the waifu/shipping side of things? Would most people complain if that went away for a more streamlined and overall better story? I mostly see it thrown around jokingly outside of this forum; seems like a very vocal minority thing (...said the member of a very vocal minority). I would gladly throw away the waifu mechanic currently in FE and go back to the after-story endings in older games. I mean, the waifu mechanic here isn't even that good. The jump from A to S is just sudden and out-of-the-air, with no leadup at all. After marriage, there is nothing at all, between the spouses, they all live happily with no problem. It's clear that it's just for the player to say "yeah, I married my digital waifu!" and nothing else. If there were more fleshed-out supports and exploration around the waifu's background, motivations and the like, like how they do in visual novels, then I would be fine. There is no way you can do that with 50+ characters though. I am a fan of both linear and choice-based stories, depending on how they are implemented and that they are stories (so GTA doesn't count). I didn't really expect Fates to be the level of Mass Effect, but I am hugely dissapointed since the premise was very promising and, like DIO pointed out above, misses the chance of worldbuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alisa180 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Here is where the "Hoshido struck first" argument falls apart. Nohr (Garon) assassinated the sovereign of Hoshido and then kidnapped their prince. That by itself is a perfectly valid reason to go to war, and yet they were such a peaceful lot they STILL didn't go to war until ANOTHER of their leaders was assassinated. Garon is bad, Macbeth is bad, Ganz is bad and you could even say Marx is bad for being 100% behind the invasion, even after Kamui tells him about some of the heinous things Garon did. When the leadership of one country is mostly evil and the leadership of the other country only attack in retaliation for their belligerence, there is no moral greyness. No that's not where the argument falls apart. The war was happening before Mikoto got assassinated. Remember in Chapter 2 Rinkah and Kaze had been captured as prisoners of war during a skirmish. From Mikoto's character and the existence of the barrier, one can infer they of course don't want to fight. And the barrier made it *physically impossible* for Nohr to strike directly at Hoshido. The only way Rinkah and Kaze could get captured is if Hoshido was already sending in soldiers. And the reason they sent in soldiers was because they believed the Faceless was Nohr's doing. Nohr was effectively on defense before the barrier fell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I have nothing against waifus/husbando... if they don't make me scrath my head constantly that is. Seriously, the waster of support. I wanted to ask, what is this barrier that Mikoto created exactly ? I don't get it. Is it a physical shield that stop Nohr from entering ? Or does it just... steal their violent emotions ? This one doesn't really put Mikoto in a good light. :/ It sounds like something that was put like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Magic barrier. It appears to do some form of brainwashing to remove aggression towards Hoshido from people when they enter Hoshido. Faceless have no minds of their own, so they are unaffected by the barrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Well, that sounds horribly convenient. As well as horribly dark. :/ EDIT: My, I almost forgot, thank you very much for answering ! Edited August 1, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 No that's not where the argument falls apart. The war was happening before Mikoto got assassinated. Remember in Chapter 2 Rinkah and Kaze had been captured as prisoners of war during a skirmish. From Mikoto's character and the existence of the barrier, one can infer they of course don't want to fight. And the barrier made it *physically impossible* for Nohr to strike directly at Hoshido. The only way Rinkah and Kaze could get captured is if Hoshido was already sending in soldiers. And the reason they sent in soldiers was because they believed the Faceless was Nohr's doing. Nohr was effectively on defense before the barrier fell. Okay, but the Hoshido king was still assassinated by Nohr so they still don't have any moral ground to stand on. I'm not convinced Nohr is ignorant of the Faceless attacks anyway. If the Nohrians had no idea why Hoshido was attacking them, I'd call it weak writing. It's not like there is anything in Nohrdor the Hoshidans would want anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Frankly, it's distressing that the diplomacy and/or skullduggery between the Eastern Lands is so underexplored. I suggested in another thread that the East could have been portrayed as an analogue of Sengoku Japan, with Sumeragi being a warlord who pulled a Nobunaga and went on a conquest spree. Hoshido's "peace-loving" would be enforced with a big stick. I suggest that the rewritten Hoshido would have way more on-screen infighting and double-dealing that goes up to the front in the wake of Mikoto's demise (who in this rewrite has a far more precarious rule than in canon) Edited August 2, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Frankly, it's distressing that the diplomacy and/or skullduggery between the Eastern Lands is so underexplored. I suggested in another thread that the East could have been portrayed as an analogue of Sengoku Japan, with Sumeragi being a warlord who pulled a Nobunaga and went on a conquest spree. Hoshido's "peace-loving" would be enforced with a big stick. I suggest that the rewritten Hoshido would have way more on-screen infighting and double-dealing that goes up to the front in the wake of Mikoto's demise (who in this rewrite has a far more precarious rule than in canon) The "guaranteeing the loyalty of different factions through the use of political hostages" would fit in Hoshido just as much as Nohr (if they were to make Hoshido more like historical Japan). It would have been interesting to have a cousin or uncle (of the Hoshido siblings) try to make a power grab following Mikoto's death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JupiterKnight Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I'm hoping for some dlc that might elaborate on it in the future if Invisible History doesn't. I don't think the Light Dragon symbol even appears in the game, unlike Nohr's Dragon symbol. So maybe they could show Sumeragi turning into a Light Dragon and already being Hydras pawn with Garon being forced to kill him. In fact it's pretty weird how the Invisible Dragon symbol doesn't look like Hydra at all. Even the Nohr Dragon symbol resembles Garon's Dragon form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Thanks to the derailment of another topic, I was reminded of an anime where the MC is a idiotic idealistic hero, who seeks to not kill a single soul despite his contradictory goals, much like Kamui. However, his ideals are continously tested and scorned by others and it's even hinted that down the line, he becomes much more bitter and cynical since he fails to uphold his impossible ideals. In the end however, he does stay with his ideals, if only because the idea is noble, even if reality is different. If I were to rewrite Kamui, I would probably do something like that. Make him a nice guy, likeable by all... then give him hell on earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Thanks to the derailment of another topic, I was reminded of an anime where the MC is a idiotic idealistic hero, who seeks to not kill a single soul despite his contradictory goals, much like Kamui. However, his ideals are continously tested and scorned by others and it's even hinted that down the line, he becomes much more bitter and cynical since he fails to uphold his impossible ideals. In the end however, he does stay with his ideals, if only because the idea is noble, even if reality is different. If I were to rewrite Kamui, I would probably do something like that. Make him a nice guy, likeable by all... then give him hell on earth. The problem is that Fate/Stay Night has just as many problems with its narrative as Fates, even though they're very different. What's not different is that both the protagonists are about as interesting as a wet potato. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The problem is that Fate/Stay Night has just as many problems with its narrative as Fates, even though they're very different. What's not different is that both the protagonists are about as interesting as a wet potato. I have different feelings but this is not the topic for that. All I am saying is that Kamui's personality needs to be changed if he is to be interesting to others that don't find his "good guy likeable by all and not tested at all" attractive. For a game with a large emphasis on choices and betrayal and loyalty, Kamui seems unfazed by it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) You know, I don't get the craze about non-linear and sand-box style games; more choices generally means less depth. I'm all for a more linear game if there's clearly more polish put into it. Let me pose a question: outside of tumblrinas and Etika types, how prevalent is the waifu/shipping side of things? Would most people complain if that went away for a more streamlined and overall better story? I mostly see it thrown around jokingly outside of this forum; seems like a very vocal minority thing (...said the member of a very vocal minority). That doesn't really correlate, the last original entry in the series before Awakening had the least streamlined most bogged down story in the series. Personally I'm of the opinion that what they go for now is actually a more streamlined approach(ofccourse I can't read the Fates dialogue but I've been able to experience how much dialogue there is). With the current support system a large amount of the dialogue goes into the optional supports and flesh out the minor characters that way, the key part is that it's optional and based on how the player mixes and matches their units. This means when it comes to the game the transition between story and the gameplay the flow between chapters becomes a lot smoother. Take their previous structure as shown below for two individual chapters: Pre-chapter dialogue --> Gameplay --> Post Chapter dialogue --> pre-chapter Narration(map screen) --> Pre-chapter dialogue --> Gameplay ---> Post Chapter Dialogue What stands out is that in the past once you complete a chapter there can be up to three mandatory sets of text(post chapter, narration and pre-chapter) that can contain information about the plot, but an issue is that if the bulk of character interaction becomes a pre-set thing and part of the story it impacts the rest of the game. The time between two sections of gameplay could get even longer. Another consequence is you won't be able to press start to just skip dialogue between two characters you aren't interest in as you'd risk missing another scene that could include plot information, Though that makes me think do people actually want a more streamlined story or even think that's better given all the calls for more world building? Should the story be even longer with even more information despite given what I've seen from certain Awakening story dicussion a number of player's don't even know/remember what is said in the story despite most of the between chapter stuff is brief and directly to the point. I think there needs to be some kind of compromise between level of information in the story, events that do happen and when they happen and the flow of the scenes between chapters and quantity of dialogue that ultimately complement the game and gameplay. For example in this thread for every plot point people want to add other existing ones might need to go completely(otherwise we'd have Kibayahi's 500 page story for each route). Edited August 2, 2015 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) I suggest that Hoshido would have its share of war crimes if Nohr does. Whether committed by any of the royal siblings, their subordinates, or a daimo. Conversely, you could rewrite Ganz so that he's less of a mustache twirler. You can frame actions like killing prisoners as stemming from practicality (Nohr shouldn't waste resources on any enemies unless they're so high in the totem pole that holding them gets a ransom or concessions) with Kamui actually agreeing or conceding the point. Edited August 7, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitezen Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I don't see how that magic barrier can even be ignored in a story that hopes to be coherent. "Oh hey, we're a nation where everyone is good and agrees with each other. We also just happen to have access to magic that prevents people from hating our country or government at all. Totally not a factor in this situation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DanMan Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I don't see how that magic barrier can even be ignored in a story that hopes to be coherent. "Oh hey, we're a nation where everyone is good and agrees with each other. We also just happen to have access to magic that prevents people from hating our country or government at all. Totally not a factor in this situation." I feel like this was something from Kozaki's original draft that was supposed to come up later on only to get mostly written out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Seriously though, I really suggest that the dynamic between Kamui and Ganz or Iago be rewritten. As it stands now, it can be summed up like this: 1. Ganz/Iago tells Kamui he'll eat 1000 babies. 2. Kamui objects. 3. Kamui is told he can't stop him since he's so important/Garon approves. 4. Kamui goes impotent. 5. Babies get eaten. 6. Repeat. Edited August 8, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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