Is Counter still broken?

[Espinosa]

25 max luck before mods sounds good enough to me... Enemies will be packing less skl because of the lower caps, too.

Another good new thing about Berserker is their higher skl cap, only 3 points below Brave Hero's.

[Psyruby]

Being the most prone to eating a critical hit is no bueno, no matter which way you slice it. I think crits are bad enough to be taking in games where the critical damage boost was triple damage, even if they weren't fatal (on the grounds that if they weren't outright kills, they could set an otherwise survivable attack up to be a fatal one).

It's only Killing weapons that do quadruple damage, unless the opponent is trying to do crits the crit rate will be 0, the Berserker has A LOT of HP. You can say they are unreliable in story, but if you are putting the Berserker in the direction of characters with critical weapons, you are using your Berserker wrong. In PvP, there isn't really anyway Berserkers aren't good. It's kind of like Generals. They have disadvantages, but their advantages far outweigh them.

EDIT: Espinosa, the silliest transition of stats from Awakening is the fact that Berserkers only lost 3 skill. In fact, almost every mechanical change from Awakening favored Berserkers.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Psyruby

[Shadow Mir]

It's only Killing weapons that do quadruple damage, unless the opponent is trying to do crits the crit rate will be 0, the Berserker has A LOT of HP. You can say they are unreliable in story, but if you are putting the Berserker in the direction of characters with critical weapons, you are using your Berserker wrong. In PvP, there isn't really anyway Berserkers aren't good. It's kind of like Generals. They have disadvantages, but their advantages far outweigh them.

EDIT: Espinosa, the silliest transition of stats from Awakening is the fact that Berserkers only lost 3 skill. In fact, almost every mechanical change from Awakening favored Berserkers.

I was thinking more in story, tbh. I DO NOT like seeing the enemy's crit chance to be anything above 0, and for damn good reason.

[Tamarsamar]

Oh, I see, so the correct answer to Reverse Club (on the offensive) is Killer Lance. Got it, thanks. :P

I'm guessing it would be at least as unwise to send a Berserker after a Mjolnir-wielding Basara as it would to send a Basara after a Reverse Club-wielding Berserker. Because there is no way that Berserkers are actually as good as people are making them out to be. Stat-wise, they aren't nearly as bad as Sorcerers, but they are definitely closer to Sorcerer than they are to Basara.

[Psyruby]

Oh, I see, so the correct answer to Reverse Club (on the offensive) is Killer Lance. Got it, thanks. :P

I'm guessing it would be at least as unwise to send a Berserker after a Mjolnir-wielding Basara as it would to send a Basara after a Reverse Club-wielding Berserker. Because there is no way that Berserkers are actually as good as people are making them out to be. Stat-wise, they aren't nearly as bad as Sorcerers, but they are definitely closer to Sorcerer than they are to Basara.

Basara's stats aren't really what you are cracking them up to be. They have solid all around stats but none of them are amazing other than HP and Luck. One of these is completely useless to specialize in which is why Basara have such solid stats to begin with. Berserkers now have everything they want. 40 Str, 32 Skill, 33 Speed, and even 70 HP. Their Defenses are pretty much pointless. If they were any higher the Berserker would be busted as he wouldn't die even in 3 hits and would kill everything in 1 if they weren't a physical tank.

Also Killer Lance Basara vs. Reverse Club Berserker

(7(Mt)+31(Str)+2(Weapon Bonus)+2(Weapon Triangle Bonus doubled)-27(Def))*4 = 60 Damage.

So nope, can't even kill with Killer Lance unless he both activated Breaking Sky AND criticalled. (BTW, Crit chance is only 18% right now so that's still an 82:18 win rate in the Berserker's favor even if you pumped up your attack to always OHKO with a crit) Mjolnir isn't eve better.

Mjolnir Basara vs. Reverse Club Berserker

(5(Mt)+30(Mag)-2(Weapon Triangle Penalty doubled)-25)*4 = 32. Even with Breaking Sky this is unlikely to OHKO with Berserker's normally low Mag growth.

And there is no reason why an S rank single weapon user wouldn't carry the reverse weapon with them. The Berserker just sort of has Basara's number in a fair fight.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Psyruby

[Tamarsamar]

To clarify, the Berserker would be attacking the Mjolnir Basara in that last hypothetical. Unless you are meaning to say that Berserker can OHKO Mjolnir Basara with a Reverse Club.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion regarding the Luck stat here. If anything, it's all the more crucial to counteract Berserker's natively increased Critical rate. That it gives multiple minor bonuses on top of that makes me regard it as honestly the best stat.

[GoXDS]

To clarify, the Berserker would be attacking the Mjolnir Basara in that last hypothetical. Unless you are meaning to say that Berserker can OHKO Mjolnir Basara with a Reverse Club.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion regarding the Luck stat here. If anything, it's all the more crucial to counteract Berserker's natively increased Critical rate. That it gives multiple minor bonuses on top of that makes me regard it as honestly the best stat.

Skill and Luck are generally the least useful stats because they're they're necessary but above average is superfluous. a Berserker has 32 Skill so crit is (Skill/2)-2 base iirc (slightly nerfed from Awakening) + 20 from class for 34 crit. even with average luck of ~30 Luck, 4 crit is meaningless (it'll be around but you're not supposed to rely on 4%). with Killer Axe, that's now 29%. now it should actually be taken into consideration but Basara having another 5 Luck making that 24% doesn't mean much of a difference either

this is compared to speed where if you can get the edge, you double your dmg. sure, 1 pt in Str or Speed or any stat isn't much most of the time but the difference between Str/Mag and Speed compare to Skill/Luck is that the former can reliably (not rng-based) produce large changes in situations (2RKO to 1RKO and reverse for Def/Res). extra Skill or Luck only increases/decreases your chances by a tiny percentage that may or may not change much at all

Edited August 7, 2015 by GoXDS

[PlayGaiden.EXE]

I, on the other hand, am out-and-out unimpressed with Berserkers. A crit evade penalty, in a game where there are weapons that boost critical damage from triple to quadruple? What the fuck were they thinking?! And all I get for this is the ability to use a weapon that nerfs my offense to hell after using it? I'll pass, thank you very much.

They're broken, ridiculous and impressive... in an unhealthy way. Sure I like the class to death, but it most definitely offsets the balance when compared to other classes. That much can't be questioned, especially with all the talk it brought. I at least would've left the crit bonus at 10 instead of 20, but that alone wouldn't be enough, as other people here went over calcs and everything mostly in the Berserker's advantage, still.

And I thought something was wrong when I noticed higher crit on enemy Berserkers than enemy Trueblades...

I'm personally not a fan of the S rank weapons that cut your offenses in half. There's the slightly higher damage/hit bonuses over an A rank, I guess. But that's it afaik.

[Tamarsamar]

Actually, I just noticed something. When I parsed Berserker's max stats I didn't take the hidden +20 Crit into account. So, that would make them the second-best class stat-wise, with a sizeable weapons advantage over Basara.

Unless there are other hidden class bonuses I am overlooking.

[Psyruby]

Actually, I just noticed something. When I parsed Berserker's max stats I didn't take the hidden +20 Crit into account. So, that would make them the second-best class stat-wise, with a sizeable weapons advantage over Basara.

Unless there are other hidden class bonuses I am overlooking.

I would say Basara's advantage is more of having the flexibility for most situations, but the Berserker exploits the very weakness of having a flexible character. They can't handle extreme situations. The Berserker is the very definition of extreme.

I certainly will use Basara as they can handle themselves in several situations against many opponents quite well tho.

EDIT: A word of caution for thinking of Berserkers as OP. While they may be awesome 1v1, they aren't OP in a 5v5(or even a 1vMany) setting. Ironically it is the horses/fliers that tame Berserkers, as their high movement, no terrain penalty(in the fliers' case), and having a few decent skills will allow them to safely dispose of a Berserker on the opponent's turn. Great Knights are especially effective with their -10 physical damage received skill.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

oh right. @Psyruby, you left out Lancefaire in your calcs and that probably isn't too out there since it's a natural reclass if base is Lance Fighter. that's +20 dmg upon crit, which means it should be enough for Killer Lance Basara to beat out Reverse Club Berserker

Edited August 7, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

oh right. @Psyruby, you left out Lancefaire in your calcs and that probably isn't too out there since it's a natural reclass if base is Lance Fighter. that's +20 dmg upon crit, which means it should be enough for Killer Lance Basara to beat out Reverse Club Berserker

I said in the statement right after that the crit chance was still low(under 20%), even if you cranked your crit rate all the way to +30 with skills(which is the maximum possible bonus from skills), it would end up with 52:48 Advantage Berserker. You are sacrificing 4 skills just to take down this one situation, the Basara should be using his skills more wisely so he can function as a flexible attacker/defender. You have to play the game with the cards you were dealt.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

I said in the statement right after that the crit chance was still low(under 20%), even if you cranked your crit rate all the way to +30 with skills(which you can do), it would end up with 52:48 Advantage Berserker. Like you are sacrificing 4 skills just to take down this one situation, the Basara should be using his skills more wisely so he can function as a flexible attacker/defender.

right right. Holy Lancer would've been a better choice anyways vs Berserker with the +10 Crit and Dodge and higher base stats

[Psyruby]

right right. Holy Lancer would've been a better choice anyways vs Berserker with the +10 Crit and Dodge and higher base stats

Well........ I'd say Holy Lancer isn't entirely right... you have a +10 to Crit and Crit Evade. Nice, definitely helpful, but you got the tricky problem of just having a weapon disadvantage. Even if you used the Reverse Lance, the Berserker could respond with the Reverse Axe next turn. If the Berserker had Swallow Strike, then it would be pretty much game over for Holy Lancer.

The correct answer is... Trueblade. Axes have sucky hitrate, they always have. The Trueblade is the best dodge tank in the game by a wide margin. Even if the Berserker carries a Reverse Club, if the Trueblade has the S rank sword(gives +20 Avoid plus the +10 for being a Trueblade), the bonuses will cancel out and the Reverse Clubs hitrate is only 60. Then you have to account for the fact that the trueblade has higher luck, higher speed than the Barbarians skill, and even can't be doubled by swallow strike. And vantage shenanigans and also flowing strike giving +30 Avoid on the Trueblade's turn(basically making him unhittable on his turn to the majority of the classes).

Edited August 7, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

Well........ I'd say Holy Lancer isn't entirely right... you have a +10 to Crit and Crit Evade. Nice, definitely helpful, but you got the tricky problem of just having a weapon disadvantage. Even if you used the Reverse Lance, the Berserker could respond with the Reverse Axe next turn. If the Berserker had Swallow Strike, then it would be pretty much game over for Holy Lancer.

The correct answer is... Trueblade. Axes have sucky hitrate, they always have. The Trueblade is the best dodge tank in the game by a wide margin. Even if the Berserker carries a Reverse Club, if the Trueblade has the S rank sword(gives +20 Avoid plus the +10 for being a Trueblade), the bonuses will cancel out and the Reverse Clubs hitrate is only 60. Then you have to account for the fact that the trueblade has higher luck, higher speed than the Barbarians skill, and even can't be doubled by swallow strike. And vantage shenanigans and also flowing strike giving +30 Avoid on the Trueblade's turn(basically making him unhittable on his turn to the majority of the classes).

was speaking in a strictly Lance Fighter promotion situation. I definitely would've picked Trueblade otherwise. but also Holy Lancer makes more sense to stack 4 skills in the situation before (versus Basara doing it) and have better crit chance

(and this topic has been off-topic since comment ~#11 x_x)

Edited August 7, 2015 by GoXDS

[Psyruby]

was speaking in a strictly Lance Fighter promotion situation. I definitely would've picked Trueblade otherwise. but also Holy Lancer makes more sense to stack 4 skills in the situation before (versus Basara doing it) and have better crit chance

(and this topic has been off-topic since comment ~#11 x_x)

Well, to me the answer was straight forward. Counter isn't broken. They gave it EXACTLY the right condition. It functions as a punishing skill, and absolutely works as one. It doesn't work too well, it just works.

[Tamarsamar]

Well, to me the answer was straight forward. Counter isn't broken. They gave it EXACTLY the right condition. It functions as a punishing skill, and absolutely works as one. It doesn't work too well, it just works.

I concur.