Yari Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) The man doesn't know wich woman it is. I don't think they call a donator everytime his sperm is used. Any other thing but that with the way she worded it I'm pretty sure that's rape. Edited August 6, 2015 by Yari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) but the point is that the donor knows he's a sperm donor. in the hypothetical, he doesn't. as far as i can tell, anyway. Edited August 6, 2015 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Deceitful, yes, thus immoral. Huge hypothetical if to suggest: what if the woman wanted a child and already had a partner/soulmate they couldn't have a biological child with, and was using a new 'other' only as a means of getting the biological child they wanted? What if this other never knew and never had contact with the woman again? I'd actually consider that less immoral. Well if the women was up front about her contraceptives (and to a somewhat lesser extent her motives). If your sleeping with someone you have to be aware of the possibility of a pregnancy regardless of your feelings or even what your using. Course the woman is still wrong to do it since there's much less complicated (though probably more costly) alternatives out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 If a woman is letting you know that she's not using birth control then it's not deceitful. That basically means you should act rationally and get a condom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze The Great Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 If a woman is letting you know that she's not using birth control then it's not deceitful. That basically means you should act rationally and get a condom. That's not what the hypothetical said. It said that the woman told her husband that she was on birth control, but she actually wasn't. In my mind, that is incredibly deceitful and wrong of someone to do. If a pair is at the stage of the relationship where they could potentially have children, then they should be open about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Well luckily I wasn't responding to your hypothetical, I was responding to OP's response. Edited August 6, 2015 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze The Great Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Well luckily I wasn't responding to your hypothetical, I was responding to OP's response. Ahh, you were responding to his second example. I assumed (mistakenly) that you were responding to his original hypothetical situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Reading this topic title immediately reminded me of the court case I read about awhile ago where a man lost a lawsuit to avoid paying child support after the lover he'd only ever had oral sex with saved his sperm in her mouth and later used it to impregnate herself. Some things are just fucked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 Reading this topic title immediately reminded me of the court case I read about awhile ago where a man lost a lawsuit to avoid paying child support after the lover he'd only ever had oral sex with saved his sperm in her mouth and later used it to impregnate herself. Some things are just fucked up. Wow. Her seriously lost that one? The feminist complain about the equal rights of women but there's some serious double standards when it comes to men, court and children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Wow. Her seriously lost that one? The feminist complain about the equal rights of women but there's some serious double standards when it comes to men, court and children.To be fair, that can be viewed as an isolated incident... though I do think that child support is an area where men are likely to get the shaft typically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Wow. Her seriously lost that one? The feminist complain about the equal rights of women but there's some serious double standards when it comes to men, court and children.If I recall correctly, the court said he could sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress, but he would still have to pay child support regardless of what the woman owed him due to the IIED. I'll look it up again when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Immoral. I've seen this happen in real life. I don't talk to her anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 no, it's a great counter. the man has to help take care of the child, which is usually uncomfortable, at best. women have to bear greater burden of child rearing as a result of biology, but don't let's pretend that saddling a man with care of an unwanted child is less significant. You need to look at it from her (extremely flawed) point of view. She's using female biology to support her argument. Thus, she'll handwave that with female biology (which is. . .true, because pregnancy isn't physically easy). Even if you (and you too Phoenix) think that it's a good analogy, it's not going to work on someone with her mindset. You'll think you won, she'll think she's won, and nothing will be gained from it. Now. . ."well, if you're defending a woman who gets pregnant by falsely claiming she's on birth control, does that mean you did that to my father?" might get the point across, but you'll make her mad. his mom is being incredibly silly (and sexist). just say the same words back to her but with the roles flipped and see if she still agrees. if she doesn't, then she should get the hint that she's wrong. "You're a boy, you wouldn't understand!" (what she'd say to handwave the argument, most likely. . .it's a bad argument, but you're dealing with someone who's not responding logically) Other possibilities include what I said to dondon. IMO an older woman would need to talk to her. . .one that's in her first marriage (which is steady), has never cheated, and has multiple children. It'll leave her unable to argue from a mother's point of view. Wow. Her seriously lost that one? The feminist complain about the equal rights of women but there's some serious double standards when it comes to men, court and children. The sexes aren't equal by a long shot, and this is only one of the disparities. However, feminism is another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Reading this topic title immediately reminded me of the court case I read about awhile ago where a man lost a lawsuit to avoid paying child support after the lover he'd only ever had oral sex with saved his sperm in her mouth and later used it to impregnate herself. Some things are just fucked up. Is this about the child Boris Becker (didn't know he) made with the black Russian lady? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saifors Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 When it comes to having a child we're talking about a big responsibility, you need to pay for his/her food, education and other things, already financially it takes quite a bit, you need to be able to have the kid be happy and lead a good life, for this both parents need to be prepared. Like everyone said having a kid without the other party's consent is a bad idea, for one this should've been something the couple in question talk about, beside financially taxing stuff, there's also a need to be mentally prepared, already in the beginning of newly-born's life it will be waking up it's parents in the middle of the night. Be it the woman tricking the man into it or vice-versa does not matter, either way it's highly immoral and will damage the relationship, in some, but not all cases leading to a divorce, which is even worse as, while I'm not a child of divorced parents myself, I know for a fact that this affects people badly. My father actually has a friend whose wife did this, they already had a 1-2 year old daughter and the wife wanted another one, the husband didn't, but the wife lied, saying she had taken the pill so now they have another daughter, while in the end all ended wlll, the husband was understandably kind of pissed the wife did that. Overall, things like this should be talked about as the adults the couple in question are, doing something behind your parter's back is immature and inconsiderate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borz Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 You need to look at it from her (extremely flawed) point of view. She's using female biology to support her argument. Thus, she'll handwave that with female biology (which is. . .true, because pregnancy isn't physically easy). What about using male biology to justify rape? Maybe that would get the point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 You need to look at it from her (extremely flawed) point of view. She's using female biology to support her argument. Thus, she'll handwave that with female biology (which is. . .true, because pregnancy isn't physically easy). Even if you (and you too Phoenix) think that it's a good analogy, it's not going to work on someone with her mindset. You'll think you won, she'll think she's won, and nothing will be gained from it. an analogy that is good remains good regardless of whether a deranged person agrees or disagrees with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) Is this about the child Boris Becker (didn't know he) made with the black Russian lady? http://oi58.tinypic.com/2r5rygx.jpg No, it's Phillips v Irons. I couldn't find a copy of the actual court opinion, so settling with a decent looking legal blog analysis is going to have to do. Also, in case it wasn't clear already, as a libertarian, I find the use deception like this on the part of a woman (or man) to be morally appalling. Initiation of force or fraud is indefensible. Edited August 7, 2015 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 What about using male biology to justify rape? Maybe that would get the point across. That would work! an analogy that is good remains good regardless of whether a deranged person agrees or disagrees with it. If you're doing this for your own self-satisfaction with no regards to the other person, sure. If you're doing this as an educational exercise, it fails. Context and the other person's views and logic must be taken into consideration when engaging in the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 What about using male biology to justify rape? Maybe that would get the point across. I did suggest that at the time. I think the reply was something along the lines of it's not a matter of right and wrong. I feel I should stress that my mother is overall a lovely (if quite unreasonable) person overall. This is just one isolated incident of incomprehensible values. I know none of you will ever meet her but I still don't want to sully her good name by making her look like nothing but a sexist maniac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) i think this discussion has forgotten about your actual mom, and has extended to a general, "how do you get a woman who actually believes this to change?" i do feel the need to note, though, that perhaps your mom should lose some points for this. i mean, she thinks it's okay to lie to one's partner to have a baby, because if it were left to the (male) partner, we'd be extinct. that shows a pretty significant misunderstanding and offensive view of both sexes, not just males. i mean, my mom works extremely hard for me and i love her dearly. overall she's a wise person and all that good stuff, but she still believes humans aren't responsible for our current climate change crisis. my mom exhibits the same fundamental misunderstanding of science often seen on this very forum and i know for certain she doesn't listen to reasonable arguments. because of that, she still loses points in my book (respect). and one may say that we shouldn't blame people for these sorts of beliefs because they're products of their environment. but part of being a rational thinker is being able to alienate yourself from indoctrinations and think for yourself. so there's really no excuse. That would work!If you're doing this for your own self-satisfaction with no regards to the other person, sure. If you're doing this as an educational exercise, it fails. Context and the other person's views and logic must be taken into consideration when engaging in the latter. as above, it wouldn't work. if a person is either incapable of reason or unwilling to use reason, then it's not reasonable arguments that fail, it's the person. if a person reads my counter and instantly thinks, "yeah but women get pregant!!" that shows the person isn't looking to change their opinion. even when presented a rational argument directly in opposition to one's irrational opinion, change doesn't happen. it's an unwillingness to accept anything except what one may already believe. textbook definition of close-minded. Edited August 7, 2015 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) If you're doing this for your own self-satisfaction with no regards to the other person, sure. If you're doing this as an educational exercise, it fails. Context and the other person's views and logic must be taken into consideration when engaging in the latter. right, okay. your initial post was: Would love to see a good counter to Mom's argument, but I don't think this is it. which means that you don't think it's a good counter. the problem is that it's a good counter. the roles are reversed and the morality of the hypothetical doesn't change. it would still be a good counter even if a person isn't convinced by it because that person probably isn't seeking to be convinced by it. you're claiming that you know this person's derangement well enough that you can assess the quality of an argument from the imaginary point of view that you're attributing to this person - well enough to dismiss phoenix wright's post. there are two possible conclusions: either you share this point of view or you have no idea what you're talking about, and bayesian probability suggests to me the latter. Edited August 7, 2015 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionordeQuester Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Hmm...I dunno. It WAS definitely a terrible thing for the woman to do, tricking her husband like that. On the other hand though, it's not as though she had much to gain. I mean, raising a kid is...pretty difficult, no matter how you approach it. And pregnancy is it's own special kind of agony.... So, what she did was definitely wrong, but I'm not sure I'd call her a bad person or anything. A naive person, maybe. Shortsighted, oh definitely. And of course, dishonest to the 9th degree, which is in itself will cause huge problems in the relationship. And of course, it definitely makes me question just how good their relationship actually is...but it's still not something I'd likely divorce her for. So my opinion? What she did was wrong, she should be ashamed of herself, and she's definitely not winning any role model awards...but that doesn't mean she's a horrible person. Kind of like what we think of when we're talking about a stereotypical gambler, or drunkard. What they're doing is wrong, and definitely destructive...but at the same time, I feel pity for them more than I feel resentment. Is what I'm saying making any sense? IMPORTANT EDIT: That said though, my statements only apply to if she's only done something like that once. If she KEEPS on doing that, in spite of her husband, friends, or other people trying to reason with her, then yeah, that's some serious spousal abuse right now, and becomes something more than just a foolish mistake. Edited August 8, 2015 by FionordeQuester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 Yeah I hear you. From the start I was kind of viewing it in the same range as adultery (though somewhat worse since your involving the future of a child in it). You're not evil for doing it and it shouldn't be criminalized but it's not going to lead to good things, will generally ruin everyone's day and is a clear result of some other underlying issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Hmm...I dunno. It WAS definitely a terrible thing for the woman to do, tricking her husband like that. On the other hand though, it's not as though she had much to gain. I mean, raising a kid is...pretty difficult, no matter how you approach it. And pregnancy is it's own special kind of agony.... So, what she did was definitely wrong, but I'm not sure I'd call her a bad person or anything. A naive person, maybe. Shortsighted, oh definitely. And of course, dishonest to the 9th degree, which is in itself will cause huge problems in the relationship. And of course, it definitely makes me question just how good their relationship actually is...but it's still not something I'd likely divorce her for. So my opinion? What she did was wrong, she should be ashamed of herself, and she's definitely not winning any role model awards...but that doesn't mean she's a horrible person. Kind of like what we think of when we're talking about a stereotypical gambler, or drunkard. What they're doing is wrong, and definitely destructive...but at the same time, I feel pity for them more than I feel resentment. Is what I'm saying making any sense? IMPORTANT EDIT: That said though, my statements only apply to if she's only done something like that once. If she KEEPS on doing that, in spite of her husband, friends, or other people trying to reason with her, then yeah, that's some serious spousal abuse right now, and becomes something more than just a foolish mistake. i don't see how that's not a criminal act, to be completely honest. first of all, if a the husband does not want a child, and the wife does, the couple shouldn't be together. secondly, this post is pretty offensive. are you saying women are so infatuated with having children that they can't control themselves, akin to an addict? are women addicted to children in your worldview? you feel pity for a woman that would deceive her husband so that she could have a child? and let's get rid of gender here: you feel pity for a partner that would deceive their significant other in bringing into the world (or from adoption) a child that they have to bathe, feed, shelter, care for? by law, no less? as in, if the spouse chooses not to, they'd go to jail? (you don't have a choice to take care of your child once they're born.) that is a dangerous point of view, there's no other way i can say that. with regards to your edit, it becomes abundantly clear that you don't quite understand how much work, time, and money go into caring for a single child, let alone multiple. Edited August 8, 2015 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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