Sakurai commenting about "extra features"

[Alisa180]

To me, the inclusion of "bad" (to put it in general terms) features clearly lowers the quality of the game overall, even if they're optional.

Why? Consider this question: does the removal of optional, good features lower the quality of the game? For example, would removing support conversations in FE make it a worse game (since support convos don't effect gameplay)?​

I hope the answer is clearly yes.

Then, why doesn't the removal of optional, bad features raise the quality of the game? The fact that it's optional doesn't matter here. All that matters is that it's included (and advertised!) The fact that you don't have to participate in questionably intimate contact with your 12-year-old sister doesn't erase the fact that you can.

EDIT: Although, I suppose this isn't an issue if you like Amie. In that case, ignore this post. For me, I find it completely unnecessary and cringe-worthy at the S-rank.

Uh, while I confess I'm not completely familiar with how it works, don't Support levels affect Pair-Up like in Awakening? So, in that sense, Support convos do affect gameplay? (Since viewing them raises the Support level of the involved units, and affects Pair-Up) And thus, aren't exactly optional in the sense My Room is? (I *refuse* to refer to it as Amie out of a life-long respect for Pokemon.)

EDIT: To contribute to this discussion, Amie in Pokemon *does* affect gameplay, even if its only in minor ways. Raising affection levels in Amie gives Pokemon a 1.5x experience boost, raises their critical hit rate, and even give them a chance to shake off status effects on their own without the use of a move or items (the latter two don't apply to Wi-Fi battles, naturally). And Eevee requires two hearts of affection in Amie (and must know a Fairy-type move) in order to evolve into Sylveon. None of those benefits can be obtained without Amie, and its often recommended to have a Pokemon you're leveling to have at least two Amie hearts so they can get the experience boost.

If my knowledge is correct, all My Room does is raise the Support level of one character once per chapter (or so I've heard). And there are plenty of other ways to raise Support levels, and you don't eve have to have the My Room in the first place. So in that sense, My Room is even more optional then the Amie its so often compared to.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Alisa180

[Fly or Die]

Uh, while I confess I'm not completely familiar with how it works, don't Support levels affect Pair-Up like in Awakening? So, in that sense, Support convos do affect gameplay? (Since viewing them raises the Support level of the involved units, and affects Pair-Up) And thus, aren't exactly optional in the sense My Room is? (I *refuse* to refer to it as Amie out of a life-long respect for Pokemon.)

EDIT: To contribute to this discussion, Amie in Pokemon *does* affect gameplay, even if its only in minor ways. Raising affection levels in Amie gives Pokemon a 1.5x experience boost, raises their critical hit rate, and even give them a chance to shake off status effects on their own without the use of a move or items (the latter two don't apply to Wi-Fi battles, naturally). And Eevee requires two hearts of affection in Amie (and must know a Fairy-type move) in order to evolve into Sylveon. None of those benefits can be obtained without Amie, and its often recommended to have a Pokemon you're leveling to have at least two Amie hearts so they can get the experience boost.

If my knowledge is correct, all My Room does is raise the Support level of one character once per chapter (or so I've heard). And there are plenty of other ways to raise Support levels, and you don't eve have to have the My Room in the first place. So in that sense, My Room is even more optional then the Amie its so often compared to.

I'm referring to support conversations, not support levels themselves. Think Shadow Dragon. The conversations are just for character/world-building; they don't effect gameplay.

My Room might be more optional than Amie, but my original point still stands: the optionality is irrelevant.

[Alisa180]

I'm referring to support conversations, not support levels themselves. Think Shadow Dragon. The conversations are just for character/world-building; they don't effect gameplay.

My Room might be more optional than Amie, but my original point still stands: the optionality is irrelevant.

Well...

Honestly, I think those who say its optional and you can just ignore it have a point. A good comparison from Pokemon would be Super Training. Super Training is a way to raise your Pokemon's stats, and like My Room, was heavily advertised and is completely optional. Any competitive battler worth their salt would tell you Super Training is a boring, repetitive, and inefficient way to raise stats. There are actually other, more efficient methods, including one that allows you to fully train your Pokemon in a quarter of the time ST normally takes.

You can go the whole game without touching Super Training, and use the other methods to raise your Pokemon stats instead. The inclusion of ST literally doesn't affect those who dislike it, as they can very easily chose to ignore it. At the same time, I can appreciate what ST brings to those who do use it (those who aren't aware of the other methods due to being more casual) so I'm not opposed to ST. I actually used it myself in Y version before learning of the other methods, and proceeded to go the whole of Omega Ruby without once touching it. It had zero impact on my experience.

Same deal here. While what it brings to those who use it is more, er, questionable, from the sound of it My Room is just as optional as Super Training is. I was opposed too, before I learned of that, and now I'm more or less indifferent to its inclusion (I'm not buying Fates for a different reason).

Edited August 8, 2015 by Alisa180

[Kiseki]

I honestly have no clue of what's going on in this thread anymore.

Say you buy a boxed lunch and it happens to contain a variety of foods, including one you hate. Even if you love everything else about the meal, are you going to single out the one food you dislike and lambast the entire meal for it? What about the people who happen to love that food? Is a meal only worth it insofar as it caters to your each and every preference?

This could really go for just about anything. Say you're playing a trading card game with a friend and you don't like one of the mechanics in said game or maybe you don't like one of the cards' effects. Others will still use it, but that doesn't mean you should too. Say you're in a Pokemon battle and you don't like the moves your opponent gave to their Pokemon (ex. Offensive moves on a Defensive Pokemon). They'll still use it because it's an option and you may not like it, but they do and will still use it. Say you don't like a mechanic/feature put into the latest Smash Bros installment, yet there are others out there who will enjoy said mechanic/feature and will continue to do so. Let's say that so many people are getting psyched about the "next big thing" and you absolutely hate it. Same thing, just don't mind them.

Say that you don't like a feature in the new Fire Emblem game. Same. Freaking. Deal. If you don't like it, then let others who do like it enjoy it. Don't try to ruin a game for everyone just because of your bias towards stuff is so limited.

@ Smash Clones

Characters are often included in crossover games like Smash to appease to the people who like said character. I know two people in my area who were disappointed that Dr. Mario didn't make it into Brawl but were loudly ecstatic when he showed up in Smash 4. And let's not forget about the larger majority of FE13 fans who don't ever come here who are glad that Lucina is playable. Because we people at Serenes are a really small majority of FE's large community.

And let's face it: Who here has even heard of Shulk before he was revealed? Same goes for Dark Pit for those who have never played (or even heard about) Kid Icarus Uprising. Characters can also be included so that they are more known to the public and others will like it.

Sakurai: "From a developer’s point of view, I suppose it’s better not to force users to play these extra features in order to beat a game. Making users play a bunch of minigames only invites unwanted criticism, and I think that makes sense."

Me: . . . *stares at all the Smash Tour-related Wii U Challenges*

Well, it's the first time Sakurai's doing something like this, right? It won't necessarily go as planned on the first try, you know.

Honestly, I think those who say its optional and you can just ignore it have a point. A good comparison from Pokemon would be Super Training. Super Training is a way to raise your Pokemon's stats, and like My Room, was heavily advertised and is completely optional. Any competitive battler worth their salt would tell you Super Training is a boring, repetitive, and inefficient way to raise stats. There are actually other, more efficient methods, including one that allows you to fully train your Pokemon in a quarter of the time ST normally takes.

If there's anything Super Training does, it's that it auto-caps EVs at 252 rather than go over through traditional means. And there's also the possibility of getting Evolutionary items that you would normally have very few or none of.

After I got my Pokemon to have Pokerus (legitimately and before beating the E4, btw), I only used Super Training to get Evolutionary items and cap EVs from 250 to 252. Before then, I was using it only if I found a stat to be low and needing improvement.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Kiseki

[PuffPuff]

Sakurai's been playing IF/Fates? Kamui and Aqua confirmed for Smash 5

I don't know about Kamui. Since they strongly are going to use Robin again if he brings enough popularity into the game! Aqua's chance is as strong as Ike's.

I do have considerably less qualms with Amie for some reason than I do with Phoenix Mode (although I would still like it to go away and never come back). Probably because after hearing about the giant mess the game's story is, and looking at quite a few cringeworthy supports (Don't get me wrong they're a lot of good ones but some of them are god awful like Felicia/Pieri) I've lost all hope for a decent story, so I don't mind that it's at odds with story.

I don't think he was implying it was.

An option that almost everyone will not use since Casual is already more than enough. A mode that I only entirely use on Lunatic+. It's still ridiculously hard with it! Everything else, Classic...because it really won't be a strategy game without it! Phoenix Mode can be useful for younger audiences under the age of 10. At least they can join the fun now! :D

Sakurai just doesn't want to admit what a waste of time Smash Tour was

Yeah.

Why don't we have the Subspace Em-missionary return already?

[Dark Sage]

I said it's at odds with the story, that is not the same as affecting the story. Rubbing on your units face does not once leave an impact on the actual plot. You have yet to give an example of it doing so. It is, again, fluff, just like those costumes. Hell, the costumes are "worst", because you can be in a silly suit while being fucked by zombies.

It's not directly affecting the story no, but it prevents me from taking characters seriously and therefore, ruins my ability to take the story seriously. Like, there's Belka who's supposed to be this emotionally stunted assassin with a dark past who nobody wants to fuck with, basically a female Jaffar. And yet I can invite her to my treehouse and touch her and grope her while she coos and preens happily. How am I supposed to by her as a dark, brooding badass who nobody fucks with when I can do stuff to her that she shouldn't put up with without any objections? It's like that with supports too, even if you marry your siblings, it changes none of the dialogue, you're still they're onii-san~, which is really, really unnecessarily creepy.

Furthermore, the common counterargument is that "well the gameplay benefits are so minimal so it's ok if you ignore it" but we judge artwork based on how each of its parts fit together and how it affects the overall work. Something extraneous like amie adds nothing as you'll admit; actually, it even detracts because there's no point to it existing. You could cut it from the game and nothing would change. If it doesn't mean anything, why is it there? And frankly, I don't even want the mechanic to be there in the first place since it affects the tone or the atmosphere in negative ways. It will always be in the back of my mind as I play the game. Why should games be exempt from such critique? This is why people don't see video games as an art form.

Let's look at those "legitimate points" again. He introduced tripping, which even he admitted was a mistake and removed it for the next game. That certainly doesn't make him incompetent. That makes him a responsible adult that owns up to his mistakes. And the other I believe was that he "routinely goes out of his way to fuck over melee players and advanced players for more casual fans". How does he do that exactly? Brawl was certainly made for a more casual audience, but that is only one game, one event. How does he routinely fuck them over? Did he build a time machine and retroactively turn each copy of Melee into Brawl or something? Hell, did Nintendo even send a cease and desist to the project M guys? I'm starting to wonder if you know what these words mean.

How about the constant contempt and condescension expressed towards those who play the game competitively and his frequent attempts to shut these people out, going so far as to say "play something else if you want a game with some competitive depth". How about his stubborn refusal to implement techniques that have as much competitive use as, say, wavedashing and L-canceling (and you don't even need to implement those exact mechanics). How about his poor design of basic game mechanics in Brawl? How about his inane reasoning that a fighting game cannot appeal to both a hardcore audience or a casual audience? How about his revisionist history bullshit about how Melee was too complicated for casual players (lmao) and that's why he needs to constantly gut strategic play and mechanics present in Melee? Keep in mind I barely play SSB and never played Melee competitively.

In any case, none of this has any relevance on the issue of whether optional features should be critiqued or ignored in a video game, so let's keep my ~true opinions~ on Sakurai-san out of this.

You're certainly free to disagree with his choices, but if you're throwing criticism at the guy, at least make them sound mature and well structured, you know, like a grown ass adult. What you're doing is throwing a hissy fit because he did something you didn't like. That is not him being incompetent, that's you being childish.

It's really quite amazing how butthurt you are over my choice of words about Sakurai. In any case, let's review my big list of insults about Sakurai:

"incompetent"

"failure at game design"

Yeah, I was insulting his abilities sure, but when the subject of game design pops up, calling his abilities into question when he's talking about good game design is legitimate. I'm not attacking his character (I'm sure he's a decent enough man) or his appearance, or anything else. These insults are present in two or three sentences of a long four paragraph post, so it's quite ridiculous that this is what is being focused on so much.

I didn't deny any of that. No where did I say it that it can't be critcized, nowhere did I say it doesn't affect the game in some way. I said it doesn't affect the story or the characters, which is 100% true. Nobody stops to say, "Hey Kamui, remember that time you rubbed my face? That was weird, but now I have enough strength to defeat my cancer!"

If Amie, marriage, children, or My Castle aren't relevant to the story or to anything at all really, why are they there? What's the point? For all the good they do to the narrative or gameplay, they really might as well not exist while contributing worse than nothing to the atmosphere and tone of the game as a whole, as well as the genuineness of the characterization. As I said before, it may not affect the story or characterization directly but it sure as shit does indirectly and that's still important. I don't think wanting characters who feel like real people and not toys and blow up dolls you can mess around with at your leisure is so much to ask for.

This is just... a stupid analogy. Like, I wanted to literally facepalm that was so stupid.Adding a "rape simulator" would bump this game up to porn, literally costing them 10 shit tons of yens, and forever driving their name into the dirt. Obviously, just from a business standpoint, pretty much nobody would greenlight such an idea, and Nintendo once owned love hotels.

Just because someone says they are cool with something, does not mean they are cool with everything. Forget equivalent, the two aren't even comparable

Yeah I know they're not exactly equivalent, which I pointed out in this post:

Note to those of lesser intellect: I am not saying FE Amie is comparable to a literal rape minigame. FE Amie is not even the main problem, it is a symptom of a much larger one and a lot of the complaints about the game would still apply if you cut the feature from the game.

The point of bringing up a rape minigame is to demonstrate how bad his logic is. This theoretical rape minigame is just as optional as Amie; you don't have to do it at all. By Sakurai's logic, there should be nothing wrong with implementing said minigame in. After all, if you find it offensive or morally repugnant, you can just use it and pretend it doesn't exist; in fact, since someone would enjoy it, it would be better to include it. This is taking Sakurai's reasoning to its ultimate conclusion, and as you pointed out yourself, that's not something you can ignore, its existence would be enough to turn someone off from the game, even if they don't have to touch it a single time. That's why his logic is so bad.

I find it incredibly odd that people want video games to be seen as an art form, on par with movies, literature, or painting. Yet when anyone actually applies the analysis used for these art forms with video games, whether it be examination of social issues or how different parts affect the overall quality of the work, people either get up in arms or dismiss it with "it's just a game lol" or "it's optional so who cares." It's like they want video games to have the prestige of other art forms without any of the depth, analysis, or responsibilities of said other art forms and that's why people don't take video games as an art form seriously.

[Kiseki]

Okay, seriously dude. Please. Just. Shut. Up.

First off, have you ever made a game? How would you even know what it's like to implement features, mechanics, etc.?

And how would you even know a thing about Wavedashing and stuff if you say you don't play Melee competitively?

Melee is an old game, having been released way back in 2001. That's all in the past, and any regular person would've learned a thing or two from then till now. Sakurai is no different. He and the dev team made the mistake of having kept Wavedashing in, which was originally just an exploit in the physic engine, believing it wouldn't impact the game. Obviously it did, and the dev team opted to use the Air Dodge mechanic used in Brawl and Smash 4 since then.

If anything, I'd ask that you please shut up about Sakurai's logic and how you feel he's incompetent as a game designer, because the more I read your long posts that I don't want to bother finishing, the more of a "Salty Ass Melee Fan who praises Melee like their God and doesn't know sh*t about Game Design" vibe I get from you.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Kiseki

[XeKr]

This should be obvious, but the whole point to My Room and similar mechanics is that while it makes some people uncomfortable or hate it, some people like/love it, and others don’t care. Nintendo, given Sakurai’s comments and their general design philosophy to widen accessibility, is therefore going to put it in (subject to design contraints) if they think/predict more people like it or are indifferent than not, increasing sales (they would probably say more people have “fun” too).

People like to bring up more extreme examples but they probably don’t honestly think those would improve sales. Nintendo is a company. Video games are an industry.

I suppose people tend to be disgusted by how economics work (lolkonami is another obvious recent example) but that’s a far bigger issue to describe, let alone begin to address.

Edited August 9, 2015 by XeKr

[Dark Sage]

Okay, seriously dude. Please. Just. Shut. Up.

First off, have you ever made a game? How would you even know what it's like to implement features, mechanics, etc.?

You do not need to be a game designer to critique poor game design, much like how you do not need to be a chef to judge that a gourmet meal is preferable over shit on a plate.

And how would you even know a thing about Wavedashing and stuff if you say you don't play Melee competitively?

Because I read about it? I watch videos about it? I have performed wavedashing and L-canceling myself before? There are tons of reasons.

The reason I don't play Melee competitively is because 1) I cannot be bothered to spend the hundreds of hours required to get to a tournament level, 2) I do not feel being a competitive melee player is a good use of my time and 3) even if I was a pro Melee player, I don't know anyone else who is and wouldn't be able to make good use of such skills.

Melee is an old game, having been released way back in 2001. That's all in the past, and any regular person would've learned a thing or two from then till now. Sakurai is no different. He and the dev team made the mistake of having kept Wavedashing in, which was originally just an exploit in the physic engine, believing it wouldn't impact the game. Obviously it did, and the dev team opted to use the Air Dodge mechanic used in Brawl and Smash 4 since then.

Age has very little to do with whether something is good game design. Super Mario Bros. came out in the 1980s and it's tenets of game design are still used to this day. It does a better job of teaching new players and easing into the game than many modern games today; The very first screen is set up so that the player can always get a mushroom and to teach you "Goomba bad, Blocks good, and stuff bounces off pipes and Goombas." Even today, it is a shining example of organic and excellent game design.

What is my point? The point is that dismissing games such as Melee for what they've accomplished because they're old is rather asinine. Newer stuff is not always better; game designers can actually get somewhat worse, as Brawl proves. There are a lot of lessons in design that are missed if you refuse to look at its impact or its strengths because "lol it's 15 years old."

On another note, I don't really give a shit if Sakurai never intended for wavedashing to exist or for it to have an impact on the competitive metagame. Combos in Street Fighter 2 were exploits not intended by the developers but they were kept and built upon in later entries because of the positive aspects the exploit brought to the game. It is possible for games to be smarter than their developers and the inclusion of combos in not just Street Fighter but in other fighting games as a whole shows that developer intent is not God.

If anything, I'd ask that you please shut up about Sakurai's logic and how you feel he's incompetent as a game designer, because the more I read your long posts that I don't want to bother finishing, the more of a "Salty Ass Melee Fan who praises Melee like their God and doesn't know sh*t about Game Design" vibe I get from you.

I just fucking said I barely play Melee and in this post, I have clarified that I have little interest in pursuing competitive play. How the fuck can I be salty about a game I don't even care that much about? If anyone is coming off like an idiot, it's you because Smash was barely relevant to my posts and you and a couple of other guys have focused almost entirely on it. Just because you're butthurt that I think Sakurai isn't very good doesn't negate the points I (and dondon and Irysa) have made in this thread.

I will talk about Sakurai's logic whenever I please.

[Shrouded In Myth]

This should be obvious, but the whole point to My Room and similar mechanics is that while it makes some people uncomfortable or hate it, some people like/love it, and others don’t care. Nintendo, given Sakurai’s comments and their general design philosophy to widen accessibility, is therefore going to put it in if they think/predict more people like it or are indifferent than not, increasing sales (they would probably say more people have “fun” too).

People like to bring up more extreme examples but they probably don’t honestly think those would improve sales. Nintendo is a company. Video games are an industry.

I suppose people tend to be disgusted by how economics work (lolkonami is an obvious recent example) but that’s a far bigger issue to describe, let alone begin to address.

But My Room doesn't widen accessibility, if anything it limits it. Many people would be turned off by it even being in the game, even if it is optional.

Which group will be persuaded to buy this game cause of My Room? The Otaku and Fujoshi. I'm pretty sure they are looked down in Japan as much as they are in the West.

The wider audience may not get Fates since of its association with these groups. The sales numbers won't reflect that since they make up a market majority despite them being a sub-cultural

minority since they are willing to spend a lot of money on their leisure, while the mainstream isn't willing to spend that much money.

And yes these disgusting business practices are the subject of another discussion, but I always felt Nintendo never needed to do that.

Their business philosophy seemed to be that their games would sell based on their quality alone, no tricks needed. Check out their 2014 E3 stream

which people praised because while other companies were trying to deceive their customers, Nintendo had so much confidence in their games they

put out in the open for people to see they are good enough for a purchase.

[XeKr]

Logically, Nintendo/IS (because they have proven to be fair at business in the vg industry) probably thinks they’ll get more sales then they lose, or the mechanic wouldn’t be in. This is obviously speculation though, we don’t know actually how their executives/developers are thinking.

You say “many people” may not get the game because of this, but that’s also speculation. If you're judging from internet reaction or anecdote, note that generally the people who visit/post on fanboards are a very small minority of consumers (even then, see a poll here http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54958)

Note, I said way earlier in this topic that I think the mechanics as is will hurt sales in the west. (speculation)

It clearly has not hurt sales in Japan (fact). We can only guess what the sales would be if it were not in the game (speculation), but it's a fairly futile exercise beyond surface-level observations.

Edited August 9, 2015 by XeKr

[Kiseki]

I just fucking said I barely play Melee and in this post, I have clarified that I have little interest in pursuing competitive play. How the fuck can I be salty about a game I don't even care that much about? If anyone is coming off like an idiot, it's you because Smash was barely relevant to my posts and you and a couple of other guys have focused almost entirely on it. Just because you're butthurt that I think Sakurai isn't very good doesn't negate the points I (and dondon and Irysa) have made in this thread.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that.

How about the constant contempt and condescension expressed towards those who play the game competitively and his frequent attempts to shut these people out, going so far as to say "play something else if you want a game with some competitive depth". How about his stubborn refusal to implement techniques that have as much competitive use as, say, wavedashing and L-canceling (and you don't even need to implement those exact mechanics). How about his poor design of basic game mechanics in Brawl? How about his inane reasoning that a fighting game cannot appeal to both a hardcore audience or a casual audience? How about his revisionist history bullshit about how Melee was too complicated for casual players (lmao) and that's why he needs to constantly gut strategic play and mechanics present in Melee? Keep in mind I barely play SSB and never played Melee competitively.

In any case, none of this has any relevance on the issue of whether optional features should be critiqued or ignored in a video game, so let's keep my ~true opinions~ on Sakurai-san out of this.

It's really quite amazing how butthurt you are over my choice of words about Sakurai. In any case, let's review my big list of insults about Sakurai:

"incompetent"

"failure at game design"

Yeah, I was insulting his abilities sure, but when the subject of game design pops up, calling his abilities into question when he's talking about good game design is legitimate. I'm not attacking his character (I'm sure he's a decent enough man) or his appearance, or anything else. These insults are present in two or three sentences of a long four paragraph post, so it's quite ridiculous that this is what is being focused on so much.

This definitely looks like something a "Salty Ass Melee Fan who praises Melee like their God and doesn't know sh*t about Game Design" would say. My apologies if I have mistook you for one, but that's what it felt like.

And sure, go on ahead and talk about Sakurai's logic all you want. No one's stopping you.

But My Room doesn't widen accessibility, if anything it limits it. Many people would be turned off by it even being in the game, even if it is optional.

Sadly enough, the "many people" who would be turned off are a rather small majority of the massive number of other people who are turned on.

[Shrouded In Myth]

I'm aware that fanboards make up the minority, which is why I say that most people will be bothered by it.

The boards are filled with Otaku and Fujoshi who are accustomed to these sorts of features and even then a sizable portion of them are bothered by skinship.

Imagine the average Japanese citizen, aka not Otaku or Fujoshi, I'm willing to bet that they would be bothered by skinship and wouldn't want to be seen playing that.

This is purely speculation though. Although I'm interested why you think it will hurt sales in the West but not in Japan.

Based on Sakurai's comments and this petition from the Japanese fanbase, it seems there was some sort of outcry there too.

http://feifgannbare.jimdo.com/

It seems it sold well despite those features, not because of them, and maybe it could have sold more if it didn't have those features. (speculation)

[NeptuniasBeard]

Yeah I know they're not exactly equivalent, which I pointed out in this post:

The point of bringing up a rape minigame is to demonstrate how bad his logic is. This theoretical rape minigame is just as optional as Amie; you don't have to do it at all. By Sakurai's logic, there should be nothing wrong with implementing said minigame in. After all, if you find it offensive or morally repugnant, you can just use it and pretend it doesn't exist; in fact, since someone would enjoy it, it would be better to include it. This is taking Sakurai's reasoning to its ultimate conclusion, and as you pointed out yourself, that's not something you can ignore, its existence would be enough to turn someone off from the game, even if they don't have to touch it a single time. That's why his logic is so bad.

And I'm saying your theoretical minigame ignores one very important factor, the ratings board. While the player can ignore the rape minigame, it's in their job description that they can't. The game would never see the light of the mainstream market, and they would lose a shit ton of cash. It's one thing to put in a feature some may not like, most times, they'll still buy it. It's another to put in a feature that will fuck you over and cost you a sizeable chunk of the market on principle of being a porn game.

What you're doing is using the slippery slope fallacy. Just because someone's okay with A does not mean they think B would also be okay. I may be cool with my friend punching me in the arm, at least to the point I won't flip out and risk our friendship. The ultimate conclusion of that would be that I must be cool with him shooting me in the arm. You hopefully see that this is an absurd line of reasoning.

I find it incredibly odd that people want video games to be seen as an art form, on par with movies, literature, or painting. Yet when anyone actually applies the analysis used for these art forms with video games, whether it be examination of social issues or how different parts affect the overall quality of the work, people either get up in arms or dismiss it with "it's just a game lol" or "it's optional so who cares." It's like they want video games to have the prestige of other art forms without any of the depth, analysis, or responsibilities of said other art forms and that's why people don't take video games as an art form seriously.

I am all for games being art. And I treat it like any other form of art. Games will have objectionable content that will be analyzed, criticized, and discussed. There will be subjectivly good and bad games, there will be objectively good and bad games. And just like any movie, book, painting, etc, I don't accenuate the negative, I look at the whole package. Yeah, the Amie feature is dumb, I can't see it holding my interest at all, but the overall game still has plenty of appeal, for me. Now, if the whole game was just this feature, then I, and I'm sure many others would be all "WTF is this shit?"

YOU have major problems with it, that's fine, but you have to remember that it's still how you personally feel about this piece of art. That's what makes it art, it brings out different feelings for different people. For you and some others, this feature just majorly drags the whole work down. For me and some others, it's negligible to the whole package. For some, it's the best thing ever.

And people dismissing a game as "lol just a video game" doesn't make it not art, or make video games as a whole unable to be taken seriously. There are stupid movies, books, and paintings, and people will dismiss it as such. Being art does not equal being good. A drawn dick on miiverse is art.

[arvilino]

I'm aware that fanboards make up the minority, which is why I say that most people will be bothered by it.

The boards are filled with Otaku and Fujoshi who are accustomed to these sorts of features and even then a sizable portion of them are bothered by skinship.

Imagine the average Japanese citizen, aka not Otaku or Fujoshi, I'm willing to bet that they would be bothered by skinship and wouldn't want to be seen playing that.

This is purely speculation though. Although I'm interested why you think it will hurt sales in the West but not in Japan.

Based on Sakurai's comments and this petition from the Japanese fanbase, it seems there was some sort of outcry there too.

http://feifgannbare.jimdo.com/

It seems it sold well despite those features, not because of them, and maybe it could have sold more if it didn't have those features. (speculation)

It is speclation and a dubious one at that. I have been checking the Japanese charts and the game in a month sold over 500k separate copies(retail Hoshido, + Nohr + Special edition + Digital edition, not including DLC) making it the 2nd highest selling in Japan and is still selling ~10 thousand each week(which suggests Word of Mouth is actually quite good) where the games usually dropped into oblivion after the first couple weeks. Awakening took 3 years to sell 480k. I mention it time and time again but appeal like that does not come from Otaku, Otaku games routinely sell less than the worst selling Fire Emblem games and this entry in Japan alone is positioned to sell more than a number of entries Fire Emblem have worldwide and already has.

One thing I noticed is how close to release they revealed the My Castle mechanic and the focus they gave it in Magazines with that dedicated video and inclusion in a JP Nintendo Direct. This generation the best selling series in Japan isn't Pokemon, Animal Crossing is actually edging it out and the spn-off Happy Home designer sold collosally well. Given how they presented the video Jackob and Felicia may be analogous to Isabelle It's likely they were going for the giant Animal Crossing fanbase and realise some of the base menus could be expanded into a custom town and supports expanded in a way.

A side effect is that yeah it'd simulataneously appeal to an otaku, but given the numbers of the game I think Nintendo and IS efforts are a result of a net was cast wide rather than narrow when they had the My mechanics in-mind. They knew My Castle would be a net increase the appeal, so they were free to experiment with the mechanics within it even if it doesn't please certain players. It's better they have amie in to gauge the appeal and get feedback so they can see what parts of My Castle are well liked, what aren't and why, what could be improved.

A few petty players acting like the sky is falling because of one of the mehanics, the only My Castle feature you obtain the same rewards elsewhere isn't to their liking means very little. If IS thought every player would like it or that Amie and rubbing the face of characters was what the game is all about it'd give rewards you couldn't get elsewhere or be mandatory for Corrin's support, they could also be aware people think it's the worst thing ever but if game devs chose not to include any feature because someone might hate it a series would stagnate and it'd be impossible to get many new players to try it unless the base game is monsterously popular.

Edited August 9, 2015 by arvilino

[Scrublord]

I don't think the "it's optional, ignore it" argument really works here. I think it's like saying that just because grinding is optional in Awakening, you can't say that it's an easy game, since you can just ignore it. Even if you do, it's still there, and by default that ends up impacting the game. In this case, even if you ignore FE Amie, it's still in the game, and that by default undermines the tone of the game and makes it seem like a softer version of an otaku/fujoshi dating sim, which I think people have a right to complain about.

In my opinion Sakurai is wrong in comparing it to the optional features in SSB4, because those really don't affect the game or the player in any way (pretty much because it has nothing it can affect, really), while something like grinding being present or Amie definitely does, even if not for everyone. It's kind of like saying that because you can just ignore the fact that your business client hates cheese as it's not relevant (unless you're running a cheese business, I guess), you can just ignore the fact that your client holds racist views since technically that's not relevant either. Like, sure, you can just ignore the feature, but it still ends up affecting the whole thing in this case, so you have a valid reason to criticise the feature (and the entire thing).

(On a side note, I'm pretty sure the fanservice-y side of FE14 like FE Amie positively impacted its sales, bringing in the money of the otaku/fujoshi crowd (for whom Phoenix Mode was probably designed for, since they probably don't care about the difficult gameplay). But a game can be trashy and sell well at the same time, like Fifty Shades of Grey, so that's not really relevant in terms of game quality.)

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I don't think the "it's optional, ignore it" argument really works here. I think it's like saying that just because grinding is optional in Awakening, you can't say that it's an easy game, since you can just ignore it. Even if you do, it's still there, and by default that ends up impacting the game. In this case, even if you ignore FE Amie, it's still in the game, and that by default undermines the tone of the game and makes it seem like a softer version of an otaku/fujoshi dating sim, which I think people have a right to complain about.

I like this.

TL;DR: "It isn't an optional feature. If I don't make any of my characters get married, it won't change that the entire support system is designed around the characters getting married." - VirusLord

The same applies in this Amie thing and what it's for.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Irysa]

I'm aware that fanboards make up the minority, which is why I say that most people will be bothered by it.

Well the thing is, subcultures that don't neccessarily represent the larger opinions of the populace at whole, but in Japan, there has been an increasing trend for most people to simply buy less and buy cheaper, lower quality goods in the last couple of decades. Comparatively, the Otaku subculture is reliable since they are dedicated consumers. This article is a few years old, but it's still relevant in explaining how this came to be. A lot of things about how Fates has been released, priced, and marketed and developed fit the bill to be honest, what with them openly appealing to siscons in pre release articles, jacking the pricing up (Have you seen the price for Anime BDs over there?) and other various elements in the game's aesthetical principles.

I think you'd find that there are a relatively large amount of people in the 3ds userbase who dislike it, but most of them probably wouldn't get the game anyway.

XeKr is undoubtedly correct that money talks, and it's not like this has only affected Fire Emblem as a franchise. It's a much larger trend. Games simply cost too much to make these days, so if you actually care, you have to look to indie or small devs.

Or eccentrics like Yoko Taro who just get the Yakuza to threaten Square Enix to fund his bizzare games.

YOU have major problems with it, that's fine, but you have to remember that it's still how you personally feel about this piece of art. That's what makes it art, it brings out different feelings for different people. For you and some others, this feature just majorly drags the whole work down. For me and some others, it's negligible to the whole package. For some, it's the best thing ever.

What does this add to the game? Some people think it's cute or funny, others have probably jacked off to hearing their favourite seiyuu say lewd things. Is this worth what it does to the meta-narrative? One simply doesn't have to not care about the feature specifically or enjoy it to condone it, they have to not give a shit about the sincerity of the game's characterisation. This kind of attitude is exactly the problem; yes, you should give a shit, because not striving or expecting better in narrative focused material is causing game writing to stagnate. Passively accepting shitty things only enforces a status quo; things can't get better.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Irysa

[arvilino]

I like this.

TL;DR: "It isn't an optional feature. If I don't make any of my characters get married, it won't change that the entire support system is designed around the characters getting married." - VirusLord

The same applies in this Amie thing and what it's for.

That isn't really true though and runs opposite to what scrublord said you quoted, most supports don't actually have a romantic build up or direction until the S-rank. The S-rank's typically have a character reflecting on how through their time together they realised they love the other.The support system only really accommodates the ability to marry most male/female charcters as one of many purposes flavour and gameplay-wise. The fact it allows marriage betweeen most characters doesn't mean the entirity of it is centred or designed around it when really only S-rank is. The only part of the game that is designed around marriage are the children characters.

In the case of amie it's not just optional as in "you don't have to do it but you'll miss(insert item,character, support convo)", you actually can 100% the game and access every character, item, weapon, support rank, bonuses and chapter without it. How is the game or support system specifically designed around the player using amie?

Edited August 9, 2015 by arvilino

[Scrublord]

That isn't really true though and runs opposite to what scrublord said you quoted, most supports don't actually have a romantic build up or direction until the S-rank. The S-rank's typically have a character reflecting on how through their time together they realised they love the other.The support system only really accommodates the ability to marry most male/female charcters as one of many purposes flavour and gameplay-wise. The fact it allows marriage betweeen most characters doesn't mean the entirity of it is centred or designed around it when really only S-rank is. The only part of the game that is designed around marriage are the children characters.

In the case of amie it's not just optional as in "you don't have to do it but you'll miss(insert item,character, support convo)", you actually can 100% the game and access every character, item, weapon, support rank, bonuses and chapter without it. How is the game or support system specifically designed around the player using amie?

Well, I don't think it was a perfect tl;dr, but I don't think it was going against what I was saying or anything...

As I said, this isn't like the "ignoring that my business client hates cheese" kind of optional, it's the "ignoring that my business client hates black people" kind of optional. The business side might not be affected to a great degree (in this case the gameplay), but the client and your perception of them (in this case the game in its entirety) is. Sure, you can do your business with them perfectly fine if you want while ignoring their other traits, but those traits do not just exist in a vacuum, and you can decide for yourself if you really want to do business with someone like that.

tl;dr You can't just handwave optional features out of existence by ignoring them. Just because you can just ignore that something exists and carry on with your life just as well, doesn't mean that that something isn't open to criticism at all.

[KP Joey]

1. There is not a insignificant amount of people who dislike this feature.

2. If you think logically sustainable emotions about exploitative gross shit like this is something that one can simply just magic away, then you clearly haven't felt strongly about anything in your life.

3. Being true to one's self can never ruin something for oneself, and living in hypocrisy is one of the most deplorable things I can think of.

4. Thoughts, feelings and reasonings don't just come out of nowhere with an ability to wave a wand and make them go away. The absoloute best I can do is accept the reality of the situation, which I am trying to do, but even if/when that happens I'm not going to somehow come out in favor of it. Rather, I'll just stop getting emotionally invested in arguments concerning something I used to care about. It's like hearing something shitty happening on the news, people just don't have the capacity to live constantly despairing about things, but just because they accept the reality and try to move on means they're trying to break with an emotional connection to the subject matter.

5. This is not the only thing in the game that makes me dislike it, far from it.

Seriously, fuck you for even thinking that's an appropriate counterargument.

We're not in favor of this feature. At least, I'd assume a majority of us on this forum aren't. However, I'm not going to let that feature sit there and make me think any less of characters or the game. I still view them as characters in a video game that I will enjoy watching grow and develop and supporting and what have you. This feature specifically is something I will use once, giggle at it, and leave for good. I'm sure that's how most of us on this forum are at this point with it. However, I also realize that there are people that will enjoy this feature. They will get more enjoyment out of the game being able to use this feature. Those people exist. I'm not going to let an optional feature in this game that other people will enjoy get in the way of enjoying the game as a whole. You can take this as us (as I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way regarding this feature) moving on from the fact that it's implemented in the game. Most of us are going to play the game as it is regardless of the feature existing, and we're going to get the same amount of enjoyment as we would if it didn't exist because we simply won't use it. We'll debate the issue on a forum, or we'll find ways to complain to IS, but this feature is not going to ruin the game for me or other people that will enjoy the game regardless of this feature existing.

This is tiresome to reply to because I already went over this repeatedly a few pages ago. Some features are neccessities to the mechanical systems of the game that interlock in various ways, and most function within a reasonable bubble of suspension of disbelief.

There are some unelegant realities to the changing nature of FE as a series, but again, there is no real sustainable comparison between "choosing where a character moves is not giving them a choice in battle when you're the tactician undermines their agency" and "getting to grope and fuck all your barely-legal-technically-not-sisters undermines their agency". The former has at least has reasonable justification unless the tactician is a fucking asshole and suicides their units repeatedly, which is not productive in any strategical sense, and the vast majority of players intuitively see this as a bad thing and get frustrated at themselves (or the game) if it happens. Heck, this is why we have casual and phoenix mode. It's a non-argument, we intuitively recognise that letting units die is undesirable and should be avoided, and if we make tactical errors and someone dies, then a mechanical metaphor would be that that is in fact what happens in war sometimes. The game won't accomodate for units refusing to suicide themselves because as an option it only exists to be a state of failure. Groping minigames are a reward.

There are also countless complaints about how bad opposite sex supports are for the majority of the cast in Awakening, and especially the S supports, and it's because the mechanics of free for all marriage are not adequately lived up to by the basic support system. Many people have expressed preference to either having less possible pairings and better supports or a reworked support system that doesn't make the mechanic feel artificial as hell.

Additionally, characters don't respond to an in-universe request in the same manner as they do for this, nor do those systems inherantly lack tact or undermine character preferences. Kamui requests you come and get groped, characters obey. Comparatively, supports and battle actions can be viewed as dynamic within the world. Obviously, because a game is prewritten and preprogrammed, characters cannot truly be individuals, but proper verisimilitude lets us accept them anyway. When you have a feature like this present, it acutely highlights how inhuman and doll like, how manufactured-for-the-sake-of-indulgence they are. That fact wouldn't really change if this didn't exist, but it would be less blatantly obvious. Really, even if this is "removed" in later versions, it's still going to factor into the impression I have of the game, I'm still not buying it.

If you don't give a rat's ass about having characters to enjoy that can be viewed as existing for their own sake within the context of the world, then what the fuck ever. People who just don't care are severely holding this medium as a whole back, beacuse fiction and fictitious individuals within fiction have limitless potential to invoke geninue emotion and thought, and seeing the prevelance of superficial, lowest common denominator garbage like this is unbelievably tiresome and dissapointing. There's room for both, but the space for the former is getting squeezed to near nonexistance.

I see where you're coming from with most of this.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this honestly. lol

If I personally don't make the same connection that you're making for face touching and the game as a whole, then I simply have no reason to feel the same way that you do. I don't think that character development or my personal connection to characters is ruined, and I absolutely do not view the characters as sexualized objects due to a feature that I can simply decide not to use. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. It's not me not caring about the fact that face touching is gross and weird, it's simply me not feeling the same way that you do with this. I'm sure this is the case for multiple people you've talked to. If we felt this strongly about this specifically, then sure, we'd probably not buy the game and would be in the same boat that you are, but we're not. We're going to buy the game and play through it, and we're going to have our criticism and our praise for the game, just like Awakening and other videogames we play. We'll complain on a forum or to IS, but that's honestly it. Assuming that we simply don't care because we're choosing to accept that the feature is in the game and play it anyways is simply incorrect if that's what you're doing, but honestly I don't know what you're trying to do with this.

[NeptuniasBeard]

What does this add to the game? Some people think it's cute or funny, others have probably jacked off to hearing their favourite seiyuu say lewd things. Is this worth what it does to the meta-narrative? One simply doesn't have to not care about the feature specifically or enjoy it to condone it, they have to not give a shit about the sincerity of the game's characterisation. This kind of attitude is exactly the problem; yes, you should give a shit, because not striving or expecting better in narrative focused material is causing game writing to stagnate. Passively accepting shitty things only enforces a status quo; things can't get better.

It doesn't add anything really, but why does it have to? Some things are thrown in for the audiences enjoyment. It doesn't affect the narrative unless you want it to. That's like saying the Hubba tester confirms that every character is bisexual. A ludicrous claim, to say the least Like the Dead Rising games, you can dress up the main character in whatever silly gear you want, it does not add to the game, it's there for the player to enjoy themself. The overall story would be just a ridiculous without it. The characters don't feel shame or weakened because Frank is walking around in a tutu. Just like these characters aren't affected by someone poking thier face. It certainly goes against their character, but their actual character is not affected.

And for the millionth time. I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist, i'm acknowledging that it's existence isn't going to stop me from getting the game. I could criticize this, and the incest, and the lolicon all night long, and sometimes I do, but at the end of the day, I'm still going to buy the game. If you really hate it that much, then don't buy the game, send IS a message that this shit ain't gonna fly with you. But you're not going to do that, you're going to be right there on release day (or week, if something comes up for you) to give them your money.

Again, I'm not saying "suck it up" or that you buying the game will betray your beliefs, I'm simply saying that, if you're gonna buy the game anyway, then you are going to have to do something more productive to get your displeasure voiced to IS. Write a news article, get that shit trending, gather up voices that are similar to yours and become a force that they cannot ignore, because at this point, you are just spinning your wheels here. Everyone on this forum is more or less set in their choices, whether that's agreeing with you or disagreeing.

Edit: Joey, you ninja'd me bro! >_<

Edited August 9, 2015 by NeptuniasBeard

[capmalachi]

We're not in favor of this feature. At least, I'd assume a majority of us on this forum aren't.

I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. It's human nature to complain, people are much less likely to go out of their way to praise something they like than they are to complain about something they don't. When you factor in the fact that there are people in this thread trying to paint anyone who does like this feature as a creepy fetishizing otaku, it's not surprising that people who like it are going to keep their mouths shut.

Edited August 9, 2015 by capmalachi

[Dark Holy Elf]

My two cents about this:

First of all, I do think it's absolutely possible for an optional feature to hurt a game. The hypothetical "rape simulator" already posed is a good example. Even if it were totally optional, and even if it were approved by the ESRB/similar organisations (or such organisations didn't exist), it's hard to argue that such a "feature" would not hurt a game overall, and that "well you can just ignore it" is not an acceptable defence. Obviously FE-amie/skinship is nowhere near that crass, but the point is that there certainly exists a line beyond which optional features become detrimental to their game no matter how optional they may be.

Is FE-amie over that line? That, I think, is far more debatable. Even in this thread there are pretty reasonsed arguments why it may or may not be. And where that line is depends on exactly what you're looking for in the game, or what your standards are. For my part (and people are by no means obliged to agree with me), I think FE-amie does hurt the game in some ways. Even if the game is perfect in all other ways, I suspect the FE-amie feature would seriously hurt the game in a "best game of all time" discussion that we might have 20 years later. A game which you are willing to hold as among the most complete and artistically sound should have a coherent tone, and I think feeling up your characters interferes with that tone. Other people have already made the arguments here; I basically agree with them.

However, if we step back from such lofty standards, then I don't think FE-amie will hurt the game much to me. Hell, I'll probably toy with it myself. As far as "silly optional fun" goes it seems pretty harmless, once I resign myself to taking the game's writing less completely seriously (which I pretty much have to do with every Fire Emblem ever anyway). So I see both sides pretty well here, and I agree with either depending on exactly what my standards for the game are.


Regarding Sakurai's comments specifically, I definitely understand where he's coming from. His games have often featured separate modes which for whatever reason generate ire from certain segments of the fanbase. I personally do not like Smash Run, Smash Tour, or Subspace Emissary, but I do agree that optional side modes aren't going to do much to hurt a fighting game which ultimately is about its fun multiplayer experience. So I basically agree with him completely. The only thing that differentiates something like FE-amie is that, unlike optional Smash modes, it is possible to take a moral/tone-related objection with its very existence. (Again, not saying that one must, but that it's possible. Nobody should be offended by Smash Run etc. on the other hand.)

[NeptuniasBeard]

My two cents about this:

First of all, I do think it's absolutely possible for an optional feature to hurt a game. The hypothetical "rape simulator" already posed is a good example. Even if it were totally optional, and even if it were approved by the ESRB/similar organisations (or such organisations didn't exist), it's hard to argue that such a "feature" would not hurt a game overall, and that "well you can just ignore it" is not an acceptable defence. Obviously FE-amie/skinship is nowhere near that crass, but the point is that there certainly exists a line beyond which optional features become detrimental to their game no matter how optional they may be.

It's still a poor example. Even if no rating board existed, it's still is such a laughably exaggerated assumption that it could've come from a moral guardian. It should go without saying that there are limits to any rule. Some might say they don't mind seeing people date well below their age, like a 50 year old and a 20 year old. That does not imply that they will be fine with pedophilia. . If Sakurai saw that a game had a rape simulator, he would go "what the actual fuck?" just like anyone else. He gave them an inch, not a mile. Not to mention that the game would become an H-game by definition, instead of a srpg with dating sim elements.

By all means, don't like the feature, criticize it, no one, not even Sakurai is saying you can't. You can even disagree that such a feature doesn't hurt the overall experience. But please, for the love of gods, do not act like "the rape simulator" is a sound example. You sound like those people who say "if gay people can get married, then why can't a marry my dog?"