PvP Healthiness Polls

[Psyruby]

Alright, so I wanted to ask the community what they think would be healthy for PvP. Everyone has their own definition for what's healthy for a PvP community, so I want your answer. There will be bias shown in my explanation for why they are in the polls, but please think for yourself before answering. Comment about your choices if you want to express your opinion.

Lethality: Everyone knows about how Lethality builds feel cheap, but do you think it is healthy for PvP?

Extravagance+Line of Death: With two skills, the player can have +20 damage on their turn, thus creating a situation where you can easily OHKO many classes with a high movement class, but do you think it is healthy for PvP?

Forged Weapons: Forged Weapons give a significant boost to damage, hitrate, and critical, thus allowing for more situations where you can OHKO the opponent with certain builds. They also favor certain weapons which narrows down variety in weapon choice, but do you think they are healthy for PvP?

Character Specific Weapons: These weapons are very powerful compared to base weapons. They are even comparable to S rank weapons in some cases. However, most of them are only available to first generation characters, but do you think they are healthy for PvP?

Yato Final: So, let's say you think Character Specific Weapons are okay, but what about Yato Final? This weapon is so strong that even fully forged +7 Silver weapons aren't necessarily better. +4 Str, Spd, Def, Res is very strong advantage on an already excellent blade and makes Kamui undoubtedly the best unit the game, but do you think it is healthy for PvP?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Psyruby

[SapphireFalconWing]

I think all are fine you just have to play more strategic against players that meet this criteria.

[mimasho]

I think as long as it is obtainable in game, in should be allowed.

Any sort of skills definitely should be allowed, unless it's literally unobtainable for the specific character.

The current problem with the PvP system is how it allows hackers to bypass it.

[SapphireFalconWing]

I think as long as it is obtainable in game, in should be allowed.

Any sort of skills definitely should be allowed, unless it's literally unobtainable for the specific character.

The current problem with the PvP system is how it allows hackers to bypass it.

yeah agreed

[Zachmac]

Alright, I don't have the game. I can't experiment around with skills like Line of Death and Extravagance to really form a strong opinion on them.

...However, I am very opposed to forging for one reason; the requirements. To get a +7 Brave Weapon, it'll take 64 Brave Weapons and over 200 gems, iirc. That's just ridiculous. It gives an seriously unfair advantage to those who are willing to cheat or those who are willing to grind away for several hours just to get that perfect blade. It's part of the reason so many competitive Pokemon players - such as myself - resort almost entirely to simulators to play. I just want to play a fair game, not sit on my 3DS grinding for hours on end so I can become equal to the opposition.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Zachmac

[Azz]

I feel Lethality should be banned cause of how easy it is to abuse.Weather it be using it with Hoshido, Flamboyant and another proc for stacking or weather it be those skills and Nohr so you can have say other skills.It is just way to broken regardless of build.

With Extravagance and LoD there can be ways around it however I think it should be reduced to only certain builds.

As long as forges are not to crazy I am fne.I think a +3 max is fine as it is not too expensive and not too powerful to point that you will always lose.

Prf weapons are fine.

Yato Final is final.

[mimasho]

Alright, I don't have the game. I can't experiment around with skills like Line of Death and Extravagance to really form a strong opinion on them.

...However, I am very opposed to forging for one reason; the requirements. To get a +7 Brave Weapon, it'll take 64 Brave Weapons and over 200 gems, iirc. That's just ridiculous. It gives an seriously unfair advantage to those who are willing to cheat or those who are willing to grind away for several hours just to get that perfect blade. It's part of the reason so many competitive Pokemon players - such as myself - resort almost entirely to simulators to play. I just want to play a fair game, not sit on my 3DS grinding for hours on end so I can become equal to the opposition.

akdfhns REALLY ?!

I have an assortment of brave weapons, but I've never forged them simply because I like letting my units have their own instead of giving them to one person.

But 64 WEAPONS ?!?? Then again, it goes back to my point that the PvP system is too easily bypassed by hackers.

Hopefully, they'll either figure out a way to completely ban hackers from using their online options (because they're already kind of starting to), or I guess it'd just be more fair to disallow forged weapons in this case. Because I can see players duping weapons and things for PvP purposes in the future (not that it isn't happening already, because it definitely is) but I'm not sure how easy it would be for their system to detect whether they're doing so ~

[gayserbeam]

akdfhns REALLY ?!

I have an assortment of brave weapons, but I've never forged them simply because I like letting my units have their own instead of giving them to one person.

But 64 WEAPONS ?!?? Then again, it goes back to my point that the PvP system is too easily bypassed by hackers.

Hopefully, they'll either figure out a way to completely ban hackers from using their online options (because they're already kind of starting to), or I guess it'd just be more fair to disallow forged weapons in this case. Because I can see players duping weapons and things for PvP purposes in the future (not that it isn't happening already, because it definitely is) but I'm not sure how easy it would be for their system to detect whether they're doing so ~

It's worse. 64 is for +6. For +7 you need 128.

[Self-Keeping Secret]

I feel like Lethality works a lot like the OHKO clause on Smogon. It can eliminate big threats to the team with little strategy or setup needed, and the activation rate can get way bigger than 30, which is the hit rate for Pokemon moves like Fissure and Horn Drill. I personally am opposed to Lethality, or at the very least Lethality plus a skill that ups activation.

For Extravagance + LoD, I'm fine with it because there is no net damage reduction, and you need Gold Coins in you inventory for it to work, and when you run out, LoD's negative effects kick in. Given that you only have 5 solts to work with, that leaves serious opportunity cost for other weapons and items.

For prf weapons, including Yato Final, Only one character can use it, and you may not even want the character in the class that uses that weapon type.

I dont know much about forging, but I'm pretty sure S-Rank weapons can be forged, and that's ridiculus.

[SageOfAnys]

My opinions are below, but really, nothing should be banned/ restricted unless it's been a very common problem for a while and causes some monotony in teams.

Lethality is all right, as long as the activation rates are jacked up to crazy levels to become near guarantees. Because if it Lethality is allowed, it will be exploited, then a lot teams might end up having at least one Lethality unit and every other unit is pretty much required to have Miracle to actually survive, which isn't really healthy. Nothing should be allowed that might cause teams to have a certain skill as a requirement to actually do well in most cases.

Extravagance + Line of Death can be easily exploited, but I don't know if it should be banned. Maybe only one unit with this build is allowed per team or you can only have _ golden coins to use in a battle or something like that.

Forges are okay, but they should have a limit that most players should be able to access. It shouldn't be a "have DLC to win" type of thing like Awakening with its Limit Breaker. Also personal weapons and the Final Yatogami should be allowed of forges are... unless problems come up to the future where literally every team is using people like Xander, Leo, Ryoma, or Takumi and no one else just because they have OP weapons.

[Psyruby]

I feel like Lethality works a lot like the OHKO clause on Smogon. It can eliminate big threats to the team with little strategy or setup needed, and the activation rate can get way bigger than 30, which is the hit rate for Pokemon moves like Fissure and Horn Drill. I personally am opposed to Lethality, or at the very least Lethality plus a skill that ups activation.

For Extravagance + LoD, I'm fine with it because there is no net damage reduction, and you need Gold Coins in you inventory for it to work, and when you run out, LoD's negative effects kick in. Given that you only have 5 solts to work with, that leaves serious opportunity cost for other weapons and items.

For prf weapons, including Yato Final, Only one character can use it, and you may not even want the character in the class that uses that weapon type.

I dont know much about forging, but I'm pretty sure S-Rank weapons can be forged, and that's ridiculus.

S ranks can't be forged cause they cannot be found in multiples, even with Weapon DLC. They are one each game.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Psyruby

[Zachmac]

Oh, hey, here's something the OP forgot to mention. What do you guys who have the game think of Copycat?

On paper, it's pretty crazy. Every unit who gets it can essentially preform two actions ever turn, which is why Galeforce was so crazy in Awakening. It sounds like a real offensive force to be reckoned with, especially when you're only allowed 5 characters.

It's worse. 64 is for +6. For +7 you need 128.

Oh great, then I remembered incorrectly. Yaaaaay.

...The tedious procedures of IV breeding are sounding better and better by the minute.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Zachmac

[Psyruby]

Oh, hey, here's something the OP forgot to mention. What do you guys who have the game think of Copycat?

DOH, I knew I forgot something. I do think Copycat is really good. Especially on characters who have 1-2 range attacks or just hang back with a shadow clone to heal yourself or others.. Yeah, personally, I don't think copycat is healthy. It would just cause everyone to use Copycat, and that's unoriginal. Which is sad, cause I like the idea behind Copycat.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Psyruby

[charlesbarkley]

S-rank weapons can be forged as far as the game system goes, it's just that you can currently only get one of each. It's possible they might release a DLC down the track with S-ranks as the reward. Also rescue staves are much worse for centralizing PvP meta than all of these things.

[Dalyzor]

I know it's DLC, but why is Galeforce not on this list? As the legendary "OP" skill of awakening makes its return to fates, I'm surprised people arent commenting on its usage in PvP

unleeeess im missing something, like if dlc skills/classes arent allowed in pvp

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I want to remind ourselves that this is a strategy game and to be completely based on luck and one shotting units isn't what that is. I know if the meta was made, their'ed be restrictions, but the PvP is free world and you can't stop a lot of broken stuff.

I know it's DLC, but why is Galeforce not on this list? As the legendary "OP" skill of awakening makes its return to fates, I'm surprised people arent commenting on its usage in PvP

unleeeess im missing something, like if dlc skills/classes arent allowed in pvp

I would have just said, "Is pay to win, healthy?"

[Psyruby]

I know it's DLC, but why is Galeforce not on this list? As the legendary "OP" skill of awakening makes its return to fates, I'm surprised people arent commenting on its usage in PvP

unleeeess im missing something, like if dlc skills/classes arent allowed in pvp

Like Lethality, Galeforce did get nerfed. However, I would say Galeforce got nerfed a lot more. Galeforce doesn't activate in attack or guard stance anymore, which means you have to be by yourself for it to activate AND kill the enemy. Copycat is a way worse offender of 2 actions in one turn at the moment.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Psyruby

[GoXDS]

overall, depends what you want to achieve with PvP, which will no doubt differ between person to person. pure test of skill? or allow interesting but complicated to get (requiring buying a lot usually) sets? simply having fun PvPing?

one extreme is to only allow single file skills, no buying allowed (or even more extreme, purely initial sets only). for pure Fire Emblem skills since in most games (and non-grind happy Awakening as well), Skills aren't so arbitrarily obtained. so one can argue, just stick to basics. though not everyone would be happy with this.

one problem with trying to decide lots of bans is, where does one stop? sometimes decisions can seem arbitrary (some Smogon decisions in Pokemon seem that way nowaday). it's hard to know where unbalanced is and properly usable. and who gets to decide?

though it seems for FE PvP there aren't going to be any large scale tourneys or anything so for the most part it can easily be decided between participants. I don't know much about the mechanics so I can't really say much more

[Airship Canon]

I want to remind ourselves that this is a strategy game and to be completely based on luck and one shotting units isn't what that is.

Oh hey a chance to mention my sig.

(Full line "Midway! Displaying their Might, Ordering Carriers, Admirals at War! We'll meet at Midway! To win the fight, Tactics are Crucial! Naval War!")

...Plenty of actual battles are completely decided in luck, like... Midway.

Can't say luck has no place in strategy, considering real world armies depended on it.

You can't say with any form that the Japanese had a better strategy at Midway, considering they lost-- hard. (4 for 1 CV trade, 3000+ sailors to 300)

Do you know what decided Midway?

It wasn't the code cracking that let the USN know the Japanese were coming, and make the pull (Midway Atoll has a Water shortage!). That only decided the theatre of the decisive battle, not the outcome. The IJN was coming for the US's CVs. The response was to throw those CVs into the jaws of the enemy.

...The deciding blow was... Dauntless from 20,000 feet, suddenly terminating three of Japan's Fleet Carriers.

This was nothing short of a bloody miracle.

Those Dauntless were out of communication and had no idea where the enemy CVs were. However, 1 DD out of position, it's heading showed were the fleet was.

At the same moment, the A6Ms were being rearmed and refueled after brutally fending off a TB attack.

The IJN Fleet Carriers were completely defenseless against the lucky American bombers. And three of them would be sent to the bottom.

And a fourth to follow.

The equivalent of a 1% Hit, 10% Lethality Procing. Twice.

And this was the turning point in the Pacific war.

The only metric of a strategy is does it work.

"In war, luck is half of everything" <- Napoleon.

Regardless of terms, a strategy does its best to actually mitigate chance of failure, while maximizing chance of success. Real world militaries use weapons and order attacks that have <1% chances of success. The catch is that their strategies account for that failure chance. Got a 1 in 1000 chance of getting bombs onto that factory? Drop 1000 bombs then. Statistically, you will hit it.

As far as it applies to this topic, the strategy that involves being unfair and just 1-hit killing is the Lethality rush.

Given you can throw 8 ~60% Lethality units at your foes that's not even a low% strategy. It's not so much "lucky" at that point. That's just overpowered.

There's not much that can be done to stop powerful strategies like Lethality Rush unless you've got an equally powerful counterplay-- it's more like the Cartridge Meta in Pokemon. For the point, things like OU don't exist on Cart. There's Cart Meta, then Simulator Meta for Pokemon-- they're VERY different. Cart is real, however.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Airship Canon

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Hmph. I've heard of the story. It was pretty astonishing really. (Tho I know very little) But Midway certainly wasn't determined by the luck, though it helped a bit. Though the battle was more in their favor before the fight even started. A Chinese man said the same in a book about The Art of War around 2,500 years ago (The chances of watching Ep 17 of JoJo's Adventure and have me put the same words down). Because they cracked the naval code, they were able to influence the way of battle and the victory was decided before they even fought. That's strategy. Especially influenced from the horrible strategies Japan were using, having their forces split in the middle, spread out and their units unable to support each other and apparently horrible damage control.

tl;dr 'Victories are decided before the battles are fought.' Said by a Chinese man. The meaning was, laying down strategies while your opponent was unaware. Obtaining the Naval codes of Japan and bending the game to the US and I doubt Japan were ready for that.

As for Fire Emblem though, do you ever look at your stats before launching an attack, having a 30% Hit Chance? People would say 'no', then use another method for a more benefiting situation. Even the same naval's in Midway would rather not be in the same place again as they were. Because throwing something at the most smallest chance again and again and again, you'll only succeed very few in reality. Maybe I'm being too glass full. You'll fail from taking luck seriously as it's own stat. Won't learn or gain anything for not taking the benefit of the doubt of making a low chance Lethality, because that takes away the smart play of strategy. More, the game now becomes about having needed stats, pairing, skills, and such now instead of having the mind.

The RNG in video games compared to life is fixed or at least very much in FE, but you can influence and break Fire Emblem's RNG. You can influence and bend the game and no luck is involved. They say Fighting games are like Chess, and Chess is like a Strategy game, and Fighting games are less about luck and more about quick thinking and options. That's what strategy is. Though proc'ing is accounted for, it's the last thing you should be taking into in a strategy. It's supposed to be a bonus, not a last or main line of defense or offence.

P.s. I left this for a couple hours, came back to finish this reply off and completely forgotten what the hell I was supposed to be on about. 0_o

[Acker]

- Lethality is fine until the activation rate is buffed from ~10 to >30 because of Hoshido+Flamboyant combo.

- Extravagance+Line of Death is limited by the amount of golden coin you carry and is easily exploited on your turn because the +10 damage received.

- Forged weapons are fine with a limit. I'm sure some people would be able to make +7 weapons with or without cheating.

- The Prf weapons are locked for one character and this is what make that character special/unique. Because of this i'm in favour of not banning these, same with the Yato.

But in any case, i feel like is too early for theoryzing about this thing, maybe we should wait since the metagame starts to develop a bit and see if the people are really interested of playing the Fates PvP competitively and from that start thinking what need a ban and what not.

[qwertyfatcat]

Copycat is a pretty bad problem for pvp. Despite costing one skill that doesn't influence the individual in terms of stats, combat or mobility, it greatly increases the power of your army.

It basically doubles a unit's stats, skills and weapons, acts as stance fodder, can grant even more buffs and debuffs in battle, make a single unit twice the hassle for basically free.

What's worse is that more than one unit can have this skill, potentially allowing a player twice the amount of units than his/her opponent unless the other side does so as well. It practically puts up a bar that players have to pass if they want a decent chance at pvp.

I mean lethality doesn't sound as bad when compared to doubling your army's size.

[gayserbeam]

Copycat is a pretty bad problem for pvp. Despite costing one skill that doesn't influence the individual in terms of stats, combat or mobility, it greatly increases the power of your army.

It basically doubles a unit's stats, skills and weapons, acts as stance fodder, can grant even more buffs and debuffs in battle, make a single unit twice the hassle for basically free.

What's worse is that more than one unit can have this skill, potentially allowing a player twice the amount of units than his/her opponent unless the other side does so as well. It practically puts up a bar that players have to pass if they want a decent chance at pvp.

I mean lethality doesn't sound as bad when compared to doubling your army's size.

It isn't truly doubled, because if the puppeteer dies, so does the puppet and vice-versa. You don't have to kill more units than you did before. But you do get a bunch of extra units you can use for healing and attacking and Pair-Up, which is definitely still a massive advantage.

Copycat, though, is one of the most interesting and strategically versatile skills in the game. Removing it completely feels like a significant blow to the depth of Fates. I'd much rather see it limited to one unit per team, than a complete ban.

The advantage copycat brings is not as overwhelming when only one opponent unit has it, especially when killing that one unit knocks out both them and their puppet.

Edited August 10, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Psyruby]

Alright, I told myself I'd wait a day for explaining my stances as the creator of this poll.

1) Lethality: I think this is perfectly fine for PvP as long as certain percentages aren't reached. Also, the nerf so that weak opponent's can't just lethality you is a nice change. I'd put it under certain builds shouldn't be allowed(provided that we can find broken builds.)

2) Extravagance+LoD: I actually legit think this shouldn't be allowed. It's not cause it is broken in concept but rather broken in practice. You see, PvP is 5v5. Which means alpha strike/aggro is extremely strong as an option. When you can go first, move faster, and eliminate some of your opponent's option when they literally have no say in the matter, that's when it becomes a problem. Cause you literally turned a 5v5 into a 5v3or2or1. Even if your opponent's revenged killed your units next turn, you could have your remaining units alpha strike theirs. Basically, having anything close to multiple units able to OHKO makes the person who can attack first be in such an advantageous state when you only have 5 units to begin with.

3) Forged weapons should be allowed only up to a certain level. A) They undermine the advantages of S rank weapons. B) they undermine the advantages of character specific weapons. C) +11 Might is stupid on silver weapons. It basically requires you to either use a Ninja/Samurai or require every other class to have specific setups not to be oneshot. Even the -2 Skill/Str is a minor quip when you can still OHKO someone after using it twice. D) However, I think +3 is fine. It's gives you 6 more might which isn't too much, but a nice boost for iron/steel/silver swords.

4) Character specific weapons are hard to complain about. Most are first generation units only which means they have a semi large stat decrease compared to their children. This gives an incentive to consider the first generation which is much appreciated.

5) I DON'T LIKE YATO FINAL. It requires you to use Kamui in PvP. This is basically taking an option away from the player. This is the complete opposite of what other character specific weapons do. They make some of the first generation viable.... but Kamui was already very viable. This blade just pushes him over the top in PvP and forces the player to pick an option, and you only had 5 choices to begin with.

[Soen]

The highest skill without bonuses you can reach in this game is 45(by Kanna as a Holy Bowman/Brave Hero), and that makes Lethality's proc rate about 11%, which raises to 36 with both Flamboyant and Hoshido. But at the same time, the unit who has those skills has only two skills remaining, and having Flamboyant makes you a walking target in Enemy Phase. I think it's not such a bad thing to have it. When you have 5 units with the build as your enemy, though, it's not so pleasant.

Extravagance+LoD is really scary, but since the full effects of the build come if you have a Brave equipped, you just have to be faster and snipe the unit before they can do damage. This is easily done by a Golden Kite Warrior. IMHO this build isn't as toxic as everyone's saying it is.

Preferred weapons are awsome and I don't see why they should be removed. If well used, they can turn the royals into poweful units, even better then their children. Yato Final is a little OP, and maybe it should be the only one to ban. But the game isn't out yet, we shoud test how it handles.

About Copycat Puppet, again, you just have to use your turn well. HP being shared by two units is a much bigger thing than it looks. Plus, Puppet Break exists. Giving it to one unit can turn can get rid of any Puppet in sight.

Galeforce was broken. Pair up in Awakening was broken. Lethality with 60+ Skill was broken. Nothing in Fates is, and with the right build and a little bit of luck everything can be countered.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Soen