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PvP Polls  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think Lethality is healthy for PvP?

    • Yes
      28
    • No
      19
    • Certain builds shouldn't be allowed.
      15
  2. 2. Do you think Extravagance+Line of Death is healthy for PvP?

    • Yes
      41
    • No
      11
    • Certain builds shouldn't be allowed.
      10
  3. 3. Do you think forged weapons are healthy for PvP?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      14
    • Only up to a certain level(ie +3)?
      24
  4. 4. Do you think character specific weapons(ie Raijin Katana) are healthy for PvP?

    • Yes
      45
    • No
      5
    • Only if forged weapons are allowed.
      12
  5. 5. Do you think Yato Final is healthy for PvP?

    • Yes
      40
    • No
      9
    • Only if forged weapons are allowed.
      13


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The highest skill without bonuses you can reach in this game is 45(by Kanna as a Holy Bowman/Brave Hero), and that makes Lethality's proc rate about 11%, which raises to 36 with both Flamboyant and Hoshido. But at the same time, the unit who has those skills has only two skills remaining, and having Flamboyant makes you a walking target in Enemy Phase. I think it's not such a bad thing to have it. When you have 5 units with the build as your enemy, though, it's not so pleasant.

Extravagance+LoD is really scary, but since the full effects of the build come if you have a Brave equipped, you just have to be faster and snipe the unit before they can do damage. This is easily done by a Golden Kite Warrior. IMHO this build isn't as toxic as everyone's saying it is.

Preferred weapons are awsome and I don't see why they should be removed. If well used, they can turn the royals into poweful units, even better then their children. Yato Final is a little OP, and maybe it should be the only one to ban. But the game isn't out yet, we shoud test how it handles.

About Copycat Puppet, again, you just have to use your turn well. HP being shared by two units is a much bigger thing than it looks. Plus, Puppet Break exists. Giving it to one unit can turn can get rid of any Puppet in sight.

Galeforce was broken. Pair up in Awakening was broken. Lethality with 60+ Skill was broken. Nothing in Fates is, and with the right build and a little bit of luck everything can be countered.

as mentioned by Psyruby, first strike advantage. even if Lethality user is now a big target, you're still ahead in player count if you got first strike. can't we put, into those last 2 slots, Copycat and Galeforce? *shudder* plus, on top of the opponent having less units, they'll have to use a unit to take out the Lethality user, leaving even less units to use on their turn for the rest of the opposing team. while taking out the Lethality user, they still run the risk of triggering Lethality. and what happens if there's...3 ultra Lethality users?

Extravagance+LoD is still heavily favoring the player with it. +10 may hurt but by itself isn't usually a OHKO for a Berserker. and as long as it's not an instant KO< Counter on top of EV+LoD is an option

if the Copycat user uses their turn well as well (able to get first strike), then they will just have huge advantage. they will have unit count advantage. and you know something is unhealthy and overcentralizing if a niche skill is almost required (Puppet Break)

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as mentioned by Psyruby, first strike advantage. even if Lethality user is now a big target, you're still ahead in player count if you got first strike. can't we put, into those last 2 slots, Copycat and Galeforce? *shudder* plus, on top of the opponent having less units, they'll have to use a unit to take out the Lethality user, leaving even less units to use on their turn for the rest of the opposing team. while taking out the Lethality user, they still run the risk of triggering Lethality. and what happens if there's...3 ultra Lethality users?

Extravagance+LoD is still heavily favoring the player with it. +10 may hurt but by itself isn't usually a OHKO for a Berserker. and as long as it's not an instant KO< Counter on top of EV+LoD is an option

if the Copycat user uses their turn well as well (able to get first strike), then they will just have huge advantage. they will have unit count advantage. and you know something is unhealthy and overcentralizing if a niche skill is almost required (Puppet Break)

Berserker doesn't even need LoD, however the Berserker is supposed to OHKO/2HKO. This is fine as the Berserker has low movement(provided you didn't give him boots), which means he more revenge kills(well... he gets revenge on those who hurt him) and less alpha strikes. Really, EV+LoD is only an issue on horses/pegasus/dragons, and while it's super awesome to say the Golden Kites are good against it, you are centralizing the game if only one unit has a true advantage(and you really could just work around this weakness. Golden Kites are very weak compared to other units, both offensively and defensively.)

Edited by Psyruby

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As far as final yato goes, it should be fine to let it be used, as almost everyone is going to use the avatar, as he/she can have almost every skill in the game. The main reason I'm fine with it is because this is not awakening where every gets A ranked weapons no matter what and have 80 HP no matter what, all classes have there ups and downs now. So with the avatar, your not going to be overpowered as all hell, you will be good against some and bad against others depending on your class.

Moving on to forge weapons, I get the idea that +7 seems a bit to much, as you can get some crazy powerful weapons, but I'd still like to use that possibility, as I said before, things depended more on the classes you use and the type of character as well. But I still can see why people don't really like +7 weapons.

Leathaity by its self is fine. Anything like flamboyant with it, I'd not like to much.

Personal weapons are 100% fine.

Edited by Deatheggx56

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Lethality builds are redundant with the two units with high enough Skill to be viable with it (Holy Bowman and Brave Hero) are already combat-oriented units that can easily ORKO an enemy without having to fork over 3 of their Skills. It's an option, but not a good one.

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Lethality builds are redundant with the two units with high enough Skill to be viable with it (Holy Bowman and Brave Hero) are already combat-oriented units that can easily ORKO an enemy without having to fork over 3 of their Skills. It's an option, but not a good one.

Brave Hero vs Brave Hero

32 Str, 30 Def, 35 Skill, 60 HP

Brave Sword 6 Mt so Brave Sword Brave Hero would do (32+6+3(A Rank)-30) = 22. even with 2 Breaking Sky, that's +32 (~27% chance of 2 procs), for a total of only 54 dmg. if the Brave Hero had Swordfaire, that's 32 base, 48 at 1 Breaking Sky, and only 27% chance for ORKO at the cost of 2 slots

thus it's pretty difficult for the most part to ORKO anything (27% is not "easy")

comparatively, Lethality with just Flamboyant is already ~23%, so with Brave Sword, that's ~40% chance of ORKO. add on Hoshido and now it's ~55%, double that of Breaking Sky. and wait! we can do both at once! Hoshido/Breaking Sky/Lethality/Flamboyant/Swordfaire (or even Nohr instead). this has a 67% chance of ORKO. even better, do it with a class that can double + brave like Elite Ninja or Trueblade. just needs to have +5 Speed after modifiers(which isn't that much bar speedy classes) more than the opponent and that's 4 chances of triggering Lethality, ~65% without Hoshido, ~80% with Hoshido

also, because it's Skill/4 (which I assume rounds down), 32-35 Skill all have the same chance so we don't need maximized Skill. plus, the majority of the % is from the skills, not Skill itself (4 extra Skill is only going to increase the chance of ORKO by ~1.5%, which is almost negligible). so a General can pull it off just as well as a Holy Bowman or Brave Hero

Edited by GoXDS

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S-rank weapons can be forged as far as the game system goes, it's just that you can currently only get one of each. It's possible they might release a DLC down the track with S-ranks as the reward. Also rescue staves are much worse for centralizing PvP meta than all of these things.

Absolutely agree with the rescue stave point. God bless you if your units dont have enough movement, because a rescue team can just send in a high mobility unit with 5 offensive skills designed to 0RKO before teleporting it to safety with zero repercussions.

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Absolutely agree with the rescue stave point. God bless you if your units dont have enough movement, because a rescue team can just send in a high mobility unit with 5 offensive skills designed to 0RKO before teleporting it to safety with zero repercussions.

I'm going to be honest... if you don't have ONE high mobility unit, then that's more your fault. Also, this seems way more problematic if it is possible to OHKO, which is the majority of what should be prevented in PvP. Allowing OHKO with units never meant to in the first place(unless some serious class advantage, weapon advantage, and skill activation are going on) makes the "first" player have much more advantage than the second. Which is why I call into question things like Lethality, EV+LoD, and even forging tbh. Cause those are the three biggest ways for OHKO to happen. Otherwise these Rescue staff shenanigans can be punished cause you will have a retaliation attack and all of your units after the first round(unless you ****ed up and placed a bad unit for combat out front).

EDIT: Also in a 5v5, if you do this strategy, you have already committed 3 units. That's a heavy investment, provided OHKO isn't possible.

Edited by Psyruby

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I'm going to be honest... if you don't have ONE high mobility unit, then that's more your fault. Also, this seems way more problematic if it is possible to OHKO, which is the majority of what should be prevented in PvP. Allowing OHKO with units never meant to in the first place(unless some serious class advantage, weapon advantage, and skill actiavtions are going on) makes the "first" player have much more advantage than the second. Which is why I call into question things like Lethality, EV+LoD, and even forging tbh. Cause those are the three biggest ways for OHKO to happen. Otherwise these Rescue staff shenanigans can be punished cause you will have a retaliation attack and all of your units after the first round(unless you ****ed up and placed a bad unit for combat out front).

EDIT: Also in a 5v5, if you do this strategy, you have already committed 3 units. That's a heavy investment, provided OHKO isn't possible.

I disagree with this sentiment. I think you are underestimating what I mean when I say high mobility. A rescue stave can teleport a unit from 10 squares away, completely ignoring terrain. No unit can cover that distance without boots/pair up bonuses/rally movement, and even then, very few units ignore terrain .

Also it is trivial to safely ORKO units without fear of meaningful counterattack, even without skills like lethality, EV + LoD, or forging. Flamboyant + offensive skill loaded bow takumi (who is essentially a 'flier') is a tactic I've seen employed often in pvp and it can consistently one shot your standard units capable of counterattacking or ORKO your tankiest units. Offensive skill loaded fliers + a brave weapon can easily do the job as well. It's simply a matter of dedicating all your skills to player phase oriented skills since this strategy invalidates your opponent's ability to attack back and revenge kill.

I have no prolbem with lethality, EV+ LoD, or forging because even if an enemy unit one shots your unit they are still in range to be attacked and revenge killed. Meaning, you still have a dimension of meaningful interaction with them.

Rescue staves and stacking mobility/terrain ignoring is unhealthy though, because when executed properly you utterly deprive your opponent of any meaningful interaction.

To reiterate, a team having complete denial of their player phase simply because they don't happen to have a flier/takumi jacked up with multiple boots or (surprise), rescue staves of their own feels unhealthy because it strips the other player of meaningful interaction in gameplay.

Edited by Centicerise

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To reiterate, a team having complete denial of their player phase simply because they don't happen to have a flier/takumi jacked up with multiple boots or (surprise), rescue staves of their own feels unhealthy because it strips the other player of meaningful interaction in gameplay.

Enter the great mobility creep game.

Or one of the myriad reasons why PvP can be quite problematic from a design view.

But then again, the definition of PvP: Putting your opponent at so many disadvantages that they cannot possibly fight back.

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Also it is trivial to safely ORKO units without fear of meaningful counterattack, even without skills like lethality, EV + LoD, or forging. Flamboyant + offensive skill loaded bow takumi (who is essentially a 'flier') is a tactic I've seen employed often in pvp and it can consistently one shot your standard units capable of counterattacking or ORKO your tankiest units. Offensive skill loaded fliers + a brave weapon can easily do the job as well. It's simply a matter of dedicating all your skills to player phase oriented skills since this strategy invalidates your opponent's ability to attack back and revenge kill.

Zanshin Holy Bowman Takumi vs generic Berserker (70 HP, 40 Str, 27 Def)

22 Mt + 32 Str + 3 Mt (S Rank) - 27 Def + 5 Str (Bowfaire) = 35 Dmg

Breaking Sky: 55 dmg

(38 Skl / 2) - 2 + 10 Crit (Zanshin) + 10 Crit (Class) - 25 Luc + 5 (Berserker Cev penalty) = 17% Crit <- ehh

vs generic Holy Lancer (60 HP, 34 Str, 30 Def)

22 Mt + 32 Str + 3 Mt (S Rank) + 2? (Triangle bonus) - 30 Def + 5 Str (Bowfaire) = 34 dmg

Breaking Sky: 51 dmg

(38 Skl / 2) - 2 + 10 Crit (Zanshin) + 10 Crit (Class) - 29 Luc - 10 (Lancer Cev bonus) = -2% (0%) Crit

ORKO trivial? o_o

Edited by GoXDS

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I disagree with this sentiment. I think you are underestimating what I mean when I say high mobility. A rescue stave can teleport a unit from 10 squares away, completely ignoring terrain. No unit can cover that distance without boots/pair up bonuses/rally movement, and even then, very few units ignore terrain .

Also it is trivial to safely ORKO units without fear of meaningful counterattack, even without skills like lethality, EV + LoD, or forging. Flamboyant + offensive skill loaded bow takumi (who is essentially a 'flier') is a tactic I've seen employed often in pvp and it can consistently one shot your standard units capable of counterattacking or ORKO your tankiest units. Offensive skill loaded fliers + a brave weapon can easily do the job as well. It's simply a matter of dedicating all your skills to player phase oriented skills since this strategy invalidates your opponent's ability to attack back and revenge kill.

I have no prolbem with lethality, EV+ LoD, or forging because even if an enemy unit one shots your unit they are still in range to be attacked and revenge killed. Meaning, you still have a dimension of meaningful interaction with them.

Rescue staves and stacking mobility/terrain ignoring is unhealthy though, because when executed properly you utterly deprive your opponent of any meaningful interaction.

To reiterate, a team having complete denial of their player phase simply because they don't happen to have a flier/takumi jacked up with multiple boots or (surprise), rescue staves of their own feels unhealthy because it strips the other player of meaningful interaction in gameplay.

I keep on running the numbers, and it seems to me that the tanks can deal with the damage output of Takumi/fliers and respond.

Takumi Brave Bow vs. Handaxe General(defensive formation)
(32(Str)+8(Mt)+3(WB)+7(I'll assume aggressor)+20(auto assume Luna goes off)-40)*2= 60 Damage.

Takumi Brave Bow vs. Horse God Shura.
((32+8-1(WB denied and WT disadv.)+7+19(Luna)-39(Horse God buffed Defense))*2= 52 Damage.

Takumi Brave Bow vs. Handaxe Great Knight(defensive formation)
(32+8+3+7+18(Luna)-37)*2 = 62 Damage.

And this is with the assumption Luna(or skill of equivalent power) always goes off. You'd need 3 skills to get that type of guarantee and there aren't even that many with high activation rate with the same power as Luna. Breaking Sky and Vengeance are unreliable, Aether and Astra have much lower activation rate, so that just leaves Ignis.

Also, the Fliers have an even bigger issue of Counter being a real threat on the tanks(except Shura) I just showed living through Takumi. They have lower strength(well 3 of them are equal or less), can't do anything about defensive formation, are in range of normal attacks, and we haven't even gotten into terrain defensive bonuses, Pavise, or other good defensive skills. They would just murder themselves with this strategy.

The only thing allowing them to beat the tanks is if they pull off lethality or LoD/Extravagance.

So we have to use the Rescue strategy, fliers, or proper tanks on our team of 5. That's 3 different methods(each with multiple class answers). What can you do about LoD+EV on high mobility characters? Well... you will either be alpha striked and the other guy wins, or you will lose a unit each turn, then kill one of their units, then they kill that unit, and so on and so forth until he kills your last unit.

EDIT: You could put LoD or EV on your units, but isn't that proving my point about those skills having just as bad affect on PvP when combined with certain builds?

EDIT: EDIT: I do see your point about Rescue, but to say it is more over-centralizing seems to be giving more credit than it really should have. I'd probably limit it to one Rescue staff user per team if it started to completely over-centralize the metagame.

Edited by Psyruby

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@Psyruby Luna and Breaking Sky does roughly the same (slightly in Breaking Sky's favor since on average Str > Def and people tend to go for Str on top ) but Breaking Sky is 1.5x more likely to trigger so how is it unreliable? unless you're saying Luna is even more unreliable

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@Psyruby Luna and Breaking Sky does roughly the same (slightly in Breaking Sky's favor since on average Str > Def and people tend to go for Str on top ) but Breaking Sky is 1.5x more likely to trigger so how is it unreliable? unless you're saying Luna is even more unreliable

Cause you don't control Breaking Sky's damage increase. If Breaking Sky activates against something with 0 Str(aka a Mage), you better be damn sure the rest of your attack can kill the opponent.

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Cause you don't control Breaking Sky's damage increase. If Breaking Sky activates against something with 0 Str(aka a Mage), you better be damn sure the rest of your attack can kill the opponent.

but Luna could potentially be in a similar situation, low Def Mage. but I guess people would be more inclined to max those out rather than an offensive stat that probably don't use. but even then, in trying to max Def out, they reasonably have some Str by then, no?

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but Luna could potentially be in a similar situation, low Def Mage. but I guess people would be more inclined to max those out rather than an offensive stat that probably don't use. but even then, in trying to max Def out, they reasonably have some Str by then, no?

Some units have 5-15% Str growth and magic classes have no growth in Str usually. So they might have 2-10 Str... but do you really want something that might not work out? Also, they would try to minimize their Strength growth for just this type of situation. the difference is that the defense benefits you more than Luna harms you.... but strength... strength only hurts you as a mage.

Edited by Psyruby

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Enter the great mobility creep game.

Or one of the myriad reasons why PvP can be quite problematic from a design view.

But then again, the definition of PvP: Putting your opponent at so many disadvantages that they cannot possibly fight back.

Yeah I don't think FE's suitable for PvP really, at least in the traditional sense. The two biggest flaws with how FE battles work in a PvP environment is the mobility creep. So if teams have warp staves and rescue staves. Shadow Dragon/New Mystery did a lot to try to counter that with permanent FoW but even it had a lot of issues that led to it being abandoned quickly because of so many elements that centralized the metagame.

Now compare it to Fates which not only lacks the FoW counter (I think) but also has a lot of cap mods and cheesy skill combos. I don't think there's going to be a healthy, long lasting metagame here. The best you can do to combine FE with PvP is Link Arena but even that has its problems.

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Some units have 5-15% Str growth and magic classes have no growth in Str usually. So they might have 2-10 Str... but do you really want something that might not work out? Also, they would try to minimize their Strength growth for just this type of situation. the difference is that the defense benefits you more than Luna harms you.... but strength... strength only hurts you as a mage.

Exorcist has 0 Def growth and Sorc has 5 Def growth, too. most of the magic units have comparable Str to Def growth (like, only Orochi has a difference of 15%). though they'd probably reclass to something that gives Def growths (if they even have access)

mages probably won't live anyways. Exorcist with 45 HP (Lol....) and 25 Def (....) though average speed of 32 while Sorc is 50 HP, 29 Def, and below average 29 Speed

(32 Str + 8 Mt + -1 WT - 29 Def + 7 (Aggressor) ) *2 = 34 for Sorc. if BS activates twice, then the Sorc only needs *16 Str

(32 Str + 8 Mt + -1 WT - 25 Def + 7 (Aggressor) ) *2 = 42 for Exorcist. just need 1 BS against 6 Str

Edited by GoXDS

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Exorcist has 0 Def growth and Sorc has 5 Def growth, too. most of the magic units have comparable Str to Def growth (like, only Orochi has a difference of 15%). though they'd probably reclass to something that gives Def growths (if they even have access)

mages probably won't live anyways. Exorcist with 45 HP (Lol....) and 25 Def (....) though average speed of 32 while Sorc is 50 HP, 29 Def, and below average 29 Speed

(32 Str + 8 Mt + -1 WT - 29 Def + 7 (Aggressor) ) *2 = 34 for Sorc. if BS activates twice, then the Sorc only needs 12 Str, which should be quite easy.

(32 Str + 8 Mt + -1 WT - 25 Def + 7 (Aggressor) ) *2 = 42 for Exorcist. just need 1 BS against 6 Str

There is a difference between having low defensive growth and low strength when caring about PvP. You can use stat up items to cover your defensive growth. You WON'T use stat up items on your strength. Having 12 strength on something with less than 25% strength growth is actually pretty hard.

EDIT: Also the sorcerer needs 16 strength by your calculation, not 12.

Edited by Psyruby

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There is a difference between having low defensive growth and low strength when caring about PvP. You can use stat up items to cover your defensive growth. You WON'T use stat up items on your strength. Having 12 strength on something with less than 25% strength growth is actually pretty hard.

fair enough. did calcs and saw how low some of these can be. Orochi only reaching 3.6 if you want to promote her instantly and don't use stat ups and Elise can get to 8.67 so with stat ups she can be 7.33 (2 Def stat ups)

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fair enough. did calcs and saw how low some of these can be. Orochi only reaching 3.6 if you want to promote her instantly and don't use stat ups and Elise can get to 8.67 so with stat ups she can be 7.33 (2 Def stat ups)

Looking back on it, yeah Breaking Sky is valid, but I felt the need to point out a flaw of the skill, I still hold by tho that Rescue isn't 100% broken to the point of other broken combos being nothing compared to it.

Rescue is more like a combo deck in a card game(MtG). 95% of all normal teams are going to be DESTROYED by it, but the people who think about making their team with the big strategies in mind will try to use one of the available units that can make the combo not work. Rescue CAN be countered BECAUSE it requires a lot of resources to have it running(provided we don't give it LoD, EV, Copycat, or Lethality). You have to have two staff users, a bruiser, and 2 free units. However, the combo is effectively destroyed when you get rid of even one of the 3 units(especially one of the staff users) and it has units that it can't OHKO. Don't just sit there and say you can't beat it, think of ways around it, and when you can't find a good way around it, that's when you have consider banning/restricting something.

Edited by Psyruby

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Yeah I don't think FE's suitable for PvP really, at least in the traditional sense. The two biggest flaws with how FE battles work in a PvP environment is the mobility creep. So if teams have warp staves and rescue staves. Shadow Dragon/New Mystery did a lot to try to counter that with permanent FoW but even it had a lot of issues that led to it being abandoned quickly because of so many elements that centralized the metagame.

Now compare it to Fates which not only lacks the FoW counter (I think) but also has a lot of cap mods and cheesy skill combos. I don't think there's going to be a healthy, long lasting metagame here. The best you can do to combine FE with PvP is Link Arena but even that has its problems.

I agree with this entirely, its a nice nod to those who did enjoy the small bits of PvP, but I don't see anything serious coming out of it.

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There is a difference between having low defensive growth and low strength when caring about PvP. You can use stat up items to cover your defensive growth. You WON'T use stat up items on your strength. Having 12 strength on something with less than 25% strength growth is actually pretty hard.

EDIT: Also the sorcerer needs 16 strength by your calculation, not 12.

Whoops. Didn't mean to post.

Edited by Psyruby

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@Psyruby at least the flaw isn't likely to be too common. pure magic users just have it so hard when they're so paper thin (thus probably not popular)

I agree with this entirely, its a nice nod to those who did enjoy the small bits of PvP, but I don't see anything serious coming out of it.

yea, if we're to compare it to say, Pokemon, FE actually has a lot more randomness/luck involved, with these inconsistent skill proc rates. though that's after a LOT of banning in Pokemon. but Pokemon has a lot more mechanics/variety let after banning while FE just doesn't have enough and banning a lot could hurt a lot of its potential/variety

Edited by GoXDS

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@Psyruby at least the flaw isn't likely to be too common. pure magic users just have it so hard when they're so paper thin (thus probably not popular)

yea, if we're to compare it to say, Pokemon, FE actually has a lot more randomness/luck involved, with these inconsistent skill proc rates. though that's after a LOT of banning in Pokemon.

lol, if we really wanted to get rid of the MAJORITY of problems in FE with the least amount of banning... we'd just ban Brave Weapons.... Kind of funny when you think about it. Those damn things cause the most amount of issues, but we love them so much as an idea to break.

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lol, if we really wanted to get rid of the MAJORITY of problems in FE with the least amount of banning... we'd just ban Brave Weapons.... Kind of funny when you think about it. Those damn things cause the most amount of issues, but we love them so much as an idea to break.

let's bring out the ban hammer then, shall we? ^^

actually, you're right. love those things too much.

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