Is Kamui a Mary Sue?

[Yari]

The fact that Kamui believes he made the wrong choice when choosing Nohr makes him not a Mary Sue. Arguably Hoshido and all of its residents are Mary Sues, with Kamui having lost some of it due to living away from home for so long.

You just called Hoshido and all of its residents the worst insult it could ever be made to a character just because Kamui was naive enough to believe a country was perfect for what little he/she knew of it? Okay. But honestly the fact that Kamui regrets joining Nohr just throws him/her deeper into the naive territory in my opinion. And I'm not saying that just because I side with Hoshido I also really like Nohr (except it's story) but I think that regret makes Kamui go deeper inside the naive hole.

[Sunwoo]

No, because "Mary Sue" is (or should be, dagnabbit) exclusively a fanfiction term.

I completely disagree. Mary Sue should not be exclusively a fanfiction term. It's a no-brainer that most published works are of higher quality than fanfiction -- they have to be sent to a publisher first! But every once in a while you get something that can only be described as "utter crap". Why is Twilight popular? It's not because it's some literary genius. It's popular because it caters to a common fantasy of a particularly vocal demographic. And its main character, Bella, is arguably one of the biggest Mary Sues in literature. Is Bella suddenly not a Mary Sue because Twilight isn't fanfiction? I think not. Even if the term has had its start in fanfiction, it should be able to be applied to published literature, if applicable.

A Mary Sue to me is a character who makes other people act unrealistically towards them to the point of absurdity. A character can have all the "common traits" and still not be a Mary Sue if they are written well. Do people suddenly act differently than what they are stated to be like when the Mary Sue is around? Do people who not like them (even for justified reasons) get portrayed as "bad" or "mean" or get some disproportionate retribution as a result? That's a Mary Sue, and it definitely can be seen in actual literature.

I have to say that Kamui is a Mary Sue. Probably the biggest one I can think of in FE. From what I have seen of the story and of the translation, Kamui seems to be a bit more guilty of various Mary Sue traits than some of the other lords. (I have only played FE6-11 and 13, and very little of 6, so I will keep my argument to FEs 7-11 and 13. Also, may include spoilers.)

The major theme in Fates is Kamui's Nohr and Hoshido families, and how he must choose between them. Think about this for a second -- his families are literally fighting over him. They're fighting over this "special" child who has shaped the way that their entire lives went. And yes, I agree that it's natural to not want to lose your family to someone else, whether they're adopted and you grew up with them or you lost them and now you're getting them back. But it bothers me just how Kamui-centric some of the siblings are. Sometimes, the narrative and the siblings' demeanor makes it sound like Kamui is the biggest thing about the war, his "betrayal", which is ridiculous to be honest. Yes, it's more personal, but he's not the entire war.

Kamui is special "just because", there's no reason to it. Let's take a look back at some of the other lords and how they had ended up in the position they were in. Roy became the leader of the Lycian Alliance because Hector died and his father was ill. Eliwood and Hector were more in the "wrong place, wrong time", and not chosen for some greater calling. Lyn has that one "sword choosing her" in the beginning, but it doesn't do anything that give her a pref weapon, so we can just say she was just there as well. Eirika and Ephraim weren't special either, they just happened to be part of one of Magvel's royal families and close friends with the big bad. Ike was in the "right place" at the "right time". He wouldn't have become Tellius's hero if he'd never met Elincia. RD might not have happened, or at least not in the way we know it. Micaiah, I used to think she was a Sue, but I don't think so anymore. Sure, she gets pushed as being "special", but ultimately the plot goes nowhere with it and goes back to fawning over Ike instead.

Robin was generally considered a Mary Sue, and I can see why. He's praised for all of his ridiculous tactics! He's the vessel of a dark god, but love and friendship conquered all and brought him back to life! He can also marry everyone, gender permitting. But when compared to Kamui, Robin at least has reasons for some of the things he did. Robin is supposed to be a tactical genius in the narrative. Kamui's just some naive kid who grew up in a tower who still got put in charge of an army despite having two older siblings and and a more experienced younger sibling on both sides. The Grimleal and Chrom's faction fighting over Robin makes sense because Robin is an avatar of destruction. The Grimleal only want him to revive Grima, and even if Robin's their friend it is in Chrom's best interests to not let this evil cult get ahold of his friend, who has the potential to destroy the world. It could have been so much more interesting if Kamui's dragon powers were part of the reason everyone wanted them. But it's never brought up again after chapter 5, and his siblings just love him THAT MUCH. Also, why did the Yatogami choose him? What makes him so special so that this sacred weapon chooses him? It's not really explained, if at all.

[spoiler=MAJOR NOHR SPOILERS]I've read a lot about and asked people for details on the Nohr path, because I find that compared to the Hoshido and Invisible routes, Kamui's Mary Sue-ness particularly shines here. Particularly the ending. Because as the game draws to a close, Kamui and his Nohr siblings must invade Hoshido to sit Garon's ass on the Hoshido throne to reveal his true nature as a slime monster -- wait, "must"? Surely there are some better courses of action than whatever the hell Kamui is doing here, isn't this going to cost more Hoshidan lives and make his Hoshidan siblings more pissed with him? Especially with Iago and Ganz massacring and ordering massacres left and right? Well, you'd think so … but apparently they forgive him? I mean, the sisters are alive at the end but apparently they're not mad at Kamui for all the unnecessary destruction he brought into Hoshido, which surely has to be in some state of ruin by now with several of its countrymen lost. You'd think that at least it's way too soon to even think about forgiving Kamui for what he's done. But apparently, they're not that mad?

And that's not even bringing up the two brothers, who are dead because of Kamui. Ryouma apparently commits suicide to protect Kamui from being executed by Garon? And look, I get that Ryouma had no real course of action. It was either die by Kamui's hand or die by Garon's hand and watch Kamui die. I totally get that he wanted to go out on his own terms. But I don't see why he had to die to protect Kamui. Why couldn't he have died to spite Garon (and Kamui) in a "fuck you both, if I'm dying I'm dying because I say so!" kind of way? And he also forgave Kamui in the dream sequence … for invading his country and killing his countrymen, as well as his subordinates? Takumi is even a bigger offender of that, because he never liked you in the first place. Why should he forgive you, after you invaded his country, killed his subordinates, and leveled his army? And why are you talking like your justified distrust/dislike of Kamui in Nohr route at least is the reason this entire shit started?

I think Takumi forgiving Kamui is one of the biggest indicators of Kamui being a Mary Sue for me. Remember what I wrote in the second paragraph? "A Mary Sue to me is a character who makes other people act unrealistically towards them to the point of absurdity. […] Do people who not like them (even for justified reasons) get portrayed as "bad" or "mean" or get some disproportionate retribution as a result?" That's basically this situation. Takumi forgiving Kamui in the last stretch when he has the least reason to is him acting unrealistically to the point of absurdity. His apologizing that his hatred for Kamui being the reason all of this happened is his justified distrust being portrayed as "bad" or "mean" -- and yeah, I'd say being the final boss in possessed form is disproportionate retribution at its best.

I definitely think there's a case for Kamui to be a Mary Sue. They're just portrayed as being special when they don't really have any reason to be special, and so many characters love them to the point where not even Robin or Ike were loved.

[The DanMan]

I'd have to say yes. Sunwoo laid it down, and he laid it down damn good.

This is why I want the Avatar to be gone from Fire Emblem; IS has shown that they can't write them as anything but Sues. (Wait, IS has shown they can't write, period.)

[Shin]

It's somewhat inevitable with characters that are meant to represent the player. Even in other series, a customisable protagonist lacks depth, with most of their traits being vaguely positive, such as being honest, loyal etc. This isn't necessarily the end of the world, but when they're the centre of attention and have nothing to really criticise, they end up being worshipped by everyone and fulfilling some sort of destiny.

Even in games where there's some sort of choice, the protagonist is steered towards saving the day, so there's not often a whole lot of variation.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Personally I can't say much on Kamui himself as I know basically nothing about him, but I want to address an argument that bothers me.

I'd also like to agree that a videogame protagonist doesn't have to be a mary sue. Yes, in the FE series they have to be good combatants, but that's it. They don't have to be hyper-naive idiots that literally everyone loves because reasons.

You know what character would work really well in FE? Robb Stark.

He was a good fighter, a better tactician, and a great dude. Every fight he ever fought in he won, but he still lost the war. Killed while trying to make a peace treaty, and made into little more than a grisly joke.

Here's the thing, none of what I just wrote up there wouldn't work in FE. Sure that campaign would be short, and dark for FE, but it would still work. Heck just get rid of that last part, and it wouldn't even be overly dark.

Preach it! *waves hands back and forth*

ASOIAF as a whole could work beautifully for FE. There are downright shocking similarities between Daenerys and Micaiah actually. Like how they appear, who they are, how they are viewed by the ones they lead even. (Dany is just privy to BARGELOADS of character development that Micaiah had no chance of.) Id wager someone in IS was actually influenced by the character of Daenerys somehow, that they wrote up Micaiah. If the latter is not outright inspired by the former, ill eat my fucking helm!

As for Kamui, all ive been reading about this figure, points to Suedom. Sheer. Shameless. Suedom. Robin, imo, is a Sue. A bit less of a Sue than Kamui? Yeah probably. But Robin is still a goddamn Sue. Boron and others have a point that every little thing does not revolve solely around Robin though. Characters still act in a more natural way in Awakening. (for the most part) But characters literally go against their very natures to serve Kamui's purpose. Marx pulls a Stannis Baratheon and just grinds his teeth all during Nohr route and lets Kamui make all the decisions? Really? (Remember how Stannis gets so much cooler in ASOIAF ignore the show for a moment after he begins really making decisions independently from Melisandre? why the fuck isnt Marx doing this?) Kamui obviously has the stupidest plan in existence. Thats not even going into what i heard about Aqua's harebrained schemes. Yet everyone is gung-ho about it. Boron went into more detail about stuff so i need not repeat what she said.

Its natural to expect a measure of player favoritism in an Avatar character. Our guy is programmed to save the day and people are going to expect it. But when people insert themselves into stories or games, they want to see characters react more naturally, and get sucked into that world. Using ASOIAF again as an example, a lot of us get wrapped up in seeing that world through the eyes of "heroic" characters like Jon Snow, Arya, Ned (in the first book), Sansa, Tyrion, and Dany. Dany in particular, because her's is a story seen only through her eyes or POV up until the fifth book. But the world around her and the other characters, do not completely cater to them. They face consequences, hardships, realistic reactions, etc. I know that in games like Mass Effect, you choose Shepherd's actions and the game will move at a different pattern to respond to that. (the beauty of dialogue trees) Shepherd could be considered a Mary Sue character, but the stories flow a bit more naturally to accommodate the player's decisions.

Even in Awakening, not everything ever revolved around Robin. The Valm arc, as filler and bad as it was, did not revolve around Robin. That part of the game was about Walhart's attempt to remove the Grimleal from the land and our heroes trying to stop a mass genocide/conquest they saw as unjust. Chrom and Say'ri (mostly Chrom) and the Khans really were the focus of that arc. The only real part of the game's story that revolved solely around Robin, was the third act of it. The first act was Chrom's tale of How His Sister Unfairly BS'd Her Way Out Of Her Responsibilities. Everything in Fates seems to be about Kamui. Everything. Why does Yatogami choose him/her? We simply dont know other than because. Because the game said so.

The lengths the devs went to, to make everything revolve around Kamui (to the point of handwaving blood relations away so you can marry those characters) is pretty...overboard. And the result is a big fat Mary Sue. Am i arsed and salty? Not really. But i cannot ignore issues in the narrative itself because of it.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Loki Laufeyson

[Gomez_Addams]

...It appears that no one in this thread knows what a Mary Sue is.

[Terrador]

Lo, cite your definition if you are so certain. Saying that alone contributes, eh... what, exactly, to this discussion?

[Thane]

...It appears that no one in this thread knows what a Mary Sue is.

What an absolute insult to the people who have written elaborate responses. What, exactly, are you contributing with this pathetic reply? Did you even read my original post, or any of the other more detailed posts that explained their take on the trope?

[Integrity]

and that's shut down now thanks

[Alazen]

No Kamui is not a Mary Sue, because being called a Mary Sue has devolved into nothing more than a negative label and buzzword used against characters and authors that a person does not like.

Also, if we're really serious about labeling Mary Sues, basically every Lord in the series is one.

How come so many apologists for Awakening and Fates pull the "Older ones do it too!" card?

How can you seriously put a customizable character who directs the army without the grounds to, have the one sibling who doesn't go out of his way to trust him be portrayed as damn wrong, and other cases too spoiler filled to mention in this post on the same level as Sigurd or Leif?

[Water Mage]

One thing that I realized by reading this thread, is that no one here seems to agree on what a Mary Sue is, but unlike Gomez, I don't think this is a bad thing.

The Mary Sue character archetype is actually something very new to the writting world, not to say that they didn't exist before, but only recently that we started that we started identifying characters as such. If I'm not mistaken the first time the term was used, was in the seventies, in a Star Trek fanfiction I believe. To the writting world, that's very recent.

And because it's so recent is the reason we can't agree on what a Mary Sue is. Honestly I don't think we will ever reach an agreement on what a Mary Sue is, and if Kamui is a Mary Sue or not.

Instead of trying to convice others as to what a Mary Sue is, I think it's better, and healthier, if we use this thread to state our own opinions as to why do you think Kamui is a Mary Sue or to say why you think he is not a Mary Sue.

Let's keep this friendly, okay?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Water Mage

[Alazen]

Kamui wouldn't be such a shoddy character if his characterization was far more than what you'd see for a lead character in a manga like Naruto. It's not as if the traits of a lead character like that are needed to have an army under your command march to what could be mass death.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[HeartTranquil]

Is the p3mc and the p4mc from Persona the same as Avatar from FE? I mean both are silent portags? Both are swagtagonists too right? Everyone loves the mcs in Persona!

And compared to Avatar from Fates?

[Thane]

One thing that I realized by reading this thread, is that no one here seems to agree on what a Mary Sue is, but unlike Gomez, I don't think this is a bad thing.

The Mary Sue character archetype is actually something very new to the writting world, not to say that they didn't exist before, but only recently that we started that we started identifying characters as such. If I'm not mistaken the first time the term was used, was in the seventies, in a Star Trek fanfiction I believe. To the writting world, that's very recent.

And because it's so recent is the reason we can't agree on what a Mary Sue is. Honestly I don't think we will ever reach an agreement on what a Mary Sue is, and if Kamui is a Mary Sue or not.

Instead of trying to convice others as to what a Mary Sue is, I think it's better, and healthier, if we use this thread to state our own opinions as to why do you think Kamui is a Mary Sue or to say why you think he is not a Mary Sue.

Let's keep this friendly, okay?

I agree, I created this thread to have a proper discussion, not arguments.

While it's difficult to agree on exactly what makes a Mary Sue, I believe most of us can at least agree on certain aspects, like a seemingly inexplicable popularity and characters not acting like they should when dealing with the Sue.

Holy crap I really have to go to bed. I hope this thread survives in my absence.

[Loki Laufeyson]

One thing that I realized by reading this thread, is that no one here seems to agree on what a Mary Sue is, but unlike Gomez, I don't think this is a bad thing.

The Mary Sue character archetype is actually something very new to the writting world, not to say that they didn't exist before, but only recently that we started that we started identifying characters as such. If I'm not mistaken the first time the term was used, was in the seventies, in a Star Trek fanfiction I believe. To the writting world, that's very recent.

And because it's so recent is the reason we can't agree on what a Mary Sue is. Honestly I don't think we will ever reach an agreement on what a Mary Sue is, and if Kamui is a Mary Sue or not.

Instead of trying to convice others as to what a Mary Sue is, I think it's better, and healthier, if we use this thread to state our own opinions as to why do you think Kamui is a Mary Sue or to say why you think he is not a Mary Sue.

Let's keep this friendly, okay?

I thought this is what we were doing.

What Mary Sue is, is a figure so perfect in the eyes of the narrative itself, the plot and characters in that universe literally bend to suit the needs of Mary Sue. In ways that go against the nature of characters, plot, etc. The majority of the well thought out responses here agree on that point. Robin is a Mary Sue imo, because he/she is inexplicably gifted, everyone really does love Robin, he/she is never called out on anything they do, and the plot bends for them. Kamui is a worse one because all of this happens, plus more. Robin had the excuse of being bred to be Grima's vessel. Kamui has.....????

[spoiler=Invisible Kingdom Spoilers]

From what i understand, Kamui is actually the Big Bad's/Hydra child or something. Mikoto coupled with this character, and thus Kamui happened. However, not much else is told about the nature of Kamui. We know they can shift into a dragon, but...yeah. Yatogami's choice makes no sense. Other than being able to shift into a dragon, what is really that special about Kamui? Why do his/her siblings basically revolve their entire agendas around Kamui? What do they have to gain from it? This is never discussed according to those whove played all three routes. Thats....a real big mark of Mary Sue-dom right there.

Thane spoke of an almost ludicrous amount of player/hero worship in-universe. This is a warning sign that you might have a Mary Sue on your hands. In Twilight, just about everyone loved Bella. If they didnt, they were seen as bad, not worth knowing, shitty, or villainous. (yet, the main antagonists wanted her for themselves anyway) Plus she gets some really stupid and unexplained power at the end of the series. What. We already talked about how Takumi gets treated as horribly in the wrong for distrusting Kamui, and his role in the Nohr route. Thats just...what the hell? Why?

Kamui is a Mary Sue. Its pretty clear. Even as far as an avatar character goes, he/she is really Sue.

[Alazen]

Seeing the likes of Robin and Kamui makes you miss Micaiah all the more.

[Zachmac]

I think most of us can agree that a Mary Sue is a cliche, poorly written self-insert made to make a fanfiction author feel good about themselves.

Corrin/Kamui is a cliche, poorly written "self-insert" made to make the player feel better then themselves.

Even if you'd argue s/he's not a Mary Sue, s/he's pretty dang close. There roles are basically exactly the same.

Why'd I even make him my avatar I don't even know.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Zachmac

[iZallen]

So.. pretty much; any character we have full direct control over could be considered a mary sue..?

But honestly; if you look at Kamui in general, possibly. But because that character is supposed to be our avatar; aka, me, you, etc. It's pretty much an exempt.

[Sunsurge]

I suppose I should start talking about what I consider a Mary Sue. In short, I consider it someone who warps the story around them to an impossible degree. By that I mean the story and its cast feel like they're there to serve the Mary Sue, rather than playing on an even field - people take a strong liking to the Mary Sue for no real reason and go out of their way to defend them be it from physical harm or just a debate, characters who don't like the Mary Sue are often portrayed as being in the wrong and might even become villains later, sometimes because of sheer jealousy. The rest of the cast also likes to talk about the Mary Sue when they're not there, thus making them the center of attention even while not on screen. It's also common that the world in which a Mary Sue lives also has several items, artifacts or something along those lines just waiting for the Mary Sue to use them.

By this definition, nearly every main character in ANY normal story or video game is a Mary Sue. Idk. As an avid writer (and by default reader), it seems almost every main character can easily fit most of these, because they are such broad strokes. A main character is the main character, and usually the story is revolved around them. And usually, the cast is there to serve the main character, because since the story revolves around the main character, the characters introduced would usually have some major interaction/help toward the main character.

People taking a strong liking to the main character sounds more like bad writing. A Mary Sue would be better defined by someone with a wealth of negative traits that all the characters ignore conveniently, OR someone with a wealth of ONLY positive traits without a single nuance.

And usually a main character (usually in fantasy) DOES have something meant just for them, or some power only they can wield. It's storytelling. And there's only so much you can do in the confines of any book or game.

I think your definition is too broad, because it can be applied to almost anyone. From what I've learned a Mary Sue is usually little miss/mr. perfect, without development because they don't NEED development (read: perfect), and they accomplish ALL their goals without a single struggle or issue, aside from perhaps one conveniently thrown in 'struggle', that has more to do with the side characters than the actual mary sue character themselves.

Either way, from what I've seen/read I kinda am halfway. It does sometimes seem like Kamui is a mary sue, but other times I honestly just feel as if Kamui was just REALLY poorly written---which you can always argue are basically the same thing (sometimes they are), but in this case, it seems far more likely they just missed the ball on personality/writing.

[ivanhellsing]

Seeing the likes of Robin and Kamui makes you miss Micaiah all the more.

let not be THAT desperate lol

[lysander]

By this definition, nearly every main character in ANY normal story or video game is a Mary Sue.

Yeah, that was basically my take-away from that. Even just going through all of the FE lords they hit on most of those points, are not considered Mary Sues and, in some ways, Kamui is even less glaring with the flaws he shares with them. People do not join him much less trust him easily. Even on IK he has to really work for what he gets whereas a lord like Ike generally does not. There are even people who won't join him, despite their relationship.

More generally, I don't think applying labels to this or that gets anybody anywhere in terms of criticism or analysis. You can examine the overall quality of this protagonist or that protagonist much more accurately without using a label like Mary Sue. More explanation might be required, initially, but it'll be more accurately understood and an overall more accurate analysis for it.

[Alazen]

Tell me how Leif or Sigurd or Micaiah are even close to Kamui. Does Kamui die a pawn? Get a large chunk of his army killed?

let not be THAT desperate lol

What? She's not on their level. She not not only committed war crimes, but had multiple characters who didn't go out of their way to trust or otherwise back her without being treated as damn wrong. Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, that was basically my take-away from that. Even just going through all of the FE lords they hit on most of those points, are not considered Mary Sues and, in some ways, Kamui is even less glaring with the flaws he shares with them. People do not join him much less trust him easily. Even on IK he has to really work for what he gets whereas a lord like Ike generally does not. There are even people who won't join him, despite their relationship.

I have to disagree with this. If we were looking at Ike using Radiant Dawn in a void, then this would be true. But to really analyze Ike you have to look at both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. In PoR, what happens immediately after Greil dies? Shinon and Gatrie leave the company, and Shinon was a lot more hostile about it. Mist and Rolf decide that they can't stand back and watch anyone else die and join the group, and even then in chapter 8 the team was almost wiped out.

Sure, Ike has the support of laguz, but it's not like this came easily to him. Mordecai and Lethe along with the Gallian king, yeah, but look at the bird tribes. Reyson swore him out when Ike tried to help him the first time, and is one-half of the reason that the four-part chapter 17 even happened (the other half being Oliver). It wasn't until Ike protected Leanne and she convinced Reyson to forgive the Apostle that the bird tribes ever joined you, let alone trust you.

He doesn't get Shinon back on his team until he kicks his ass, and even then Shinon never truly likes or respects Ike. Even up into RD, he's that one guy who doesn't like Ike. But he is never trashed by the narrative of the game itself for not liking Ike, and at this point most of the other characters don't really seem to care that he dislikes Ike. That's a stark contrast to how Takumi's dislike of Kamui is treated by other characters AND the narrative.

Ike is many things, and I can understand why people see him as a Mary Sue. However, I very strongly disagree with the argument that Ike did not have to really work for what he got while Kamui did. Because I do not think that is true in the least.

[Alazen]

How did IK Kamui work for what he gets more than Ike or assorted other lead units?

Takumi joins after Izana dies in the process of delivering a prophecy, Sakura trusts Kamui, Leon and Marx overheard Fake Garon's dastardly plan, etc. Am I supposed to see Kamui's amazing leadership skills and great struggle here?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Alazen

[Dark Holy Elf]

I have to disagree with this. If we were looking at Ike using Radiant Dawn in a void, then this would be true. But to really analyze Ike you have to look at both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. In PoR, what happens immediately after Greil dies? Shinon and Gatrie leave the company, and Shinon was a lot more hostile about it. Mist and Rolf decide that they can't stand back and watch anyone else die and join the group, and even then in chapter 8 the team was almost wiped out.

Ike gets handed the leadership of the Greil Mercenaries despite the fact that he's 16-17 and there are many other competent, more senior members of the group to lead it (Titania most obviously) because... his dad led it I guess? But everyone gushes about what a good leader Ike will be, I pretty much remember that being the majority of the Ike/Oscar support which I get every single playthrough and am thankful the start button is a thing. The one character who disagrees with this decision, Shinon, is a composite of negative traits: racist, money-loving, disrespectful to his comrades. His disliking Ike kinda gets thrown in with that, I never got the feeling I was supposed to agree with him even though he has a decent point about not wanting to follow some kid just because he was Greil's son.

I do agree that he had to work to get some of what he earns (particularly Sanaki's trust. Sanaki is one of the most refreshing characters in PoR because of this) but he gets an awful lot with very little effort: the leadership of the Greil Mercenaries, the respect of all of them except the one you're told is an unsympathetic douchebag (and Gatrie I guess, but Gatrie is generally shown as weak-willed and easily pushed around by Shinon, and joins up pretty fast when you meet him again), the respect of everyone who knew Greil (who himself is a huge Gary Stu, but I digress), particularly Caineghis. There are worse than him in the series, but even in Ike's less Stu-y game he's a pretty problematic character I feel.

I haven't played Fates yet but I think Fire Emblem in general has a big problem with these sorts of characters and it's a big reason why it's less respected for writing than various other RPG series.