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PvP Rulesets  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. Which ruleset do you like?

    • No Rules
      5
    • Balanced
      1
    • Odin's Sphere
      5
    • No Rules & Balanced
      2
    • No Rules & Odin's Sphere
      3
    • Balanced & Odin's Sphere
      17
    • All
      5
    • None. (FE isn't a PvP game.)
      3
  2. 2. Do you think Odin's Sphere does its job(to maximize interest) properly?

    • Yes.
      18
    • No.
      7
    • Needs tweaking.
      16


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(if tl:dr, then just read the rules, pros, cons of each ruleset and then vote)

I have created 3 distinct PvP rules that are appealing to most individuals. If anyone wants to give feedback, I encourage them to post below. I will only change a rule in each ruleset if someone proves that specific rule is outright toxic, useless, or needs tweaking.

No Rules(Maximizes Freedom)
1) No Rules.

Just like it states, there are no limitations. Most people will probably use these rules just cause they are the simplest and anything is allowed. In a meta like this, everyone has the capability to ORKO through damage, skills, lethality, criticals, and copycat shenanigans and tanking isn't even possible other than the General taking two rounds instead of one like other units.

Pros:
Simple Rules.
Fast matches.
Doesn't interfere with single player options.

Cons:
Unbalanced.
Favors aggro way too much.
The game becomes a movement war.

Balanced(Maximizes Player Interaction)

1) No Boots.
2) No Forged Weapons.
3) No Copycat.
4) No Brave Weapons.

Alright, so I just need to say it. Brave weapons break the game by allowing good sets to be broken sets. You can ORKO every unit not specifically made to counteract Brave Weapon ORKOs. This limits options and favors just ORKOing instead of trying to interact with the opponent, but you don't want to get rid of all these lovely options(well except Copycat, that's broken by itself). Instead, you just get rid of what they all have in common. For those that are worried, you can still ORKO even generals, but specific builds are needed and these builds have counters. This allows you to use tanky classes to well.... tank. And yes, Lightning(the tome) isn't banned. This gives mages a favorable niche while not making them overpowered(as they are quite squishy and Lightning is quite weak without being able to forge). You can still counteract this strategy with the right build.

Forged weapons are banned for a couple reasons. A) You aren't favoring player interaction by encouraging them to grind just to keep up with others. B) There is absolutely no opportunity cost to forging except time. Forged weapons are strictly better than unforged. C) They push critical builds over the top. They will start ORKOing too many units with even limited forged weapon.

Boots are banned for very similar reasons. A) It's just favorable to have more boots, which isn't adding to player interaction. B) Boots affect different classes(and characters), well, differently. Flying units(and Takumi) are favored to use boots more than non-flying.

Finally Copycat is broken, It's a free action somewhere else on the map. Allowing copycat is saying you require every character to have copycat, and that adds nothing to the game.

Pros:

Simple rules.
Balanced Gameplay.
Aggro and Defensive Play are equal in power.

Cons:
Can't use a few of the fun options.
Games may take longer than you like.
Interferes with how you play single player.

And the final Ruleset:

Odin's Sphere(Maximizes Interest)
1) One Boot per team allowed.
2) Forged Weapons only allowed to +1.
3) Copycat restricted to one unit.
4) Only one Brave Weapon(can be +1) per team allowed.

So, you want broken stuff but still want balance(and maybe you want Odin's ability to actually do something in a semi balanced environment), then these are the rules for you. Sure you can ORKO like before with one unit, but it's painting a giant target on that unit's back. These rules give boots, copycat, and brave weapons an opportunity cost when attaching them to a unit, but still allows you to use them.

Pros:
Semi balanced gameplay.
Favors Aggro, but defensive play is still a good option.
Favors a faster paced match.

Cons:
Rules are somewhat complicated in comparison.
Interferes with single player slightly.

Edited by Psyruby

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weapon dlc just makes a mess of weapon availability balance. there's a reason why you can only get 1 Brave of each type T_T

btw, does Odin's Sphere strictly limit to 1 Brave or 1 Brave of each kind (probably former since latter doesn't do much then but just confirming)

Edited by GoXDS

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weapon dlc just makes a mess of weapon availability balance. there's a reason why you can only get 1 Brave of each type T_T

btw, does Odin's Sphere strictly limit to 1 Brave or 1 Brave each (probably former since latter doesn't do much then but just confirming)

Only one brave weapon for the entire party. If you let multiple units have brave weapons, you will allow everyone to become broken with ORKOs.

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I said Odin's Sphere and Balanced.

While personally I will be going all out with every best thing I have normally, if we do plan on having tournaments here I think the rules you made are quite good and aren't strict to point that the battles are boring but not loose to point battles are unfair.

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what do you think of no buying skills?

it'd be hard to enforce so it'd be a honor system mostly in the end. with buying skills, pairings and character base sets become very arbitrary. Kamui's partner can have any class on top of any skill set. the other 3 units (or 4 if no Kamui...?) are a little more restricted but can still basically have any and all skill sets.

pros:

less emphasis on a singular OP skill set and may help encourage/force diversity

makes it a little more balanced since OP skill sets can't be everywhere

easier for the average person to be involved since they're not forced to try to find (or set up themselves) skills to buy

cons:

does interfere with single player since pairings matter a lot more now

honor system enforcement

might be too restrictive and will limit the viable pool of units to a very small meta (though I don't think this is the case and shouldn't be an issue)

Edited by GoXDS

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I honestly think it would be fine.Maybe a limit like, no more then 2 buyable skills on a character.While I would not use it, I know a lot of others would.

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what do you think of no buying skills?

it'd be hard to enforce so it'd be a honor system mostly in the end. with buying skills, pairings and character base sets become very arbitrary. Kamui's partner can have any class on top of any skill set. the other 3 units (or 4 if no Kamui...?) are a little more restricted but can still basically have any and all skill sets.

pros:

less emphasis on a singular OP skill set and may help encourage/force diversity

makes it a little more balanced since OP skill sets can't be everywhere

easier for the average person to be involved since they're not forced to try to find (or set up themselves) skills to buy

cons:

does interfere with single player since pairings matter a lot more now

honor system enforcement

might be too restrictive and will limit the viable pool of units to a very small meta (though I don't think this is the case and shouldn't be an issue)

I would consider this a custom mode for 2 close friends to use. The issue with this unlike boots and forging is that skills have an opportunity cost(the skill slot) and promote interaction(or the denial of interaction) with the other player. So even tho it might be perceived as a pain to get the skills like forging, it's not like having a certain skill makes you strictly better off.

(basically, the effort to maintain this rule is not worth the payoff)

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My experience with this game's PvP is somewhat limited (I'm actually in the process of building a squad at the moment), but I think it goes without saying that is not going to played seriously by more than a small niche group of players, and as such will not have the wide range of thoughts and perspectives to fairly determine what's broken and needing of bans for some kind of standard meta.

For general matchmaking purposes around here the "No rules" list makes the most sense for this kind of game, being the most inclusive and easy to understand without forcing players to change how they play through the single player. Telling someone they can't use the characters they want because they used a Boots on them during the campaign is a nice way to ensure that they'll be sticking with the game's random matchmaker.

Ultimately I don't think any kind of standard needs to be agreed upon. If any players take issue with free-for-all's there's always the option to gentlemen like-minded players to whatever rules they want. For games like this with such a small base of players, I can can't see how imposing a complex rule set will do anything more than inhibit potential growth.

Edit: apparently the issue of buying skills came up while I was typing this. Restricting such a significant component of the My Castle feature isn't really wise, given how it barely changes what skills are obtainable in a single player run (you can buy your own skills from other files as well, just play multiple times through to get what you want), and only serves to make team building more of a grind than it already is...

Edited by DLNarshen

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Also, for Balanced you said Lightning was not banned, but what about Snake God?

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Also, for Balanced you said Lightning was not banned, but what about Snake God?

Snake God, Mighty Kunai, and Mighty Bow are all the brave version of ranged weapons(with rather poor name choices). They will not be allowed in balanced and count as a brave weapon in Odin's Sphere. I think that's balanced cause ranged weapons are actually the easiest way to ORKO even in Balanced and Odin's Sphere due to the physical weapons having rather poor option to respond to ranged weapons(unless you have defensive formation, are faster, or can use Magic Swords/Lances/Axes well).

Edited by Psyruby

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My experience with this game's PvP is somewhat limited (I'm actually in the process of building a squad at the moment), but I think it goes without saying that is not going to played seriously by more than a small niche group of players, and as such will not have the wide range of thoughts and perspectives to fairly determine what's broken and needing of bans for some kind of standard meta.

For general matchmaking purposes around here the "No rules" list makes the most sense for this kind of game, being the most inclusive and easy to understand without forcing players to change how they play through the single player. Telling someone they can't use the characters they want because they used a Boots on them during the campaign is a nice way to ensure that they'll be sticking with the game's random matchmaker.

Ultimately I don't think any kind of standard needs to be agreed upon. If any players take issue with free-for-all's there's always the option to gentlemen like-minded players to whatever rules they want. For games like this with such a small base of players, I can can't see how imposing a complex rule set will do anything more than inhibit potential growth.

Edit: apparently the issue of buying skills came up while I was typing this. Restricting such a significant component of the My Castle feature isn't really wise, given how it barely changes what skills are obtainable in a single player run (you can buy your own skills from other files as well, just play multiple times through to get what you want), and only serves to make team building more of a grind than it already is...

Well the intention wasn't to force the majority of players into one ruleset, but more of try to define a ruleset for people who are interested in a fulfilling metagame. I will most definitely play people with "No Rules" if they don't have a team for "Balanced" or "Odin's Sphere." However, I know some people would love to create a metagame here with complex interactions that don't strictly result in a movement based ORKO. I would like to get the ball rolling so those people are all consistent when they get the English version of the game. (Yes, this is premature by a couple months, but I'm happy that I started crunching numbers so early so I understand what are possible issues in PvP.)

Edited by Psyruby

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Why are Warrior Weapons not restricted? Double might on enemy phase.

Basically Warrior Weapons don't allow the same possibilities as Brave Weapons for two reasons.

1) Builds don't wildly fluctuate their power level. Adding 20 Attack to a Warrior Weapons makes them do 20 more damage, but adding 20 Attack to Brave Weapons makes them do 40 more damage(on the player phase).

2) Warrior weapons are a defensive weapons which means the opponent must decide to attack you, be within one range, and not kill you before you attack. This is a lot of restrictions and relies on the opponent more than yourself. Brave Weapons, on the other hand, have you decide who you attack, and you are always sure if you can kill them reliably before they get to attack. This is basically the difference in power of player and enemy phase for the player.

Edited by Psyruby

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Looking at each format as a game of its own, "Odin's Sphere" arguably has the most depth to it. I'd ask about children but I guess that is just as much a play agreement as the rest of it.

However, while Fates is miles away more (PvP) balanced than Awakening, several factors remain that, especially with grinding in the picture, indicate that it was not made with PvP in mind.

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Looking at each format as a game of its own, "Odin's Sphere" arguably has the most depth to it. I'd ask about children but I guess that is just as much a play agreement as the rest of it.

However, while Fates is miles away more (PvP) balanced than Awakening, several factors remain that, especially with grinding in the picture, indicate that it was not made with PvP in mind.

I'm not sure what you mean by children, but all of these allow children and adults for 2 reasons.

1) Children while having better stats, sometimes have mediocre abilities which is more important usually.

2) Children do not have unique weapons(outside Ophelia) which are much stronger and rated E despite having S rank power which gives a very good reason to play some of the adults over children.

Edited by Psyruby

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Alright so this poll is pretty much done, but I did notice that 8 prople voted that Odin's Sphere needed to be tweaked. What are your preferred changes?

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I'm a bit late on this but i want to partecipate.

I personally think the Odin's Sphere is pretty much near as perfect, but i think he need some clauses for special cases like the already mentioned Hoshido+Flamboyan+Lethality combo.

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Alright so this poll is pretty much done, but I did notice that 8 prople voted that Odin's Sphere needed to be tweaked. What are your preferred changes?

It's pretty much okay, but I'm just worried about how stuff like Lethality + Flamboyant + Hoshido and Line of Death + Extravagance might turn out. I don't know if it will really be that broken considering I don't have the greatest idea of how PvP is going to be like, but the skill sets are still terrifying if exploited. Not saying they should be banned, but maybe some limit placed on them?

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I have to say Odin's Sphere and No Rules. Copycat Puppet may seem broken, but it is easily punished. It also adds a lot more to the game than it takes away. I do like the forging limitations, and the Brave restrictions. One Boots seems fair enough. But only one Copycatter is what gets me.

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I have to say Odin's Sphere and No Rules. Copycat Puppet may seem broken, but it is easily punished. It also adds a lot more to the game than it takes away. I do like the forging limitations, and the Brave restrictions. One Boots seems fair enough. But only one Copycatter is what gets me.

The problem with Copycat is how overcentralising it is, a friend that has the game has mentioned how everyone just copies all of their units, along movement wars and the infamous Line of Death+Extravagance combo is to what most PvP matches seem to resume to, which lbeing honest doesn't really sound all that interesting. if you ask me.

Odin's Sphere is designed to allow players to use borderline anything they want while avoiding things like needing to have everyone with a certain skill to keep up properly as far as I can tell, and it does it's job properly as far as I can see.

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Hello, I am MAttSTER.

I have been a theorist for many metagaming communities. I specialize in game mechanic optimization.

I know this topic is just to throw out suggestions, but there are dangers to this.

1. What you are doing is known as armchair thinking - you are proposing a way to play the PvP feature without experiencing the feature yourself and with limited knowledge. In this case, you can easily overestimate or underestimate some elements.

1a. For an example, you fear Brave weapons. But the fact is that Celica's Gale was not all that useful in Awakening StreetPass. Its damage did not compare to the raw power of Valflame.

1b. You fear Copycat. Copycat implies you give up your first turn doing nothing else. But, that first turn is the most important. In Awakening StreetPass, the first turn decided who won or lost. Can you really give up that advantage just to make more units?

1c. I predict there are other strategies more unfair. Like, how broken is Freeze!?

2. Some rules are random and questionable. If you decided Boots and forge are unfair, why allow one pair and +1 Forge?

3. If online needs to be moderated, data needs to be collected first to determine exactly what is unfair. Let chaos run first.

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Hello, I am MAttSTER.

I have been a theorist for many metagaming communities. I specialize in game mechanic optimization.

I know this topic is just to throw out suggestions, but there are dangers to this.

1. What you are doing is known as armchair thinking - you are proposing a way to play the PvP feature without experiencing the feature yourself and with limited knowledge. In this case, you can easily overestimate or underestimate some elements.

1a. For an example, you fear Brave weapons. But the fact is that Celica's Gale was not all that useful in Awakening StreetPass. Its damage did not compare to the raw power of Valflame.

1b. You fear Copycat. Copycat implies you give up your first turn doing nothing else. But, that first turn is the most important. In Awakening StreetPass, the first turn decided who won or lost. Can you really give up that advantage just to make more units?

1c. I predict there are other strategies more unfair. Like, how broken is Freeze!?

2. Some rules are random and questionable. If you decided Boots and forge are unfair, why allow one pair and +1 Forge?

3. If online needs to be moderated, data needs to be collected first to determine exactly what is unfair. Let chaos run first.

Actually... while I may not have been playing PvP myself, I have been paying attention to every PvP related thread in this forum with people who have played PvP with no rules. My brave weapon logic was not from fear, but more pure statistics. Right now, the PvP metagame is dominated by ORKOs, Copycat, and movement wars.

1) The ORKOs aren't usually from pure power weapons, but more Brave Weapons being powered up to not allow the opponent to respond at all(besides counter if they are using adjacent weapons).

2) The only pure power ORKO strategy(used on sturdy units) being implemented right now is criticals.

3) Copycat IS dominating the metagame, yes you can waste a turn to double your units. The reason why this is so viable is due to how interacting with the opponent works in FE:F(and FE in general). The first turn isn't as important as the turn where you invade enemy range lines. You start on opposite ends of the map, and if you carefully move your units, you can very easily double your units with little to no interaction with the opponent(at worst they get one rescue flier to your units, which you proceed to kill with your 8 other units if they kill one of them).

4) Freeze is also much worse than Rescue strategies. The problem with offensive staves like Freeze and Draw is that they aren't reliable. The hitrate can't be affected by skills at all, and stats don't vary enough that you can dramatically increase the hitrate. Rescue on the other hand is a 100% chance of giving another unit about 6+ more movement.

5) The reason why boots and forged +1 weapons are allowed in Odin's Sphere is cause I polled people before and asked about their concerns with a restricted metagame. Most people don't like being entirely restricted(kinda natural), but if you concede a little, they are much more accepting. Example is that someone expressed fear over Odin's ability being meaningless(along with others just wanting to forge to a certain level), but many other people feared that forged weapons would be too good if they get too high a level. The +1 concession was made with both these fears in mind. +1 is only 2 more might, so while it does make forged weapons better, they are certainly not broken.

6) This probably wasn't named correctly, but basically I wanted to throw out a couple rulesets and see how people reacted to the idea. I'm more wanting to gather data for the PvP section of the game and what the people think of it. I'm not really trying to wrestle anyone into my way of thinking. I wanted to hear their thoughts. In fact, that's why No Rules(and None) is even an option. I wanted to see how many people just wanted to let PvP run its course for now.

Edited by Psyruby

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Hello, I am MAttSTER.

I have been a theorist for many metagaming communities. I specialize in game mechanic optimization.

I know this topic is just to throw out suggestions, but there are dangers to this.

1. What you are doing is known as armchair thinking - you are proposing a way to play the PvP feature without experiencing the feature yourself and with limited knowledge. In this case, you can easily overestimate or underestimate some elements.

1a. For an example, you fear Brave weapons. But the fact is that Celica's Gale was not all that useful in Awakening StreetPass. Its damage did not compare to the raw power of Valflame.

1b. You fear Copycat. Copycat implies you give up your first turn doing nothing else. But, that first turn is the most important. In Awakening StreetPass, the first turn decided who won or lost. Can you really give up that advantage just to make more units?

1c. I predict there are other strategies more unfair. Like, how broken is Freeze!?

2. Some rules are random and questionable. If you decided Boots and forge are unfair, why allow one pair and +1 Forge?

3. If online needs to be moderated, data needs to be collected first to determine exactly what is unfair. Let chaos run first.

1) but these are hard numbers? the less concrete issues like movement creep can be more debatable, sure. and some of the people here have some experience

1a) +5 Mt Celica is 9 Mt, with base Sage 46 Mag that's 55 vs say a Great Lord with base 40 Res. that's 15x2 or 30 dmg

Valflame is 16 Mt +5 Mag, so 67, thus 27 dmg. let's include Pair Up against the sage, that's +4 S Rank if 40 Res. Gale is now 11x2 for 22 and Valflame is 23. ok, Valfame wins by 1 pt. even if Limit Break for another +1, that's only 2 more dmg from Valflame. 6 if you had a Falcon Knight as Support for some reason.

but this whole time I neglected skill triggers. Celica's Gale has 2 chances, which can add 20-25 pts, way more than Valflame.

on top of that, add Aggressor. now even unforged Celica's Gale is 46+4+10 = 60 => 20x2 = 40 dmg while Valflame is 46+5+16+10 = 77 => 33 dmg only

1b) that first turn really doesn't matter bar Rescue ferry. you're not in range of each other and you can move then Copycat. and in Awakening, it's you vs NPCs. you always have advantage, first turn or not, because they don't care about letting you get first strike. it's not first turn that matters, it's first strike. and NPCs are way disadvantaged anyways because they're force spread out and no Pair Ups or Dual Guard/Strike. even if NPCs had first strike, their dmg output is vastly inferior because of no Dual Strikes while you can do Brave with Dual Strike brave for 6 strikes before a counter attack compared to NPC with only 2 with a Brave

1c) then we can bring them up and discuss them

2) this thread is to simply brainstorm ideas and list potential problems. it's not like these rules are going to be forced and enforced at this current time

Edited by GoXDS

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Honestly, for a competitive scene used here in SF community, Odin's Sphere sounds amazing. Tournaments we hold can follow this easy and it makes for a nice middle ground between complete freedom and total restriction. I say, have a file for that, and then have another file for your OP train running when doing random online battles.

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