(Spoilers) Story Portrayal of the Older Brothers

[RedMage]

There's a spoiler warning in the title, so I don't think spoiler tags are needed. Everything after this has spoilers.

I've seen a lot of threads about Kamui and Aqua in the story, but I've yet to find a detailed one one about the big brothers. I say it's safe to say that they are supposed to be the important main characters after Kamui and Aqua. The moment of choice in chapter 6 revolves around which brother wins the battle to get Kamui back. They have more dialogue time than their other siblings, and in Nohr or Hoshido, it's a battle against them before battling the final enemy. In Invisible Kingdom, it's a central point in the plot that the two brothers get along, so that Nohr and Hoshido can work together to bring down the real threat.

I don't dislike either of them. In fact, I do like both Marx and Ryouma judging on their supports alone. They have great designs too. But story-wise, I feel that they're... (can't really find the right word) lacking.

Anyone else think the story portrayal of them was flawed and underdeveloped?

This is what I think. Keep in mind that this is just all my interpretation.

The game keeps throwing in our faces about Marx's blind loyalty to Garon, but why is never explained well, if at all. Is it because he truly thinks that Garon will change after claiming Hoshido or that he can't bring himself to go against Garon because of the good father figure he once was? I guess this can be blamed how little info we get about the past Garon. But he had to have been a good father when the siblings were very young at least because of Leon's support with Elise, but if not, then Marx's blind loyalty makes zero sense for me due to his character.

The other siblings seem to blindly follow Garon out of self-preservation. It seems Camilla and Leon knows that Garon will execute them if they fail even if they're his children and this is a driving force for them to battle Kamui, as seen in Leon's conversation with Kamui after beating him in Hoshido and Camilla's convo after beating her soldiers in IK. And Elise appears scared of Garon, just more obvious about it than the others.

With Marx, it's different. His loyalty seems like the real deal and didn't result because of fear. He seems to genuinely think that things will turn out alright if he keeps following Garon's orders. Why? That's the question. It's just that because it's not explained well, Marx seems like a bad first prince. He truly wants what's good for the Nohrian people, but his blind loyalty to Garon is questionable, and it's not explained why. In fact, it's pretty hypocritical for him to say that he's doing it for the good of Nohr when it's quite obvious that Garon is being all but a good king to Nohr.

Ryouma is treated by the story, especially Hoshido, like the perfect role model of a older brother/first prince that his siblings and people look up to, but hey, he's still flawed. I think he is reckless. The most notable moment about would be his role in Chevalier in Hoshido. He goes there to get more support for Hoshido in the battle against Nohr, which is understandable, but the game shows it like he went there by himself ALONE. Yeah, he blends in with a disguise, but come on, he's the first prince. I know he knows how important his life is to Hoshido judging by his retreat quote.

He leaves behind Saizou (I don't think it's clear in the game, but he "disappears" in front of Saizou, but unlike with Takumi's disappearance, it's not explained at all) and tells Kagerou to tell the others about his whereabouts in Chevalier. He could have least kept Kagerou with him and sent a messenger instead. I guess this an excuse to get her to be a playable character at a earlier chapter. But he's basically without his best bodyguards and goes to Chevalier by himself. Huh?

This, this alone makes this a reckless, maybe even plain stupid plan. If it's about raising suspicions about him being a prince among the rebels, the writers could have still brought Saizou and Kagerou with him. They are highly-capable NINJA. Stealth is their specialty and protecting Ryouma is their duty. I bet they can pull off disguises, not raise suspicions AND protect Ryouma with no sweat. Saizou joining Kamui as early as he did is also like an excuse for him to be playable earlier. I don't think it would have detracted the story at all if he was with Ryouma. Orochi is already there to tell Kamui that Ryouma disappeared. Saizou being there is redundant. Also, Saizou has no appearance in the story after this chapter even when meeting Ryouma again. Takumi get's a little scene with his retainers when they're reunited. What about Ryouma's retainers? Nope. It's like all the story development goes to Takumi and Kamui while the other siblings are just there.

Now, all this would have been fine if someone pointed out Ryouma's recklessness. NO ONE does. The siblings are just so happy to be reunited, and I guess the player is supposed to see this as a good plan because all's well in the end? Well, I don't. It was still a crappy plan.

Also, when facing King Garon, Ryouma tries to negotiate with him. Uhm, the guy killed his father, was the mastermind of the sword explosion that killed Mikoto and other citizens, and even Nohr's citizens and royals are suffering under his reign, what makes him think negotiations are going to help? Instead, he gives Garon an opening to attack, and Ryouma is defeated by a fireball.

Seriously, if Ryouma wanted to negotiate, do it sooner! Like, before fighting a series of battles into Nohr to face Garon? Has he ever heard of messengers? I know he does since that's how he knew Sakura and Hinoka were being attacked by faceless.

Ryouma's other flaw is his favoritism toward Kamui. Now, this could be applied to other siblings, but I think it makes the least sense from Ryouma, especially in the Nohr route. Yes, he knew Kamui when he was young, but that was when he was young. He didn't grow up with Kamui and knows that Kamui was raised by an enemy nation. He takes his duties as first prince seriously, so why, why is he not the slightest bit wary about Kamui like Takumi was? Even if Ryouma was very subtle at it, then I would be satisfied about it, but no, complete trust just like that. Hinoka is just the overprotective sister and grew up as a warrior to get Kamui back, so I understood her trust of Kamui. Takumi is already wary of Kamui. Sakura makes sense too since she comes off as young, naive girl who's kind to everyone pretty much.

In Nohr, Kamui's betrayal even after Mikoto's sacrifice should have rang a ton of alarm bells. Instead, you see Ryouma trying to get Kamui back not once, but twice (Ch 6 and 12), and overall, he's still a kind pretty kind character to Kamui considering they're enemies in a war. Take Ch.17 for example and the forgiveness scene. I think the whole Ryouma and Takumi forgiving Kamui is BS. Kamui betrayed them even after Mikoto's sacrifice and helped invade Hoshido and slaughtered their citizens. In Nohr, Kamui doesn't deserve ANY of their forgiveness. Yeah, Kamui spared the sisters, but the brothers and a lot of Hoshidans are dead and things would have turned out better for them if Kamui didn't betray them in the first place, so yeah, the forgiveness part is BS. At least Marx and Elise grew up with Kamui and know that their father is wrong, so the forgiveness thing makes sense there.

Even when siding with Nohr, Marx shows some distrust toward Kamui and even accuses them of betraying Nohr when Kamui tries to convince the siblings that Garon is a slime monster. So, ironically Marx is more wary of Kamui, so why can't the writers have more Ryouma show some more lack of trust if they aren't afraid to do so with Marx?

If they focused a little less on Kamui and Aqua, I think we'd get more development on Marx and Ryouma, who I think are just as important to the game's story, but is treated as minor-ish characters to give more limelight to Kamui and Aqua. The older brothers show up in chapters often, but it's more to show the player that they're still there and doesn't contribute a whole lot to the story. Kamui and Aqua, IMO, are more suited for the more minor character roles like the other siblings rather than be the very main characters, but I'm not here to debate about that, I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks that the portrayal of Marx and Ryouma in the story is lacking/flawed.

Edit: Wow, didn't realize I wrote so much. Sorry for the long post.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Yuina

[nocturnal YL]

I'm under the impression that Marx is a classic case of having too the concept of loyalty instilled in his mind too much: "I do what is good for the nation. To do that, I must stay in character as the first prince of Nohr, no matter what." He was suspicious about Garon, but he didn't know how to react to it.

Serena did that. Ishtar did that. Wolf wants to be that. Considering that Max eventually joins the player, this should make him more of a Tauroneo. If anything, it's an existing archtype.

I do agree about Ryouma. I haven't read the Hoshio route story, but if he's indeed like how he's described here, that's strange. There were Hoshidans keeping watch on what Marx does in IK, yet he's not wary about Kamui when they were enemies? And yeah, without the context of knowing something's wrong with Garon, it's hard for anyone to forgive Kamui.

I still think Kamui and Aqua should be the main characters. While the brothers are effectively leading each side, Kamui and Aqua are the ones sandwiched between both sides, which is this game's theme itself.

[Thane]

I just wrote about this yesterday, but to me it feels like one of the main problems with Xander is that the narrative portrays him in two widely different ways. He's supposed to be a stoic but kindhearted Paladin who always puts the country's needs first, and then in other paths, primarily Conquest, he comes across as either spineless, blind or thoroughly stupid. It would've been one thing if Xander's thoughts and feelings about what was happening was shown more, but we hardly get to see anything; from supports we get some references to his past and his former love for his father, but we see nothing of the sort in the main story, just a man accepting everything Garon says through gritted teeth. It's all fine and dandy to say "oh well he's just blindly loyal and loves Garon" - well, yeah, but the game doesn't really show us that, nor does it ever give us a reason for it, but instead it comes across as awful writing since there's such a dissonance in how the character is portrayed.

Hell, in Birthright he asks "what is justice?" to Kamui as if that would somehow make this ludicrously black-and-white story a bit grayer, but the fact that Xander doesn't seem to think starting a war and Garon executing people left and right as mentioned by Elise is objectionable just makes his character come across as, once again, a complete idiot. Which is too bad, because he's got some nice supports.

As for Ryouma, I honestly don't know if I care enough to analyze him. He's just so bland. There's no room for character development or anything since, as you said, he's portrayed as perfect from the get-go. He never deviates from his role as a kind bushido prince and there are no surprises to be had with him at all. I also absolutely hate his design, but that's neither here nor there.

However, I will agree that Ryouma being so trusting of Kamui and then forgiving him in the plot dream towards the end is just atrocious writing. He's got zero reason for doing so, and it seems to even go against what little character he has. The narrative is so busy with making sure Kamui is never portrayed as being in the wrong that it negatively affects the supporting characters. Kamui is a fucking black hole, but I suppose they're no the topic of this discussion.

[Folt]

Well, on the Nohr Siblings & Garon thing:

Xander is probably the one who distinctly remembers how Garon was before he became the jerk

slime monster

you see in the main story, and out of the Nohr siblings, he's the one who's most invested in changing Garon back. Besides being the first prince of Nohr and expected to act in the nation's best interests, Xander has a personal stake in the war: He believes Garon will go back to who he was before if they conquer Hoshido, so he will assist Garon in his war even if he doesn't necessarily agree with how Garon's handling the war. At present, while he has doubts and would like to reform the current Nohr, Garon's rule isn't outright detrimental to Nohr (rebellions are rebellions no matter the reason, and the enmity between Nohr and the nation of Hoshido goes way back), which he takes as a sign that Garon can still be changed.

As such, Xander will only go directly against Garon and his wishes if he gets hard evidence that he won't get the Garon he knew back, whether it's actual visual proof (such as present!Garon's true nature) or something he considers to be an out-of-character moment for Garon (like when he says he wants to destroy both Hoshido and Nohr).

Camilla and Leo also remembers how Garon was in the past. They aren't as invested in changing the current Garon as Xander is, but they will follow Garon's orders (but make an attempt to subvert them without him knowing if they find the orders to be too much) to keep their lives. They also feel a kinship to Xander though as the oldest sibling and future king. That said, not being as invested in present!Garon and knowing who Garon used to be back then means they will consider the possibility of Garon being... not himself, if brought to their attention.

Elise explicitly doesn't remember past!Garon, only the current one. As such, while she fears him, she is the sibling most willing to directly go against Garon if she can get away with it and gets enough of a push.

[JupiterKnight]

Well while Takumi is justified to not trust Kamui to a certain degree he's also shown to be paranoid in general as an attempt to overcompensate for his own personal issues. Even making comments about how Aqua can't be trusted before Mkoto's death. Yet he had been raised with her most of his life. Of course he fell into the Chasm and got possessed by Hydra after the choice, so he was being more ruthless than usual by having his emotions preyed upon.

Now for Ryoma personally it just seems weird how Ryoma blackmails Kamui with the choice of returning to Hoshido by force or returning willingly in exchange for medicine to Elises illness in chapter 12 of Nohr. You would believe that it's dishonorable for a Samurai to do that, but the fact that it's never brought up again irks me when any Nohr character doing that on Hoshido would automatically be seen as wrong. It comes across as it being okay whenever Hoshido does it.

The story itself goes out of its way to make Nohr as contrived as possible in order to portray Hoshido as flawless perfect saints, even when there are supports that are suppose to suggest it isn't as perfect as it appears but only further reinforce how flawless it is. The bias of Hoshido honestly seems to be what screws the game up so much because Fantasy Japan can only be paradise.

@Thane: Starting a war is fine if there's a good enough reason, which should work considering Nohr is literally Mordor and the nation has only been able to sustain itself in the past by conquering other territories, but instead the game goes with a slime monster that wants to destroy both countries.

[The DanMan]

...Yes, the "writing" is pure shit. I can't wait to see other peoples' reactions to the matter when it comes Westward.

The Hoshido bias makes me want to side with Nohr all the more.

Edited August 16, 2015 by The DanMan

[Alazen]

Even before Fates' JP release it's apparent Hoshido bias was pointed out on other boards such as GameFAQs. It was hoped that Hoshido was hiding a dark secret or had a significant social issue such as indoctrinated bigotry so that the game wouldn't end up being "Dastardly Westerners (or at least Europeans) who live in a Mordor wannabe VS Peaceful Japanese in a sunny land who did nothing wrong".

Edited August 16, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

Did anybody really expect that Fates would have a full narrative? AFAIK, none of the FE games have had that and instead relies on the supports on the side, as a way of rewarding the player for actually using the character. Sure, both Marx and Ryouma should have gotten more spotlight, considering their role in the story, but apparently, people still like them based on their supports. Considering how the game is mostly from Kamui's viewpoint, not everything is revealed in the story proper.

I think the story is shit too and could have been spiced way more, but there are still some redeeming qualities.

[RadiantDragon]

Well while Takumi is justified to not trust Kamui to a certain degree he's also shown to be paranoid in general as an attempt to overcompensate for his own personal issues. Even making comments about how Aqua can't be trusted before Mkoto's death. Yet he had been raised with her most of his life. Of course he fell into the Chasm and got possessed by Hydra after the choice, so he was being more ruthless than usual by having his emotions preyed upon.

Now for Ryoma personally it just seems weird how Ryoma blackmails Kamui with the choice of returning to Hoshido by force or returning willingly in exchange for medicine to Elises illness in chapter 12 of Nohr. You would believe that it's dishonorable for a Samurai to do that, but the fact that it's never brought up again irks me when any Nohr character doing that on Hoshido would automatically be seen as wrong. It comes across as it being okay whenever Hoshido does it.

The story itself goes out of its way to make Nohr as contrived as possible in order to portray Hoshido as flawless perfect saints, even when there are supports that are suppose to suggest it isn't as perfect as it appears but only further reinforce how flawless it is. The bias of Hoshido honestly seems to be what screws the game up so much because Fantasy Japan can only be paradise.

@Thane: Starting a war is fine if there's a good enough reason, which should work considering Nohr is literally Mordor and the nation has only been able to sustain itself in the past by conquering other territories, but instead the game goes with a slime monster that wants to destroy both countries.

...Yes, the "writing" is pure shit. I can't wait to see other peoples' reactions to the matter when it comes Westward.

The Hoshido bias makes me want to side with Nohr all the more.

You guys are acting like Japan is the only country who exhibits bias through media and gaming. I am not saying Fates story is justified but do you guys realize how many US propaganda bias Hollywood shows? Yet nobody complains when the west are showing "bias" in their media. Anyway that is off topic.

About Marx, I have already stated my dislike of him in another thread. He comes off as a gutless, blind fool who doesn't serve much of a purpose in the story because he is too much of a daddy boy. Disappointing, because I had high expectations of him since he gave the impression of an intelligent soldier who would actually question Garons way in the beginning.

Ryoma, I can't comment much about for now, maybe later.

Edited August 16, 2015 by RadiantDragon

[Gomez_Addams]

I don't have much problem with Xander, but then I've always been a fan of the Camus archetype. If you think about it, there's very little difference between Xander and Selena from Sacred Stones.

[Medeus]

You guys are acting like Japan is the only country who exhibits bias through media and gaming. I am not saying Fates story is justified but do you guys realize how many US propaganda bias Hollywood shows? Yet nobody complains when the west are showing "bias" in their media. Anyway that is off topic.

The thing is we're not arguing whether other countries does it, we're arguing what the effect of the bias has on Fates in particular. The thing is, regardless of who's making the game, there's an intense bias towards Hoshido the whole time in the game and it negatively affects the story as it's portrayed as ridiculously perfect while Nohr is horribly flawed. This makes for an uneven experience and storytelling as neither region are properly developed and fleshed out, it's almost completely black and white.

As for Marx, I do agree with what's been said. Marx is mostly portrayed as a man who would do anything if he felt it benefitted his country, yet he blindly follows whatever Garon says even when it completely goes against that logic. You could make the argument that he is trying to hold onto his old image of his father, but that leads into numerous problems such as the fact that it's never properly developed. We never meet or really hear about who Garon was before his fall aside from a couple supports, and the game never delves too far into Marx's mindset in the story. Now, Serena was brought up earlier, and there are parallels between them, but I feel that how she was done was better then how Marx was done. In the case of Serena, she does clearly explain her reasons for why she still follows the emperor, so we get a look into her psyche and why she's remaining loyal to her even though she has her doubts. Additionally, unlike Garon, we get a better look into how the emperor really was through dialogue from other characters like the lord and Lyon, who by doing so paint us a picture of the man he was before his fall.

Serena following the emperor was done better because we can get a stronger impression for why she's still staying by him. Marx, despite having even more time then her to get fleshed out in that area, doesn't get the same luxury. Garon before his fall remains a complete enigma aside from stray tidbits, and Marx's feelings on the matter aren't given enough attention for us to get a better impression of his loyalty. If the story focused on him more as a character within the story rather then Kamui, I feel that he would've been a stronger character.

[Thunder Sage]

I have a theory about Marx's loyalty towards Garon.

In the released game Garon is simply a monster, his entire actions are obviously cruel and the definition of stupid evil. No sane man would follow him out of loyalty.

However before the game was released, I remember reading about how Nohr was suffering from poor harvests (Not really a plot point in game as far as I can tell), and how Nohr had internal issues. This could suggest that Garon's original character may have been radically different, more akin to a pragmatist waging war on Hoshido to avoid famine and keep the country unified. Marx's loyalty towards Garon would make much more sense from that perspective as he knows his father does what he believes is best for Nohr, even if he does not completely agree with his choices, Marx's personality and the way the plot treats him hasn't changed from the original script, but the changes to Garon's character have, and as a result make him look spineless and foolish, instead of noble and well intentioned as probably intended.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Thunder Sage

[Nyanko]

Marx had so much potential to be an interesting character. I don't know what happened... It's almost like they wanted him to look really bad.

It would have been so much better to watch him struggle with his loyalty to Garon and his responsibility to his siblings and the people of Nohr. He'd have so much inner conflict for the game to explore and it would've been great to see him work through it, face his father, and take the throne. Maybe if Aqua hadn't been in the game, we could've had more focus on just Kamui and his/her siblings. That's what I would've preferred.

I'm just amazed by Nohr's story. I never let myself expect anything other than a decent story from Nohr, I didn't want to get my hopes up, but I never thought it would turn out bad. That they could ruin such an amazing premise just boggles my mind.

[Taka-kun]

Marx had so much potential to be an interesting character. I don't know what happened... It's almost like they wanted him to look really bad.

It would have been so much better to watch him struggle with his loyalty to Garon and his responsibility to his siblings and the people of Nohr. He'd have so much inner conflict for the game to explore and it would've been great to see him work through it, face his father, and take the throne. Maybe if Aqua hadn't been in the game, we could've had more focus on just Kamui and his/her siblings. That's what I would've preferred.

I'm just amazed by Nohr's story. I never let myself expect anything other than a decent story from Nohr, I didn't want to get my hopes up, but I never thought it would turn out bad. That they could ruin such an amazing premise just boggles my mind.

My thoughts exactly, as many others I suspect. The premise was genuinely good, like really good. Yet this is how it ended up.

[Thane]

My thoughts exactly, as many others I suspect. The premise was genuinely good, like really good. Yet this is how it ended up.

I still haven't gotten over it, it's just mind-boggling how they allegedly spent so much time on the story and THIS is what they came up with. Wasn't there anyone responsible for the story over there to check the overall quality?

I'm sorry, I know this isn't very constructive or anything but...I'm still absolutely baffled.

[andodel]

I feel like just a little bit of context could have made Xanders character much better. Selena is a great comparison, since if I remember correctly, the emperor saved her life. That was perfect for her character, since it at least gives us a reason for her unwavering loyalty. Yet that was only mentioned in a few lines of text, during the actual story. Sure, there are supports that reference Garon being nice, but nothing in the actual story. Would a flashback have been so hard to do, in order to justify Xanders position. Especially considering how important he is to the story.

Even then, given the fact that he clearly has his doubts about his father, there is no reason for the revelation that something is wrong to come at the end of the game. Instead of Kamui being an idiot and just completely going with the Hoshido invasion, they should have Kamui attempt to convince his siblings that something is wrong with Garon. Perhaps as the invasion goes on he can get Elise, Camilla, and Leo on his side. Then perhaps Kamui can drop some hints or something to Xander that something is wrong. Scrap the "Takumi is possessed" bit, and instead have Takumi or another sibling die. Make that the final straw to then betray Garon, fight Xander, knock some sense into him, and fight Garon.

Edited August 17, 2015 by andodel

[NekoKnight]

I didn't care for Marx's character at all. It's one thing for him to remember a kinder Garon and be loyal to his country but Marx has seen first hand how merciless and cruel the current Garon is. Kamui tells Marx that Garon tried to get him killed and Marx doesn't believe it. Then when Garon tries to have Kamui executed because of some contrived accusations of treason AND makes it clear he wants Kamui to suffer, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MARX, he still doesn't think that means his daddy has gone off the deep end.

Even though the game does so much in the way of Kamui-worship, when Kamui points out straightforward examples of how Garon is bad news, Marx refuses to acknowledge it. I didn't feel bad when Marx died. He died the stubborn fool that he was.

[BurningCandy]

I still haven't gotten over it, it's just mind-boggling how they allegedly spent so much time on the story and THIS is what they came up with. Wasn't there anyone responsible for the story over there to check the overall quality?

I'm sorry, I know this isn't very constructive or anything but...I'm still absolutely baffled.

After the writer (Kibayashi? I forgot) wrote the game's script, it's likely it was changed a bit to 'fit the game' or whatever. Almost all stories for types of media which aren't novels are meddled with to 'make it more appealing' or whatever. IMO they just made this game's story terrible.

Apparently Kibayashi wrote 500 pages for each route, and I'd really like to see his original idea.

[Taka-kun]

After the writer (Kibayashi? I forgot) wrote the game's script, it's likely it was changed a bit to 'fit the game' or whatever. Almost all stories for types of media which aren't novels are meddled with to 'make it more appealing' or whatever. IMO they just made this game's story terrible.

Apparently Kibayashi wrote 500 pages for each route, and I'd really like to see his original idea.

IS will probably not release it. The draft is their property now, as Kibayashi turned it to them and I would hazard a guess that IS probably knows about the fan reaction. So releasing the original draft will only fan the flames. If anything, they might be able to recycle the ideas to the next FE.

[Thane]

IS will probably not release it. The draft is their property now, as Kibayashi turned it to them and I would hazard a guess that IS probably knows about the fan reaction. So releasing the original draft will only fan the flames. If anything, they might be able to recycle the ideas to the next FE.

We may get some tidbits later on once the next installment has been announced. Though I'm not sure they're ever going to go so far as to admit they the story failed like they did with Awakening considering how much they hyped the story this time around. Besides, we don't even know how how the Japanese fan base has reacted to the plot, nor what the western audience will think about it, for that matter.

But let me tell you, I'd love to get my hand on those drafts.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Thane

[Water Mage]

Now for Ryoma personally it just seems weird how Ryoma blackmails Kamui with the choice of returning to Hoshido by force or returning willingly in exchange for medicine to Elises illness in chapter 12 of Nohr. You would believe that it's dishonorable for a Samurai to do that, but the fact that it's never brought up again irks me when any Nohr character doing that on Hoshido would automatically be seen as wrong. It comes across as it being okay whenever Hoshido does it.

That was proven to be false a long time ago.

[Taka-kun]

Besides, we don't even know how how the Japanese fan base has reacted to the plot, nor what the western audience will think about it, for that matter.

I think scattered in some topics here and there in SE, some has claimed that, at least according to 2chan, the Japanese thought it was scheisse as well. I would really like to see anyone defending the story, like what is good about it in its current form.

[Thane]

I think scattered in some topics here and there in SE, some has claimed that, at least according to 2chan, the Japanese thought it was scheisse as well. I would really like to see anyone defending the story, like what is good about it in its current form.

Oh, the general consensus on this forum is definitely that the story sucked. However, this website tends to be very critical when compared to a lot of other sites, so I don't dare to make an informed opinion of people's opinion just yet. I am glad to hear the Japanese fanbase didn't like the story though, since their criticism is far more likely to be taken into consideration when they're writing the plot for the next game. Could you give me any details on what has been said?

[Taka-kun]

Oh, the general consensus on this forum is definitely that the story sucked. However, this website tends to be very critical when compared to a lot of other sites, so I don't dare to make an informed opinion of people's opinion just yet. I am glad to hear the Japanese fanbase didn't like the story though, since their criticism is far more likely to be taken into consideration when they're writing the plot for the next game. Could you give me any details on what has been said?

I am pulling this entirely out of my memory here, and it's from unconfirmed resources as well, so know that the credibility is low. Still, from what I recall:

- The story, especially Conquest, left many holes and unanswered questions.

- The handling of the siblings on opposite sides is bland, aside from Takumi.

- The role of Hydra was an asspull (what I thought the poster meant here was he showed out of the blue).

- The atmosphere of chapter 6, which was believed to be retained for the rest of the game, wasn't.

I think Kamui's character was mentioned as well but I think it's mixed with my own negative bias towards him/her. But basically, he/she is bland with no noteworthy characteristics (nothing about being worshipped).

[Thane]

I am pulling this entirely out of my memory here, and it's from unconfirmed resources as well, so know that the credibility is low. Still, from what I recall:

- The story, especially Conquest, left many holes and unanswered questions.

- The handling of the siblings on opposite sides is bland, aside from Takumi.

- The role of Hydra was an asspull (what I thought the poster meant here was he showed out of the blue).

- The atmosphere of chapter 6, which was believed to be retained for the rest of the game, wasn't.

I think Kamui's character was mentioned as well but I think it's mixed with my own negative bias towards him/her. But basically, he/she is bland with no noteworthy characteristics (nothing about being worshipped).

Interesting, especially the part I bolded. It does sum up the faults of the game nicely, doesn't it? Until I found out Intelligent System basically said we can throw money at a problem to make it go away, I genuinely loved the sixth chapter. Sure, it's a bit too early on and you've got very little reason to return to Nohr, but the portrayal of the siblings' emotions and disbelief is very, very well written and genuine - it's the only time in the game where it doesn't shy away from giving you the middle finger and actually feel bad for what you've done. There's no "well Kamui's right no matter what" here, until, of course, the third path, which retroactively ruined the chapter and the choice as a whole for me.

Thank you, like I said, I'm glad people over there are complaining as well, since it'll hopefully reach intelligent Systems.

And yeah, Hydra...somehow, I don't think that's what Mr. Kibayashi had in mind when he played Awakening and thought he could write a better story. At this point it's essentially "my dragon's cooler than yours!".