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FE4 (O-sawa Mitsuki) Manga Translation Continued (Chapter 70 up)


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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This persecution is what led to Manfroy and the other Lopto Sect members to want Loptous to return, because as it was said, Loptous was the only hope they had for salvation. Their desire for revenge is just another link in the chain of hatred. 

This is a case of show vs tell, where I feel that Kaga should have at least shown us what the Lopto Sect had gone through. If even a little.

While that's true, you have to understand the difference between being persecuted and getting revenge on those who specifically hurt you, and harming innocents who had nothing to do with your persecution. The Sect itself is targeting innocent people who weren't even born when they were being persecuted. For example, they're targeting Celice's group and innocent children of the next generation who had no time to give their thoughts and opinions. Manfloy's actions could have been excusable... up until he started persecuted innocent people himself. If a group of people gets persecuted despite being innocent, like Manfloy was as a child, then growing up and persecuting innocent people as revenge by no means justifies the Sect's cause. In fact, it completely nullifies any good intent they ever had because they didn't stop at getting revenge on only the people who pushed them away. If you remember, in the game, Holsety tells Celice to be careful with labeling people as good or evil for lesson's sake, but later also informs him there's no room for good people to exist in the Sect. They didn't start evil, but they became evil. No amount of "I was persecuted as a child" excuses murdering parents in front of innocent children and taking those children as slaves and having them murder their friends and/or siblings to become nobles of an empire. Also, the game has Hilda and all the things that went down in Miletos. The manga doesn't have Hilda, so we lose a lot of the cruel murders that the game had and a lot of the knowledge on how bad the Sect really is.

Basically the manga is showing what led to this, but in the game you can still tell what the motivations were. I agree the manga is better at showing how drastic it all really was, but I don't fault the game for not being super detailed about it since the manga has actual images to show us all different angles. They both come together imo to complete the concept and give us all angles.

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1 minute ago, Jugdral Defender said:

While that's true, you have to understand the difference between being persecuted and getting revenge on those who specifically hurt you, and harming innocents who had nothing to do with your persecution. The Sect itself is targeting innocent people who weren't even born when they were being persecuted. For example, they're targeting Celice's group and innocent children of the next generation who had no time to give their thoughts and opinions. Manfloy's actions could have been excusable... up until he started persecuted innocent people himself. If a group of people gets persecuted despite being innocent, like Manfloy was as a child, then growing up and persecuting innocent people as revenge by no means justifies the Sect's cause. In fact, it completely nullifies any good intent they ever had because they didn't stop at getting revenge on only the people who pushed them away. If you remember, in the game, Holsety tells Celice to be careful with labeling people as good or evil for lesson's sake, but later also informs him there's no room for good people to exist in the Sect. They didn't start evil, but they became evil. No amount of "I was persecuted as a child" excuses murdering parents in front of innocent children and taking those children as slaves and having them murder their friends and/or siblings to become nobles of an empire. Also, the game has Hilda and all the things that went down in Miletos. The manga doesn't have Hilda, so we lose a lot of the cruel murders that the game had and a lot of the knowledge on how bad the Sect really is.

Basically the manga is showing what led to this, but in the game you can still tell what the motivations were. I agree the manga is better at showing how drastic it all really was, but I don't fault the game for not being super detailed about it since the manga has actual images to show us all different angles. They both come together imo to complete the concept and give us all angles.

6

You're misunderstanding something. I'm not trying to say that the Lopto Sect should be condoned or seen that their action is justified, or even to fully sympathize with. The narrative was trying to go with how Seliph has to understand that after the first Loptous Empire fell, the people persecuted the Lopto Sect for over a century, forcing them underground, and going into witch hunts. And this, in turn, made the Lopto Sect want revenge. If Seliph merely defeats the bad guys but doesn't address the problem of the persecution the Lopto Sect, then history would repeat itself. 

The manga does a well enough job to show us, but that's what mangas should do. It should show us these things more. Whereas the game, it hadn't tried to do this. It could, but it didn't. That's what I feel was a big misstep for a narrative that they were going for since they had no problem showing Gen 1 how manipulative the Lopto Sect are, and then Gen 2 shows how vicious they are. Without getting to see this persecution in the game, just being told about it, it's really hard for the player to understand what Seliph is learning since we don't see the state of the Yied Shrine, or the child's handwriting on the wall.

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The manga does a well enough job to show us, but that's what mangas should do. It should show us these things more. Whereas the game, it hadn't tried to do this. It could, but it didn't. That's what I feel was a big misstep for a narrative that they were going for since they had no problem showing Gen 1 how manipulative the Lopto Sect are, and then Gen 2 shows how vicious they are. Without getting to see this persecution in the game, just being told about it, it's really hard for the player to understand what Seliph is learning since we don't see the state of the Yied Shrine, or the child's handwriting on the wall.

I agree, that's what it should do in place of the game if the game didn't or couldn't do it. I still believe the game had enough limitations that I'm willing to excuse not showing us all that and telling us instead, but that's what I mean that the two come together and make it whole. We get a lot of detail in the game about it, and the manga shows it. I also appreciate how we're shown how cruel the Lopt Sect is in different ways, because we knew from the game, but for example, the manga shows us Diadora's grandmother being tortured by Manfloy. Granted, she was a manga only character, but showing them torture someone at all is a big understanding of what they're capable of. I definitely know what you mean regarding your enjoyment of what the manga offers. I just think both of them had very good takes on the narrative but different ways of getting it across. Kind of like if you were reading a book; you'd get all the details but you wouldn't get to see it in action. I just personally think both of them did the narrative justice in their own ways, and you're also free to have your own thoughts about it. Those are just my own.

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1 hour ago, Jugdral Defender said:

I agree, that's what it should do in place of the game if the game didn't or couldn't do it. I still believe the game had enough limitations that I'm willing to excuse not showing us all that and telling us instead, but that's what I mean that the two come together and make it whole. We get a lot of detail in the game about it, and the manga shows it. I also appreciate how we're shown how cruel the Lopt Sect is in different ways, because we knew from the game, but for example, the manga shows us Diadora's grandmother being tortured by Manfloy. Granted, she was a manga only character, but showing them torture someone at all is a big understanding of what they're capable of. I definitely know what you mean regarding your enjoyment of what the manga offers. I just think both of them had very good takes on the narrative but different ways of getting it across. Kind of like if you were reading a book; you'd get all the details but you wouldn't get to see it in action. I just personally think both of them did the narrative justice in their own ways, and you're also free to have your own thoughts about it. Those are just my own.

I just hope that when we get a remake, they do show us something of the persecution. It would help give players an understanding. And just because you understand doesn't mean you can forgive them for what they've done. 

It's one of the reasons that I fell in love with Marth. He learned that there's more side to the war, but he says that his hatred never left, only it's become something different, something more. 

So having a scene where the burning on the stake happens, or even just an audio-only flashback, where Manfroy recalls the screams him and his family made as they were burned at the stake, as that would definitely paint a horrific image in the player's heads. 

And maybe make it so that Arvis never found out that Deirdre was his sister like the manga indicates. 

Cause, to be honest, I felt that was a bad move on Kaga's part to say that. Arvis learning of Deirdre's origins means that he had to have also been able to piece Manfroy's plan together and realize that he would likely give birth to Loptous' vessel. 

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On 9/12/2018 at 8:49 PM, pyoklii said:

Pardon me if this has been asked before, also for replying when the last reply was a month ago, but is there a link to the raw scans of this manga, if it exists?

You can post regardless of the date of the last post, so don't worry about that.

No, there is not a link to the raws anywhere to my knowledge. I own the books so the scans are coming directly from me/my books. I would recommend either purchasing the books or you can go to my Tumblr blog and send in an ask requesting whatever knowledge or previews you're looking for.

It's mostly a matter, for me, of not wanting my scans being stolen by posting them (such as no credit for the scans, etc. And scans take a lot of time. And it's pretty boring. And those books were expensive). I post the odd fully cleaned page or completed page while in the process of completing chapters, or I might post the odd raw with some commentary on my blog, but I don't upload in bulk. But if there's something you'd like to know before we get there, I have no problem discussing it and posting some things (I've done it here sometimes too). Basically, I paid a lot of money for those books and scanning entire books takes a lot of time when you add up every book, so I only upload the completed versions.

You can see whatever I've posted about the manga on my blog here, and again, feel free to send asks in for anything else or get some details here. Depending on what it is, I may have to put under spoiler tags if it's here, of course.

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:35 AM, omegaxis1 said:

This is a case of show vs tell, where I feel that Kaga should have at least shown us what the Lopto Sect had gone through. If even a little.

The location of where they live at: Yied. The Yied Desert was seen as a desert of death, with it said that many travelers die during their crossing of the desert. It's described as the worst place to live in Jugdral, and the secret ending uses this reputation to juxtapose its current state vs its future state. The fact that the Lopto Sect was exiled to the worst place to live is one big, but indirect way Kaga shows us their persecution. They were banned to a place that takes 30 turns to get to, their exile was long and hard. The desert in Ch.7 is often mentioned as one of the least favorite map designs in the series, so imagine living there.

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2 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

The location of where they live at: Yied. The Yied Desert was seen as a desert of death, with it said that many travelers die during their crossing of the desert. It's described as the worst place to live in Jugdral, and the secret ending uses this reputation to juxtapose its current state vs its future state. The fact that the Lopto Sect was exiled to the worst place to live is one big, but indirect way Kaga shows us their persecution. They were banned to a place that takes 30 turns to get to, their exile was long and hard. The desert in Ch.7 is often mentioned as one of the least favorite map designs in the series, so imagine living there.

Yeah, unfortunately, being told this is once again, show vs tell. I'm being told this is the worst place to live, I'm told that the ruins are horrible, and I'm told that there is a child's handwriting on the wall praying for Loptous. 

That's the entire problem. The game does nothing to SHOW us. All the Lopto Sect members are cruel and conniving, which is shown extensively, wanting to make everyone suffer and manipulate everyone to get what they want, and not once did the game actually try to make us understand that they are actually people. The game does nothing to make it understood that they have emotions other than vengeance and hatred in them. 

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So as far as progress goes, I've started to be able to situate pages for cleaning (who is cleaning what, etc.), and I'll be sending people their chapters to do so as I am able. Reminder my situation is not exactly currently the most stable so progress is very shaky. Once we start cleaning, I'll post bits and pieces of progress. Thankfully it looks like I can get access to the versions of the scans I needed to progress with the cleaning, as I do not have access to my or any scanner at this time so I can only have completed cleaned chapters if I do have the correct scans (as some pages needed to be rescanned). If I can get myself a mouse for my laptop I'll probably be able to clean at a much faster pace, so I'm looking into that.

I'll probably skip previews for the next chapter since we can release that one once we get it cleaned, and since the rest are waiting for a translator, I'll poke at those for previews.

56 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, unfortunately, being told this is once again, show vs tell. I'm being told this is the worst place to live, I'm told that the ruins are horrible, and I'm told that there is a child's handwriting on the wall praying for Loptous. 

That's the entire problem. The game does nothing to SHOW us. All the Lopto Sect members are cruel and conniving, which is shown extensively, wanting to make everyone suffer and manipulate everyone to get what they want, and not once did the game actually try to make us understand that they are actually people. The game does nothing to make it understood that they have emotions other than vengeance and hatred in them.

Well, I have to fully disagree here. Holsety has made it a repetitive point to remind Celice not everyone is bad. Right around this point during the game, he says it at Yied and then about Ishtor. The game makes it very understood that not everyone is bad, while expressing, through the same person, that the Lopt Sect in particular is evil.

You have to consider, again, that because of the type of game it is that it can't really do much to show. All FE games are like that in that they can't really use much besides dialogue and the map sprites. When you compare it to say Radiant Dawn, you see how the Begnion Empire is willing to execute people in a swamp, but all we see on the map is effectively the shove skill pushing people into a swamp, with the sprites fading off the map when their HP hits zero. The PoR situation with Ranulf at the port was probably the best showing of something it expressed in dialogue in any FE game, but remember that that same game told us how awful Gritnea Tower was and all we get to see is am empty room. Those games had much more room to do things that FE4 didn't have on the SNES, but overall, they all have a similar way of handling storytelling.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy the manga for the reasons you're expressing, and I agree with that, but you can't so simply discredit the game in the opposite manner because of the style of the game. I do fully agree this manga does amazing at expressing situations to us, as much as I think sometimes they push the peace and love topic a bit too much as compared to the game. The game gives me a bit of a darker vibe in comparison for gen 2. The impending defeat in gen 1 was done beyond fabulously though for this manga. I think the manga could have shown more of the "horrible" things that go on behind the scenes with gen 2.

Spoiler

Taking Out Hilda Was A Mistake. And Basically The Entire Miletos Arc. It got tossed in with the final chapter's arc so Big Rip.

 

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1 hour ago, Jugdral Defender said:

Well, I have to fully disagree here. Holsety has made it a repetitive point to remind Celice not everyone is bad. Right around this point during the game, he says it at Yied and then about Ishtor. The game makes it very understood that not everyone is bad, while expressing, through the same person, that the Lopt Sect in particular is evil.

You have to consider, again, that because of the type of game it is that it can't really do much to show. All FE games are like that in that they can't really use much besides dialogue and the map sprites. When you compare it to say Radiant Dawn, you see how the Begnion Empire is willing to execute people in a swamp, but all we see on the map is effectively the shove skill pushing people into a swamp, with the sprites fading off the map when their HP hits zero. The PoR situation with Ranulf at the port was probably the best showing of something it expressed in dialogue in any FE game, but remember that that same game told us how awful Gritnea Tower was and all we get to see is am empty room. Those games had much more room to do things that FE4 didn't have on the SNES, but overall, they all have a similar way of handling storytelling.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy the manga for the reasons you're expressing, and I agree with that, but you can't so simply discredit the game in the opposite manner because of the style of the game. I do fully agree this manga does amazing at expressing situations to us, as much as I think sometimes they push the peace and love topic a bit too much as compared to the game. The game gives me a bit of a darker vibe in comparison for gen 2. The impending defeat in gen 1 was done beyond fabulously though for this manga. I think the manga could have shown more of the "horrible" things that go on behind the scenes with gen 2.

9

The problem with that is the fact that the Lopto Sect itself is pure evil. We don't get to actually see the fact that Lewyn/Forseti is explaining that the Lopto Sect were once normal people too, that they weren't always evil. But that's what I've been saying is the entire problem. It is easy to make some form of sympathy be done, and even for the SNES, I have doubts that Kaga was actually incapable of showing us something. The Lopto Sect itself has done nothing to actually express any shred of humanity. They want revenge for the persecution? Oh, so we have no issues showing us how cases of children running for their lives and about to be killed to show how bad the child hunts are, but you can't have placed some Lopto Sect guys or even innocent people that are accused of Lopto Sect being done the same in Gen 1 to show that the persecution of the Lopto Sect is that bad? 

The game doesn't hold back in showing us how vile and evil the Lopto Sect are. The two lines to cast sympathy towards them to give the narrative sense that Seliph has to understand that he has to break this cycle of hatred doesn't work when the player really doesn't see how bad the persecution was at all. We don't truly see the motivations behind them, and instead, see that the Lopto Sect was the root of all evil. We don't see that the Lopto Sect truly suffered. Only told that they had. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

The problem with that is the fact that the Lopto Sect itself is pure evil. We don't get to actually see the fact that Lewyn/Forseti is explaining that the Lopto Sect were once normal people too, that they weren't always evil. But that's what I've been saying is the entire problem. It is easy to make some form of sympathy be done, and even for the SNES, I have doubts that Kaga was actually incapable of showing us something. The Lopto Sect itself has done nothing to actually express any shred of humanity. They want revenge for the persecution? Oh, so we have no issues showing us how cases of children running for their lives and about to be killed to show how bad the child hunts are, but you can't have placed some Lopto Sect guys or even innocent people that are accused of Lopto Sect being done the same in Gen 1 to show that the persecution of the Lopto Sect is that bad? 

The game doesn't hold back in showing us how vile and evil the Lopto Sect are. The two lines to cast sympathy towards them to give the narrative sense that Seliph has to understand that he has to break this cycle of hatred doesn't work when the player really doesn't see how bad the persecution was at all. We don't truly see the motivations behind them, and instead, see that the Lopto Sect was the root of all evil. We don't see that the Lopto Sect truly suffered. Only told that they had. 

The game went over that though. Holsety said there's no room for people in the Sect to exist, while also trying to level Celice's immediate assumptions on good and evil. Since the manga has the ability to use art on full pages, it does have more benefits in the showing department, but less with explaining and detail because characters typically state facts so the readers know them, but when you consider someone saying it out loud, you think how odd it might sound. I've noticed it while typesetting actually, that it just feels really weird to be putting some of it in. Like, it's what they say, but it's odd for someone to actually just say the thing in general, but it needs to be done for the readers to know. Not to say that doesn't happen in the game too, but with the manga it's more odd when things like that are spoken particularly because the manga does have showing benefits that go beyond the game's. There's a lot more opportunity, basically.

Sympathy probably wasn't done in the game because Kaga just didn't want it there. For example, they're a Sect for a reason. The Sect exists for a horrible cause, so anyone involved with it willingly doesn't have good intentions - including Manfloy. Sometimes, the sympathy doesn't even matter once a line's been that far crossed - again, Manfloy. The sympathy doesn't mean much anymore, and the initial reasons don't mean much anymore, when someone like Manfloy has gone so far beyond just plain revenge. It's more that the Sect alone didn't need much "shown", but we got the idea - the difference - between them and the people born into their circumstance who aren't part of the Sect just from text.

In fairness to gen 1, the Sect itself and the persecutions aren't the main focus of the story the way it is with gen 2. But also, because of that, the manga didn't go too into depth with it either. We just needed to know it was happening back then basically, because it was a basis for gen 2's story. They needed to lay that out on the table, but it wasn't something we needed to see much or any of. Maybe it would've been nice to see how awful they were to have a full, proper understanding, but even the manga kind of just glossed over the parts it did show us. They were pretty brief, is what I mostly mean.

I think that's more of a flashback issue. We don't see the suffering because it happened in the past, just as we don't see the Crusaders' war or the dragons helping them in human form (and are only told about it). At the present time, the Sect is that evil. The manga makes more of a point of the whole cycle topic tbh, so that's why it gives us different depth to it. But personally, I don't think in the game that we needed to see a lot of those things. I find the game is able to get the point across very thoroughly through text alone. Plus, it's not just the Sect. Anyone born in that line is treated the same way, and those are the innocent ones that we need to see more so than the Sect's members. We can be shown how bad they suffered in the past and all that in the manga, but not only is it extremely difficult to get that point across in the game outside of text, but it's more about seeing the innocents when it comes to the cycle than how people treat the Sect (i.e. the people actually trying to kill the "good guys"). The innocents have suffered the same way as the Sect - the latter just chose to take their revenge way too far.

I get what you mean, I just personally don't think it's necessary to show the Sect's suffering in the game when it's a flashback/past timeline thing (and I believe the game handled it as best it could, etc.). But tbh, it's why I like the manga and game both, together. I often like to think of some parts of the manga being canon to the game's events and vice versa, because between the two of them it's a full, developed and amazing storyline. Imagine what FE4 could be with absolutely no restraint or limitations of any sort. What it would be like if it was a TV show/movie/etc., or if it was a novel. If it had all those things, and it all rounded off with only some minor differences between adaptions, but each one gave us more depth in different areas in different ways. FE4 could really have that full potential imo, and just the story and concepts alone make it something that I think could be really popular the way mainstream things are if it did have all that.

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9 minutes ago, Jugdral Defender said:

The game went over that though. Holsety said there's no room for people in the Sect to exist, while also trying to level Celice's immediate assumptions on good and evil. Since the manga has the ability to use art on full pages, it does have more benefits in the showing department, but less with explaining and detail because characters typically state facts so the readers know them, but when you consider someone saying it out loud, you think how odd it might sound. I've noticed it while typesetting actually, that it just feels really weird to be putting some of it in. Like, it's what they say, but it's odd for someone to actually just say the thing in general, but it needs to be done for the readers to know. Not to say that doesn't happen in the game too, but with the manga it's more odd when things like that are spoken particularly because the manga does have showing benefits that go beyond the game's. There's a lot more opportunity, basically.

Sympathy probably wasn't done in the game because Kaga just didn't want it there. For example, they're a Sect for a reason. The Sect exists for a horrible cause, so anyone involved with it willingly doesn't have good intentions - including Manfloy. Sometimes, the sympathy doesn't even matter once a line's been that far crossed - again, Manfloy. The sympathy doesn't mean much anymore, and the initial reasons don't mean much anymore, when someone like Manfloy has gone so far beyond just plain revenge. It's more that the Sect alone didn't need much "shown", but we got the idea - the difference - between them and the people born into their circumstance who aren't part of the Sect just from text.

In fairness to gen 1, the Sect itself and the persecutions aren't the main focus of the story the way it is with gen 2. But also, because of that, the manga didn't go too into depth with it either. We just needed to know it was happening back then basically, because it was a basis for gen 2's story. They needed to lay that out on the table, but it wasn't something we needed to see much or any of. Maybe it would've been nice to see how awful they were to have a full, proper understanding, but even the manga kind of just glossed over the parts it did show us. They were pretty brief, is what I mostly mean.

I think that's more of a flashback issue. We don't see the suffering because it happened in the past, just as we don't see the Crusaders' war or the dragons helping them in human form (and are only told about it). At the present time, the Sect is that evil. The manga makes more of a point of the whole cycle topic tbh, so that's why it gives us different depth to it. But personally, I don't think in the game that we needed to see a lot of those things. I find the game is able to get the point across very thoroughly through text alone. Plus, it's not just the Sect. Anyone born in that line is treated the same way, and those are the innocent ones that we need to see more so than the Sect's members. We can be shown how bad they suffered in the past and all that in the manga, but not only is it extremely difficult to get that point across in the game outside of text, but it's more about seeing the innocents when it comes to the cycle than how people treat the Sect (i.e. the people actually trying to kill the "good guys"). The innocents have suffered the same way as the Sect - the latter just chose to take their revenge way too far.

I get what you mean, I just personally don't think it's necessary to show the Sect's suffering in the game when it's a flashback/past timeline thing (and I believe the game handled it as best it could, etc.). But tbh, it's why I like the manga and game both, together. I often like to think of some parts of the manga being canon to the game's events and vice versa, because between the two of them it's a full, developed and amazing storyline. Imagine what FE4 could be with absolutely no restraint or limitations of any sort. What it would be like if it was a TV show/movie/etc., or if it was a novel. If it had all those things, and it all rounded off with only some minor differences between adaptions, but each one gave us more depth in different areas in different ways. FE4 could really have that full potential imo, and just the story and concepts alone make it something that I think could be really popular the way mainstream things are if it did have all that.

10

The game and manga aren't the same things sadly, hence why my criticism is stuck with the game itself mostly, and why I enjoy what the manga did convey the game sadly didn't. We didn't need to have a flashback. But rather, the thing that is lacking is a show that there is a depth beyond just evil and hatred. Manfroy or any Lopto Sect, they are never talking about anything that depicts a "softer" tone from them. In dialogue, there are ways of conveying emotions through methods. Manfroy exhibited nothing but vile hatred. He doesn't show this softer tone that would have actually expressed that he suffered from the persecution. The dialogue itself for the Lopto Sect can be used as a way of showing, but when the heroes do it, it isn't as effective. 

You seem to be missing something that I'm trying to explain. 

It doesn't matter if sympathy wasn't intended, it's the narrative problem. Seliph is being told that the Lopto Sect were once normal people, no different from Seliph or others. But the persecution they faced ultimately made them be in the position they are right now. That humanity itself caused this situation they are in now. Seliph in the story is seeing that the Lopto Sect has had it rough. But the player DOESN'T see it. We are told about it. 

We're supposed to UNDERSTAND what Seliph is doing, understand the journey he's going through. Yes, the Lopto Sect has to be stopped, but Seliph has to go beyond the enemy in front of him and understand that he needs to strike the enemy that is truly the root: persecution itself. But the problem is that narratively, the player wouldn't understand what Seliph is seeing or understanding, because the player didn't.

Even if you argue that the SNES couldn't have held any scenes or flashbacks, or even NPC units that are forced to be killed by enemies, would it be impossible to actually depict the "softer" tone for the characters? Have Manfroy say things that use ellipses points to show that he's remembering his past, talking about how he's suffered. In a way, it's a way of showing the shard of humanity that he once had in him that was cut off that he now wants nothing but revenge. 

The manga is able to show this softer tone because they can show expressions where Manfroy cried as he fought, showed how he recalls how painful his past was, and the flashbacks are drawn only further evidenced by it. But if you focus on the game itself, it doesn't convey a show about the cruelties the Lopto Sect suffered, neither from the members or the scenes.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The game and manga aren't the same things sadly, hence why my criticism is stuck with the game itself mostly, and why I enjoy what the manga did convey the game sadly didn't. We didn't need to have a flashback. But rather, the thing that is lacking is a show that there is a depth beyond just evil and hatred. Manfroy or any Lopto Sect, they are never talking about anything that depicts a "softer" tone from them. In dialogue, there are ways of conveying emotions through methods. Manfroy exhibited nothing but vile hatred. He doesn't show this softer tone that would have actually expressed that he suffered from the persecution. The dialogue itself for the Lopto Sect can be used as a way of showing, but when the heroes do it, it isn't as effective. 

You seem to be missing something that I'm trying to explain. 

It doesn't matter if sympathy wasn't intended, it's the narrative problem. Seliph is being told that the Lopto Sect were once normal people, no different from Seliph or others. But the persecution they faced ultimately made them be in the position they are right now. That humanity itself caused this situation they are in now. Seliph in the story is seeing that the Lopto Sect has had it rough. But the player DOESN'T see it. We are told about it. 

We're supposed to UNDERSTAND what Seliph is doing, understand the journey he's going through. Yes, the Lopto Sect has to be stopped, but Seliph has to go beyond the enemy in front of him and understand that he needs to strike the enemy that is truly the root: persecution itself. But the problem is that narratively, the player wouldn't understand what Seliph is seeing or understanding, because the player didn't.

Even if you argue that the SNES couldn't have held any scenes or flashbacks, or even NPC units that are forced to be killed by enemies, would it be impossible to actually depict the "softer" tone for the characters? Have Manfroy say things that use ellipses points to show that he's remembering his past, talking about how he's suffered. In a way, it's a way of showing the shard of humanity that he once had in him that was cut off that he now wants nothing but revenge.

Tbh I don't really mind the hate/anger and lack of softness. It's a very real thing in life. Some people don't have softness but rather hatred alone for things that have hurt them, etc. It's another way of showing it, and maybe other Sect members could have, but I also believe with the path they've all taken, that softness is pretty suited for the ones who suffered but didn't join them. Example, that little boy in the manga. For me, that was a very powerful scene and showed a great scale of difference in the Sect members and the people who are being oppressed for simply being born.

I just have a differing perspective. I think the narrative did handle it fine in the game. It's just not something I mind. I don't think it would be a bad thing to use ellipses or something, though I'd have to check the original JP game script to see if it's actually there at any point (because for example, the translation continued after j2e stopped translated some parts with ellipses without ellipses - heavily so for Ishtar's interactions with Yurius, and she seems far less terrified of him than the actual JP text would indicate). Overall I think it's also a good thing in stories to have the villains who have no remorse and seem hellbent on causing suffering, because the entire situation with the child hunts and the treatment of occupied nations fits in well with that kind of dark concept. Naturally that can go too far and be played out wrong, though I feel FE4 handled that fine. Celice also can't see the past, so he can't see the suffering of the Sect. Now, he only sees what they've become, but he understands why they became that way by seeing what happens to innocent people of that bloodline (so he still understands it, but he doesn't see the Sect's emotions about it either, so in a sense we're still seeing it the way he is). I know what you're saying about wanting to see more emotion and all that. But again, ellipses and all that is still a text only situation, so the narrative has to be unfortunately confined to text. I do think what you're saying perhaps from the way you're saying it is confusing me, but my feelings about it are just as I've described. You don't like the narrative management as much in the game, and I prefer it in the game while appreciating both (and a lot of it is because I feel manga Celice is a lot more unrealistic responsively to the whole thing against game Celice).

Of course, it's not going to be perfectly written and I accept it's not. I just really don't mind the aspects that you have these opinions about. They're good enough for me that the manga feels like an extension of it. I respect your opinions. I just don't feel the same way is all.

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20 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, unfortunately, being told this is once again, show vs tell. I'm being told this is the worst place to live, I'm told that the ruins are horrible, and I'm told that there is a child's handwriting on the wall praying for Loptous. 

That's the entire problem. The game does nothing to SHOW us. All the Lopto Sect members are cruel and conniving, which is shown extensively, wanting to make everyone suffer and manipulate everyone to get what they want, and not once did the game actually try to make us understand that they are actually people. The game does nothing to make it understood that they have emotions other than vengeance and hatred in them. 

The problem with SHOWing us was probably the hardware at the time. A remake could probably show us, but that game as a whole was limited on what it could do. Granted, maybe a scene could've been throw in where a Yied citizen laments about how bad they feel for the travelers passing through, but then Ch.7 would probably have too many scenes going on.

But I do agree with you- we really don't get to see the average Yied citizen; only the extremists. 

This is probably something a remake could fix though.

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8 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

The problem with SHOWing us was probably the hardware at the time. A remake could probably show us, but that game as a whole was limited on what it could do. Granted, maybe a scene could've been throw in where a Yied citizen laments about how bad they feel for the travelers passing through, but then Ch.7 would probably have too many scenes going on.

But I do agree with you- we really don't get to see the average Yied citizen; only the extremists. 

This is probably something a remake could fix though.

I mentioned that before. Even if you argue about the limitations of the SNES tech, if Kaga really wanted to show that the Lopto Sect had suffered, then all it would take is for a Lopto Sect member, not even Manfroy, to show in their very dialogue the sign that they had suffered. There are methods of writing where they can make the tone be understandable on how much they suffered. Particularly the use of the ellipses points. The very way someone writes the dialogue can actually be in its own way a show. They don't have to explain the suffering, just mention that they suffered. In other words, show that the person has a softer side or tone to them that allows them to show that they suffered.

Manfroy could be the pure ball of evil and hatred, but does literally every Lopto Sect have to be as bad as him?  That's what the game seems to show anyways.

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:07 AM, omegaxis1 said:

I mentioned that before. Even if you argue about the limitations of the SNES tech, if Kaga really wanted to show that the Lopto Sect had suffered, then all it would take is for a Lopto Sect member, not even Manfroy, to show in their very dialogue the sign that they had suffered. There are methods of writing where they can make the tone be understandable on how much they suffered. Particularly the use of the ellipses points. The very way someone writes the dialogue can actually be in its own way a show. They don't have to explain the suffering, just mention that they suffered. In other words, show that the person has a softer side or tone to them that allows them to show that they suffered.

Manfroy could be the pure ball of evil and hatred, but does literally every Lopto Sect have to be as bad as him?  That's what the game seems to show anyways.

Tbh, that's what could have been done tbh. I could see it happening in Ch.7, or maybe some villager could mention it during Gen 1 somehow.

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On 9/22/2018 at 3:49 AM, Dandy Druid said:

The problem with SHOWing us was probably the hardware at the time. A remake could probably show us, but that game as a whole was limited on what it could do. Granted, maybe a scene could've been throw in where a Yied citizen laments about how bad they feel for the travelers passing through, but then Ch.7 would probably have too many scenes going on.

See, if I recall correctly, a lot was left out of the game period due to limitations - including all of a supposed part three. There was indeed very little that could be done outside of dialogue, and I think Kaga's intention was to make the Sect look evil - because they effectively are. They've suffered, sure, and I will say not everything is done perfectly, but that's why I don't really mind. If the game was released later on (and Kaga was still around for it), say around when PoR happened, they probably would've done more for the story regarding things like that. Though, admittedly, I'm not quite interested in the whole "trying to make sympathetic villains" thing when they've been expressed to be bad people, because tbh I feel like that's something Radiant Dawn did that actually basically ruined the characters for me. Example, Alvis wasn't described as being evil from the get go and displayed much the opposite of being evil. The Sect wasn't like that. Being an antagonist isn't directly the same as being the story's villain. It's possible the members of the Sect lost their humanity along the way, which seems to be the case. I understand if Oosawa has a different take on it than Kaga, and I'm okay with that. Tbh, too, I've noticed myself and a few others seem to believe Manfloy crying was just a distraction toward Levin to lower his guard.

But either way, to each his or her own. Personally, I think sometimes a story needs the villainous types mixed in with just antagonists.

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8 minutes ago, Jugdral Defender said:

See, if I recall correctly, a lot was left out of the game period due to limitations - including all of a supposed part three. There was indeed very little that could be done outside of dialogue, and I think Kaga's intention was to make the Sect look evil - because they effectively are. They've suffered, sure, and I will say not everything is done perfectly, but that's why I don't really mind. If the game was released later on (and Kaga was still around for it), say around when PoR happened, they probably would've done more for the story regarding things like that. Though, admittedly, I'm not quite interested in the whole "trying to make sympathetic villains" thing when they've been expressed to be bad people, because tbh I feel like that's something Radiant Dawn did that actually basically ruined the characters for me. Example, Alvis wasn't described as being evil from the get go and displayed much the opposite of being evil. The Sect wasn't like that. Being an antagonist isn't directly the same as being the story's villain. It's possible the members of the Sect lost their humanity along the way, which seems to be the case. I understand if Oosawa has a different take on it than Kaga, and I'm okay with that. Tbh, too, I've noticed myself and a few others seem to believe Manfloy crying was just a distraction toward Levin to lower his guard.

But either way, to each his or her own. Personally, I think sometimes a story needs the villainous types mixed in with just antagonists.

I've played TearRing Saga, and Kaga clearly is capable of making sympathetic villains. They can do vile and cruel things, he left them with very sympathetic moments.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

I've played TearRing Saga, and Kaga clearly is capable of making sympathetic villains. They can do vile and cruel things, he left them with very sympathetic moments.

Which gives me more reason to think he did it on purpose with FE4. It was also possibly a means to differentiate them and Alvis. Oosawa was free to take creative liberties, and it's not like I'm not interested in this take/version. I like seeing people's takes on the story and where they go with it from what they've been given from the game.

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1 hour ago, Jugdral Defender said:

Which gives me more reason to think he did it on purpose with FE4. It was also possibly a means to differentiate them and Alvis. Oosawa was free to take creative liberties, and it's not like I'm not interested in this take/version. I like seeing people's takes on the story and where they go with it from what they've been given from the game.

I take it more as a means that he realized that he what he had failed to convey in the narrative of FE4, in that he tried to push a case of persecution and realized that he didn't give any signs of actually showing the other side.

Kaga has always taken things he has already created and realized ways to improve it.

Take Gharnef. He was just an evil wizard. Then he took the evil wizard and make a dark cult, thus the Duma Faithful in FE2. Then he decided to take some chances to improve FE1 by making a sequel/remake. After that, he decided to go improve further by FE4 by showing how there is an existence of the other side much more in the dark cult, and how they have a reason for why they do what they do.

But FE4 only tells, not shows. So for TRS, he decided to give a case of a show by having Zeig and Karla, one character that is very sympathetic to his relationship with Kate, and then Karla, who had Shigen, as well as the soft tone at the last stage where we understand. 

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The justification of the Lopt sect having suffered terribly because of persecution has one pretty big flaw in it. Alvis already fixed that problem for them and they still went out of their way to stab their savior in the back, ruin his life and subjugate the entire world. Its not like Alvis' world of peace wasn't coming along or that he turned on the Lopt first. The narration and Lewyn both suggest that Alvis succeeded in building his perfect world free of persecution and that the Lopt still couldn't resist their old urges. 

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49 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The justification of the Lopt sect having suffered terribly because of persecution has one pretty big flaw in it. Alvis already fixed that problem for them and they still went out of their way to stab their savior in the back, ruin his life and subjugate the entire world. Its not like Alvis' world of peace wasn't coming along or that he turned on the Lopt first. The narration and Lewyn both suggest that Alvis succeeded in building his perfect world free of persecution and that the Lopt still couldn't resist their old urges. 

The most likely answer is because that would mean admitting that Arvis is a true hero, who got into his position through dirty methods, using underhanded tactics and such. It's trying to go with the idea that you must attain your position through honest means and not try to backstab people. 

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11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The most likely answer is because that would mean admitting that Arvis is a true hero, who got into his position through dirty methods, using underhanded tactics and such. It's trying to go with the idea that you must attain your position through honest means and not try to backstab people. 

Though that's kind of a wrong way to send the message. Arvis isn't  brought down by the victims of his backstabbing but by the people he saved and didn't stab in the back. Because Arvis life work gets undone by the very people he saved the message suddenly becomes that some people deserve to get oppressed and that they'll just be a danger to the world the very moment that oppression ends. That's not a good message. 

I mean, in the end its Seliph wiping out the entire cult and not Arvis reaching out to them that ultimately solves the conflict. 

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21 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Though that's kind of a wrong way to send the message. Arvis isn't  brought down by the victims of his backstabbing but by the people he saved and didn't stab in the back. Because Arvis life work gets undone by the very people he saved the message suddenly becomes that some people deserve to get oppressed and that they'll just be a danger to the world the very moment that oppression ends. That's not a good message. 

I mean, in the end its Seliph wiping out the entire cult and not Arvis reaching out to them that ultimately solves the conflict. 

Arvis being a puppet of Manfroy is one thing, but the one that takes him out of power and destroys his dream is his son, the son he had with Deirdre, his sister, who he basically stole from another man. 

So incest is wrong, kids. And NTR. You might end up creating an anti-Christ. Also, don't have a mother complex. That's bad. Actually... Arvis loving Deirdre cause she resembles his mother and absolutely hates his father. Oh my god, Arvis has an Oedipus complex. 

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Please remember to keep this topic to the manga. Comparisons are fine, but it's getting too off topic toward just the game (and it's a chunk of posts in a row). Thanks.

I've bought a mouse for the laptop so hopefully it comes in soon and I can start cleaning again. I've sent some chapters off to other cleaners in the meantime, so previews for volume twelve and onward will pop in when I can do that.

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