MU modifier

[GoXDS]

Luck only provides half the crit evasion in Fates.

So 17 Luck would only give you 8.5(8 when rounded down) Ddg. In fact, you'd need 34 Luck to completely avoid getting crit by Ryoma in a 1-on-1 fight under these conditions without any other bonuses.

that would make little since it would make Luc lopsidedly weak compared to Skl and it would mean a non-0 %Crit would be all too common

confirming using test case:

Berserker with 18 Skl, 5 Luc, and Silver Axe vs Belka with14 Skl, 10 Luc, and Iron Axe

Berserker has 18/2-2+20-10 = 17. battle forecast agrees with 17%

Belka has 14/2-2-5+5 = 5. battle forecast says 5%

check out omegavolution's IK Ch 13 40:04 on youtube

not sure why the char stats have weird crit values though. Belka's crit is correct at 5 though Berserker says 17. even if the class bonus is excluded, that's 10 more than it should have

also Subaki (20 Skl, 12 Luc, Iron Naginata) vs Berserker

Subaki is 20/2-2-5+5 = 8 and forecast says 8

Berserker has 18/2-2+20-12 = 15 but forecast says 16?

Edited August 25, 2015 by GoXDS

[PlayGaiden.EXE]

Wait, really? Only half?

Yup.

Questionable nerf, but that's how it is.

[astrophys]

Here's the link to what GoXDS cites:

https://youtu.be/axoy0UNftZY?t=40m5s

You seem to be mistaken, ItzMeMario. Perhaps you were misinformed. The numbers work perfectly as GoXDS calculates, a calculation that obeys the 1 luck = 1 dodge rule.

[GoXDS]

well now I'm confused since Kaze (17 Skl, Iron Shuriken) vs 5 Luc Archer has 17/2-2-5 = 1.5 yet forecast says 4, along with Subaki above.

so maybe Luc is half a dodge, but the Crit formula has something else added that wasn't in it before

EDIT: let's try this again at higher stats

Kamui (34 Skl, 24 Luc, Yato-Nohr) vs Berserker (29 Skl, 6 Luc, Silver Axe)

Kamui has 34/2-2+5+10(Yato)-6 = 24. forecast says 25??

Berserker has 29/2-2+20-24-10(Yato) = -1.5 -> 0. forecast says 0

if Luc was -0.5 Crit, 29/2-2+20-12-10(Yato) = 10.5

Xander (31 Skl, 35 Luc, Seigfried) vs Sorcerer (23 Skl, 7 Luc, Rainarok)

Xander has 31/2-2+5(Seigfried)+5(Rainarok)-5(Sorc)-7 = 11.5, forecast says 15?? if Luc was 0.5 Crit, then it works

Sorc has 23/2-2+10-35 = -15.5. is Luc = 0.5 Crit, %Crit = 2

Ophelia (20 Skl, 31 Luc, Missiletainn) vs Trueblade (20 Luc, Silver Katana)

Ophelia has 20/2-2+10(Missiletainn)+5(Silver Katana)-20+10(Sorc)+10(Ophelia's personal) = 23. forecast says 33. if Luc = 0.5 Crit, then it works

so...inconclusive. it's weird

Edited August 25, 2015 by GoXDS

[Featherwick]

I'm thinking of going +Hp/-Def, for growths they basically balance each other out, so you get at base, 60/45/30/40/45/40/30/25, which with Nohr Prince gives 75/60/40/50/55/50/40/30. This gives you one of the best Hp and Defense growths on Hoshido. Silas has 10 more defense growth, but 25 less HP growth. Rinkah gets 25 more defense growth, but 35 less HP growth, and not to mention her other stats.

It also only gives you -1 defense at the start which isn't really that hurtful when you get 3 free HP, which at base, puts you equal with Silas, close to Felicia and Joker when they join in CH 16, and most of Hoshido's cast and most have more a lot of levels on you and worse HP growth.

It's not as useful on Nohr it seems though, since you have more tanky characters on Nohr than you do on Hoshido, so something like +Spd/-Luck would probably be more useful.

[PlayGaiden.EXE]

Here's the link to what GoXDS cites:

https://youtu.be/axoy0UNftZY?t=40m5s

You seem to be mistaken, ItzMeMario. Perhaps you were misinformed. The numbers work perfectly as GoXDS calculates, a calculation that obeys the 1 luck = 1 dodge rule.

Weird, I've come to trust otherwise. Even played a skirmish to double-check my theory.

Lemme do a rundown of what I'm seeing in this video...

Sooo... Belka has 10 Luck. Say we go with my theory. She'd get 5 Ddg from her Luck stat.

Belka is also paired up. Guard Stance does provide 5 Ddg by default.

So Belka has 10 dodge as of right now.

She's now facing a 17 crit stat from the Berserker, according to what it says on top.

But here's the twist. As you can see, the Berserker has the skill Roundhouse. That's his second skill, after HP +5.

That gives him an extra 10 crit, at the cost of -10 hit. Now, skill bonuses aren't factored in the crit stat at the top (unless they increase your stats at the bottom left, and you'd notice the increase).

So the Berserker actually has 27 crit.

Enemy 27 crit - Belka's 10 dodge = 17% chance to crit, as shown in the battle forecast.

-----

Now for another example, let's go to calculate Belka's crit rate against that same Berserker.

She has 5 crit according to the stats on top.

She has 14 skill. Divide that by 2 (7), and subtract 2.

There's Belka's 5 crit.

The Berserker has 5 luck. He'd have 2 dodge thanks to that, after rounding down.

However, we have two additional factors to add:

For one, Berserkers, while they get a massive built-in +20 crit bonus, suffer from a built-in -5 dodge.

Proof here: http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/nohrian-classes/base-stats/

For two... Enemy units also only get half of the built-in bonuses of playable units.

We said Berserkers usually have a 20 crit bonus. Well... convert that into 10 if said Berserker is an enemy, which is the case here.

Same thing for that dodge penalty, weirdly enough. It turns into -2 dodge instead after rounding down (That's the only good thing for a Berserker being an enemy, lol).

Therefore, the enemy Berserker is back to 0 dodge.

Belka's 5 crit - Enemy's 0 dodge = 5% chance to crit, as shown in the battle forecast as well.

While I don't have a direct way to show how the enemy only takes account of half the built-in bonuses we get (as I can't capture my 3DS or provide a reliable source), among potentially other things... It wouldn't make sense that this enemy Berserker only has 17 crit, when they get a +20 crit bonus from their class. As far as I remember, I've seen nothing reduce a crit chance shown at the top to a value that's not zero (by equipping a weapon that cannot crit for example, such as a Bronze Axe), unless I'm missing a detail somewhere along the lines. Especially when a built-in crit bonus is taken into account...

Edited August 25, 2015 by ItzMeeMario

[astrophys]

Interesting…. maybe you could be right… although it would seem weird that the enemy inherent bonuses would be treated differently than the players….

[GoXDS]

yea, forgot about Guard's innate dodge and didn't see the Roundhouse. the halved enemy class bonuses is weird and news to me... that fixes all the inconsistencies I was seeing everywhere.

with that I'd probably favor /-Luc mod even more since each pt of Luc is worth even less than expected

Edited August 25, 2015 by GoXDS

[PlayGaiden.EXE]

although it would seem weird that the enemy inherent bonuses would be treated differently than the players….

the halved enemy class bonuses is weird and news to me... that fixes all the inconsistencies I was seeing everywhere.

I'd see it be a way to not make chances of survival too RNG-reliant. That is, seeing many high crit chances from enemies getting those built-in bonuses.

Especially when you're taking into account that Luck only gives half the crit avoid you'd normally get in previous games...

...FE6 Swordmasters/Berserkers, anyone? Remember those times?

Edited August 25, 2015 by ItzMeeMario

[Shadow Mir]

Luck only gives half the crit avoid you'd normally get in previous games...

What?!? Seriously? If this is true, then Arthur's even more of a liability than I thought he'd be. Dammit!

Edited August 25, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[astrophys]

So basically, with regards to LUCK and modifiers, we could look at it from a few different and opposing perspectives:

a.) Luck is even less valuable now and is thus more desirable as a flaw as it isn't giving up as much.

OR

b.) You need even more luck now in order to negate crit chances, so you might want to not lower it further with a flaw. Then you might actually stand a chance of negating crits.

[Shadow Mir]

So basically, with regards to LUCK and modifiers, we could look at it from a few different and opposing perspectives:

a.) Luck is even less valuable now and is thus more desirable as a flaw as it isn't giving up as much.

OR

b.) You need even more luck now in order to negate crit chances, so you might want to not lower it further with a flaw. Then you might actually stand a chance of negating crits.

Needless to say, my outlook is the second one.

[astrophys]

Of course, the difference between a luck flaw and a neutral luck is -3 at caps (-2 for -lck vs. -def)… so that's 1.5 dodge (or 1 dodge). But the key thing to remember, of course, is that most of the game is not played at caps but with growths….

-LCK assesses a -20% growth rate penalty (-DEF is -5%). And there's also the -2 starting penalty….

So starting from 1/0 and leveling up to 20/20 (we can Eternal Seal, but let's ignore those), -LCK costs us 9.6 LCK by that time…. so that costs us 4.8 dodge. (It also costs us -1.9 STR and -1.9 MAG peripherally).

-DEF costs us 1.9 Lck, so 0.95 Dodge (3.85 dodge advantage over -LCK), but penalizes us by 4.8 DEF (on average by 20/20) and 1.9 RES…. but in exchange we also get to have 1.9 STR and 1.9 MAG more on average.

[Shadow Mir]

Of course, the difference between a luck flaw and a neutral luck is -3 at caps (-2 for -lck vs. -def)… so that's 1.5 dodge (or 1 dodge). But the key thing to remember, of course, is that most of the game is not played at caps but with growths….

-LCK assesses a -20% growth rate penalty (-DEF is -5%). And there's also the -2 starting penalty….

So starting from 1/0 and leveling up to 20/20 (we can Eternal Seal, but let's ignore those), -LCK costs us 9.6 LCK by that time…. so that costs us 4.8 dodge. (It also costs us -1.9 STR and -1.9 MAG peripherally).

-DEF costs us 1.9 Lck, so 0.95 Dodge (3.85 dodge advantage over -LCK), but penalizes us by 4.8 DEF (on average by 20/20) and 1.9 RES…. but in exchange we also get to have 1.9 STR and 1.9 MAG more on average.

Of course. Knowing this, I still think -SKL is the way to go.

[astrophys]

-SKL… that's a 20% penalty to SKL growth (and -2 to starting values), so that's a -9.6 skill by the time of reaching 20/20….

So that's basically -14.4 hit, -4.8 crit, -9.6% (subtractive) to most skill activation rates (in practice, you'd only have skills in the 20s or 30s otherwise, so you're going to the 10s or 20s instead), -14.4 to Breaking Sky/Vengeance activation, and -7.2 to Dragon's Fang.

This is fine if you develop a build that doesn't depend on procs (who knows; you could even do something like +MAG/-SKL magic weapon abuse, as the inability to abuse skill doesn't matter as much if you have trouble reliably activating them in the first place). But people who like any form of procs (offensive, or even the defensive Aegis/Pavise) would probably stray away from it.

You also get -1.9 STR and -1.9 DEF.

The hit rate penalty could be pretty severe… you'd likely want Raven Strike, Flamboyant, Bind, or some other accuracy boosting skill to make up for it.

[BurningCandy]

I usually go +Luck -Res, since they compliment eachother well.

[astrophys]

That's:

+2 Str, +1 MAG, -1 SPD, +4 LCK, -3 RES

+5% Str growth, -5% SPD growth, +25% luck growth, -10% RES growth

+3 starting luck, -1 starting RES

What about your -SPD mod/growth?

[Eriotto]

Well nice thinking there but still i'm confused which is safest way, i think there isn't, everyone plays how they want and probably later on there aren't any bad build if you're going to hit the cap after all.
Well we can try to neutralize mods to the lowest -% growths so later on we'll hit cap with a little of luck.
I'll think that is best for me or rather try few builds with mods and decide which is best for me. : P

[Shadow Mir]

-SKL… that's a 20% penalty to SKL growth (and -2 to starting values), so that's a -9.6 skill by the time of reaching 20/20….

So that's basically -14.4 hit, -4.8 crit, -9.6% (subtractive) to most skill activation rates (in practice, you'd only have skills in the 20s or 30s otherwise, so you're going to the 10s or 20s instead), -14.4 to Breaking Sky/Vengeance activation, and -7.2 to Dragon's Fang.

This is fine if you develop a build that doesn't depend on procs (who knows; you could even do something like +MAG/-SKL magic weapon abuse, as the inability to abuse skill doesn't matter as much if you have trouble reliably activating them in the first place). But people who like any form of procs (offensive, or even the defensive Aegis/Pavise) would probably stray away from it.

You also get -1.9 STR and -1.9 DEF.

The hit rate penalty could be pretty severe… you'd likely want Raven Strike, Flamboyant, Bind, or some other accuracy boosting skill to make up for it.

Ehhh, the penalty to Str and Def hurts, but it's more along the cases of "-Skl is the only real decision since it comes down to one of two things: the other stats are too important to consign to being a flaw, and/or making said stat a flaw is shooting yourself in the foot big time".

Edited August 25, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Psyruby]

What?!? Seriously? If this is true, then Arthur's even more of a liability than I thought he'd be. Dammit!

In all seriousness, he is actually less of a liability. Arthur has a 5% Luck Growth, starts at 1 Lck. So... using him in the Fighter -> Berserker class would result in 3 Luck overall anyway. This is a difference of 1.5% Crit Evade.Most characters have 15% less Crit Evade. Now yes, I know you will never use Arthur in the first place, but I do feel this needs to be pointed out.

Also, this makes Arthur damn near TERRIFYING in PvP. He'll have a 90% Crit rate on most characters who aren't paired, and even characters who specifically try to get more crit evade, will only get it down to 40% at most.

EDIT: I just realized that Berserkers and Arthur's ability give -5% to Crit Evade, which means in both cases, Arthur had 0% Crit Evade. So Arthur lost no crit evade, making him exactly the same and everyone else worse off.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Psyruby

[Featherwick]

Well nice thinking there but still i'm confused which is safest way, i think there isn't, everyone plays how they want and probably later on there aren't any bad build if you're going to hit the cap after all.

Well we can try to neutralize mods to the lowest -% growths so later on we'll hit cap with a little of luck.

I'll think that is best for me or rather try few builds with mods and decide which is best for me. : P

From what I've done, it's definitely +HP/-Def. This gives only -5 to your defense growth, and that is it. It also gives you one less defense at the start, but 3 more HP, so it more than balances out.

[Eriotto]

From what I've done, it's definitely +HP/-Def. This gives only -5 to your defense growth, and that is it. It also gives you one less defense at the start, but 3 more HP, so it more than balances out.

-5 luck also so it gives us 40 luck and 30 def.

I mean with ethernal seal or two we'll be able to max stats anyway, it's one of the most balanced if i can say it like that build.

I don't know if in the end -1 def will turn for us for that 3 hp, we'll see when game will come out.

[Shadow Mir]

In all seriousness, he is actually less of a liability. Arthur has a 5% Luck Growth, starts at 1 Lck. So... using him in the Fighter -> Berserker class would result in 3 Luck overall anyway. This is a difference of 1.5% Crit Evade.Most characters have 15% less Crit Evade. Now yes, I know you will never use Arthur in the first place, but I do feel this needs to be pointed out.

Also, this makes Arthur damn near TERRIFYING in PvP. He'll have a 90% Crit rate on most characters who aren't paired, and even characters who specifically try to get more crit evade, will only get it down to 40% at most.

EDIT: I just realized that Berserkers and Arthur's ability give -5% to Crit Evade, which means in both cases, Arthur had 0% Crit Evade. So Arthur lost no crit evade, making him exactly the same and everyone else worse off.

Well, someone in another thread did suggest giving him all the goddess icons to try to get around that (naturally, I countered by asking how many goddess icons there are in the game). If that crit evade formula is confirmed... Then that makes no difference at all, which is what I was getting at. And of course, it makes Berserkers even more unappealing as a class than I originally thought.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[Psyruby]

Well, someone in another thread did suggest giving him all the goddess icons to try to get around that (naturally, I countered by asking how many goddess icons there are in the game). If that crit evade formula is confirmed... Then that makes no difference at all, which is what I was getting at. And of course, it makes Berserkers even more unappealing as a class than they already were.

I mean... once again, if you are looking at the difference between the two, it technically makes Berserkers more appealing. They lose 12.5% Crit Evade, but everyone else loses 15% Crit Evade. Like it's just a fact, this change favors Berserkers overall. Luck is worth less overall, and therefore any unit who specialized in having more luck, invested in a stat that was worth less than it used to be.

Meanwhile, the Berserker which specialized in criticals, now crits 45%+(instead of 30%+) of the time with a Killing Axe. This is very appealing especially with Fighter having the Brave Hero branch and massive HP. As you could technically take a critical hit, survive due to your high HP, then heal it off with your own Crit that activates Sol.Yes, this is cherry picking a good situation, but it's still better than getting crit anyway and dying to low HP or no way to survive the next hit.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Psyruby

[Shadow Mir]

I mean... once again, if you are looking at the difference between the two, it technically makes Berserkers more appealing. They lose 12.5% Crit Evade, but everyone else loses 15% Crit Evade. Like it's just a fact, this change favors Berserkers overall. Luck is worth less overall, and therefore any unit who specialized in having more luck, invested in a stat that was worth less than it used to be.

Meanwhile, the Berserker which specialized in criticals, now crits 45%+(instead of 30%+) of the time with a Killing Axe. This is very appealing especially with Fighter having the Brave Hero branch and massive HP. As you could technically take a critical hit, survive due to your high HP, then heal it off with your own Crit that activates Sol.Yes, this is cherry picking a good situation, but it's still better than getting crit anyway and dying to low HP or no way to survive the next hit.

Moe like they lose 17.5, after factoring in that -5 dodge penalty (assuming the math is correct). And yeah, they're more appealing... that is, if you don't mind having to fear crits damn near all the time.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Levant Colthearts