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kantoorfarina

Lowen.

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lol guys

if i have lowen and marcus both deployed on a map and assuming i had the turns to blow to build a support, of course i'd want them to support. first of all, they match movement. second of all, if i didn't support lowen and marcus, that would mean that both of them have at least 2 other better support partners whom i'm also deploying. this would basically just be eliwood - lowen has rebecca at the beginning of the game (but rebecca blows) and they don't support anyone else until isadora. lastly, a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is still better than a C support between 2 matching affinities.

to summarize

support is support

Really? Kent is the most RNG proof of the cavaliers,

kent is not RNG proof. kent is probably the least RNG proof of the cavaliers because his str and spd growths are closest to 50% and therefore have the highest variance.

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lol guys

if i have lowen and marcus both deployed on a map and assuming i had the turns to blow to build a support, of course i'd want them to support. first of all, they match movement. second of all, if i didn't support lowen and marcus, that would mean that both of them have at least 2 other better support partners whom i'm also deploying. this would basically just be eliwood - lowen has rebecca at the beginning of the game (but rebecca blows) and they don't support anyone else until isadora. lastly, a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is still better than a C support between 2 matching affinities.

to summarize

support is support

When I have only 5 supports to work with, spending two of them on mismatching affinities doesn't sound like a good use of them to me, even if they match movement.

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I never had Lowen develop any support with Marcus because Lowen being the other high movement guy in the earlygame meant he had other business to attend to besides standing right next to Marcus (who's obviously the main frontliner and bosskiller for a while). Just saying.

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When I have only 5 supports to work with, spending two of them on mismatching affinities doesn't sound like a good use of them to me, even if they match movement.

Would you rather no support at all?

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Would you rather no support at all?

Maybe, maybe not. But by dondon's logic, shit like Mist/Rolf is better than something like Mist/Titania. Needless to say, I can't buy that.

Edited by Levant Colthearts

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kent is not RNG proof. kent is probably the least RNG proof of the cavaliers because his str and spd growths are closest to 50% and therefore have the highest variance.

Maybe not RNG proof, but less screwable. He has middling offensive growths, so they'll at least be fairly consistent, unlike Lowen, who will be having a much harder time hitting strength and speed in the same level.

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Maybe, maybe not. But by dondon's logic, shit like Mist/Rolf is better than something like Mist/Titania. Needless to say, I can't buy that.

did you even read my post

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Umm, what?

Marcus and Lowen are upper tier units who share movement & role. There is no reason why these two wouldn't be making the same-ish moves that others would. A C or B support only makes them better, and isn't incredibly inconvenient to the player. Supporting Lowen and Rebecca means that for like 18 chapters, you are restricting Lowen to 5 movement so he can keep up with Becca, which is inefficient by any logical interpretation.

What you are supporting is like, Wallace and Vaida supports, both two units that have no business being near each other for more than maybe 5 turna, assuming both are fielded every chapter after you recruit them.

Marcus and Lowen is convenient, so a mismatched support that still gives 2 crit, 2 CEV, 2 accuracy etc is better than nothing, when Lowen and Marcus are only supporting units that are convenient with each other until Isa

Mist has staff utility which has her fulfilling duties elsewhere.

Edited by Elieson

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did you even read my post

I did. The problem is, matching movement alone isn't enough for me to determine whether a support is good or not. And you failed to expound upon the whole thing about "a B support between two mismatched affinities is better than a C support between two matching affinities", and of course, I couldn't let that one go.

Edited by Levant Colthearts

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I did. The problem is, matching movement alone isn't enough for me to determine whether a support is good or not. And you failed to expound upon the whole thing about "a B support between two mismatched affinities is better than a C support between two matching affinities", and of course, I couldn't let that one go.

It determines whether or not a support is logical though.

Like I'll admit I've done stupid supports that are in no way possible in regular gameplay for the lols, but Lowen/Marcus is actually possible to do without wasting time. Small bonuses are better then none at all.

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I did. The problem is, matching movement alone isn't enough for me to determine whether a support is good or not. And you failed to expound upon the whole thing about "a B support between two mismatched affinities is better than a C support between two matching affinities", and of course, I couldn't let that one go.

so you didn't read my post. you ignored the huge sentence (actually, the longest sentence in the paragraph) about how marcus and lowen do not have 2 good alternative support partners until isadora joins in chapter 22 (and isadora is pretty mediocre). if marcus and lowen do not have at least 2 good alternative support partners, then there is zero drawback to them getting at least a B support.

additionally, a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is unequivocally better than a C support between 2 matched affinities. this is obvious. a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is congruent to 2 C supports between matched affinities.

Edited by dondon151

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Lowen also only has a 4 chapter lead over Kent, and assuming Lyn Mode

1. Most arguments in this thread have assumed no Lyn Mode. Sain/Kent are better with LM included.

2. Lowen has a five chapter lead on both modes and he's doing more in Ch.15/16.

additionally, a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is unequivocally better than a C support between 2 matched affinities.

Also a +3 support with 20 innate points. Marcus/Lowen is one of the better supports for reasons dondon has outlined.

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so you didn't read my post. you ignored the huge sentence (actually, the longest sentence in the paragraph) about how marcus and lowen do not have 2 good alternative support partners until isadora joins in chapter 22 (and isadora is pretty mediocre). if marcus and lowen do not have at least 2 good alternative support partners, then there is zero drawback to them getting at least a B support.

additionally, a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is unequivocally better than a C support between 2 matched affinities. this is obvious. a B support between 2 mismatched affinities is congruent to 2 C supports between matched affinities.

I ignored it because I didn't have anything to say about it, and if I don't have anything to say about it, it's likely that I agree.

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Levant

A B support between say, Fire and Ice, gives equal or greater than bonuses compared to a C between Fire/Fire or Ice/Ice

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All this arguing over Lowen/Marcus when even a B between them probably changes nothing. Support is support, I guess.

However, since I dislike the "X is bad because Y exists" argument, (except in relation to Luna tome and all other dark tomes,) I'll ignore the existence of the other cavs for now.

I typically dislike that argument, too, but it matters to an extent in this game because of class-specific promotion items.

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1. Most arguments in this thread have assumed no Lyn Mode. Sain/Kent are better with LM included.

2. Lowen has a five chapter lead on both modes and he's doing more in Ch.15/16.

1. The specific post I was responding to claimed that Lowen was equal to or better than Kent assuming Lyn Mode and Sainadin.

2. On HNM, which OP said he was doing, you get Lowen in C12 and Kent is available at the beginning of C16. Therefore, 4 chapter lead.

I typically dislike that argument, too, but it matters to an extent in this game because of class-specific promotion items.

HNM is forgiving enough that you can use who you like with little to no consequence, so assuming that Lowen is being used because of personal preference, using 2 cavs or one cav and Oswin is fine. IIRC, the third Knight Crest comes in C26, and a unit that promotes in that chapter still stands a decent chance of catching up.

EDIT: Ah, sorry, forgot about 13x. You're right, Lowen does have a 5 chapter lead, my bad.

Edited by PanneKnight

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On HNM, which OP said he was doing, you get Lowen in C12 and Kent is available at the beginning of C16. Therefore, 4 chapter lead.

12, 13, 13x, 14, 15.

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I can think of one - 30% Strength AND Speed growths. I mean, I'd use him for earlygame, but after Kent and Sain join? Have a seat. On the bench.

How about the fact that Lowen, being a higher level than than Kent and Sain (unless you promote one in Lyn's Mode), will similar or higher stats across the board? I'm looking at my recording of Chapter 16 on Youtube, and halfway through it he hit level 9. Surely a level 9 Lowen is comparable to base Kent/Sain or unpromoted Lyn's Mode Kent/Sain in Chapter 16.

For the purposes of ranking, I would say Lowen is very good even in comparison to Kent and Sain thanks to being around for difficult chapters where few can get beaten up, not expecting a promotion and therefore being used to wall and chip damage mid game, and never being a liability of any kind. He's got a worse lategame, but late game is (IMO) far simpler than early to mid.

Really, picking out two of his growths that translate into a weaker late game does not justify not using him early to mid game, which is what I highlighted.

Edited by Brinzy

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How about the fact that Lowen, being a higher level than than Kent and Sain (unless you promote one in Lyn's Mode), will similar or higher stats across the board? I'm looking at my recording of Chapter 16 on Youtube, and halfway through it he hit level 9. Surely a level 9 Lowen is comparable to base Kent/Sain or unpromoted Lyn's Mode Kent/Sain in Chapter 16.

For the purposes of ranking, I would say Lowen is very good even in comparison to Kent and Sain thanks to being around for difficult chapters where few can get beaten up, not expecting a promotion and therefore being used to wall and chip damage mid game, and never being a liability of any kind. He's got a worse lategame, but late game is (IMO) far simpler than early to mid.

Really, picking out two of his growths that translate into a weaker late game does not justify not using him early to mid game, which is what I highlighted.

I'm more curious than anything else: how would a Kent or Sain at say, level 10 compare to Lowen?

Ranks are not my forte, because some of them are out-and-out contradictory. That being said, I agree that lategame is easier than early to midgame.

I agree with that to an extent. However, I never could've been bothered to use Lowen after the choice fell in my hands as to who I want to use and not.

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Another positive about Lowen that one might bring up (although this is not relevant to regular play) is that in most LTCs/challenge runs, you are likely to rig str/Spd procs for your units anyway, so not only do Lowen's great bases help him, but his great growths in HP and Def/Res ensure that he'll be procing a good bit more than someone like Sain might.

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Base HHM Kent and Sain can't get that much EXP in 16 due to where they are on the map, so being very generous, one of them can get a level if favoured over the other. 17 at most is going to get them 1.5 levels unless you go very slowly (bad idea, you'll miss out on loot), 17x they won't be strong enough to actually fight the dangerous enemies in the middle, and are less reliably fed kills through a choke if you bait the enemies than other candidates like your magic users. Low deployment on this map doesn't really allow for that much flexability either. They're somewhat of a liability in 18 since they don't really hit that hard and aren't that durable in a map where you'e being swarmed by relatively fast hard hitting enemies. They both have to wait until 19 to get a map that really allows them to get a substantial amount of kills easily, and then 19x (if you choose not to go very fast) and 19xx (if you go there) also work, 20 they can get some kills but not really be frontrunners. 21 is kinda sparse on enemies but there is an easy to access arena, 22 is also alright, 23 is a wash and so is 23x. Roughly speaking, considering their stats, without Lyn mode it takes until like Chapter 24 or 25 before they're not just self improving or doing random rescuedropping rather than frontlining, which is something Lowen is more than capable of doing after his early maps and a promotion.

I really don't think there is any argument for not training Lowen in the early chapters and quickly promoting him in any casual fresh HHM run, since after promotion he's effectively a more mobile and flexible Oswin who doesn't hit as hard, and will tank the shit out of enemy phases in the most intensive spots of the game. The fact he misses ORKOs can be leveraged to your advantage to feed kills to units who you want to use long term, and Sain and Kent cannot possibly promote with the first Knight Crest as quickly as Lowen can (frankly, they'd probably like the extra levels of unpromoted growth to become competant lategame units anyway). They should be promoting around the time you get the second Crest, so there's really no loss unless you want to use them both or want to promote Oswin or something. The fact a unit is likely going to hit the bench at some point doesn't mean you shouldn't maximise their usefulness and potential if they're useful for over half the game. Lategame is soooo overrated.

Edited by Irysa

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Hm, so now that I'm doing my HNM run, he was...

Well, he was useful until I got Sain and Kent. I might leave him behind simply because there's only 3 Knight Crests (if there's a fourth, it comes really late and I don't remember it) and I want Oswin. It's either him or Kent for my HHM.

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If you play LHM before, you can promote Kent or Sain. Then you still have three Knight Crest for HHM. You can just rush LHM if you want, rank isn't important, you probably just want the White Gem, but even that isn't most important if you really want that extra promotion.

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Did I post in this thread? I don't think so. On my current playthrough I decided to go with him instead of Sain or Kent and he's a decent unit, but he doesn't have many strengths I feel, other than a bit above average defense and high HP. Sain has great power and Kent has great speed/skill meaning he hits easily and doubles most enemies. Sain and Kent also have the added bonus of being able to be levelled in Lyn's mode. I think Lowen's good but he doesn't really compare to Sain or Kent.

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